Question

I've never tackled Perl before, but I am a good html coder and can customise javascripts fine. My isp has RedHat? Linux servers all with Apache web server, the path to Perl is standard /usr/bin/perl confirmed with isp that either .pl or .cgi extension runs OK. I have uploaded all the Twiki folder and subfolders in asci format using 3D-FTP (it's like CuteFTP? but gives more detail and clearer to use).

I noted that .htaccess.txt does not appear in the uploaded twiki/bin although I additionally uploaded this individually several times and the response indicates successful upload. Don't know if this matters.

Ive changed all the permissions in twiki/bin to 755. Extra files below twiki/data already display 664. twiki/data and twiki/pub contents already display 755.

Don't understand how to put twiki/data and twiki/templates somewhere non visible so left that for now till I can get the package working. Will get back to that later as I understand the security issue.

Don't understand "nobody" ownership stuff so left it untouched. To change permissions I right click on the file and change the numbers, there's no option there to type in another owner name.

When I open twiki/lib/TWiki.cfg and change the domainURL to mine I can't Save it (when I tried it appeared to work but after exiting the file and reopening it hasn't Saved the change) But this is minor I think.

File extensions .cgi or .pl both accepted by my server so Ive not changed them. But also no file extensions are actually displayed for eg the files in twiki/bin.

Don't know what RCS is.

Have tested with http://yourdomain.com/twiki/bin/testenv ie http://www.in-her-eyes.co.uk/twiki/bin/testenv

I get 404 file not found.

-- ShanJayran - 20 Apr 2002

Answer

Shan: Richard thank you for very fast response.

Richard: You need to go through the TWikiInstallationGuide in great detail,

Shan: I've been re reading them at intervals for months. A colleague who's a professional online database designer tried to set it up for me but he couldn't get it working properly - he said it was very specialised. I think he posted here a few months ago to try to sort it out but he didn't understand the answer he got and gave up.

I studied several intro sites about Perl but they are all badly written and continually try to explain using items not yet explained. (Ive written a lot of instruction stuff myself so I know how hard it is to do well) Finally decided I wasn't going to understand any more however many more times I read it all so I'd just have to take a deep breath, make a start and when I got stuck use the posted Twiki invitation to ask for help, and just keep on pegging at it. So I did as much as I could, then asked for help.

I really would like to learn this, and I'm not stupid, just not knowledgeable in this area.

Richard: and also read the CGI tips on TWikiDebugging.

Shan: I just looked at that and can't undertand ANY of it. It's not written for ordinary site designers.

Richard: Also, spend some time reading your ISP's FAQ pages about web server setup and how to install CGI programs - you need to get the basic setup working before you can start configuring TWiki.

Shan: That's what I'm trying to do. I have to do this step by step and there's no point in trying to configure until Ive got a basic install going.

I checked my isp had Linux, Apache and Perl and that the path to Perl was standard as specified in Twiki guidelines. I changed my FTP program to asci upload.

I asked my isp various questions which were answered very clearly viz. there is no special place to upload for CGI/Perl - all my webspace is supported for them/ both .pl and .cgi are recognised/ to change permissions I should right click on files and use resulting menu to change numbers, which I did as instructed by Twiki documentation.

Richard: Most web servers don't show filenames starting with '.' for security reasons. You will need to rename .htaccess.txt and customise it, see the TWiki docs.

Shan: I can't do anything with this file direct on my server as it doesn't show up after uploading. I tried to rename it on my local computer to upload it afterwards, but that didn't work either - it won't let me cut off the .txt suffix, and replacing with .pl or .cgi isn't accepted either.

Richard: You will need to rename scripts to .pl or .cgi extensions for them to work, and you will need to install RCS, which will require Telnet or SSH access unless you are lucky with your ISP - see TWikiOnWebHostingSites for more pointers.

Shan: How can I rename scripts when the extensions are invisible due to security?

RCS doesn't look like an ordinary download - ??? how do I get it? Is it a program I'm to ask my isp to install for me or do I use it locally to do edits?

Richard: Unfortunately there is no substitute for reading the documentation on your hosting setup, your webserver, how to edit files on Linux, how to install TWiki, and so on.

Shan: Richard I am faithfully reading all these docs. But the intro description of Twiki doesn't specify it's only for industry professionals. It makes it sound as if any competent site designer can install it, and invites us to ask for help if stuck. Maybe if I can get the hang of it I could contribute some nice ultra clear instructions aimed at babies - I'm good at that.

