[12:20] *** #twiki_editor: @PeterThoeny [12:21] *** #twiki_editor was created on Mon Sep 10 12:21:15 2007. [12:25] *** DavidAllen has joined #twiki_editor. [12:28] *** SteffenPoulsen has joined #twiki_editor. [12:29] *** ArthurClemens has joined #twiki_editor. [12:30] DavidAllen: Good morning, afternoon, or evening to everyone, thanks for joining. I'd like to wait a few more minutes for some others to join, and then we'll start. [12:31] PeterThoeny: hi dave, arthur, steffen! [12:31] *** Lavr has joined #twiki_editor. [12:32] *** carlo has joined #twiki_editor. [12:32] Lavr: Good evening / afternoon [12:32] *** CDot has joined #twiki_editor. [12:32] carlo: moin [12:32] * CDot was lurking in #twiki_wysiwyg :-/ [12:32] PeterThoeny: hi kenneth, carlo, crawford! [12:32] *** ktwilight has joined #twiki_editor. [12:32] PeterThoeny: hi kwang [12:33] ktwilight: hi peter :) [12:33] PeterThoeny: we have critical mass to start [12:33] PeterThoeny: who is faciliating, who is taking minutes? [12:33] SteffenPoulsen: 'evening all :-) - my eyes are on a situation at work, but I'll try to tag along as good as I can [12:33] DavidAllen: I will facilitate. [12:33] DavidAllen: Peter, do you want to take minutes, or should I? [12:33] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/WysiwygEditorMeeting2007x09x10 [12:34] PeterThoeny: i can take the minutes [12:34] DavidAllen: sounds good. [12:34] ArthurClemens: good evening [12:34] PeterThoeny: hi arthur! [12:35] DavidAllen: Ok, then let's start. Just to let everyone know, I've been *BURIED* with getting the build fully set up for our Certified TWiki product, so [12:35] DavidAllen: I haven't had much time to work the new TinyMCE WYSIWYG, but have generated some comments. [12:35] CDot: well, WYSIWYG has been going pretty well [12:35] DavidAllen: I noticed a good amount of code check-ins from Crawford, I was very happy to see that. [12:35] CDot: we have no open "Urgent" bugs (execpt doc) [12:35] DavidAllen: Any progress on finding a doc helper? [12:36] CDot: we have a few "Normal" but none is release-blocking or even close [12:36] DavidAllen: _very_ good news. [12:36] CDot: No; gmc offered to help, but hasn;t been able to find time [12:36] ArthurClemens: what needs to be done to docs? [12:36] carlo: what needs to be documented? [12:36] DavidAllen: Crawford, there were two nuances I noticed, I'm not sure if this has already been fixed or not. [12:36] CDot: I want a 1-page doc to site in the "help" for TMCE [12:37] CDot: DavidAllen: please report them in the Bugs web [12:37] ArthurClemens: on the edit page? [12:37] DavidAllen: When you use bullets, and then have indented bullets, when you decrease indent [12:37] DavidAllen: it makes the bullet disappear. [12:37] CDot: there is a help button in TMCE [12:37] ArthurClemens: i removed it [12:37] CDot: why? [12:37] ArthurClemens: it is of no use [12:37] ArthurClemens: no use for twiki users [12:37] DavidAllen: And also a feature question: [12:37] CDot: hmmm. i found it rather useful... [12:37] ArthurClemens: what info did it provide you? [12:37] DavidAllen: When I use + to paste, I get this pop-up window (not desireable) [12:38] CDot: erm..... [12:38] DavidAllen: but when I use + to paste, it pastes without the window intermediary. [12:38] DavidAllen: Was the pop-up window paste feature part of TinyMCE, or was this an implementation decision? [12:38] CDot: DavidAllen: sounds like you may be using an old build [12:38] CDot: most of us have no pop-up window [12:38] DavidAllen: quite possibly using an older build [12:38] ArthurClemens: here is a demo with a help button: http://tinymce.moxiecode.com/example_full.php [12:38] PeterThoeny: we have about a week old build installed [12:39] CDot: a week is a long time in WYSWIYG [12:39] PeterThoeny: the latest one is 07 sep [12:39] PeterThoeny: crawford, when is the next build scheduled? [12:39] DavidAllen: ah, then forget my comments about the pop-up windows. I was concerned because this would probably be confusing for novice