Session Start (PeterThoeny:#twiki_editor): Mon Sep 03 12:10:18 2007 [12:10] *** #twiki_editor: PeterThoeny OliverKrueger @SvenDowideit [12:10] *** #twiki_editor was created on Mon Sep 03 02:46:06 2007. [12:22] *** DavidAllen has joined #twiki_editor. [12:25] *** Lavr has joined #twiki_editor. [12:25] Lavr: Good evening /morning/day [12:27] *** colas has joined #twiki_editor. [12:29] SvenDowideit: y, i don't understand why we need one per meeting type [12:29] OliverKrueger: Hi [12:30] DavidAllen: Good morning, day, or evening to everyone. We'll just wait a few minutes for other arrivals before we get started with the first WYSIWYG editor meeting. [12:30] colas: Hi all [12:30] *** CDot has joined #twiki_editor. [12:31] CDot: greetings! [12:31] DavidAllen: I've updated http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/edit/Codev/WysiwygEditorMeeting2007x09x03 and will update throughout the meeting... [12:31] DavidAllen: Hi Crawford. [12:31] CDot: Hi there; I added a couple of agenda points [12:31] *** ktwilight_ has joined #twiki_editor. [12:31] ktwilight_: :) [12:32] DavidAllen: or should be... http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/WysiwygEditorMeeting2007x09x03 [12:33] CDot: looks like we have a quorum ... though no Koen, which is a shame :-( [12:33] CDot: shall we begin? [12:33] DavidAllen: OK, everyone to start with, I should introduce myself. I am [12:33] DavidAllen: VP of Product Development at TWIKI.NET. Over the past few months, Peter, Rod, I, and others [12:34] DavidAllen: have been working to put together www.twiki.net We've interviewed lots of [12:34] DavidAllen: customers and potential customers, and in many people's mind there is the [12:35] DavidAllen: perception that TWiki is an engineer's wiki, because of the requirement to learn TWiki Markup Language [12:35] DavidAllen: and the poor quality WYSIWYG editor. I think I speak for everyone in the intent [12:35] *** Lynnwood has joined #twiki_editor. [12:35] DavidAllen: that this change, and a better WYSIWYG editor along with an easier installation [12:35] DavidAllen: process are certainly steps in the right direction. [12:36] DavidAllen: Last week we spoke with Crawford (CDot) and he agreed to help us with this highly visible task of [12:36] DavidAllen: upgrading the WYSIWYG editor to a more capable, less-buggy TinyMCE based editor. [12:37] DavidAllen: We are very grateful to Crawford to agree to apply his considerable skills towards improving [12:37] DavidAllen: this part of TWiki, and see this as a big help in making TWiki more accessible for all categories of users. [12:38] DavidAllen: The purpose of this meeting is to let everyone know what we are doing, and [12:38] DavidAllen: discuss how we can best support Crawford with his work on the WYSIWYG editor this month. [12:38] CDot: TEST!! [12:39] CDot: (starting to sound like a cracked record) [12:39] OliverKrueger: passe [12:39] OliverKrueger: d [12:39] DavidAllen: Crawford, is there anything else you'd like to add? :) [12:39] CDot: DavidAllen: no, David, that's fine [12:39] CDot: the community has wanted WYSWIYG for a looong time [12:40] CDot: and we are all delighted that two sponsor have come forward to help support "getting it right" [12:40] *** Rod has joined #twiki_editor. [12:40] DavidAllen: So have many customers and potential customers. TWiki has lost out in some areas of the marketplace because [12:40] Rod: Hi guys, I'm now in background :) [12:40] DavidAllen: competition had better WYSIWYG [12:40] PeterThoeny: yes, everybody wants a stable wysiwyg editor [12:40] PeterThoeny: hi rod [12:40] DavidAllen: Welcome Rod. [12:40] PeterThoeny: hi all [12:40] Lavr: I also say "Test". Besides Crawford I am the only one really reporting bugs. [12:40] Rod: thanks guys :) [12:40] CDot: yep [12:40] ktwilight_: is it possible to have a small set of existing customers that you have approached with to use TinyMCE for half a day or more as a test? [12:40] SvenDowideit: I think once the first beta is out [12:40] DavidAllen: In my mind the next step is to bundle the (stable) SVN WYSIWYG code [12:40] SvenDowideit: we'll seem more testing [12:41] CDot: the problems I am dealing with ATM are in two places: [12:41] CDot: 1. Excess newliens [12:41] CDot: newlines [12:41] DavidAllen: so we can push this out to many testers. [12:41] Lavr: It is easy to fall on the butt and say Wow by just playing. But please test with real topics. And especially try copy /pasting text from all sorts of sources. [12:41] CDot: this is more irritateing than terminal [12:41] SvenDowideit: see http://distributedinformation.com/TWikiBuilds/ for the alpha's [12:41] CDot: 2. attachments/inline images [12:41] CDot: I have this one solved, I think [12:42] CDot: the main question I have for testers is "how useable is it with TML" [12:42] CDot: because each time I try to do something "clever" I come unstuck [12:42] CDot: for example, multi-line Set caught me out a couple of hours ago [12:42] CDot: so we need people to test "wierd stuff" [12:43] CDot: as well as the word-like operations. [12:43] DavidAllen: I have yet to test the new editor -- is there a place to download a .tar.gz or .zip? [12:43] Lavr: And please make sure you test in Internet Explorer. It is the browser which is most used in businesses. And also the one with the most problems. [12:44] CDot: yes; I have been uploading checkpoint releases for each change [12:44] CDot: but the best place to get test source if from subversion [12:44] PeterThoeny: david: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Plugins/TinyMCEPlugin [12:44] OliverKrueger: I just took my first look at TMCE and it feels great. I will plug it into our intranet tomorrow. [12:44] SvenDowideit: http://distributedinformation.com/TWikiBuilds/ [12:44] OliverKrueger: Is there an easy way to switch back to "normal edit"? [12:44] DavidAllen: I just went there, Sven, it is unclear what file to download. [12:44] SvenDowideit: has the entire twiki tgz & zips for 4.2 alphas built nightly [12:45] Lavr: For those that do not want to install but just test the http://merlin.lavrsen.dk/twiki/bin/view/Main/WebHome is at your disposal. [12:45] SvenDowideit: DavidAllen, basically the most recent zip [12:45] DavidAllen: I don't want the whole of TWiki, I just want the new WYSIWYG code, so I can point [12:45] CDot: DavidAllen: use the code from TWiki.org [12:45] DavidAllen: friends to a download site and they can install and start using it [12:46] Lavr: On the merlin test server you can register and play. Also with the webs with topics in them. it is not production data. It is a copy for playing. [12:46] PeterThoeny: david: i asked our sysadmin to install it on the twiki.net intranet [12:46] colas: CDot, do you plan to go first after the bugs in the WYSIWYG per se (and TML translation), or try first to have all aspects covered (inline image attach, work with TWikiForms)... ? [12:46] CDot: colas: both. [12:47] CDot: the first priority was the obvious bugfixes - that is done [12:47] Lavr: the merlin.lavrsen.dk updates itself every half past the hour. So you can even see bug fixes max one hour later [12:47] CDot: there are some lower piro bugfixes in progress [12:47] CDot: prio [12:47] PeterThoeny: time check: we have 15 min to go [12:47] CDot: and I am working on the images as we speak [12:48] CDot: my main concerns are the amount and quality of testing being done [12:48] CDot: and the documentation [12:48] CDot: I spoke to Koen, and he volunteered to do a one-page help for the editor [12:48] colas: Dont bother. no user read the doc, not even click on a help button [12:48] OliverKrueger: CDot, is it possible to add a button to switch back to non-tmce-edit-mode? [12:48] DavidAllen: Crawford, we are still working on getting documentation help on our side. [12:49] CDot: OliverKrueger: yeeeeessss...... sort of [12:49] CDot: the trouble is that the editor works on an HTML version of the topic [12:49] OliverKrueger: This would help testing in weird environments. :) [12:49] colas: A nice feature would be the editor to add a markwer (metadata) on save, that would be cleaned when editing normally [12:49] CDot: so a button to switch in the JS will just give you a text editor on the HTML :-( [12:50] CDot: colas: why? [12:50] colas: this way it would be easier for us to trace what hapenned to the topic [12:50] CDot: oic [12:50] CDot: hmmm. [12:50] OliverKrueger: CDot, we would always send html and tml. :) [12:50] colas: when a user says "it does not work" but do not remeber