[04 Sep 10:20] @1220516455 OliverKrueger joined the channel [04 Sep 10:20] @1220516458 AndreU (n=AndreU@tmo-099-1.customers.d1-online.com) joined the channel [04 Sep 10:20] @1220516475 Greetings. [04 Sep 10:21] @1220516502 Babar (i=babar@irssi/user/babar) joined the channel [04 Sep 10:21] @1220516548 should we announce this channel in the main #twiki channel, so that people like Sven can join in? [04 Sep 10:21] @1220516563 sure, why not. [04 Sep 10:22] @1220516632 done. [04 Sep 10:22] @1220516642 gmc (n=gmc@freenode/sponsor/gmc) joined the channel [04 Sep 10:22] @1220516651 uebera|| (n=nuser@enton.tm.informatik.uni-frankfurt.de) joined the channel [04 Sep 10:22] Hi Koen. [04 Sep 10:22] --> SvenDowideit__ (n=SvenDowi@124-168-190-132.dyn.iinet.net.au) joined the channel [04 Sep 10:22] hey there [04 Sep 10:22] Hi there. :) [04 Sep 10:22] Hi Sven, hi Markus [04 Sep 10:22] Hi Koen! [04 Sep 10:22] holla :) [04 Sep 10:23] thought we were going to be in #twiki_release [04 Sep 10:23] thats where it was doccoed to be [04 Sep 10:23] that'd also have a bot to log it [04 Sep 10:24] My IRC bouncer logs all channels I'm on, so I can provide the log afterwards in case someone needs it. [04 Sep 10:24] uebera||, please :) i like irc logs on twiki topics [04 Sep 10:24] gives us a record for next year [04 Sep 10:24] np :) [04 Sep 10:25] we'll just miss the start then, but Kenneth | Oliver | Martin might provide it and one can merge [04 Sep 11:08] --> AndreU (n=AndreU@tmo-113-2.customers.d1-online.com) joined the channel [04 Sep 11:13] just for the logs, AdamHyde made a realy stunning presentation of what floss did with TWiki, and then MartinSeibert showed how wiki is unsed internally to federate many applications of // SEIBERT / MEDIA [04 Sep 11:17] :) [04 Sep 11:22] It would be great if they could attach some slides (extracts) to the summit topic afterwards ;) [04 Sep 11:24] (coffee break btw :)) [04 Sep 11:36] uebera||: I've asked Martin who said he will try to put some things. I'll ask Adam at the next break. [04 Sep 11:36] Now Kenneth shows the TWikis inside Motorola. [04 Sep 11:36] --> MartinSeibert__ (i=50bb7102@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-c2fef112c357fe98) joined the channel [04 Sep 11:36] great! [04 Sep 11:37] --> SvenDowideit1 (n=SvenDowi@twiki/developer/SvenDowideit) joined the channel [04 Sep 11:38] --> MartinSeibert (n=martinse@tmo-113-2.customers.d1-online.com) joined the channel [04 Sep 11:38] ... [04 Sep 11:40] Kenneth presents the Motorola Quality Management System based on TWiki. [04 Sep 11:41] and diverts by ranting against ISO certifications :) [04 Sep 11:44] --> SvenDowideit__ (n=SvenDowi@124-168-141-155.dyn.iinet.net.au) joined the channel [04 Sep 11:44] --- SvenDowideit__ (n=SvenDowi@124-168-141-155.dyn.iinet.net.au) changed topic: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/TWikiCommunitySummitBerlin2008Q3 [04 Sep 11:45] one day we'll have ShorterURLCookbook on t.o :) [04 Sep 11:52] now he's showing how to get rid of cut'n'paste thanks to TWiki [04 Sep 11:53] with a nice table getting live data out of clearquest to have a quick overview of the bugs [04 Sep 11:53] with a custom plugin [04 Sep 11:57] basically, he's presenting his day-to-day usage of their TWiki installation [04 Sep 11:58] Off topic: There seem to be a couple of "private" plugIns to buy. Can we create a list of these additional Plugins. This way interested party in buying these plugins could contact the developers, who created them. What do the others think? [04 Sep 11:58] * Babar thinks this should come up in the governance topic planned this afternoon, but it's a good point not to forget it [04 Sep 11:59] --> CDot (n=Crawford@tmo-113-2.customers.d1-online.com) joined the channel [04 Sep 11:59] too bad Crawford wasn't there 2 min ago :) [04 Sep 12:00] Maybe these "private"/commercial plugins could be mentioned on the ConsultantsForHire page (or in a separate web, if they come with demos --in that case, this web should be separated (different server) from t.o, however) [04 Sep 12:01] Kenneth's conclusion: TWiki is a tool used every day for project management, sharing information within project teams [04 Sep 12:02] interesting presentation showing how to get rid of ISO word documents, and to migrate all this into wiki pages, that can be included into each other to generate reports, and be edited easily [04 Sep 12:04] Do they use the other way, too? Often, word documents represent the required format to document products ;) [04 Sep 12:05] --> SvenDowideit (n=SvenDowi@twiki/developer/SvenDowideit) joined the channel [04 Sep 12:05] * Babar thinks Kenneth talked about this, how to ship these documents to ISO reviewers, but I'll let him answer [04 Sep 12:05] kenneth can't get to his machine just now [04 Sep 12:05] michael daum is presenting [04 Sep 12:06] np, it's not urgent. [04 Sep 12:06] Talks about his beloved "wiki-spaghetti-balls". :-) [04 Sep 12:11] and it will soon ne 12:15, time we need to be in the cafetaria [04 Sep 12:12] Michael shows a expert-skill-application. Very neat. [04 Sep 12:12] very useful for consulting companies, and looking really fast and AJAX enabled [04 Sep 12:19] The code is in svn. [04 Sep 12:22] --> SvenDowideit__ (n=SvenDowi@124-171-23-93.dyn.iinet.net.au) joined the channel [04 Sep 13:27] --> AndreU (n=AndreU@tmo-126-1.customers.d1-online.com) joined the channel [04 Sep 13:29] --> Lavr_ (n=81bc45a1@cpe.atm2-0-103309.0x3ef3d076.albnxx13.customer.tele.dk) joined the channel [04 Sep 13:30] Conference bridge will be setup after Carlos presentation [04 Sep 13:30] PIN code XXXXXXX [04 Sep 13:31] United States XXXX XXXXXXX [04 Sep 13:31] --> CDot (n=Crawford@tmo-126-1.customers.d1-online.com) joined the channel [04 Sep 13:31] Germany XXXX XXXXXXX [04 Sep 13:32] Carlo is actually presenting how his usability experience made him tweaked TWiki to get a more user-friendly experience [04 Sep 13:32] huhu [04 Sep 13:32] au? [04 Sep 13:32] Netherlands XXXXX XXXXXX [04 Sep 13:33] Australia XXXX XXXXXX [04 Sep 13:33] He is already typing... ;) [04 Sep 13:33] with a few basic concepts not to scare away the users, but to give them a more smooth one [04 Sep 13:34] basics: remove explanations, use images... [04 Sep 13:35] tweaked the search to make it look more like google [04 Sep 13:36] SvenDowideit__: what time is it down under? [04 Sep 13:37] 9:30pm [04 Sep 13:37] not to bad yet [04 Sep 13:37] better than 4:30 for west coast :) [04 Sep 13:38] (am) [04 Sep 13:38] yep [04 Sep 13:38] but then, its always a better time here in AU :} [04 Sep 13:38] any country missing for phone numbers? [04 Sep 13:38] how soon are we start it? [04 Sep 13:40] Carlo said 5 minutes but I expect at least 5 more [04 Sep 13:40] he didn't expend that many questions :) [04 Sep 13:40] expect [04 Sep 13:41] koolieo :) [04 Sep 13:49] Carlo's presentation is over [04 Sep 13:49] and feedback is that his knowledge on usability would be very profitable for the entire community [04 Sep 13:49] which we will discuss tomorrow probably [04 Sep 13:50] now Kenneth is setting up the voice bridge, so be patient, and you may soon dial in [04 Sep 13:51] wot? me patient? nodachance [04 Sep 13:52] setting up, entering conference code and PIN [04 Sep 13:52] it should be up now [04 Sep 13:52] or not :) [04 Sep 13:53] hehe [04 Sep 13:53] SvenDowideit__: can you please try it? [04 Sep 13:53] according to he voice, it should be up [04 Sep 13:53] s/he/the/ [04 Sep 13:53] i should be in now [04 Sep 13:53] say hi :) [04 Sep 13:53] i have :) [04 Sep 13:54] canyou hear us? [04 Sep 13:54] telephone line is open [04 Sep 13:54] only a little [04 Sep 13:54] very very quiet [04 Sep 13:54] 1 2 1 2 [04 Sep 13:54] we can't hear you I'm afraid [04 Sep 13:54] ok, trying again [04 Sep 13:55] hi sven [04 Sep 13:55] sounds like you have a bad cold [04 Sep 13:55] heya ;) [04 Sep 13:56] you guys sounds like you are in a big hall [04 Sep 13:56] can you hear Kenneth [04 Sep 13:56] say sth illy. [04 Sep 13:56] silly [04 Sep 13:56] and are a long long way away [04 Sep 13:56] we *are* in a big hall [04 Sep 13:56] we are [04 Sep 13:56] you should see the dancing girls [04 Sep 13:56] ok, total silence [04 Sep 13:56] now we just need to wake Peter up [04 Sep 13:56] did you hear that? [04 Sep 13:56] i now hear nothing [04 Sep 13:57] y [04 Sep 13:57] martin pressed the mute button :/ [04 Sep 13:57] hehe [04 Sep 13:57] Eugen ist presenting now. [04 Sep 14:05] He is showing how he does a normal edit-save-cycle through OpenOffice. [04 Sep 14:06] or in addition import ODT files as topics. [04 Sep 14:09] which includes automatically inclusion of images, which he is showing right now [04 Sep 14:19] --> MartinSeibert (n=martinse@tmo-126-1.customers.d1-online.com) joined the channel [04 Sep 14:19] ... [04 Sep 14:21] Who is on the phone conference? [04 Sep 14:21] Sven? [04 Sep 14:21] ya [04 Sep 14:21] i am spying on you all :) [04 Sep 14:21] Eugen has finished his OpenOffice "integration" [04 Sep 14:22] ok, [04 Sep 14:22] whoever is talking now [04 Sep 14:22] is toooo quiet [04 Sep 14:22] next agenda point [04 Sep 14:23] TWiki governance [04 Sep 14:24] Sven: can you hear Michael properly now? [04 Sep 14:24] no [04 Sep 14:24] i hear papers being moved on a table :) [04 Sep 14:25] people on the phone, please speak up [04 Sep 14:25] ah [04 Sep 14:25] there was a hello [04 Sep 14:25] who is on the phone? [04 Sep 14:25] that was me :) [04 Sep 14:25] (Tom Barton is speaking, in case you didn't recognize him) [04 Sep 14:25] ah [04 Sep 14:25] ta [04 Sep 14:26] can you hear over the phone? [04 Sep 14:26] yup [04 Sep 14:26] thanks [04 Sep 14:27] yell, if it becomes too slow. [04 Sep 14:27] --> Lynnwood (n=lynnwood@twiki/developer/lynnwood) joined the channel [04 Sep 14:27] hi Lynnwood [04 Sep 14:27] not slow: rather too silently [04 Sep 14:27] Tom Barton is speaking. [04 Sep 14:27] please, as Sven, yell here or on the phone if you can't here something, or if you're not sure who's speaking [04 Sep 14:28] he wants [04 Sep 14:28] less politics [04 Sep 14:28] more investments [04 Sep 14:28] commercial succes for all [04 Sep 14:28] sounds like he needs to resolve the trademark problem [04 Sep 14:29] more funding [04 Sep 14:29] and he's the only one placed to do so [04 Sep 14:29] and he's stressing the fact that TWiki is way behind other actors in the market [04 Sep 14:29] as peter is aparently not interested enough [04 Sep 14:29] sven: let's evolve the discussion. [04 Sep 14:29] re [04 Sep 14:29] was on the phone for half an hour now [04 Sep 14:30] MartinSeibert, its is the major root issue [04 Sep 14:30] gmc: can you decently? [04 Sep 14:30] so peter's nto participating, this discussion is pointless then? [04 Sep 14:30] MartinSeibert: i can hear tom (i supose this is tom) fine now [04 Sep 14:30] he will, it's just 5.30am at the moment [04 Sep 14:30] it is Tom [04 Sep 14:30] dunno - I would presume tom's there to represent t.n :) [04 Sep 14:31] --> carlo__ (n=chatzill@tmo-126-1.customers.d1-online.com) joined the channel [04 Sep 14:31] Tom cannot make decisions for TWiki.net on alone. [04 Sep 14:32] Peter has a lot of work to do. [04 Sep 14:32] He cannot be here because of that. [04 Sep 14:33] Peter wanted to come here. He could not. [04 Sep 14:33] It was impossible for him. [04 Sep 14:33] t.n is a company, and they're customer driven, and it would have been hurting the customer if he would have joined here [04 Sep 14:33] Adam speaking. [04 Sep 14:33] Expressed his disappointment, that Peter is not is not here. [04 Sep 14:34] it would be good to note that peter's obviously _not_ the head of the community [04 Sep 14:34] Eugen agrees [04 Sep 14:34] else he would have bothered to be here [04 Sep 14:34] EugenMayer seconds the criticism. [04 Sep 14:34] [04 Sep 14:34] There are problems of trust. [04 Sep 14:34] It is a bad thing, that. [04 Sep 14:34] unintelligble on the phone now [04 Sep 14:35] it was Cawford thanking Tom for joining [04 Sep 14:35] Kenneth speaking ... [04 Sep 14:35] and MichaelDaum also thanking both Tom and Adam for the same [04 Sep 14:35] Pointing to his Wiki document. [04 Sep 14:36] TWikiGovernanceConsolidated [04 Sep 14:36] Address the crucial points upfront to be plain. [04 Sep 14:36] no :( [04 Sep 14:36] no :( [04 Sep 14:37] Lynnwood: can you record the phone conference? [04 Sep 14:37] Can anybody log. [04 Sep 14:37] if i had known before i couldve set something up but this is too short notice [04 Sep 14:37] let's try that. [04 Sep 14:38] * Babar started a recording session too, but not sure how it will "look" [04 Sep 14:38] Kenneth moves on ... [04 Sep 14:39] (btw, uebera|| said he can provide logs of this channel) [04 Sep 14:39] Talks about the history of TWikiGovernance. [04 Sep 14:39] Kenneth: we need one proposal [04 Sep 14:39] and agree an that one [04 Sep 14:40] now talks about how the TWikiGovernanceConsolited was created [04 Sep 14:40] Kenneth say Peter was angry about that there is a second proposal [04 Sep 14:40] Kenneth points out, that there is a risk for a fork. [04 Sep 14:41] fighting, already? :) [04 Sep 14:41] YEAH [04 Sep 14:41] fighting with plugs and cables [04 Sep 14:41] Eugen tripped on a trap setup by Kenneth [04 Sep 14:41] nothing serious there [04 Sep 14:41] Peter was not pleased with the proposal of Kenneth. [04 Sep 14:42] He wanted his proposal in place. [04 Sep 14:42] now Kenneth refers about the things Peter was so far not willing to discuss [04 Sep 14:42] first thing: BDFL [04 Sep 14:42] Nobody knows, what Peter wants to be BDFL for. [04 Sep 14:43] BDFL must be defined and agreed by the community. [04 Sep 14:43] unclear who or if he plans to use the power for [04 Sep 14:43] how not who [04 Sep 14:43] All respect that Peter founded the projects. [04 Sep 14:43] but most of the work done by community not peter [04 Sep 14:43] TWiki is ours not just peters [04 Sep 14:43] What TWiki is was created by others also. [04 Sep 14:44] how's this discussion structured? i might want to make a short statement later on perhaps [04 Sep 14:45] Can you still hear on the phones? [04 Sep 14:45] Kenneth pointed out we'll discuss afterwards [04 Sep 14:45] ya [04 Sep 14:45] it follows TWikiGovernanceConsolited [04 Sep 14:45] There is not a clear licence for TWiki. [04 Sep 14:45] MartinSeibert: i can still hear [04 Sep 14:46] http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/TWikiGovernanceConsolidated?cover=print in case you're lazy [04 Sep 14:46] and the logo [04 Sep 14:46] There must be a reliable licence for using the name of TWiki. [04 Sep 14:46] The logo is part of that. [04 Sep 14:47] the logo was created because the previous logo had a restricted license [04 Sep 14:47] we needed one that had a free license [04 Sep 14:48] The issue around BDFL is not simply that it's not defined. [04 Sep 14:48] Although peter's avoidance to defining it reflects the issue. [04 Sep 14:49] At this point in the community, the BDFL's ability to over-ride the will of the the board or community should be defined very narrowly [04 Sep 14:49] if it has that ability at all. [04 Sep 14:49] A reliable licence must be valid forever. It must not be "revokeable". [04 Sep 14:49] And frankly I believe the very name of the role is not appropriate to the community. [04 Sep 14:49] All agree, that TWiki must be led by a team, that is elected by the community. [04 Sep 14:49] --> Lavr (n=81bc4581@cpe.atm2-0-103309.0x3ef3d076.albnxx13.customer.tele.dk) joined the channel [04 Sep 14:50] (this client is shown on a beamer in the room) [04 Sep 14:50] Peter agrees with that, says Kenneth. [04 Sep 14:51] I have stated elsewhere that it would be much preferably simply to use the common name of "board of directors" rather than some name we try to invent [04 Sep 14:51] if it in fact acts as a board [04 Sep 14:53] Kenneth explains, the role of the TWikiTaskForces. [04 Sep 14:53] is this tom again? [04 Sep 14:53] Tom replies [04 Sep 14:53] Kenneth moves on toyes [04 Sep 14:53] oh forget about htis [04 Sep 14:54] peter did??? [04 Sep 14:54] --> Colas (n=cnahaboo@194.3.248.134) joined the channel [04 Sep 14:54] Hi all [04 Sep 14:54] no, Tom, they did not go to where the community wanted it to go [04 Sep 14:54] yep [04 Sep 14:54] hey colas [04 Sep 14:55] hi colas [04 Sep 14:56] anyone want to tell him that the deadline was here and now? [04 Sep 14:56] cant hear :( [04 Sep 14:56] can ypui hear Crawford [04 Sep 14:56] me either [04 Sep 14:56] yes.. delaying is *not* an option anymore [04 Sep 14:56] And peter's silence is part of the issue [04 Sep 14:58] years ago [04 Sep 14:59] is this just Peter+Tom on the phone or a (joinable)confcall ? [04 Sep 14:59] peter is not present at all atm [04 Sep 14:59] Colas: it's the same access codes as the governance calls [04 Sep 15:00] Colas: which country? [04 Sep 15:00] can i paste them? [04 Sep 15:00] France [04 Sep 15:00] Kenneth pasted the codes [04 Sep 15:00] sure [04 Sep 15:00] 16:59 < Lavr> USA X XXX XXXXXXX [04 Sep 15:00] 16:59 < Lavr> UK XXXXXXXXXXX [04 Sep 15:00] 16:59 < ColasNahaboo> hello all! [04 Sep 15:00] 16:59 < MichaelDaum> Hi Colas [04 Sep 15:00] 16:59 < Lavr> Germany XXXX XXXXXXX [04 Sep 15:00] here, yes [04 Sep 15:00] 17:00 < Lavr> NL XXXXX XXXXXX [04 Sep 15:00] thx [04 Sep 15:00] 17:00 < gmc> hey colas :) [04 Sep 15:00] 17:00 < Lavr> Denmark XXXXXXXX [04 Sep 15:00] 17:00 < Lavr> AU XXXX XXXXXX [04 Sep 15:00] 17:01 < Lavr> France XXX XXXXXXX [04 Sep 15:00] 17:01 -!