users. [12:39] CDot: PeterThoeny: next time I fix some bugs [12:39] PeterThoeny: ok, then i will ask our sysadmin to upgrade to the 07 sep version [12:39] CDot: right now, Arthur's latest work needs to be built, but there are no code changes pending [12:40] CDot: hang on, I'll build it now.... [12:40] ArthurClemens: about the info button (see link): click on the help tab [12:40] DavidAllen: arthur's latest work meaning...? [12:40] ArthurClemens: it will show: [12:40] ArthurClemens: * About TinyMCE [12:40] ArthurClemens: * Common buttons [12:40] ArthurClemens: * Insert image button [12:40] ArthurClemens: * Insert link button [12:40] ArthurClemens: * Insert anchor button [12:40] ArthurClemens: * Insert table button [12:40] ArthurClemens: * Create accessible content [12:40] CDot: ok, it's uploading [12:40] ArthurClemens: but behind those links are just screenshots and icons [12:41] ArthurClemens: I also do not like to have 2 help buttons [12:41] CDot: ArthurClemens: agreed, it isn;t that useful [12:41] CDot: but we still need a one-pager specific to wysiwyg [12:41] ArthurClemens: we should provide WYSIWYG help when this is enabled [12:42] CDot: it needs at least to cover the FAQ, or maybe just link to it [12:42] CDot: I had in mind a single side of A4 [12:42] ArthurClemens: default we provide TWiki.WikiSyntaxSummary [12:42] CDot: but it seems for most people, it is fairly self-explanatory [12:42] carlo: what kind of wysiwyg faq are we talking about? [12:43] ArthurClemens: so perhaps something like setting variables [12:43] ArthurClemens: no 3 spaces + asterisk, but a bullet list [12:43] CDot: carlo: see Plugins.TinyMCEPluginDev [12:43] ArthurClemens: these kind of deviations [12:44] CDot: yeeees, but that kinda assumes people have previously used TML [12:44] CDot: and most WYSIWYG users seem to be those who previously walked away *because* of TML [12:44] ArthurClemens: well, some instructions will tell you these thigns [12:44] ktwilight: the purpose of tinymce is to hide such things, no? [12:44] Lavr: I think Wysiwyg should help with the features related to Wysiwyg. And only show TWiki.WikiSyntaxSummary in Raw Edit [12:44] ktwilight: agreed. [12:44] CDot: yep [12:44] ArthurClemens: of course [12:45] DavidAllen: do we anticipate addition (soon) code checkins for WysiwygPlugin? [12:45] ArthurClemens: so there will be an IF in edit.tmpl to include the correct help text [12:45] CDot: so, arthur, can we make the help drop-down a link to a page, so we can swap in a different doc page? [12:45] CDot: DavidAllen: no [12:45] DavidAllen: I noticed there have been some modifications there lately. [12:45] CDot: DavidAllen: lately? [12:45] DavidAllen: good, makes my integration job easier :) [12:45] ArthurClemens: yes, we swap a different page [12:45] CDot: ok, so all we need is someone to craft a suitable page [12:45] ArthurClemens: TWiki.TinyMCEHelpSummary [12:46] CDot: right [12:46] PeterThoeny: yes, a page to swap is a good solution [12:46] ktwilight: it's quite hard for me to imagine a help page for tinymce. :/ [12:46] CDot: ktwilight: me too, but it has to be done [12:47] Lavr: It is good to explain things like what PROTECTED means. [12:47] ArthurClemens: "sorry, for this item is no help available" :-) [12:47] ktwilight: haha :) [12:47] CDot: Lavr: yes [12:47] DavidAllen: [12:47] ktwilight: maybe descriptions of buttons and the layout can be important [12:47] CDot: PROTECTED, VERBATIM have to be explained [12:47] CDot: how to enter and protect TML [12:48] ktwilight: examples are also important, IMHO. [12:48] CDot: examples of what? [12:48] * ktwilight shrugs [12:48] ktwilight: what each does? [12:48] CDot: not so easy; they are not visual concepts [12:48] ArthurClemens: the popups explain a lot [12:48] CDot: but I take your point [12:48] PeterThoeny: crawford: it looks like the tinymceplugin topic you updated 7 min ago did not upload the packages [12:48] carlo: ok. I volunteer but I need help as I don't have enough technical background to explain everything [12:49] CDot: carlo: good man [12:49] DavidAllen: Thanks, Carlo! :) [12:49] ArthurClemens: I will change edit.tmpl to call Carlo's new page [12:49] CDot: start with the FAQ; I will add a definition of PROTECTED etc later [12:49] PeterThoeny: thank you carlo! [12:49] carlo: just a twiki topic right? [12:49] CDot: right [12:49] ArthurClemens: remember, it should be no longer than 1 screen high [12:49] SteffenPoulsen: carlo: + something to put on the tube :-) [12:49] ArthurClemens: the short version that is [12:50] carlo: ...and explain everything [12:50] CDot: carlo: and please avoid the terms "man", "cool" and "dude" >:-) [12:50] ArthurClemens: how about a button to insert icons? [12:50] carlo: what about digger? that is quiet popular in hamburg [12:51] carlo: same meaning as dude [12:51] CDot: aussies would like that [12:51] CDot: ArthurClemens: how about it? Do you really want that? [12:51] ArthurClemens: yes, to insert TWikiDocGraphic icons [12:51] *** gmc has joined #twiki_editor. [12:51] PeterThoeny: hi koen [12:51] CDot: hmmm [12:52] gmc: (hi all, ignore me, just lurking) [12:52] ArthurClemens: it should not be necessary to write advanced TML to get an icon [12:52] ArthurClemens: (no release blocker) [12:52] ArthurClemens: :-) [12:52] DavidAllen: Crawford: Question for you -- one of the features desired for the WYSIWYG editor is to (automatically) be able to add new buttons for new Plugins (that have a UI component) [12:52] CDot: agreed. Perhaps people woud use icons more, if they were more accessible [12:53] DavidAllen: Do you have any thoughts about how easy that would be to achieve? Right now when [12:53] DavidAllen: a new Plugin is added to TWiki, there is no visual indication in the editor. In other words, most [12:53] CDot: DavidAllen: it is already done. TMCE has a plugins architecture [12:53] *** GilmarSantosJr has joined #twiki_editor. [12:53] DavidAllen: users won't see a difference. [12:53] CDot: the url and image isertion, for example, accepts wikiwords [12:53] CDot: that is done in a TMCE plugin [12:53] *** GilmarSantosJr has left #twiki_editor. [12:54] CDot: all a plugin needs to do is ship the right JS files [12:54] DavidAllen: How easy is it to "glue" the plugins architecture to the TWiki plugin architecture. [12:54] CDot: and it will plug straight it [12:54] CDot: ^it&in [12:54] DavidAllen: Yes, Crawford, that answers my question... [12:54] ArthurClemens: we could have a look at the emoticon button/popup [12:54] ktwilight: cool [12:55] CDot: yes, it's not hard to do, i think [12:55] CDot: another feature is a drop-down for attachments [12:55] CDot: though I'm less convinced by that [12:55] carlo: yesyesyesyes [12:55] ArthurClemens: I would prefer to have thumbs for image attachments [12:55] DavidAllen: Do you think it will be feasible one day for plugin authors to be able to add some code to their plug-in, and it add a button to the WYSIWYG? Or does TinyMCE need to be "aware" of all of [12:55] DavidAllen: the potential Plugins that will "plug in"? [12:56] CDot: DavidAllen: the TMCE plugins architecture is fairly well explained in the moxicode doc [12:56] CDot: it's a PITA to write one, but not rocket science [12:57] CDot: the tricky bit (if there is one) is talking back to the REST handlers in TWiki [12:57] ArthurClemens: trouble is to get TWiki variables like PUBURL into the js [12:57] CDot: and that's really all within the plugin author's control [12:57] DavidAllen: OK, i'll have a look at the doc, then... Being able to easily extend the WYSIWYG editor with new buttons / functionality is a priority. [12:57] CDot: ArthurClemens: we could use REST [12:57] PeterThoeny: strategically it would be good to define a implementation neutral editor plugin api [12:57] ArthurClemens: huhh, never touched REST [12:57] DavidAllen: Yes, Peter, that's what I was trying to say... [12:57] PeterThoeny: so that we could switch the editor in teh future [12:57] DavidAllen: yes... [12:58] CDot: I think an implementation neutral API is a pipe dream at this