I made it through the complicated install process, now looking at "my" new wiki for the first time, and now I am overwhelmed by the amount of existing content presented to me. It is quite apparent these default webs have been created to show off the wide variety of uses for a twiki, however I think this more confusing than it is useful.

A lot of learning is required to find out how to get rid of these webs, and as a first time user I was not sure if it was safe to remote them. When logging on the first time onto my web, the first thing I'd rather learn would be to create my own content rather than messing around with a massive existing amount of information.

The developers' pride and enthusiasm about their product clearly shines through! You are right to be proud of your creation but I suggest you do the product showcase wherever else, but not as the main web of a new install.

Suggestion: - Do not install all the demo webs by default, or - provide clear instructions how to disable them in the install docs, or - install them hidden (not included in the navigation bars)

Ideally, I'd want a clear web as the default or main web, and the current main web with all the docs and help files as an "admin" web. Note that I am writing this after using my wiki for more than a month

-- MartinKuhne - 05 Nov 2002

A Recipe

1. download latest TWikiAlphaRelease
2. edit lib/TWiki.cfg and point everything web to Main (or whatever); create that directory
3. Create the % HOMETOPIC% (by going to http://mytwiki/bin/view )
4. Create % TWIKIPREFERENCES% topic and populate it only with the variables you actually want (e.g. SKIN = plain)

At this point you have a working twiki. There are few more things to make things a little more complete:

1. Create the essential topics (list may not be exhaustive): % HOMETOPIC%,% NOTIFYTOPIC%, % WIKIUSERSTOPIC%, % WIKIPREFSTOPIC%, % WEBPREFSTOPIC%, % STATISTICSTOPIC%, TextFormattingRules, GoodStyle. (Use ?raw=on to crib from an existing twiki site, e.g. http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/TWiki/TWikiPreferences?raw=on)
2. Create the directory data/Trash and topics % HOMETOPIC%, TrashAttaches (so you can delete stuff).
3. Download and install lib/TWiki/Plugins DefaultPlugin and EmptyPlugin OR disable plugins in TWiki.cfg (The system will run with out them but your logs will be full of complaints.)

and that's it! Except for editing the plain skin to add things like a search form and what not.

• clean-slate-twiki.zip: example of a truly minimal operating twiki

(((By the way, if anybody is actually using this as a starting point for their wiki, beyond curious tire kicking, please say so!)))

-- MattWilkie - 19 Dec 2003, 24 Jun 2004

Older Discussion

Adding new web empty is described at TWikiInstallationGuide - guess where: "Adding a New Web".

Some users already complained that Main web should be for real pages, not for user info. See RenameMainWebToHome, HowToGetInternalBuyInForTWiki, SimplerTWikiDistribution. Looks like users do not whine enough to make this happen. Or new admin either installs TWiki somehow, or abandons the idea. I installed.

-- PeterMasiar - 05 Nov 2002

At the risk of sounding like a "me too" loser, I'm with Peter 100% on this. I think the standard distribution should include only the webs:

1. Main - for real pages
2. System - currently called TWiki
3. Sandbox - aka Test

I recognize that people have built cool forms and template pages for Know etc, but that distracts from getting a basic setup done. Make those separate webs you can download and add.

-- StewStryker - 06 Nov 2002

Me three : ) , with some changes:

1. Main - for real pages
2. System - currently called TWiki
3. Sandbox - aka Test
4. Users - registration and personal pages (includes groups)

If there was an easy to run renameweb script a lot of these issues would go away.

-- MattWilkie - 06 Nov 2002

And four... I don't feel super strong about the names but I like the four webs and their function described by MattWilkie....

-- ThomasWeigert - 07 Nov 2002

Me five. The Users web discussion I'm not so sure about, but neither pro nor contra, so either way I'm happy. But the concept is certainly right!

Hey, here's a thought: A separate User web would mean that even when you write in the Main web you'll have to remember to put User. in front -- what if TWiki could know all usernames and hyperlink them without them being web-prefixed at all? After all, usernames are pretty special; it's highly unlikely that a topic will have the same name as a username, so a global username scope wouldn't be a topicname conflict. This would be a lot more user friendly.
Please do move this thought to whatever other topic would be relevant for it, or point me to it. I don't yet know all relevant topics and don't know exactly where this properly belongs.

-- TorbenGB - 07 Nov 2002

User names are rendered as links only with User. prefix, its standard Web.PageName Twiki syntax. To do it otherwise is possible, but it's special hack. He who codes, wins!

Discussion about separating users into special web is about a year old (see also UserWeb). Core team mostly ignored this. My guess is they already trained users and do not plan to change it. Twiki already has MAINWEB variable, which might be set to User (or Users ).

UserWeb page suggests one trick (I asked better for explanation - I did not get it from the hint there).

Looks like there are two distinct communities here on Twiki now:

• old-time insiders, who installed Twiki long time ago, have tons of pages (they call pages topics), and their users are used to all Twiki quirks, and
• new recruits (like me) not hardened in old ways, with not too many pages to convert, surprised by Twiki quirks.

New recruits do not know HowToGetInternalBuyInForTWiki, they research UsabilityIdeas using TWikiAdminCookBook, ask for SimplerTWikiDistribution and SimplerDefaultTemplates, because current distro is TooUglyForNonTechnicalUsers. They ask to RenameMainWebToHome, and even worse: RenameWebToZone and trying to rename (o horrors!) topic into page, see TWikiGlossary!