- ktwilight_ [n=ktwiligh@87.66.206.249] has joined #twiki_release [04 Sep 15:00] 17:01 < ktwilight_> :) [04 Sep 15:00] 17:01 < gmc> Lavr: do you have a belgium number? :) [04 Sep 15:00] 17:01 < Lavr> PIN code needed is XXXXXXX [04 Sep 15:00] 17:02 < Lavr> Belgium XXXX XXXXX [04 Sep 15:02] cant hear anymore [04 Sep 15:02] hi Colas [04 Sep 15:02] ok Im am online [04 Sep 15:02] welcome [04 Sep 15:02] hi Crawford [04 Sep 15:03] Andre speaking. [04 Sep 15:03] can you hear Andre now? [04 Sep 15:03] ya, thanks [04 Sep 15:03] The BDFL is inacceptable. [04 Sep 15:03] Even the term is "burned". [04 Sep 15:03] The way Peter behaves is not "benevolent" [04 Sep 15:04] fyi, i'm _very_ eager to develop for this project, to continue things i started: blog, newsletter, ... but the 'non-discussable items' of bdfl and tm are non-discussable for me too.. [04 Sep 15:04] There is no magical "self-healing". [04 Sep 15:04] It was a big pain to "heal". [04 Sep 15:04] I agree, no change cna happen if conditions do not change [04 Sep 15:04] strong opposition against the whole concept of the BDFL in here [04 Sep 15:04] Peter should concentrate on TWiki.net. [04 Sep 15:05] Peter should leave TWiki.org and support it non-personal. [04 Sep 15:05] I'l just paste wikipedia to stress out the fact Benevolent is a requirement: [04 Sep 15:05] The term Benevolent Dictator was later popularized by Eric Raymond's essay Homesteading the Noosphere.[3] Among other topics related to hacker culture, Raymond elaborates on how the nature of open source forces the "dictatorship" to keep itself benevolent, since a strong disagreement can lead to the forking of the project under the rule of new leaders. [04 Sep 15:05] who's talking atm btw, andre? [04 Sep 15:05] ya [04 Sep 15:05] yes, it's Andrea [04 Sep 15:05] He shall step back. [04 Sep 15:05] Andre sorry [04 Sep 15:06] You have to be backed up. Peter is not. [04 Sep 15:06] Take the glory. [04 Sep 15:06] Concentrate on Twiki.net [04 Sep 15:06] for me I am for the BDFL concept. But I recognize that Peter do not act in a way that can make it successful in this case [04 Sep 15:06] and step back off twiki.org [04 Sep 15:06] http://www.ubuntu.com/community/leadership-conduct [04 Sep 15:06] Martin is now speaking [04 Sep 15:07] MartinSeibert, good point [04 Sep 15:07] this actions needed to happen _by_ now [04 Sep 15:08] BDFL and TWik in conjunction will cause people in the project to womit because of what happend so far. [04 Sep 15:08] Many of us have made those private pleas with peter over the past couple of years. [04 Sep 15:08] Even though BDFL in itself is concept that might work [04 Sep 15:09] I agree. It is too late now for Peter as BDFL to work. [04 Sep 15:09] BDFL is dependent on the character of the individual [04 Sep 15:09] and peter has not displayed those characteristics [04 Sep 15:09] Adam is now speaking. [04 Sep 15:10] if they were there, this would never have been a question. [04 Sep 15:10] what was the q? [04 Sep 15:11] right on k! [04 Sep 15:12] Eugen [04 Sep 15:12] Michael is speaking [04 Sep 15:13] but I guess you can't hear him [04 Sep 15:13] too quiet [04 Sep 15:13] cant hear anymore [04 Sep 15:14] Michael just stressed the fact that the athmosphere has dropped down to sub-zero level [04 Sep 15:14] including to tell some us a mad extremeists [04 Sep 15:14] Martin is answering that it might be a necessary pain to go through [04 Sep 15:15] Tom again [04 Sep 15:15] --> Colas (n=cnahaboo@194.3.248.134) joined the channel [04 Sep 15:17] everone except twiki.net realize the seriousness of the situation... [04 Sep 15:18] TWiki.net has built it's business plan around the viability of an OS community. [04 Sep 15:18] was did sven say? [04 Sep 15:18] it should be it's business to have understood the state of this community better. [04 Sep 15:18] this is not new news [04 Sep 15:18] didnt get it [04 Sep 15:18] ah, ok [04 Sep 15:18] yes, they should have [04 Sep 15:19] Martin is speaking [04 Sep 15:19] * Colas is a bit frightened that Tom? was so unaware of the Twiki.org community mood [04 Sep 15:19] But what is the benefit of a fork for .net? [04 Sep 15:19] Colas, y, thats why i said what i did [04 Sep 15:19] * Babar guesses Tom is the CEO, and chairmap of t.n, he just relies on Peter for these kind of feedbacks [04 Sep 15:20] s/chairmap/chairman/ [04 Sep 15:21] good point, it is hard to trust tom is being honest too [04 Sep 15:21] this shows the problem of having peter as the only conduit between community and twiki.net.. [04 Sep 15:21] true [04 Sep 15:21] apparently, things have been misreprented to the rest of twiki.net.. [04 Sep 15:21] I think that Peter deceives himself and sincerly belives there is no big problem [04 Sep 15:22] pitty? its insulting [04 Sep 15:22] was not intended from me [04 Sep 15:22] I wanted to say schade [04 Sep 15:22] ya [04 Sep 15:22] But delaying this discussion is NOT an OK solution... [04 Sep 15:22] pitty is the right word [04 Sep 15:22] as it's been made very clear that this was to be addressed by now. [04 Sep 15:22] for schade [04 Sep 15:23] ok [04 Sep 15:23] more delaying :( [04 Sep 15:23] we've had too much of that already :( [04 Sep 15:23] CDot stresses out that it's important that Tom gets the exact feeling of the community [04 Sep 15:24] But the value of that brand is based on the work of the community, NOT what twiki.net has brought to it. [04 Sep 15:24] (have to run off to some errands, will be listening on the phone though) [04 Sep 15:25] so TWiki.net's claim to the unilaterial right to control that "assest" is illegitimate. [04 Sep 15:26] This is correct. [04 Sep 15:27] The value of "TWiki" is based on the contribution of the community. [04 Sep 15:27] it should be possible to find a solution within one "american" workday [04 Sep 15:27] otherwise we will loose a whole day in berlin [04 Sep 15:27] So TWiki.net should be fairly motivated to come up with trademark arrangement that works for community. [04 Sep 15:28] If they turned over trademark ownership to non-profit, they would still have exclusive right to twiki.net domain. [04 Sep 15:29] i would suggest that tom should be staying for tomorrow [04 Sep 15:29] unlikely [04 Sep 15:29] his flight is booked [04 Sep 15:29] :-( [04 Sep 15:29] so [04 Sep 15:29] i changed my flights [04 Sep 15:29] he can too [04 Sep 15:29] he's not alone there [04 Sep 15:29] either its a priority for his business [04 Sep 15:29] or its not [04 Sep 15:30] its a nice clear message if he does not choose to stay [04 Sep 15:30] * Babar would say it's highly dependent of the outcome of the proposal. [04 Sep 15:30] the more so now that Peter's not there in person... [04 Sep 15:30] its pretty simple - we're looking for solid and beleiveable commitments from twiki.net that they care about us [04 Sep 15:30] leaving mid way, is not that [04 Sep 15:31] good point. [04 Sep 15:31] if someone there could voice it? [04 Sep 15:32] If the BDFL's sole authority is to withdraw the right to use the trademark, that would perhaps be OK [04 Sep 15:32] not to me [04 Sep 15:33] Eugen just said we (the communinty) need to discuss what the BDFL is allowed to decide not the other way round [04 Sep 15:37] +1 [04 Sep 15:39] too quiet :/ [04 Sep 15:39] everyone too quiet? [04 Sep 15:39] seems like just on microphone is working properly [04 Sep 15:39] come y [04 Sep 15:40] some [04 Sep 15:40] cdot's oftent too quiet [04 Sep 15:40] CDot is far away from the mic. [04 Sep 15:40] and the second mic doesn't work [04 Sep 15:40] like Micheal Dauem, Arthur and me [04 Sep 15:40] and andre [04 Sep 15:40] y, they are quiet [04 Sep 15:41] but Andre is loud enough to cover the distance :) [04 Sep 15:41] grin [04 Sep 15:42] Nor to be told later that we have to pay a fee to use the name "TWiki". [04 Sep 15:45] CDot and other have already given a HUGE amount to TWiki. [04 Sep 15:45] That he or Micha or others have been holding some back in recent months is in direct response to peter's and twiki.net's actions. [04 Sep 15:46] TWiki is a platform, like linux [04 Sep 15:46] people are free to develop closed source linux apps [04 Sep 15:48] matin just made a very good point [04 Sep 15:48] we are happy to contribute code that other would sell [04 Sep 15:48] But this discussion was important to clarify some points to Tom. [04 Sep 15:48] yep, very clear pointy by Martin [04 Sep 15:48] regarding the difference in the standards peter is held to. [04 Sep 15:49] based on his insistence to control and personally exploit the trademark [04 Sep 15:49] (i mean exploit here in neutral sense) [04 Sep 15:50] who's talking? [04 Sep 15:50] koen i think [04 Sep 15:50] right, it´s not a one man show [04 Sep 15:51] Isnt Twiki a fork of Joswiki anyways at the start? [04 Sep 15:51] correct [04 Sep 15:51] Right. The major value of the TWiki name derives from the work on the "commons" [04 Sep 