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<DavidAllen> Good [ Morning | Afternoon | Evening ] everybody.
 Peter will be joining shortly.
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<ArthurClemens> good evening
<PeterThoeny> hi will, arthur, crawford, dave, steffen!
 minutes page at http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/WysiwygEditorMeeting2007x09x24
<CDot> (20:27:37) CDot: hi; I thought we decided to stop these meetings?
 I haven't eaten yet, and I'm rather hungry...
<PeterThoeny> did we? news to me
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<ArthurClemens> I have some work to finish, so the better if we can skip or keep it short
<PeterThoeny> hi kenneth
<DavidAllen> keep it short...
<CDot> PeterThoeny: I tried to mail back to twiki-dev but it bounced
<DavidAllen> would be best.  I'm hungry too :)
<PeterThoeny> then lets start now and keep it to 15 min
 who is facilitating? who is taking notes?
 i can facilitate
<DavidAllen> I'll take notes at http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/WysiwygEditorMeeting2007x09x24
<PeterThoeny> cool
 action item: i asked che, he agreed to test
<Lavr> Hello all
<PeterThoeny>  Status Update & Bug Review
 crawford?
<CDot> sorry, just getting some food
<PeterThoeny> ok
<CDot> nothing to say, really, excaept what is in the bug DB
<PeterThoeny> ok, while crawford is eating, any update/request/coordination item by others?
<CDot> http://develop.twiki.org/~twiki4/cgi-bin/view/Bugs/TinyMCEPlugin
<SteffenPoulsen> nope - handling tiny in the normal release meetings as cc suggested last time works ok for me also
<CDot> fwiw I think the table problems are resolveable
<ArthurClemens> "Test international character set support" - seems to work fine except for swedish
<PeterThoeny> arthur, could you elaborate?
<Lavr> Swedish is pretty much like Danish. Latin + a few extra characters.
<SteffenPoulsen> attached file urls are still rewritten from UTF-8 to iso8859, making the links work only on some browsers (those doing iso8859 urls natively) afterwards
 but it's in the minor department I think, could focus on that later on
<ArthurClemens> last week I did a small test with international characters. greek, japanese, nowegian; only swedish text did not paste correctly
 russian ok as well
<PeterThoeny> showstopper or not?
<Lavr> We need to find out why Swedish would  not work. It makes no sense.
<CDot> I have seen repeats of the problems we had pasting malformed UTF-8 characters
 may be related
<Lavr> How was the copy/paste done? Was the Swedish source material perhaps a different encoding?
<ArthurClemens> from 1 text file with all int. characters in it
<PeterThoeny> in interest of time let's find out actionable items and not go into details
 who can help debig the swedish language issue?
 "debug"
<CDot> iI really think that is low priority
 compared to other things
 specifically
 the usability of the "Styles" menu is IMHO the most important outstanding issue
 and there are bugs aroubnd the tables still
<Lavr> Yes. The PROTECTED style part. The "no style" could be fixed by a dummy "None" selection.
<CDot> can you explain PROTECTED yet?
<PeterThoeny> is this http://develop.twiki.org/~twiki4/cgi-bin/view/Bugs/Item4707 ?
<Lavr> The problem with PROTECTED Is that it is not really a style. Sven D also discussed this at some point.
<CDot> PeterThoeny: yes
<Lavr> Nothing is saved when you make something PROTECTED. It is a transistion mode that ensures that TML is saved right.
<CDot> right
<Lavr> An OK feature as such but the bundling with the two other styles make a usability problem
<CDot> sure. Suggest a better approach; even better, implement one (it's all in the TMCE config)
<ArthurClemens> Is this just a dropdown-confusion bug?
<CDot> I think so, yes
<ArthurClemens> So we need a good name and explanation
<CDot> I never really wanted the "styles" menu - I just used it because it was already there
 so just about anything else is better
 the explanation is the tough part
<ArthurClemens> when would I apply protected?
<CDot> I explained it for Kenneth.... kenneth, do you remember where?
<Lavr> Hmm. No not right now. 
<ArthurClemens> wait it is in the help
<Lavr> Oh yes. The FAQ which I used as foundation for the help
<PeterThoeny> "PROTECTED - Text is saved exactly as it is typed. Use this to save advanced TWiki Variables where you do not want the Wysiwyg editor to interpret or modify the text."
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<ArthurClemens> PROTECT ME FROM WHAT I WANT
<PeterThoeny> hi koen
<CDot> the whole concept of PRTECT has a problem, though
 because if I protect some damaged TML, it'll protect it on save
 but then the next time you edit, it'll get damaged (maybe)
<ArthurClemens> wouldn't it be nice if the tags DO get stored?
<CDot> tyou mean "save HTML" ooooh, you old radical!
 ;-)
<PeterThoeny> how about renaming it to somthing descriptive?