exactly what he did [12:50] OliverKrueger: (just for testing, of course) [12:51] colas: and we are called to clean up the mess [12:51] CDot: colas: we could do that, though I have a concern [12:51] CDot: if we add a tag like that, we end up with an "artificial diff" [12:51] CDot: just caused by a different editor being used [12:51] Lavr: That is also my first thought [12:51] CDot: is that really what you want? [12:52] Lavr: What about logging it? [12:52] OliverKrueger: Just make a tag into .changes? [12:52] CDot: it *is* logged [12:52] Lavr: Does it log which editor? [12:52] CDot: oic, you mean log the conversion [12:52] colas: mmm Forget it, yes we can look in the logs [12:52] CDot: yes, that could be done [12:52] *** Rodman has joined #twiki_editor. [12:53] CDot: it doesn't log the editor, no. But I can add that if someone raises an enhancement request (please) [12:54] *** ArthurClemens has joined #twiki_editor. [12:54] colas: we did this for kupu. it logs with kupu_save instead of save [12:54] CDot: so, right now, we can be reasonably confident of the editor when editing formatted topic content [12:54] colas: this is extremely useful to track actual users [12:54] Lavr: What about the Raw Edit button? Arthur just arrived. Are you the one to add it? [12:55] PeterThoeny: time check: we have 5 min left (before the #twiki_marketing meeting) [12:55] CDot: it should be done in the skin; though it could be a checkbox, I suppose [12:55] PeterThoeny: what items need to be coordinated until next week? [12:55] *** ktwilight_ has signed off IRC (Remote closed the connection). [12:55] PeterThoeny: lets have a wysiwyg agenda item in the next week's release meeting [12:55] CDot: documentation and testing, Peter, same as always :-( [12:56] ArthurClemens: Sorry to hop in this late, I had the times wrong [12:57] DavidAllen: Updated at http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/WysiwygEditorMeeting2007x09x03 [12:57] DavidAllen: Crawford, other than cut'n'paste and testing multiple browsers, what other testing activities are important to focus on? [12:58] CDot: mixing TML with HTML is the main problem area [12:58] Lavr: You need to try and edit some complex topics with TWiki Applications to see that nothing gets screwed up. [12:58] OliverKrueger: like having html in the format param of SEARCH? [12:58] CDot: note that it's worse than testing multiple browsers; we need to test multiple versions of the _same_ browser [12:58] CDot: OliverKrueger: exactly [12:59] OliverKrueger: k [12:59] CDot: Lavr: also exactly! [12:59] Lavr: And you need to try and do some real editing to verify that the features work. Like I did when I filed the bug of not getting visible feedback of adding an image not yet attached [12:59] CDot: right [12:59] colas: Speaking of tests, do you think TinyMCE could lend itself to logging what the user did (action) and replay it? [12:59] colas: to be able to reproduce bugs? [12:59] *** ktwilight_ has joined #twiki_editor. [12:59] CDot: colas: maybe.... it would be a very complex change, I think [12:59] *** ArthurClemens has left #twiki_editor. [12:59] DavidAllen: So, does that mean, IE5,6,7 and Mozilla 1.x and 2.x, with Safari and Opera as second-tier testing platforms? [12:59] colas: ok, I have my answer [13:00] CDot: DavidAllen: yes [13:00] CDot: IE 5 is out [13:00] CDot: IE 6,7, yes [13:00] Lavr: I'd rather spend development time on preventing bugs than doing very advanced logging. [13:00] CDot: colas: TinyMCE has a built-in development kit that already does a lot of logging [13:00] CDot: install the "devkit" plugin [13:01] colas: ok thx. [13:01] *** Rod has signed off IRC (Connection reset by peer). [13:01] CDot: ok, we need to switch channels [13:01] DavidAllen: yep, out of time [13:02] CDot: DavidAllen: if you want more detail, or to discuss planning, just shout [13:02] DavidAllen: check out my updates at http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/WysiwygEditorMeeting2007x09x03 and feel free to [13:02] DavidAllen: make changes [13:02] CDot: will do [13:02] DavidAllen: TTYL Crawford [13:02] DavidAllen: Thanks everyone for participating [13:03] PeterThoeny: let's start the #twiki_marketing meeting now (those who want to multitask may :-)) [13:03] ktwilight_: :)