#twiki_marketing IRC log of 2007-01-14

	[INFO]	Channel view for “#twiki_marketing” opened.
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	<rodbeckstrom>	Hi guys!
	<gmc>	hey
	* gmc	has another meeting on #ffii... sort of a crisis there..
	<PeterThoeny>	hi arthur, koen, rod, sven, unixhag
	<PeterThoeny>	let me get a cup of coffee so that my brain works :-)
	<ArthurClemens>	hi
	-->|	Kobby (n=chatzill@78.150.24.180) has joined #twiki_marketing
	<unixhag>	hi
	<ArthurClemens>	Peter, note that your invitation has sent us one hour early :-)
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	<ArthurClemens>	it still says 21:00 GMT
	<ktwilight>	hi
	<Lavr_>	Hi all
	<rodbeckstrom>	greetings Kenneth!
	<Kobby>	Hello everyone
	<rodbeckstrom>	should we start going thru the agenda?
	<Kobby>	Sounds good
	<PeterThoeny>	oh, is it 22 gmt?
	<PeterThoeny>	yes, lets get started
	<Kobby>	No it is now 21:06 GMT
	<PeterThoeny>	koen, do you want to give an update on blogging?
	<PeterThoeny>	minutes are at http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/TWikiMarketingMeeting2008x01x14
	<PeterThoeny>	hold on koen
	<gmc>	hi i'm sorry i have no updates
	<gmc>	i might be absent, due to the ffii meeting..
	<Kobby>	I have a question
	<PeterThoeny>	lets first ask, any other agenda items we should take?
	<Kobby>	My question is on blogging
	<PeterThoeny>	yes, michael?
	<gmc>	ok
	<Kobby>	Have we made a list of other blogs that are relevant to us
	<gmc>	not that i know of
	<gmc>	there may be some on the press page though iirc
	<Kobby>	It would be good to post on other related blogs so that they may reciprocate and post back towards our blog
	<PeterThoeny>	ah, good point, we could list related bogs in the sidebar
	<Kobby>	I think it is called a "blog roll"
	<gmc>	hmm yes a blogroll
	<Kobby>	Maybe we could discuss this on the page TWikiBlogAndNewsletter
	<PeterThoeny>	the headlinesplugin does not yet support feed aggregation
	<PeterThoeny>	for now we simply could link to the blogs
	<gmc>	hmmm there is a plugin that does..
	<ArthurClemens>	It is HeadlinesPlugin
	<Kobby>	Yes, I wasn't thinking so much on the technical solution or aggregation
	<ArthurClemens>	we use it
	<Kobby>	More on the people side of this question - ie who else is out there blogging in a related area and
	<ArthurClemens>	it doesn't do combining multiple feeds though
	<Kobby>	How we make friends with them
	<PeterThoeny>	we can show blog rolls of other blogs one after the other, but we can't aggregate all into one feed
	<ArthurClemens>	right
	<gmc>	i'm sure that can be fixed..
	<gmc>	there are several programs that do this
	<PeterThoeny>	koen: for now, can we simply identifywhat the other blogs are and list them in the sidebar?
	<PeterThoeny>	this is step one
	<PeterThoeny>	step two for later, show an aggregated feed
	<gmc>	sounds like a plan
	<PeterThoeny>	ok
	<PeterThoeny>	anything else on blogging?
	<ArthurClemens>	I think we should create a right bar for that
	<ArthurClemens>	as left is used for navigation now
	<PeterThoeny>	enough screen real estate for a right bar?
	<ArthurClemens>	and we don't expect images on the main blog page
	<gmc>	more bars?
	<gmc>	i would like images on the main blog page
	<gmc>	(dreaming)
	<ArthurClemens>	large ones?
	<PeterThoeny>	yes, if we confine images to, say, 500 pixel width we should be ok
	<gmc>	nah, small ones.. front-page like stuff
	<ArthurClemens>	that would be ok of course
	<Kobby>	I was also thinking of how we encourage community members to post on others blogs and also post items in communities
	<gmc>	well, let us have a RightBar then :)
	<PeterThoeny>	logging activity is lower now than when we started
	<PeterThoeny>	how can we revitalize it?