15:51] AndreU, can you say that please : Isnt Twiki a fork of Joswiki anyways at the start? [04 Sep 15:52] Capitalizing on that value at this point should only be done under very restricted terms. [04 Sep 15:52] which is not to say that it can not be done. [04 Sep 15:52] when I have the chance I will do [04 Sep 15:53] is this regarding the governance proposal? [04 Sep 15:54] they forked, and then jos used twiki in the end, because the fork was good [04 Sep 15:55] as Linus puts it: forks are good [04 Sep 15:55] (which doesn't mean at all I'm in favor of one here) [04 Sep 15:58] Thanks for doing that Lavr! [04 Sep 16:02] The basic issue around BDFL as a title is that in communities where it is used, it is based on consensus of group. [04 Sep 16:02] i.e. if you have to ask for the title, you have not earned. [04 Sep 16:02] And if you demand the title, you are not deserving. [04 Sep 16:02] true [04 Sep 16:03] No one disputes he can represent the community as "TWiki Founder" [04 Sep 16:03] but that title carries no implied authority [04 Sep 16:03] unlike BDFL [04 Sep 16:03] BDFL implies significant authority [04 Sep 16:03] and all evidence is that that is how Peter view it. [04 Sep 16:04] But at this point, the community has made it quite clear that that is not acceptable. [04 Sep 16:05] Yes, the issue is under what conditions can peter over-rule community [04 Sep 16:06] I think that there would be community support for a permanent place for peter on the board. [04 Sep 16:06] But not being able to override the board. [04 Sep 16:06] * Babar thinks people are missing the point, but I'll express it right afterwards [04 Sep 16:07] I would voice one other point about this "BDFL" title. [04 Sep 16:07] People seem to suggest that the title is ok if we can define it as we see fit. [04 Sep 16:08] I would say that a title must be real [04 Sep 16:08] else it should not be used [04 Sep 16:08] exactly [04 Sep 16:08] to do otherwise cheapens our language [04 Sep 16:10] No. The titles we use should have integrity. [04 Sep 16:12] If their business plan is based on requiring peter to have a role that is not acceptable to the community, that is problem with their business plan, not the community. [04 Sep 16:12] thatas worth someone saying [04 Sep 16:14] --> mzeecedric (i=58431bc4@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-476fd4a66fc9e76b) joined the channel [04 Sep 16:15] the foundation is about putting the projec tin the community's hands, for me [04 Sep 16:15] IMO the trademarks should be held by an existing foundation like SPI or FSF [04 Sep 16:16] thats the foundation bit i think is important [04 Sep 16:16] too quiet? [04 Sep 16:16] he's coming closer to the mic [04 Sep 16:17] better? [04 Sep 16:17] y, ta [04 Sep 16:17] The burden of responsibility for the community's slow process over past couple of years lies directly on peter [04 Sep 16:18] and his unwillingness to address the governance questions. [04 Sep 16:18] or trying to subvert such discussions. [04 Sep 16:19] Tom had to answer a phone call [04 Sep 16:19] the roadmap would've been implemented 6 months ago if it weren't for all this [04 Sep 16:19] Yes, the community was slow in developing roadmap directly because of peter's effort to subvert that process [04 Sep 16:19] more than 6 months [04 Sep 16:21] Crawford first posted the TWikiRoadMap topic in Oct of 2004 [04 Sep 16:23] I tried to jumpstart the process of forming a community-sanctioned TWikiRoadMap in novermber 2004 [04 Sep 16:23] And that was one of the occasions that peter killed off community decision making. [04 Sep 16:24] that was nearly 4 years ago! [04 Sep 16:24] where would be we be now if he had embraced this effort to community enpowerment rather than ignoring/subverting it. [04 Sep 16:24] ?! [04 Sep 16:25] a long way along [04 Sep 16:28] I think very few of us WANT a fork/. [04 Sep 16:28] yes, i'm still on phone. [04 Sep 16:28] colas om the phone [04 Sep 16:28] if we had wanted to fork, we would have done so a long time ago [04 Sep 16:28] We still want, as we have all along for peter to come around. [04 Sep 16:28] and be part of the community, rather than hold over it. [04 Sep 16:32] That's right, k. [04 Sep 16:36] hard to follow atm [04 Sep 16:36] yep [04 Sep 16:36] passive veto, rather than active veto [04 Sep 16:36] which is worse [04 Sep 16:37] missing sugar [04 Sep 16:37] Tom, one significant example where Peter vetoed by not supporting was the development of TWikiRoadMap [04 Sep 16:37] or the adding of Web 2.0 to the 'mission' [04 Sep 16:37] yep [04 Sep 16:39] sorry, the beamer screen isn't visible [04 Sep 16:40] ah [04 Sep 16:40] CDot: shall I make it more center? [04 Sep 16:41] central [04 Sep 16:42] Babar: yes :) [04 Sep 16:42] i find it hard to interject verbally.. so if anyone cares about my opinion :)) [04 Sep 16:42] no. [04 Sep 16:43] Yes, i could support peter having permanent position. [04 Sep 16:43] But not veto. [04 Sep 16:45] Agreed. he should not always be chairman [04 Sep 16:46] too far away, unhearable [04 Sep 16:50] in 2004 [04 Sep 16:55] who's shouting? [04 Sep 16:55] Eugen [04 Sep 16:55] aha [04 Sep 16:55] what is he shouting? [04 Sep 16:55] let them have kacke [04 Sep 16:55] Good job Tom. [04 Sep 16:56] hi? [04 Sep 16:56] i'm sorry i'm in a rtain, in a 'silent' coupe [04 Sep 16:56] bye, discussions ok with me [04 Sep 16:56] train [04 Sep 16:57] Excellent! [04 Sep 16:57] Thank you Tom. [04 Sep 16:57] Jens Hansen is speaking [04 Sep 16:57] i thikn anything i want to say has been said, basically [04 Sep 16:57] i wlil see all tomorrow afternoon [04 Sep 16:57] irl [04 Sep 17:00] agree with k! but will not work as unpaid twiki.,net employee [04 Sep 17:02] on the server it is emblematic [04 Sep 17:03] of his innability to dlegate [04 Sep 17:03] bye all! [04 Sep 17:03] thanks guys for having me :) [04 Sep 17:03] bye all [04 Sep 17:03] see you tomoorow :) [04 Sep 20:57] --> Lynnwood (n=lynnwood@twiki/developer/lynnwood) joined the channel [04 Sep 20:57] --> SvenDowideit__ (n=SvenDowi@124-171-23-93.dyn.iinet.net.au) joined the channel [04 Sep 21:44] *** You connected [04 Sep 21:57] *** You connected [04 Sep 22:02] --> SvenDowideit1 (n=SvenDowi@twiki/developer/SvenDowideit) joined the channel [04 Sep 22:51] --> AndreU (n=AndreU@88.128.90.217) joined the channel [04 Sep 23:35] *** You connected [04 Sep 23:45] *** You connected [05 Sep 00:12] *** You connected [05 Sep 00:33] *** You connected [05 Sep 00:38] --> Colas_ (n=cnahaboo@194.3.248.134) joined the channel [05 Sep 01:12] *** You connected [05 Sep 02:22] --> SvenDowideit_ (n=SvenDowi@twiki/developer/SvenDowideit) joined the channel [05 Sep 02:25] --> SvenDowideit (n=SvenDowi@twiki/developer/SvenDowideit) joined the channel [05 Sep 02:39] *** You connected [05 Sep 05:13] --> SvenDowideit1 (n=SvenDowi@twiki/developer/SvenDowideit) joined the channel [05 Sep 05:13] --> SvenDowideit__ (n=SvenDowi@124-171-26-246.dyn.iinet.net.au) joined the channel [05 Sep 06:10] *** You connected [05 Sep 09:44] --> AndreU (n=AndreU@tmo-116-2.customers.d1-online.com) joined the channel [05 Sep 09:45] --> CDot (n=Crawford@tmo-116-2.customers.d1-online.com) joined the channel [05 Sep 09:45] moin [05 Sep 09:48] Hi there. :) [05 Sep 09:48] TWikiGovernanceConsolidated was updated. Toms reply to the discussion yesterday was added. [05 Sep 09:48] HI Markus. [05 Sep 09:49] --> Lavr (n=88b69e81@cpe.atm2-0-103309.0x3ef3d076.albnxx13.customer.tele.dk) joined the channel [05 Sep 09:50] f. regarding download mechanisms/marketing on the .org page, there should be two boxes of equal size, one for TWiki.org download links, one for TWIKI.NET links, next to each other. All other current non-open source distributions should be moved to the existing OtherTWikiDistributions page. We recognize that this point has not been discussed yet and are willing to engage in dialog on this topic. [05 Sep 09:50] --> carlo__ (n=chatzill@tmo-116-2.customers.d1-online.com) joined the channel [05 Sep 09:50] that would be a no from me [05 Sep 09:50] g. we are troubled by current inconsistencies in how the community views branding guidelines, and while we stand by our decision to allow royalty-free use of the trademark for commercial and non-commercial purposes, we propose that some branding questions (those not covered by the terms above) be determined upon based on the overall governance mechanism that we ultimately agree on. As a specific example, we do not believe that [05 Sep 09:50] current Wikiring branding actions on plug-ins have been adequately discussed or confirmed by the community. [05 Sep 09:50] eugen disagrees on 1f [05 Sep 09:50] requires Lavr to respond [05 Sep 09:51] i have mailed him about it [05 Sep 09:51] c. Peter Thoeny has a permanent seat in the TWiki Community