 "RAW TEXT"
<gmc> (hi all)
<PeterThoeny> hi koen
<CDot> that is *not* what it means
<ArthurClemens> hi
<CDot> RAW TEXT to most people means VERBATIM
 which is different
<Lavr> You cannot really tag anything round saved TML. It is in the save process you temporarily PROTECT the marked text from being turned into non TML.
<DavidAllen> I agree with Crawford on the RAW TEXT / Verbatim
<PeterThoeny> we have "raw edit" and "raw view" in the menu
<ArthurClemens> f.i. %START_WYSIWYG_PROTECT%
<CDot> yes, good point
<ArthurClemens> hmm
<PeterThoeny> if you apply terms consistently you avoid confusion
<CDot> ArthurClemens: no good. Embedded in a * Set?
<SteffenPoulsen> I like "raw text" as well, also for translations it is better to re-use the same terms
<CDot> yes, but that's only the tip of the iceberg
 we still have the problem of the semantics
 anyway, we are out of time, and I don;t have a solution
 not sure if we can action this
<Lavr> Moving it from the Styles to a button would at least enable a better mouse over text.
<CDot> oh, and I need an answer on 4656
 actually, no, it;s the same issue
<PeterThoeny> http://develop.twiki.org/~twiki4/cgi-bin/view/Bugs/Item4656
<Lavr> Not quite.
<CDot> ok, literal needs to be merged, yes?
 you are happy about that?
<Lavr> If you fix the issue of eating newlines before/after LITERAL and VERBATIM then I can use LITERAL for fixing the original issue in 4656
<DavidAllen> Timecheck -- 1PM
<PeterThoeny> time check: +30 min
<CDot> there is no way I can "fix" that - it is behaving correctly
 let us discuss offline
<PeterThoeny> ok, anything else carwford before we move over to #twiki_release?
<Lavr> no it is not behaving correct. Then you did not understand the problem
<CDot> not from me
<PeterThoeny> kenneth/crawford, please take the table issue offline
<Lavr> That has nothing to do with tables
<PeterThoeny> yello table and whatever is affected
 switching over to #twiki_release
<Lavr> You cannot use verbatim and literal tags right now. Edit save a few times and any topic with those gets goofed
<CDot> not goofed; corrected
 verbatim and literal do not lose/add to anything inside them
<Lavr> Corrected?? You cannot be serious. TRY It
<CDot> which is the spec
 *outside* the tags there is *no way* to "store" whitespace
<Lavr> Each time you save a topic usng TMCE with a verbatim tag . TMCE easts one new line before it.
<CDot> because it is HTML, and HTML treats all whitespace the same
<Lavr> If you put 3 empty lines in front and save then it eats ONE new line each time. The 4th time the verbatim jumps to the end of the previous line.
 And then the topic is goofed.
<CDot> why is it goofed?
<Lavr> Because the verbatim text ends up on the end of the last line with anything.
 If the last line was the last row of a table the table is gone.
<CDot> ok, *that* shouldn;t happen. Can you reproduce that behaviour?
<Lavr> It has to leave at least ONE newline behind
<CDot> if there is a structured TML object before the verbatim, it should not be damaged
<Lavr> It is dead easy to reproduce.
<CDot> but if there is plain text, then.... well, HTML treats newlines like spaces
 it doesn;t differentiate
 anyway, if you can generate a testcase where a table gets broken
<Lavr> But in TML an empty line should always become a new paragraph. And those are eaten too if there is a verbatim on the line after an empty line. 
<CDot> I can add it to the test suite
 but the spec of verbatim doesn't require a new para before it?
<DavidAllen> Timecheck +40 min (10 min over)
<CDot> If I write "Fred <verbatim> joe </verbatim> sam"
<Lavr> If you write ....
<CDot> then I see "Fred joe sam"
 and not
 "Fred
 joe
<Lavr> See code below
<SteffenPoulsen> it needs to be on a line for itself
<CDot> sam"
<Lavr> <verbatim>
 code lines
 </verbatim>
<CDot> no it doesn;t
<PeterThoeny> kenneth/crawford: very good discussion, could you take this offline so that we can start with the other meeting?
<CDot> <verbatim> is a tag; it can be anywhere
<Lavr> Then I should not end up with See code line <verbatim>code
<CDot> sorry, we *are* offline aren't we?
* CDot though the meeting had moved to #twiki_release
<PeterThoeny> we need your focus on#twiki_release
<SteffenPoulsen> hmm, spec was changed from cairo then .. it is possible
<CDot> ok, Kenneth, we can discuss this ater
<gmc> no we're all waiting for you two :)
<Lavr> It is only in TMCE the problem is. Has nothing to do with Cairo vs Dakar+   TMCE eats newlines in front of certain tags. That is the problem.
 THIS is important and we would just discuss as a bug item in the release meeting. Now we are done with it