	<Kobby>	Wiki Matrix is a community that we should start being active in
	<gmc>	Kobby: or post on our blog
	<gmc>	PeterThoeny: by seeking out interesting developments
	<PeterThoeny>	i am a regular contributor on wikimatrix forum
	<Kobby>	That too! That too. Nice point Koen. :)
	<gmc>	if you know of something interesting, you could ask someone who is on it to write a blog post
	<gmc>	or write me an email, i could ask too :)
	<gmc>	i've done so with a few of the postings
	<gmc>	works great, and people are usually pleasantly surprised and willing to blog
	<PeterThoeny>	there are so many intersting apps out there
	<PeterThoeny>	we can reach those builders and ask them to write a post about their app and what kind of problems it solved
	<PeterThoeny>	i did one of kqed, the national public radio
	<PeterThoeny>	time check: +15 min
	<gmc>	PeterThoeny: exactly, if they have their own blog, sure: we can then write an article about that article, putting trackbacks out there
	<PeterThoeny>	lets move on unless we have more on blog
	<gmc>	yes, the users blogging is something that comes back in various items on the agenda i think
	<PeterThoeny>	that was agenda item 1
	<gmc>	or rather the user advocates
	<PeterThoeny>	lets go back to agenda item 0:
	<PeterThoeny>	---++ 0. Release of 4.2
	<PeterThoeny>	sven wanted to build yesterday
	<PeterThoeny>	i asked him to hold back til mon or tue
	<PeterThoeny>	for a wed release
	<PeterThoeny>	we had some delay in preparing the press release
	<PeterThoeny>	this is done now (almost)
	<PeterThoeny>	now posted in codev web
	<gmc>	url?
	<PeterThoeny>	so, original plan was to release today mon
	<PeterThoeny>	which is shifted to wed
	<PeterThoeny>	http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/TWikiPressRelease04x02
	<PeterThoeny>	i would like to thank everyone involved in making this release happen
	<PeterThoeny>	especially those who work so hard: crawford, arthur, sven, kenneth, michael and others
	<gmc>	yay++
	<PeterThoeny>	i hope the delay of two more days is acceptable :-)
	<gmc>	is this press release 'final' ?
	<PeterThoeny>	almost
	<gmc>	need translations i guess
	<gmc>	i'd be happy to do a dutch translation
	<PeterThoeny>	michael and i just talked over the phone
	<Kobby>	GMC, me and Peter discussed it at great lenght earlier
	<PeterThoeny>	we will make two more teaks and we are done
	<Kobby>	We are happy with all but 2 sentences
	<Kobby>	Sorry, I'll let you speak Peter!
	<PeterThoeny>	once the DRAFT message is gone we are ready to send it out to the press and bloggers
	<PeterThoeny>	attention: please ask them to releas on or after 16 jan, _not_ before
	<Kobby>	Just going back to the blogging point earlier - we need to (within our community not just on our blog) work out what are the blog sites that we are most interested in
	<Kobby>	It won't influence so much what blogs we post to this time
	<gmc>	slashdot? :)
	<Kobby>	But it will be very useful in the future to ensure that we address the most relavent bloggers out there
	<Kobby>	Yep, we got slashdot
	<PeterThoeny>	absolutely agreed kobby
	<gmc>	there are some dutch forums.. tweakers eg
	<gmc>	automatiseringsgids
	<gmc>	well i wrote them down somewhere in codev
	<Kobby>	I'll create a page called MediaOutlets or something like that and people can add all the relevant blogs they can think of
	<gmc>	(there should be a twiki hyves :)
	<PeterThoeny>	the place to coordinate all publicity is http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/TWikiAdvocacy04x02
	<PeterThoeny>	please record there all contacts you have sent the press release to
	<Kobby>	OK I'll make sure the page MediaOutlets is a child of that page
	<PeterThoeny>	thsi avoids doubles
	<PeterThoeny>	MediaOutlets?