-- RichardDonkin - 21 Apr 2002

A few comments:

• You absolutely must be able to edit and save config files - talk to your ISP.
• You must rename your files to (say) testenv.pl etc, and you must get the URL right.
• Telnet access is critical to getting TWiki working on an ISP - see TWikiOnWebHostingSites and TWikiDebugging for a workaround
• Try to find someone local who understands Linux, Perl and Apache - the test is whether they can understand TWikiDebugging. If you can't find someone like this, you will have to do a lot of reading and learning first!
• Buy a good introductory Linux book, and one about Apache configuration, including setup of Perl CGI scripts - these will save you a lot of time! Make sure they cover command line usage, not just GUIs.
• RCS will require help from your ISP if you don't have Telnet access - but then if you don't have Telnet I would be very wary about even trying to install TWiki. If you do have Telnet, you'll need GCC (a C compiler for Linux).
• Try installing Linux locally and then TWiki - Google:Mandrake+Linux is very good and includes a nice Apache setup - before trying to set it up on your ISP host (which is much more challenging)

I had a quick look at your domain - you are using Cobalt Raq Linux, not Red Hat, so you will find the setup a bit different to some other Linuxes. Unfortunately, this may cause you some issues beyond the normal TWiki on Linux webhost ones - see CobaltRaqInstall for a patch, but with luck it will just work. This just makes it more important to borrow or develop Linux skills - but the good news is that Linux is growing very fast and is a great system to learn, see the links at OpenSource

Good luck - I think that with a sufficient investment in learning Linux etc you will end up understanding a lot more about how the server side of the Web works, which is always useful.

-- RichardDonkin - 21 Apr 2002

I made these notes off-line before seeing latest comments above by RichardDonkin so there may be some overlapp.

Having recently mounted the rather steep learning curve of installing TWiki with no prior knowledge of unix, perl, etc., I recognize a lot of the problems you're running into. Let me start by saying that TWiki is probably pretty easy to install IF:

• You are working with an intranet where you have root access, versus working with a hosted domain which brings into play any number of variables and complications that can, as best, only partially be anticipated in TWiki docs.
• You already have a good working knowledge of server set-up and understand terms like "root access", chown, etc.

Neither of these conditions applied to me (or you, from the sound of it). All I can say is that it took me a LOT of trial and (mostly) error to get my TWiki site up and running (more or less). I recognize some of your problems as similar to ones I ran into. While I can't answer all your questions, I can offer a couple of suggestions for things to look at:

• You are not going to be able to do everything you need to with a browser and ftp program. For some things, you are going to have to utilize Telnet or SSH and learn some unix commands.
• As Richard said, you might as well resign yourself to getting to know your host user-manuals and support staff real well (and probably a few undocumented server idiosychroncies along the way as well).
• Regarding .htaccess being invisible, I ran into the same thing. Using SSH, this was not the case. My domain host also had a file management tool that I've used quite a bit and .htaccess files are visible in it.
• Regarding unix commands, I've tried to figure them out as I needed them (which is probably not the easiest course but none the less, that's how I work - see Active User Paradox for more on this phenomena). One of the more useful is unix command reference sources I've found is at http://www.computerhope.com/unix.htm.
• Regarding "nobody" ownership, this is another topic you will get to know real well. Scripts write to files as "nobody" so your data files need to be owned by "nobody" for TWiki to work. Normally this done using the unix command chown (which, again, requires you to use SSH or telnet). However, many domain hosters do not allow this command so you have to ask them to do it for you.

-- LynnwoodBrown - 21 Apr 2002

This is very true - TWiki can be and is confusing for newbie admins. Maybe LynnwoodBrown will volunteer to write a page about AdminSkillsRequirements?

-- PeterMasiar - 22 Apr 2002

Peter - I honestly don't know if I'm up to that task. I'm still discovering what I need to know as I run into new situations and am a long way from having any kind of overview. What might be more to the point is something along the lines of a AdminSkillsAssumptions that clarify what level of knowledge/experience the documentation is directed to. Or perhaps, there would be a standard warning/disclaimer at the beginning of any documentation. I believe I've seen you make a proposal along those lines somewhere.

Currently there's enough detailed, step by step, instructions to give the impression that it's a pretty easy process. It's not til you run into language that assumes familiarity with unix commands, for example, or run into some situation (read errors) unanticipated in the docs that the steepness to the learning curve starts to show itself.

In the mean time, its been a couple days since the original poster of this topic has added any comments. Perhaps they solved their problem or gave up...

-- LynnwoodBrown - 23 Apr 2002

I've made a first cut at the AdminSkillsAssumptions, let me know what you think. I am aiming to discourage people from attempting the installation unless they either have the skills or are willing to spend significant time learning, because it is very time consuming trying to teach OS and web server administration through this Support web. Sorry if this sounds harsh, but there are much better ways to learn these topics...

-- RichardDonkin - 27 Apr 2002