Council (or other primary governing body that we may ultimately agree on) [05 Sep 09:51] is a no [05 Sep 09:52] eugen says: who writes a plugin should be able to brand it [05 Sep 09:53] conference call line should be open now. [05 Sep 09:53] sven reher says: in general good step forward by twiki.net/peter [05 Sep 09:54] sven reher says: but depends on the specific power being granted [05 Sep 09:54] DId anybody of you already dialed in? [05 Sep 09:55] I didn't. (maybe later) [05 Sep 09:55] Jens says: looks like what we've asked for [05 Sep 09:55] not sure if enough to get up to speed [05 Sep 09:55] we hear you Sven. [05 Sep 09:56] Jens says: dont think download issue and press release is in the communitys interest [05 Sep 09:56] Jens says: peter leaves gaps that we need to fill up [05 Sep 09:57] ok, you guys are too quiet [05 Sep 09:57] Jens says: want just the twiki.org download [05 Sep 09:57] Jens says: need to push .net out of the download page [05 Sep 09:57] i argee [05 Sep 09:57] need neutral contact details, neutral emails [05 Sep 09:57] Jens says: download and contact must be neutral [05 Sep 09:57] i prefered my installers not to be there too [05 Sep 09:57] Jens says: showstopper to agree on [05 Sep 09:58] as I don't want to imply they are better than the open source tgz [05 Sep 09:58] Stephane doesnt voice an opinion [05 Sep 09:58] +1 from me (links to alternatives should suffice) [05 Sep 09:58] Matthias says: what means 1d? [05 Sep 09:58] Sven D. The ONLY problem with installers is that they are links to distributions for which there are no available sources. Your original links including the logos were correct according to the guidelines that we decided beginning of 2008. [05 Sep 09:59] Matthias says: totally unclear and potentially dangerous [05 Sep 09:59] y, so there is no problem [05 Sep 09:59] But this is not important in this context and I have faith that you will give us the sources [05 Sep 09:59] i am not obligated to upload the source [05 Sep 09:59] i can choose to do so, but that is a different story [05 Sep 10:00] CDot says: switch of trademark from peter to twiki.net is potentially dangerous for the community [05 Sep 10:00] correct [05 Sep 10:00] +1 [05 Sep 10:00] that is what i posted above tom's email [05 Sep 10:01] CDot says: ambigous feelings 'bout download page and newsletter/press [05 Sep 10:01] can we move the mic closer to the speaker? [05 Sep 10:01] its quietr than yesterday [05 Sep 10:01] CDot says: must be bound to community decision [05 Sep 10:01] CDot says: community need to have say on it [05 Sep 10:01] CDot says: TCC issue is critical [05 Sep 10:02] CDot says: need to split between operational ond governance issue [05 Sep 10:02] I'd move additional (branded) downloads to another web to make clear that they're branded and only link to them. [05 Sep 10:02] i'd be very happy to do that yes [05 Sep 10:02] (this is for the installers, not the plugins) [05 Sep 10:02] CDot says: peter should if at all in the governance part( eg a foundation) [05 Sep 10:03] MichealDaum says: percieves the trademark owned by .net as a big danger if .net goes bankrpt [05 Sep 10:04] and for the donated servers [05 Sep 10:04] MichealDaum says: 1d is totally unclear. no idea what it means [05 Sep 10:04] Doesn't t.n share the trademark with Peter the way it reads (Peter Thoeny, TWiki.net)? [05 Sep 10:04] the creditors suddenly get $100,000 of servers [05 Sep 10:04] --> MartinSeibert (n=martinse@tmo-116-2.customers.d1-online.com) joined the channel [05 Sep 10:04] Lavr, did you get my email? [05 Sep 10:05] MichealDaum says: expect that on the suggested licencesing peter found allow something like TWikiFoundation [05 Sep 10:05] Sven I do not care for discussing your download links. I will let others enforce our rules on that. I do not care [05 Sep 10:05] Michael talking. [05 Sep 10:05] wont not found [05 Sep 10:05] because of branding [05 Sep 10:06] MichealDaum says: on wikiring branding [05 Sep 10:06] Has trouble believing, that TWiki-foundation will be possible. Doubts that fund raising will be possible. [05 Sep 10:06] MichealDaum says: had this discussion already [05 Sep 10:06] Lavr, you brought up and supported what i would suggest is a mis-representation [05 Sep 10:06] MichealDaum says: TCC all depends on the structure we end up [05 Sep 10:06] There is a fear, that Peter will work on and totally rely on the decisions of the community. [05 Sep 10:06] and as i'm remote, i think thats unhelpful [05 Sep 10:07] Kenneth cannot be defined as tie-breaker. [05 Sep 10:07] MichealDaum says: president needs be always present [05 Sep 10:07] needs to be elected [05 Sep 10:07] Kenneth says: my name should not be mentioned [05 Sep 10:07] Carlo speaking [05 Sep 10:08] Has problems with download link. [05 Sep 10:08] Not okay. [05 Sep 10:08] carlo: mixed thing, problems with download link, shows we are one commercial entity [05 Sep 10:08] will confuse users [05 Sep 10:08] Impacts of the licence issue. [05 Sep 10:08] Will a foundation be possible. [05 Sep 10:08] problem with 1.e when the entity is there to sewrve the community [05 Sep 10:08] Recitation of TWiki always is a big problem. [05 Sep 10:09] carlo: is it a trademark of PTh or twiki.net? [05 Sep 10:09] Andre speaking [05 Sep 10:09] y, tis quiet :) [05 Sep 10:09] AndreU: what is "active community" in 1.a [05 Sep 10:09] He is trying. :-) [05 Sep 10:09] can you hear now? [05 Sep 10:09] ya - ish [05 Sep 10:10] it is quietr than yesterday [05 Sep 10:10] AndreU, good point [05 Sep 10:10] oss and gpl is not limited to active contributors [05 Sep 10:10] users already feel that twiki is run by twiki.net; must be a neutral platform [05 Sep 10:10] Andre says: twiki.org needs be percieved as independent [05 Sep 10:10] There should not be any dependence to TWiki.net. [05 Sep 10:10] Download page is a problem. [05 Sep 10:10] Andre says:+1 on download link [05 Sep 10:11] It should not look as if TWiki.net is the only entity. [05 Sep 10:11] Andre says: infrastructure issue is missing, like servers [05 Sep 10:11] Who is running the servers? [05 Sep 10:11] Andre says: press releases unclear [05 Sep 10:11] Who writes the press releases. [05 Sep 10:11] We need access to the servers. [05 Sep 10:11] who get mentionend for what [05 Sep 10:11] Eugen asking something. [05 Sep 10:12] Oliver says: no new additions [05 Sep 10:12] Eugen said he will not add anything, if the trademark thing is not bulletproof. [05 Sep 10:12] Oliver says: cant live with 1c [05 Sep 10:12] Oliver says: 1d too blurry [05 Sep 10:13] Oliver says: TWikiFoundation wont be allowed by this terms [05 Sep 10:13] Stephane speaking. [05 Sep 10:13] Peter has made a big step. [05 Sep 10:13] OliverR says: peter made big step [05 Sep 10:13] But it is still a negotiation. [05 Sep 10:13] OliverR says: who owns .org must be clear [05 Sep 10:14] Looks like haggeling. [05 Sep 10:14] OliverR says: in the end it appears like it run by peter/net == not good [05 Sep 10:14] This is not the way we want it. [05 Sep 10:14] OliverR says: need to find agreement [05 Sep 10:14] Both sides should agree, though. [05 Sep 10:14] OliverR says: they made huge concessions [05 Sep 10:15] Arthur said: positive feedback [05 Sep 10:15] Arthur said: no problems with mentioning the tradmark owner [05 Sep 10:15] Arthur said: that is quiet normal [05 Sep 10:15] Peter shall be mentioned as the owner of the trademark. [05 Sep 10:16] Arthur said: need to rethink how to mention commercial entities and how we allow them to brand their contributions [05 Sep 10:16] Arthur said: problematic is point 2c [05 Sep 10:17] Arthur said: on permant seat: seems to be a misunderstanding [05 Sep 10:17] Peter should rather not be in the operations. [05 Sep 10:17] Arthur said: peter not in operation. rather in governance body [05 Sep 10:17] Arthur said: need to clarify this today [05 Sep 10:17] Is anybody logging all this and uploading it to TWiki.org? [05 Sep 10:17] me [05 Sep 10:18] Arthur said: community lead needs to be clear. no assignments [05 Sep 10:18] Arthur said: need elections [05 Sep 10:18] Nobody may assign anybody. [05 Sep 10:18] There has to be a voting. [05 Sep 10:18] Arthur said: we need make clear that we run things democratically [05 Sep 10:19] Martin says: surprised by the concessions made by peter which is positive [05 Sep 10:19] 1a is actually a dealbreaker [05 Sep 10:19] Martin says: I like that we are allowed to use TWiki for our services [05 Sep 10:19] --> SopanShewale (n=chatzill@59.90.32.1) joined the channel [05 Sep 10:19] --> Babar (n=babar@tmo-116-2.customers.d1-online.com) joined the channel [05 Sep 10:19] when you consider that twiki is a gpl project, the trademark needs to be gpl free - a concept that is well defined by debian [05 Sep 10:20] Martin