	<Kobby>	I'll create a page called MediaOutlets or something like that and people can add all the relevant blogs they can think of
	<gmc>	PeterThoeny: that is where i put the info
	<gmc>	Kobby: there is already such a list on the url peter mentioned
	<PeterThoeny>	ah
	<Kobby>	Ah
	<Kobby>	That's the trouble with Codev! ;)
	<PeterThoeny>	the TWikiAdvocacy04x02 topic already has topics with contacts journalists, analysts, bloggers
	<gmc>	it says the press release has been snet to the hbloggers already?
	<Kobby>	Hmmnnn....
	<PeterThoeny>	that is wrong
	<PeterThoeny>	(copy of 4.1 release advocacy topic)
	<gmc>	:)
	<PeterThoeny>	and TT is no longer active
	<Kobby>	Maybe this should be moved to another page because the list of bloggers isn't just relevant to release 4.2
	<gmc>	Kobby: maybe something for after the release
	<Kobby>	Yes, sure
	<PeterThoeny>	i think there should be one page that lists all press. analysts and blogger contacts
	<PeterThoeny>	but we still need one per release to keep track on status
	<gmc>	sometimes you have 'inside contact' you may not want to put in codev...
	<PeterThoeny>	yes, i have contacts i can't put into public
	<gmc>	but the action now is to reset those fields for 4.2
	<PeterThoeny>	so there it is ok to simply state the name
	<PeterThoeny>	yes
	<gmc>	there are names with most contacts, so you know who has the contacts
	<PeterThoeny>	one more point on release i'd like to address
	<PeterThoeny>	crawford's complain on the attribution in twikihistory
	<gmc>	one more from me too: translations
	<gmc>	could you summarize?
	<PeterThoeny>	he sent an email to twiki-dev that he is "extremely unhappy" with the list
	<PeterThoeny>	here it is: http://develop.twiki.org/~twiki4/cgi-bin/view/TWiki/TWikiHistory#TWiki_Release_4_2_Freetown_16_Ja
	<PeterThoeny>	i basically prepared the list in the same way like last time
	<unixhag>	looking through that list, I'm surprised there are not more educational contacts. Sorry, I have none to contribute right now, just this thought, maybe an untapped opportunity for advocacy
	<PeterThoeny>	i think it is important to attribute contributors properly
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	<Kobby>	UnixHag: what is your wikiname?
	<gmc>	who would disagree/?
	<PeterThoeny>	unixhag: good point, please start on table for edu contacts :-)
	<unixhag>	SueBlake
	<Kobby>	By the way, I am Michael Corbett
	<gmc>	< KoenMartens
	<ArthurClemens>	Arthur Clemens
	<Kobby>	Hi Sue
	<unixhag>	PeterThoeny: :-)
	<PeterThoeny>	hi sue! :-)
	<gmc>	d.t.o does take its time
	<PeterThoeny>	we do not need to decide now on how to address crawford's concern, i just wanted to point it out
	* unixhag	is reminded of those parties where people remove their... masks... at midnight
	<Kobby>	Yes, I don't think its a marketing issue
	<PeterThoeny>	please reply in twiki-dev and lets make a decision within 24 hours
	<Kobby>	LOL Unixhag
	<gmc>	what is his concern?
	<gmc>	ok
	<gmc>	i've been workiung my way through 1600 emails today after 3 weeks holiday, i'm not entirely up on mailing lists :)
	<PeterThoeny>	mc: what on translations?
	<PeterThoeny>	(gmc)
	<Lavr_>	I wonder what version Crawford was referring to because I was also unhappy and one time but then it changed for something better.
	<PeterThoeny>	(somehow my irc client sometimes eats the first char)
	<gmc>	is there any coordination (required) on translations of press releases
	<gmc>	PeterThoeny: you're the mc today :)
	<PeterThoeny>	:-)
	<PeterThoeny>	time check: +35 min (rod and i have a hard stop at +60 min)
	<PeterThoeny>	not all translations are up to date
	<PeterThoeny>	jp for example is not updated
	<PeterThoeny>	Lavr_: you are ok with releasing anyway, right?
