Lets talk about talking!

I think the talk pages are a great addition to TWiki, infact, I think they should be taken a step further ... lets add a talk tab to TWiki to encourage talking about all topics, an idea also borrowed from Wikipedia.

using a 4.1.2 modified version of TalkContrib template and :

• Set VIEW_TEMPLATE=SvenTalkSkinView

I have added a 'Discuss topic' button to the top actions, and the bottom action bar. In the 4.2.0 version both the topic and its Talk Topic use the same template (using the new IF{"'TalkTalk' ~ 'Talk'" then feature, whereas in 4.1.2, it currently needs a different template.

Additionally, TalkContrib (and the 4.1.2 demo on this page) allow you to configure a template topic to use to create the discussion topics (via TALKTOPICTEMPLATE and TALKTOPICFORMTEMPLATE) so you could use the same work to add tracking to a topic, or any other sideband info.

There's also a TalkTest that comes pretty close to Wikipedia.

-- Contributors: TravisBarker , SvenDowideit, MichaelDaum - 29 Mar 2008

Discussion

I'm not convinced that adding twice the amount of mess to every topic is that brilliant. But I'm willing to try anything that helps Codev go from wasteland to useful again.

I suspect that most of Codev is a discussion, so adding a talk topic to what is already a talk topic feels odd.

-- SvenDowideit - 29 Mar 2008

I think adding a talk topic tab would serve to separate an issue from an issue about an issue discussion. A sidebar if you will. If in your opinion this would be like creating discussions about discussions about discussions perhaps you are right but I'm not sure that is a bad thing. I think those discussions eventually turn into useful documentation. To me, Codev is all about developing things, and sometime we need a sidebar to talk about how we should approach approaching the issue. To me the talk tab would be a way of encouraging people to taking a step back and allowing a degree of separation between a potentially useful topic and a conversation about that topic.

-- TravisBarker - 29 Mar 2008

in most wiki's i would agree with you. But TWiki.org has a long and tragic history of topics not being refactored for years. Even worse, many things are discussed in multiple places, and then not refactored, nor are the duplicate topics deleted, adding to the massive overload of topics.

One idea this suggests to me is something that Michael D has done in some of his apps - the talk topics should not be seperate topics - they should be a view on the same topic. That way, discussions can truly be transient.

-- SvenDowideit - 29 Mar 2008

Sven, I think you are right. I don't think that Talk topics should be separate topics. I've only done it like that because there is no other way to achieve this in TWiki right now.

Maybe we should break this down into two intermediate steps:

1. - create a talk tab in pattern skin to create the illusion of MediaWiki's discussion page;
2. - implement MediaWiki's discussion page "properly" (i.e. as a separate view of the same topic).

-- MichaelCorbett - 31 Mar 2008

I think there are other ways to do this in TWiki now

TWiki has had VIEW_TEMPLATEs for quite some time, and using them to add an extra TAB, that shows & edits data that is stored in a form field, or as a META::PREFERENCE should be doable.

Most topic data interactions are possible by clever use of the tools provided by TWiki - and those that are found not to be, us Dev's will want to fix!

-- SvenDowideit - 31 Mar 2008

Well,

My first attempt uses the string comparison operator ~ in IF - a 4.2 feature - its uploaded at TalkContrib - When I figure out a 4.1.2 way, or TWiki.org is finally upgraded to 4.2 we can set VIEW_TEMPLATE=SvenTalkSkinView to use SvenTalkSkinViewTemplate.

it adds a Discuss Topic button to non-talk pages, and a Back to Topic button on talk topics to link back to its topic..

I have proposed a few extra modes that will be examined in the plugin topic.

(using a seperate Talk topic)

-- SvenDowideit - 09 Apr 2008

Let me give it a try: TalkTest using a TabViewTemplate

-- MichaelDaum - 09 Apr 2008

The reason it barfs is because I make the button automatically change depending if it is a talk topic or not - without needing extra in topic settings, and adds to the existing buttons at the top of the topic.

ooo, and if you use the SKIN you don't break ?raw=debug - which is a really bad bug in VIEW_TEMPLATE.

-- SvenDowideit - 09 Apr 2008

The TalkTest is quite close to what mediawiki does.

-- MichaelDaum - 09 Apr 2008

just not integrated into TWiki, unlike TalkContrib.

-- SvenDowideit - 09 Apr 2008

Feel free to use the TabViewTemplate in your new TalkContrib.

-- MichaelDaum - 09 Apr 2008

TalkContrib is more sophisticated than your quick example, which is a limited TWikiApp that requires the topic contains (and continues to contain) relativly fragile =STARTSECTION=s. It also does not add a Discussion Tab to any topic, it makes the tab internal to specific topics.

TalkContrib's template also works as a topic template, just not currently on 4.1.1 - specifically because I have first implemented a mode that uses seperate talk topics - to be seamlessly compatible with what has been done here on TWiki.org. I will later produce some (or all) of the modes listed - mostly as an education tool to show how many different ways this sort of application can be done.

Interestingly, you have prompted me to look into VIEW_TEMPLATE vs SKIN path, and I'm now almost convinced we should remove VIEW_TEMPLATE and EDIT_TEMPLATE as buggy and made redundant by the SkinPath.

It is worth noting that TalkContrib is implemented using one file, a single template, that adds a 'Discussion Tab' to the pattern top buttons, and to the bottom action bar.

-- SvenDowideit - 09 Apr 2008

I like this! Is there a way of signalling the Talk status on the main topic i.e. to avoid having to click on the "Discuss topic" button, followed by some active waiting, just to see if anyone has spoken recently. Maybe by hovering over the button? Or displaying the timestamp for both main and talk topics?

-- JohnFitzpatrick - 10 Apr 2008

yup - like that? (hover over gives you revinfo now)

-- SvenDowideit - 10 Apr 2008

Hey this is fun. Made TalkTest and TabViewTemplate a javascript thing for speed.

-- MichaelDaum - 11 Apr 2008

Awsome work guys! This topic is an excellent example of a simple BrainstormingIdea turned into reality in under 20 revisions. I hope the new feature gains wider adoption and lends itself to the work of refactoring TWiki.org topics into more useful documentation.

I have added the following lines to my home topic; TravisBarker: please note I have added the web descriptor "Codev." to the SvenTalkSkinView so the magic works outside of the Codev Web. I would encourage others to give this feature a try as well. I for one would like to see it implemented in "TWiki out of the box"

   * Adds Discuss Topic Tab to twiki topics
      * Set VIEW_TEMPLATE=Codev.SvenTalkSkinView

Cheers!

-- TravisBarker - 12 Apr 2008