says: will peter follow the rules of a democratic board [05 Sep 10:20] Martin says: doubts whether Peter will follow rules made up in a democratic process. [05 Sep 10:20] Martin says: will he act accordingly if such a board makes a decision [05 Sep 10:20] Martin says: that he has massive doubts about it [05 Sep 10:20] MartinSeibert, good point [05 Sep 10:21] Martin: peter will come back and haggle [05 Sep 10:21] its about a moral 'rights' thing [05 Sep 10:21] Martin says: eg if the community agrees on setting up a foundation [05 Sep 10:21] is irc visible? [05 Sep 10:21] Martin says: fears that peter will block it [05 Sep 10:21] sven: dont know [05 Sep 10:21] IRC is visible but too far away for me to see [05 Sep 10:21] it is, but nobody's reading :) [05 Sep 10:21] giggle [05 Sep 10:22] IRC is on the wall, but its quite small. [05 Sep 10:22] Martin says: need to convince inactive outsiders/lurkers [05 Sep 10:22] Some have it on their laptops. [05 Sep 10:22] maybe we should make irc more central? [05 Sep 10:22] already proposed taht yesterday, but... [05 Sep 10:22] according to he keyboard noises. ;) [05 Sep 10:22] Martin: shy people, who are concerned that their contributions will be kidnapped by t.n, will not join the community [05 Sep 10:22] it would be good - so its available for others to 'speak' to the summit [05 Sep 10:22] without needing to be on the fone [05 Sep 10:23] Martin says: martin takes back his idea of giving peter a permanent seat in daily action board [05 Sep 10:23] Kenneth now. [05 Sep 10:23] adam is also taking flipchart notes [05 Sep 10:23] Expected a simple "no" [05 Sep 10:23] Kenneth said: hasn't aspect nanything like this [05 Sep 10:23] Kenneth did not expected anything of this. [05 Sep 10:23] Kenneth said:very good move to avoid the fork [05 Sep 10:23] He will not accept it as it is. [05 Sep 10:23] Cannot accept it as it is. [05 Sep 10:23] Kenneth: will not accept the rest of it; showstopper problems [05 Sep 10:23] Kenneth said: but: not acceptable as it is [05 Sep 10:23] 1a is actually worse [05 Sep 10:23] cuold we agree on one person taking notes? [05 Sep 10:23] 1c is a problem. [05 Sep 10:23] Kenneth said: 1c is massive showstopper [05 Sep 10:24] and note Martin, carlo and Oliver stating the same? :) [05 Sep 10:24] No. Everybody can post. That's gut. [05 Sep 10:24] Babar: I don't mind the redundancy ;) [05 Sep 10:24] good. [05 Sep 10:24] Kenneth said: to open for interpretation [05 Sep 10:24] hello all [05 Sep 10:24] The link is a problem. [05 Sep 10:24] hi Colas_ [05 Sep 10:24] Kenneth said: the pure word TWiki must always lead to .org [05 Sep 10:24] Hello All [05 Sep 10:24] Links shall go to Twiki.org. [05 Sep 10:24] Colas: see Codev.GovernanceConsolidated [05 Sep 10:24] No links to Twiki.net [05 Sep 10:24] Hi Colas. [05 Sep 10:24] Kenneth said: this is not negotioable [05 Sep 10:24] Hello Sopan. [05 Sep 10:24] The download page is a problem for Kenneth. [05 Sep 10:25] What we have today is okay. [05 Sep 10:25] Kenneth said: 1+ on the download remarks made by others [05 Sep 10:25] Commercial ones are okay. [05 Sep 10:25] Kenneth: There is a recent guideline for the Downloadpage. [05 Sep 10:25] Kenneth said: no equally sized download on official org page for closed source [05 Sep 10:25] Do not face minor issues. [05 Sep 10:25] (online) [05 Sep 10:25] Kenneth said: lets stick together [05 Sep 10:26] Kenneth said: give something for something [05 Sep 10:26] Basic principle: something for something. [05 Sep 10:26] mmm [05 Sep 10:26] Server access: Can be done by TWiki.net [05 Sep 10:26] except that we have been forced to use their server&hosting [05 Sep 10:26] Kenneth said: if they are paying al the servers and stuff I'm fine with having their links somewhere [05 Sep 10:27] Kenneth said: I dont want exlusivity on servers [05 Sep 10:27] other companies have offered for much less of a 'something' [05 Sep 10:27] Mirroring should be possible. [05 Sep 10:27] the proble is Peter has, by not delegating, chosen a very expensive solution for hosting [05 Sep 10:27] We do not need to ask Peter for it. [05 Sep 10:27] Kenneth said: we should be able to mirror servers if we (the community) want to [05 Sep 10:27] He has to accept that. [05 Sep 10:27] Peter may not block anything any more. [05 Sep 10:27] mirroring: +1 [05 Sep 10:27] Kenneth said:we (the community) can do what ever we want once the BDFL concept is history [05 Sep 10:28] Kenneth said: I dont want another WikiRing vs. .net battle [05 Sep 10:28] Kenneth said: this is just a licence issue [05 Sep 10:29] Kenneth said: dont like to see my name next to an appointed president [05 Sep 10:29] Kenneth said: must be elected [05 Sep 10:29] Kenneth said: you elect a new chairmen everytime you elect a new council or what so ever [05 Sep 10:30] adam: fantastic proposal [05 Sep 10:30] everyone got what they want [05 Sep 10:30] AdamHyde speaking. [05 Sep 10:30] community has a lot to thank tom for [05 Sep 10:30] Fantastic result. [05 Sep 10:30] Adam said: can work it out on this base [05 Sep 10:30] Still bits and pieces. [05 Sep 10:31] Adam said: opens up the way forward [05 Sep 10:31] It is in nobodies interest to have a fork. [05 Sep 10:31] Adam said: peter should be recognized as founder [05 Sep 10:31] adam says it's really necessary for the community to go forward based on this resonnable proposition [05 Sep 10:31] Positive fashion. [05 Sep 10:31] Adam said: he should be able to leverage this [05 Sep 10:31] Sven speaking. [05 Sep 10:32] over the phone. [05 Sep 10:32] Sven said: actually 1a is the biggest problem of all [05 Sep 10:32] 1.a says debian, ubuntu etc can't create an installer [05 Sep 10:32] not part of the active community [05 Sep 10:32] Has a problem with "active" in the licence description. [05 Sep 10:32] Sven said: becuase it only give alllowance to the community no to eg. ubuntu [05 Sep 10:32] No restriction on Trademark and Logo. [05 Sep 10:32] not sure if I get this right [05 Sep 10:33] Sven said: control over logo is no good [05 Sep 10:33] Sven says: had to do the logo back in 2001 to avoid falling into the same iceweasel / firefox issues [05 Sep 10:33] and it seems we're back in the same problem [05 Sep 10:34] Sven said: it is either .org or nothing [05 Sep 10:34] Sven said: on the dl page [05 Sep 10:34] Sven said: whatever [05 Sep 10:35] Sven said: you guys have addressed most of it already [05 Sep 10:35] Is anybody else on the line. [05 Sep 10:35] Colas is on the line, so he said [05 Sep 10:35] Sven wants to have a real open source project. [05 Sep 10:35] Sven said: twiki has never been a real opensource because of some legal issues [05 Sep 10:35] colas, are you in the call? [05 Sep 10:35] He wants to be completely free. [05 Sep 10:35] (I am reading Tom proposal...) [05 Sep 10:36] I have to add something: Is anybody sure, that TWiki.net has not collected any funds yet and put it in their pocket? That is a valid question, that TWiki.net has to answer as long as people think, that Twiki.org is Twiki.net. [05 Sep 10:36] CDot, I am listening [05 Sep 10:37] --> StephaneOnE90 (n=Stephane@1.121.113.82.net.de.o2.com) joined the channel [05 Sep 10:37] MartinSeibert, exactly [05 Sep 10:37] confusion of "who am I donating to" continues [05 Sep 10:37] Eugen again. [05 Sep 10:38] Martin again: big problem if sun migh think they are contributing/ sponsering the open source community but in fact sponsor a commercial entitiy like .net [05 Sep 10:38] Tom mail is quite a progress! [05 Sep 10:38] yes. i don't see why it would be acceptable for the oss community to be competed against by twiki.net [05 Sep 10:38] Eugen: All links need to go to www.twiki.org. [05 Sep 10:39] agreed [05 Sep 10:39] +1 [05 Sep 10:39] +1 [05 Sep 10:39] +1 for no links [05 Sep 10:39] _No_ links at all? [05 Sep 10:39] +1 [05 Sep 10:40] i don't need it [05 Sep 10:40] It should be optional. [05 Sep 10:40] i only have it because users complained [05 Sep 10:40] It is different now than in Rome. In Rome Twiki.net had the benefit of the doubt [05 Sep 10:40] Now we see the problems it brings [05 Sep 10:40] colas, please speak up on the call so we can all hear your view [05 Sep 10:40] and because i did not want t.n to be the only options [05 Sep 10:40] need to hear you [05 Sep 10:40] for me, the only reason is what he's saying now: if they pay for the t.o servers and admins, then it's ok. like sourceforge does [05 Sep 10:40] Others may need it... they use google, t.n/WikiRing/ACME comes up first, ... [05 Sep 10:40] TWiki is a registered trademark of TWiki founder Peter Thoeney, TWiki.org [05 Sep 10:41] You can fork the name [05 Sep 10:41] Michael Daum: TWiki.net should not have a special seat. [05 Sep 10:41] Netscape / Mozilla, Red Hat / Fedora, ... [05 Sep 10:41] also, they're