	<gmc>	PeterThoeny: press release or twiki translation?
	<PeterThoeny>	wiki trnaslation
	<Lavr_>	I am OK with releasing with incomplete translations yes.
	<PeterThoeny>	"twiki translation"
	<PeterThoeny>	ok
	<PeterThoeny>	anything else on release?
	<Lavr_>	off-topic - can anyone Wysiwyg edit on d.t.o at the moment?
	<gmc>	well, translations of press releases still..
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	<PeterThoeny>	on trabnslation of press release, please coordinate in the 4.2 advocacy topic and create a new page with the translation
	<gmc>	allright
	<PeterThoeny>	we need to speed up
	<PeterThoeny>	---++ 2. Home Page Redesign
	<PeterThoeny>	arthur, quick update (if any?)
	<PeterThoeny>	well, maybe he is coming back to it later
	<PeterThoeny>	---++ 3. Testimonials
	<PeterThoeny>	michael?
	<ArthurClemens>	back
	<PeterThoeny>	ok, 2. first
	<ArthurClemens>	no update btw
	<Kobby>	As you know, TWiki.net have put up prize money for the You Tube contest
	<Kobby>	(As previously announced by Rod)
	<PeterThoeny>	ko, back to 3.
	<Kobby>	Peter, what do you mean?
	<PeterThoeny>	twiki.net asked michael to drive the youtube contest program
	<PeterThoeny>	s/ko/ok/
	<PeterThoeny>	(typo)
	<gmc>	great
	<PeterThoeny>	rod stepped out for a moment
	<ktwilight>	sorry to interrupt, but xored has started to do some redesign of the home page which can be found here http://twiki.impressive-media.de/green/view/NewTWikiEntry/WebHome
	<Kobby>	Boy, this is confusing
	<Kobby>	Anyway, I will create a page on You Tube where all videos can be viewed but
	<Kobby>	Everything else will be done on the TWiki.org site
	<Kobby>	Voting and discussion etc
	<Kobby>	There are prizes for the winners but we are also ensuring that everyone who enters will get something
	<Kobby>	So everyone who enters gets a T-shirt
	<PeterThoeny>	:-)
	<gmc>	yay
	<gmc>	:)
	<PeterThoeny>	rod asked to start with two slides in the beginning and one slide at the end of the videa
	<Kobby>	That is true - TWiki.net will have to supply that
	<PeterThoeny>	ktwilight: better to coodinate the redesign in the proper topic in codev
	<PeterThoeny>	but good to have ideas popping up
	<PeterThoeny>	yes
	<PeterThoeny>	anythin gelse on testimonials?
	<Kobby>	And I am not sure about the video editing abilities of community members but TWiki.net have agreed to put the beginning and ending slides onto videos for folks who don't know how to do this
	<Kobby>	Yes, one thing
	<ktwilight>	PeterThoeny, sure, will relay your appreciation to xored
	<Kobby>	It would be good to start a page that lists all the evidence of how popular TWiki is
	<Kobby>	For example, the number of google hits when searching for TWiki installations
	<Kobby>	Things like that
	<Kobby>	Or the number of comparisons done against TWiki on the wiki matrix site
	<Kobby>	Its sort of the numerical end of TWiki testimonials
	<Kobby>	Does that make sense to people?
	<PeterThoeny>	Kobby: that page exists, at http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/NumberOfTWikiInstallations
	<SvenDowideit>	not really
	<Kobby>	Ah, Codev again... ;)
	<SvenDowideit>	you want to bore people with short attention spans?