point [12:58] DavidAllen: It would be nice if NatEdit could use this implementation neutral editor plugin api [12:58] CDot: the easiest approach is to select a JS framework with an existing embedded editor [12:58] PeterThoeny: i like to dream! [12:58] CDot: and then plugin to that framework [12:58] DavidAllen: That may be as it may be. It is useful to know this for planning purposes. [12:58] CDot: e.g. YUI, or jsQuery [12:58] carlo: what about uploading files in TMCE? [12:59] CDot: or Google, or one of many others [12:59] DavidAllen: It sounds like JS is the path of least resistance, yes? [12:59] CDot: DavidAllen: yes [12:59] CDot: carlo: what about it? [12:59] * CDot is trying to avoid that [12:59] carlo: is it possible? [12:59] CDot: yes [12:59] carlo: and implemented? [12:59] CDot: is it easy? no, it's a right pain in the butt [13:00] ArthurClemens: another thing is translatios [13:00] CDot: no, its not implemented [13:00] CDot: carlo: it can be done - perhaps should be done - but as a TMCE plugin [13:00] carlo: it will be the first thinlk my users will ask for [13:00] CDot: not low hanging [13:00] CDot: hmmm [13:00] CDot: carlo: it's isn;t even raised as an enhancement request [13:01] CDot: much less an urgent show-stopper [13:01] carlo: kupu provides this option [13:01] PeterThoeny: short term some standard extensions such as spreadsheetplugin could provide a tinymce specific js file; long term a neutal api with a tinymce translator is more flexible [13:01] carlo: if we switch, users will wonder why its not possible anymore [13:02] CDot: PeterThoeny: this is way ahead of 4.2. The whole questions of JS and AJAX framework is affected [13:02] CDot: carlo: a fair point [13:02] carlo: and if I tell them something about edit and attach scripts they will tell me to shut up.... [13:02] PeterThoeny: time check: 30 min is up [13:02] DavidAllen: Hi folks, although this is a great discussion, I'd like to bring up the fact that we are out of time. [13:02] DavidAllen: and the TWiki bi-weekly meeting needs to start. [13:03] CDot: yep; carlo to write doc, crawford to comment on feasibility of uploads and icon menus [13:03] CDot: three actions [13:03] DavidAllen: Obviously, we have some things to think about for the future regarding extending the editor, perhaps in an editor-neutral API way (long term) [13:03] PeterThoeny: any last items before we switch to #twiki_release ? [13:03] DavidAllen: Thanks for participating in this discussion, and I am looking forward to chatting with everyone next week at this time. [13:03] ArthurClemens: we need to keep international users in mind [13:04] ArthurClemens: still no good solution for that [13:04] CDot: nope :-( [13:04] ktwilight: :/ [13:04] ktwilight: which can be a bad image [13:04] CDot: we need at least one chinese speaker on the team [13:04] CDot: I wonder who could do that? [13:05] ArthurClemens: unless we put all strings in a TWiki topic and create attachments from that [13:05] ktwilight: i can try, but no promises. my chinese kinda sucks :) [13:05] ArthurClemens: with AttachContentPlugin [13:05] CDot: ktwilight: it's better than mine ;-) [13:05] ktwilight: :) [13:05] gmc: ktwilight: ah :) [13:05] CDot: but what we really need is tech drivers [13:05] CDot: people who are *pushing* for internationalisation [13:06] CDot: cos otherwise we just ignore it [13:06] ArthurClemens: that means you will wait to after release [13:06] ktwilight: will have to keep that in mind [13:06] PeterThoeny: chedong might be able to help out on the editor [13:06] PeterThoeny: let me ask him [13:06] PeterThoeny: he is in beijing [13:06] ktwilight: as long as things are in utf8 friendly, things should be quite good [13:06] ktwilight: PeterThoeny, that'll be great [13:06] CDot: ah, there's the rub [13:07] PeterThoeny: can we close this meeting? [13:07] carlo: #twiki_release everybody [13:07] PeterThoeny: and shift to #twiki_release [13:07] ktwilight: :) [13:07] *** ktwilight has left #twiki_editor. [13:07] *** carlo has left #twiki_editor.