always mentionning Ubuntu. Ubuntu is owned by Canonical, not Ubuntu.com or whatever. [05 Sep 10:41] i may have to on the debian package - i've avoided discussing it and the logo specifically because it'll be alot of pain [05 Sep 10:41] micha: twiki.net wants special rights. Why should they have a genuine advantage in the ecosystem? (extrawurst) [05 Sep 10:41] Colas: The number to dial in is: XXX XXXXXXX [05 Sep 10:42] MartinSeibert, I am online [05 Sep 10:42] But they can fork because they're all much bigger entities who are able to maintain this... cf. TrueCrypt/RealCrypt(Mandriva)... that's a PITA. [05 Sep 10:42] Trying to understand the backlog before speaking [05 Sep 10:42] Colas_: don't need to. your impressions are what matters :) [05 Sep 10:42] Pin-code: XXXXXXX [05 Sep 10:43] carlo__: can we really represent the community? [05 Sep 10:43] eugen: everyone had a chance, open fone line [05 Sep 10:44] micha: assembly is incomplete, this group has no mandate for a vote [05 Sep 10:44] US toll free: 1866 6828496 [05 Sep 10:45] StephaneOnE90: you haven't used your right to speak, do you want to pass? [05 Sep 10:45] colas: I'll write [05 Sep 10:46] I think the important point is that the newcomers feel at ease to invest themselves in twiki.org [05 Sep 10:46] we should not miss this opportunity to new blood [05 Sep 10:46] and grow twiki critical mass [05 Sep 10:47] Of course it must not piss off Sven, CDot, Kenneth [05 Sep 10:47] but it is an urgent matter [05 Sep 10:47] let's change things now so people are not turned away [05 Sep 10:47] I think Tom email is quite good [05 Sep 10:48] but what is important is how newcomers perceive things [05 Sep 10:48] us "oldtimers" are a bit too drown with all the history [05 Sep 10:49] Colas- you have raised good points [05 Sep 10:49] the worst of the worst would be like past time, do 90% of decisions, and do nothing waiting for agreements of the last 10% [05 Sep 10:49] we NEEED more active community members (devs, testers, designers, webmasters, ...) [05 Sep 10:51] I will essentially vote for "whatever gets the most vote of active people" [05 Sep 10:52] Adam said: they ame have way [05 Sep 10:52] *** You connected [05 Sep 10:52] Adam said: thats positive [05 Sep 10:53] Adam said: it is not a contraact we have to sign [05 Sep 10:53] --> MartinSeibert5 (n=martinse@tmo-116-2.customers.d1-online.com) joined the channel [05 Sep 10:53] Adam said: lets take it and work out the details [05 Sep 10:54] CDot: this paper is paying games [05 Sep 10:55] CDot said: lets focus on if the paper answered our questions [05 Sep 10:55] CDot: let's focus on whether the questions we have asked yesterday have been answered by the mail we got. [05 Sep 10:56] seems like there is a lack in concensus on how to proceed [05 Sep 10:57] I think the paper allows us to proceed [05 Sep 10:57] opposing opinoins right now [05 Sep 10:57] Peter not BDFL anymore is a BIG step [05 Sep 10:57] Colas: yes [05 Sep 10:57] I do not thing agreeing on the paper binds us to life to it [05 Sep 10:57] MartinSeibert is reformulating what Colas wrote, basically. [05 Sep 10:57] so let's go with it [05 Sep 10:58] lets not stuck on the 10% details [05 Sep 10:58] Colas_, i don't think 1a is a 10% issue [05 Sep 10:58] it is currently not compatible with debian [05 Sep 10:58] unless these 10% are really preventing people to contribute *now* [05 Sep 10:58] ie, i will be forced to rename the twiki package [05 Sep 10:58] and remove the logo [05 Sep 10:59] just like we discussed when we re-did the logo [05 Sep 10:59] good point. but it seems this is not solvable? (TWiki.net feels the trademark issue is vital) [05 Sep 10:59] so if it is not solvable, to bad. live with it [05 Sep 10:59] if it is unsolveable [05 Sep 11:00] i may as well fork [05 Sep 11:00] rather than confusing the brand i work on :( [05 Sep 11:00] or like java, the debian package wil be just an installer pulling the distrib from twiki.org? [05 Sep 11:00] ie, it is a massive deal breaker for some of the non-trivial work i do [05 Sep 11:00] no, that was an increadibly poor 'solution' [05 Sep 11:01] well. if you are the *only* one impacted... [05 Sep 11:01] i, and all other people that want to package [05 Sep 11:01] ie, its a re-distribution restriction [05 Sep 11:01] its not inline with gpl [05 Sep 11:01] which is why debian are so strong on the point [05 Sep 11:01] it is a poor solution, but it wasnt even solved by Firefox [05 Sep 11:01] that is not considered a solution [05 Sep 11:01] --> gmc (n=gmc@chasmcity.sonologic.nl) joined the channel [05 Sep 11:01] so why could we manage to suceed where firefox failed? [05 Sep 11:01] its pretty simple tho [05 Sep 11:02] I have no intention of working on 2 brands [05 Sep 11:02] if i have to fork partially to make gpl free installers [05 Sep 11:02] then i'm being forced to fork [05 Sep 11:02] Ok, so what would you need to not fork? [05 Sep 11:02] MichaelDaum is angry, really angry, and shaking [05 Sep 11:02] for the trademark license to be debian gpl free [05 Sep 11:03] 1a [05 Sep 11:03] a part of him agrees that we should go and negociate [05 Sep 11:03] while another part says: we already went through this, we already resolved it, and here it is again. Will it ever end? [05 Sep 11:03] Sven, so you are asking something that will not happen while Twiki.net is alive? [05 Sep 11:03] no [05 Sep 11:03] can we come to a conclusion, or while we let time fly working on details, will there be still a window open for a fork [05 Sep 11:04] i think we have a moral right to use the twiki trademark for gpl based purposes [05 Sep 11:04] if they don't think so, then they are in the wrong [05 Sep 11:04] MichaelDaum stresses another point: the twiki trademark on t.n [05 Sep 11:04] I prefere to be wrong with a big community rather tha right in an ivory tower [05 Sep 11:05] i'm pretty certain that non-gpl trademark dilution will lead to fewer users [05 Sep 11:05] as there are a hell of a lot of downloads of my installers [05 Sep 11:05] several thousand a month [05 Sep 11:06] maybe 1500 ish - i should look it up again [05 Sep 11:07] Lavr, I would like to speak [05 Sep 11:07] CDot says that this paper answers the question we asked yesterday, but adds a few points he's not happy about [05 Sep 11:07] ok SvenDowideit :) [05 Sep 11:08] we need to delete the points from that paper that are not relevant to the questions asked yesterday [05 Sep 11:09] Lavr, ? [05 Sep 11:09] trying to make him hear you... [05 Sep 11:10] http://people.debian.org/~bap/dfsg-faq.html [05 Sep 11:12] --> AndreU (n=AndreU@tmo-116-2.customers.d1-online.com) joined the channel [05 Sep 11:12] --> Lynnwood (n=lynnwood@twiki/developer/lynnwood) joined the channel [05 Sep 11:12] Or we can change the name for the whole twiki.org [05 Sep 11:13] Colas_, ya [05 Sep 11:13] hmm..... changing name of twiki.org is the worse thing you guys are discussing [05 Sep 11:13] you are not *forced* Iceweasel is not a fork of firefox [05 Sep 11:14] it is much more inconvenient [05 Sep 11:14] Colas_, y, and i have no intentino of do that work [05 Sep 11:16] or it is? is a search / replace on a shar archive not sufficient? [05 Sep 11:16] --> StephaneOnE90 (n=Stephane@1.121.113.82.net.de.o2.com) joined the channel [05 Sep 11:16] --> gmc (n=gmc@freenode/sponsor/gmc) joined the channel [05 Sep 11:16] Colas_, try it [05 Sep 11:16] you'll see its a pain in the arse [05 Sep 11:16] --> gmc_ (n=gmc@chasmcity.sonologic.nl) joined the channel [05 Sep 11:17] that i am only willing to do once [05 Sep 11:17] I did this for my previous work. The open source & commercial versions of what I did had fifeferent names & features [05 Sep 11:17] not very hard [05 Sep 11:17] Mandriva does this with TrueCrypt (which is renamed RealCrypt), btw [05 Sep 11:17] Colas_, try it on twiki - we did recently [05 Sep 11:17] But it always delays releases considerably. [05 Sep 11:17] its no fun, and not going to happen for _free_ [05 Sep 11:18] This is something I would put volunteer work gladly [05 Sep 11:18] --- short break --- [05 Sep 11:18] if it means we can reach ana greement now [05 Sep 11:18] what, rather than to do something productive? [05 Sep 11:18] it IS productive [05 Sep 11:18] 15mins [05 Sep 11:18] i want to work on a true oss project [05 Sep 11:18] if it advance the situation [05 Sep 11:18] not on a some times, sort of one [05 Sep 11:18] ie, it will not. [05 Sep 11:20] end of break at what time? 14h00 ? [05 Sep 11:21] no, end of break in about 10-15mins [05 Sep 11:21] I was attracted by TWiki becuase it adressed the Entreprise issues [05 Sep 11:21] If this menas not pure Debian, so be it [05 Sep 11:21] if we get pissed off in 6 months, it is still GPL so we can still fork [05 Sep 11:22] and one-shot rename [05 Sep 