	<PeterThoeny>	time check: +48 min
	<PeterThoeny>	lets move on
	<Kobby>	Sven - I am not saying that it should be published in a press release or anything - just to use as a resource for the rest of the markting community
	<SvenDowideit>	(I presume the videos should be short - like sub 2 mins, so taking 20+ seconds for stats that can be gotten elsewhere is a little dodgey
	<PeterThoeny>	---++ 4. TWiki.org Performance
	<Kobby>	Ah- understand your confusion
	<Kobby>	The stats are nothing to do with the video contest
	<PeterThoeny>	part of server hardware is here, more is on the way
	<Lavr_>	while we chat - can someone try to edit http://develop.twiki.org/~twiki4/cgi-bin/view/Bugs/Item5248
	<SvenDowideit>	oh, I thought you were talking about the vid - as that was the current item :)
	<Kobby>	Sorry for confusion
	<SvenDowideit>	:)
	<SvenDowideit>	new server
	<Kobby>	:)
	<ktwilight>	PeterThoeny, cool, good to know
	<SvenDowideit>	if you guys have gotten slashdot
	<SvenDowideit>	then we need to move _now_
	<Lavr_>	And Sven you should read the content. This is a serious one it seems. Not the euro sign but the error.
	<SvenDowideit>	twiki.org will last 10 seconds
	<PeterThoeny>	we got the quote from plug and play for hosting
	<gmc>	Lavr_: to what end?
	<PeterThoeny>	basically we need half a rack for all the hardware
	<gmc>	hmm, good point SvenDowideit
	<PeterThoeny>	there is one contentious point though: link question
	<Lavr_>	gmc. When I edit the topic never loads to the Wysiwyg editor. Do not raw edit. Normal Wysiwyg edit!
	<gmc>	<click>
	<ktwilight>	SvenDowideit, we can be mean and redirect any slashdots. :)
	<gmc>	so we need a twiki.org backup.. static version.. whatever, handy, just in case
	<PeterThoeny>	rod instructed me to put hosting on ice until the community decides on the link question
	<PeterThoeny>	http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/RevisitingDecisionNotToAllowLinkingToExternalTWikiDistros
	<SvenDowideit>	well, thats a bit silly
	<PeterThoeny>	we do not have the time to discuss this here
	<PeterThoeny>	just wanted to give a heads up
	<ktwilight>	you've got to be kidding me...
	<SvenDowideit>	as twiki.org _will_ die
	<ktwilight>	whatever marketing you do, even the best, without the product, it's nothing. and twiki's product is partly twiki.org's survival.
	<PeterThoeny>	twiki.net is alredy doing a lot for the community
	<PeterThoeny>	yes, i agree ktwilight, please voice in the codev topic
	<ktwilight>	should we rediect twiki.org links to twiki.net to keep things going? it can be a good quick alternative.
	<gmc>	nah..
	<PeterThoeny>	no way
	<SvenDowideit>	yes, but that statement suggests twiki.net is getting between TWiki and servers donated to it
	<PeterThoeny>	important to keep identity of open source
	<SvenDowideit>	or were the servers donated to twiki.net?
	<gmc>	i think we can work on the premise that the new servers won't be available before wednesday
	<gmc>	so any talk of them is moot atm
	<PeterThoeny>	no, the question is: should twiki.net sponsor more and more and not get the link on the download page?
	<PeterThoeny>	yes, we do not need to decide now
	<gmc>	PeterThoeny: that is up to twiki.net
	<PeterThoeny>	but please contribute in the codev topics
	<gmc>	fwiw, if needed i can require some extra servers..
	<gmc>	perhaps
	<gmc>	that can be used temporarily, if we really expect to be on slashdot
	<PeterThoeny>	many three poeple objected to the link even though it was a community devision
	<PeterThoeny>	"dcision"
	<SvenDowideit>	3?
	<PeterThoeny>	time check: +55 min
	<SvenDowideit>	like i pointed out on the topic, I still don't know what the objections were
	<SvenDowideit>	until those in rome actually give real accounts of what happened there
	<SvenDowideit>	the community can't decide if what was discussed there is relevant or reasonable
	<Kobby>	GMC - I think its more of a case that we'd LIKE to be slashdotted
	<Lavr_>	Ask Crawford. He was the main objection.