So wake up, newbies: it is not going to happen! Even if somebody provides code, it is not going to be included into main trunk. This is curse of OpenSource applications: for developers, usability for non-geek users is nice, but not important.

I am struggling with usability for my users, too.

-- PeterMasiar - 07 Nov 2002

Thank you for that pithy summary Peter. All I can say is "what he said!", with one major exception: I refuse to admit defeat. I will continue to agitate for change and usability, until I too build such an accretion of pages and users that the idea of change is anathema. I figure I have about 12 to 18 months.

-- MattWilkie - 07 Nov 2002

I'd like to pick up on Martin's "lots-of-stuff" point. When you install a "clean" twiki, you get a lot of existing links and pages, for example there are twiki developers pages under the users area, and there is a lot of default content and links on the various WebHome pages. I had the same feeling as him at first - so much stuff there, and being a newbie you are terrified to delete anything since the whole setup is strange and magical and you really don't know what parts are critical. New users were frequently overwhelmed at the number of links on a WebHome page in particular. It look me a long time before I started pruning stuff out.

I can see the argument for having some pre-existing content in that it shows how things should be used, but would prefer a minimal-necessary install with good help. So for example after cleaning up my Main.WebHome page I now just have a single link on that page, which goes to the TWikiUsers page. That is the only interesting content in this web, so I don't need lots of other stuff on the home page there. The skin we use (KoalaSkin) provides most of the other links that are supplied by default on WebHome. I also changed the _default/WebHome page to have no content at all, rather than all the pre-existing links.

After a while you get to know your way around and forget about the early difficulties, so it is very important for new users to raise these issues.

-- MartinWatt - 07 Nov 2002

By now our group does not fall into the Newbie category any more, having used TWiki extensively over 2 years and lived through 2 upgrades. However, we still would like a simple default installation. Here is the reason: every time a new release comes out, which is hopefuly often, we have to go through again and remove all the things that are in the web. We need to get rid of the Know web which serves no purpose, and we have to delete all the topics like BillClinton or the topcis for some of the TWiki core team or...

This is inconvenient and makes upgrading more tedious than necessary.

-- ThomasWeigert - 07 Nov 2002

So how do we go on with this? I believe a compromise could be found were nobody loses. If the existing content would ship, for example, in a samples subdirectory, it could be easily re-added if needed. Who is the person that needs to be convinced? Who has the final say on a feature change?

-- MartinKuhne - 09 Nov 2002

Here's a simplistic approach. What if the initial installation only in basic webs we listed above in the WIKIWEBLIST variable and the TWiki Webs Table that's shown on every web homepage? The other webs might be installed, but leaving them off the main list (unless added manually) might reduce the confusion of a new setup.

-- StewStryker - 09 Nov 2002

ironically, the debian package seperated the data (in an optional .tgz) from the executables, i'm going to have to test & fix some of these bits to make your approach work too

-- SvenDowideit - 20 Dec 2003

Just wanted to add another voice to the clamour for a simpler wiki. I just installed TWiki and was overwhelmed by the amount of stuff in the default install. A simpler, cleaner, install would be very welcome.

-- MalcolmRyan - 25 Jun 2004

does anyone want to move on using the feedback on this topic to make it into a spec?

I'm guessing that Matt's cleanslate is a little too minimal for someone who still needs to read more docco - can someone give us a list of topics needed? or should we be writing a minimialistic docco topic (like the TasteOfTWiki)?

-- SvenDowideit - 27 Jun 2004

Basicly I'm using a variant of DeleteFirstProgramming, remove all the docs, and then watch for where people trip. I think the necessary clean slate twiki topics should be just summaries of the full blown twiki docs. Something like the relationship of WindowsInstallSummary to WindowsInstallCookbook, with a pointer to a) the same topic twiki.org for the full thing (pegged to a version number in case they don't upgrade), and/or b) an older revision in the local topic which contains the full text. Example:

"This page [TWikiPugins] lists plugins installed on this site. Information not necessary for day to day use has been removed. See [[TWikiPugins?rev=1.21]] for the as distributed docs on plugins, how they work, acquiring new ones, and an introduction on creating your own."

-- MattWilkie - 27 Jun 2004

Whenever I install a new TWiki for a beginner, I always:

1. Create "domain specific" web(s) appropriate to the environment.
2. Remove the Know web.
3. Change the wiki web list so that it (1) lists "domain specific" webs first, then Sandbox, then Main and TWiki and (2) lists TWiki and Main in a different colour/font, highlighting their role as "system" areas.
4. Set up TWiki permissions to deny edit access to the TWiki web for non-admin.
5. Chop out the "intranet login", "Office Location", "Department" and "Comments" entries from TWikiRegistration.

Wouldn't it be better if it was this way in the standard release?

-- CrawfordCurrie - 28 Jun 2004

I've just installed Matt's clean-slate wiki. I take it that you are a Windows user, Matt. There was quite a bit of hacking around I had to do to get it to work under Linux -- particularly to do with file permissions (almost all the files and directories were world writeable!)

-- MalcolmRyan - 05 Jul 2004