	<SvenDowideit>	no
	<SvenDowideit>	it _has_ to be in a public discussion
	<SvenDowideit>	with record
	<Lavr_>	I was there - HE was the main objection.
	<PeterThoeny>	ok, action tem for me: describe what the community decided in rome in more detail than stated in minutes
	<SvenDowideit>	ie, on codev
	<PeterThoeny>	next: press release (already discussed)
	<gmc>	Kobby: hey if you get slashdotted you'll scroll over our 80x6 led display news feed thingy :)
	<PeterThoeny>	next:
	<SvenDowideit>	i keep saying this
	<PeterThoeny>	---++ 6. Usability
	<SvenDowideit>	the rome stuff needs to be agreed to by the community
	<SvenDowideit>	else, it is invalid
	<SvenDowideit>	ok - gotta go :(
	* ktwilight	waves
	<Kobby>	Sven is right - all summit decisions need to be rubber stamped by the community as a whole
	<PeterThoeny>	carlo is not here
	<PeterThoeny>	on community decision: i invite everyone to please participate in the upcoming dev summit
	<Lavr_>	I guess we should stop making Summit then if people do not care what goes on there then!
	<PeterThoeny>	where we can refine our decision process
	<gmc>	ghaa.. put >2 people in a (chat) room, what do you get: politics!
	<unixhag>	Does usability include (new) admin usability, or specific to logged in users? (wondering)
	<PeterThoeny>	i have 2 more min
	<gmc>	ghaa.. put >2 people in a (chat) room, what do you get: politics!
	* unixhag	withdraws question
	<gmc>	(sorry)
	<gmc>	client locked up
	<Kobby>	I think we need to move towards having a page that describes some of the decision making processes for our community
	<Kobby>	We sure as hell ain't going to solve it here
	<PeterThoeny>	no update on usability
	<PeterThoeny>	---++ 7. Merchandising
	<PeterThoeny>	rod is back
	<rodbeckstrom>	someone on our team is going to set up an account at spreadshirt.com
	<rodbeckstrom>	at that site, we will load up all kinds of goodies with various TWiki and TWIKI.NET logos
	<rodbeckstrom>	it should also be possible for us to add more designs in the future
	<Kobby>	And remember that all valid entries to the You Tube contest will get a free T Shirt
	<rodbeckstrom>	good point
	<rodbeckstrom>	so we hope to have the merchandizing site up by the next marketing call
	<PeterThoeny>	---++ 8. TWiki Meetups
	<PeterThoeny>	kenneth has one in a few days
	<PeterThoeny>	how many do you expect?
	<PeterThoeny>	then there is one in amsterdam
	<Lavr_>	yes and no. We have no place to meet and noone came with suggestions to where.
	<PeterThoeny>	then we have one in mid fed at the time of the summit
	<Lavr_>	We are a couple that go to a seminar
	<PeterThoeny>	Lavr_: just make it simple
	<PeterThoeny>	decide on a restaurant or even an office place
	<PeterThoeny>	just announce it, no need to organize much
	<rodbeckstrom>	we organized the first Silicon Valley Meet Up here in the offices where we are based and it worked fine
	<PeterThoeny>	ad hock for first time is ok
	<Lavr_>	Well. If you do not reserve such a restaurant weeks in advance in Copenhagen you do not have room.
	<PeterThoeny>	amy be you even get a bird of a feather room at the conference for free
	<gmc>	we use a university computer lab
	<PeterThoeny>	s/amy/may/
	<PeterThoeny>	rod and i have to sign off now
	<PeterThoeny>	please keep going as needed
	<gmc>	ok bye, tnx!
	<PeterThoeny>	who is posting the log?
	<rodbeckstrom>	all the best mates :)
	<PeterThoeny>	thanks all!
	<Kobby>	Good bye guys
	<unixhag>	bye
	<PeterThoeny>	especially huge appreciation to all who made 4.2 happen!
	<PeterThoeny>	cheers
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