11:22] but I understand your position [05 Sep 11:22] (taking a break) [05 Sep 11:23] i'm pretty sure peter has never understood the point - and so i would expect they didn't think of it [05 Sep 11:23] dunno if its a difficult issue for them [05 Sep 11:25] i fear that 1c is also not debian free [05 Sep 11:25] but I'm not positive [05 Sep 11:25] as 'invarient' sections are frowned upon [05 Sep 11:26] again [05 Sep 11:26] i think the twiki community needs to engage a real gpl foundation for advice [05 Sep 11:26] FSF or SPI or similar in EU [05 Sep 11:29] *** You connected [05 Sep 11:33] http://cbeard.typepad.com/mozilla/2006/10/mozilla_tradema.html [05 Sep 11:34] http://www.linux.com/articles/57675 [05 Sep 11:34] no, it does not [05 Sep 11:37] --> AndreU_ (n=AndreU@tmo-123-1.customers.d1-online.com) joined the channel [05 Sep 11:39] --> Babar_ (n=babar@tmo-123-1.customers.d1-online.com) joined the channel [05 Sep 11:39] agreed [05 Sep 11:39] break is over. [05 Sep 11:40] because you're ugly? [05 Sep 11:40] dunno if its a difficult issue for them - Yes, could be. but trademarks are vital for companies... I suspect it will be a hard point [05 Sep 11:40] they should have thought of that before they started [05 Sep 11:40] its not _our_ fault they did not do their homework [05 Sep 11:41] Tom reaction yesterday tells us that it was the first thing they considered :-) [05 Sep 11:41] no, its not [05 Sep 11:41] --> carlo__ (n=chatzill@tmo-123-1.customers.d1-online.com) joined the channel [05 Sep 11:41] 3. compare their answers and formulate our replies [05 Sep 11:41] they did not consider it , they just assumed they could treat the community as irrelevant [05 Sep 11:41] they could treat the packagers as irrelevant [05 Sep 11:42] --> CDo1 (n=Crawford@tmo-123-1.customers.d1-online.com) joined the channel [05 Sep 11:42] its not just packagers [05 Sep 11:42] and I agree they did not envision that it could disrupt the community [05 Sep 11:42] jens proposes: don't fork, initiate project for change, set timeline, at end we either fork or go back [05 Sep 11:43] i'd like to respond please [05 Sep 11:44] I proposed: focus on the questions we asked, not on the extra furniture they added [05 Sep 11:44] sven: why not rename the project? [05 Sep 11:45] that way you avoid the TM issues [05 Sep 11:45] micha: we won't dilute the brand by forking, if you don't dilute the brand by asking for extra rights to be put into the governance [05 Sep 11:46] I agree with CDot: renaming seem not so hard [05 Sep 11:46] +1 (oh thats what he said) [05 Sep 11:47] +1 renaming would clear this nagging trademark issue [05 Sep 11:50] renaming twiki.net would clear the issue too, and would be more align to their so praised Ubuntu model they keep quoting [05 Sep 11:54] * Babar doesn't get the "debian-free". Is it free as in Debian, or debian-free as in bug-free? [05 Sep 11:55] no, free as in the requirements debian puts on things [05 Sep 11:55] to be in debian's main repository [05 Sep 11:55] ok [05 Sep 11:55] it has to do with un-encumbered logos, artwork, trademarks etc [05 Sep 11:55] its horribly subtle [05 Sep 11:56] but boils down to, anyone is allowed to do anything [05 Sep 11:56] yes, this I know. it's just that for me, debian-free is like bug-free [05 Sep 11:56] ie, receipients of the 'system' are free to fully follow the gpl [05 Sep 11:56] lol [05 Sep 11:56] debian has lots of bugs [05 Sep 11:56] tsss [05 Sep 11:56] please keep Kuert off this :) [05 Sep 11:57] hehe [05 Sep 11:57] whats or whos Kuert? [05 Sep 11:58] ah just has been answered [05 Sep 11:58] did someone mute the fone?? [05 Sep 11:58] conenction seem cut or muted [05 Sep 11:59] Lavr, CDo1 hello? [05 Sep 11:59] it's muted [05 Sep 11:59] we're working it out [05 Sep 11:59] ok, fixed [05 Sep 11:59] back [05 Sep 12:08] see you later, need to go. back in ~ 2hours (offline) [05 Sep 12:14] carlo__: shall I do it? :) [05 Sep 12:14] heyho, sorry [05 Sep 12:14] miles away [05 Sep 12:14] yes, please [05 Sep 12:14] Babar: sounds good, thanks [05 Sep 12:15] Questions regarding download links, council membership and logo questions will be resolver in negociation between an ppointed committee, representing the community and TWiki.Net/Peter Thoeny [05 Sep 12:15] btw: I'm missing the first 40 minutes from yesterday; if someone sends me his copy (email: Markus.Ueberall@gmail.com), I'll merge them before stripping the phone numbers/PINs and attaching this log to TWikiCommunitySummitBerlin2008Q3 [05 Sep 12:15] (thats what Kenneth wrote) [05 Sep 12:15] I think OliverKrueger has them [05 Sep 12:15] uebera||: first 40 of this channel? [05 Sep 12:15] yes [05 Sep 12:15] time range? when does your log start [05 Sep 12:16] I joined at 10:22 [05 Sep 12:16] bah, I don't have that. Will ask oliver. [05 Sep 12:16] carlo__: is that what CDo1 wanted? :) [05 Sep 12:17] not sure [05 Sep 12:17] I might have the logs on my home machine, which is down at the moment, so I'll check tomorrow uebera||, ok? [05 Sep 12:17] CDo1: can you confirm? Shall I copy/paste everything or only that part? [05 Sep 12:17] +please somewhere :) [05 Sep 12:17] ok [05 Sep 12:17] Babar: not for me; for uebera|| [05 Sep 12:18] CDo1: about the line above... [05 Sep 12:18] Kenneth wrote: Questions regarding download links, council membership and logo questions will be resolver in negociation between an ppointed committee, representing the community and TWiki.Net/Peter Thoeny [05 Sep 12:18] ok, I'll copy the rest... if I can see it [05 Sep 12:19] Community position on the Peter Thoeny's role <--- everything there has been accepted using the %Y% convention [05 Sep 12:21] so it has been proposed Adam will review the text, and put it in his own words, and then the community will review it again. [05 Sep 12:22] I started my log at 10:20. [05 Sep 12:22] so 2 extra minutes :) IF both of you are synchronised [05 Sep 12:22] http://pastebin.com/d6daeaafe [05 Sep 12:23] Ok, I'll copy the additional 9 lines ;) [05 Sep 12:24] * Babar is getting fed up... shouldn't we head for the cafetaria? [05 Sep 12:25] -- lunch now -- [05 Sep 12:26] k - i'll be back eventually :) [05 Sep 12:33] i think it would be worth pointing out that if the community were to decide to rename [05 Sep 12:33] then the community would have rights to the servers [05 Sep 12:33] whereas if they 'fork' they give up those rights [05 Sep 12:33] similarly [05 Sep 12:33] due to the illdefined license of the text on codev etc [05 Sep 12:33] renameing the oss project would allow us to continue using the topics unencumbered [05 Sep 12:33] whereas forking, would put that under a cloud [05 Sep 12:33] please discuss when you come back [05 Sep 12:38] another pov (yes, i'm getting thrid opinions) [05 Sep 12:38] is that having the twiki.net download that the same level as the oss one [05 Sep 12:38] would imply that [05 Sep 12:38] 1) the oss community endorses the twiki.net version, and acknowledges the sueriority of thw twiki.net version [05 Sep 12:39] (which i hope we object to) [05 Sep 12:39] 2) that the oss version is crippled [05 Sep 12:39] just in case you want more reasons why its a bad idea [05 Sep 12:57] --> AndreU (n=AndreU@tmo-123-1.customers.d1-online.com) joined the channel [05 Sep 12:59] back from lunch, for some :) [05 Sep 13:12] fast food? ;) [05 Sep 13:13] nope, Motorola cafetaria [05 Sep 13:13] really great stuff, and free as in beer [05 Sep 13:13] (but no beer :)) [05 Sep 13:14] So... why did you hurry? :) [05 Sep 13:18] *** You connected [05 Sep 13:32] hurry? I didn't :) [05 Sep 13:32] what makes you say so [05 Sep 13:35] It only took you half an hour... which is fast (well, it's the normal speed I'm used to while working as a consultant (time=money :)), but on a summit/conference I usually slow down a bit). [05 Sep 13:37] otoh, I guess the cafeteria is not as suited to discuss/barter with others as the conference room ;) [05 Sep 13:38] exactly [05 Sep 13:38] and most people wanted to go back to work and try to finally make something useful out of these 2 days [05 Sep 13:50] Hello [05 Sep 13:50] is there any dial-in number available from India? [05 Sep 14:00] SopanShewale: Lavr said it's the 'usual' numbers--according to that, it should be XXXXXXXXXXXXX [05 Sep 14:01] SopanShewale, its pretty funny atm [05 Sep 14:01] there's so much conversation that you can't hear anything [05 Sep 14:01] PIN code needed is XXXXXXX [05 Sep 14:01] atm? [05 Sep 14:02] at the moment :) [05 Sep 14:02] :) [05 Sep 14:02] still lunch break, I presume. [05 Sep 14:02] thanks Uebera [05 Sep 14:02] np [05 Sep 14:02] ok [05 Sep 14:02] i think they're just rudely ignoring us :} [05 Sep 14:02] but thtas ok, they're all ugly [05 Sep 14:02] let me dial after some time.. [05 Sep 14:03] if you have a headset, its well worth just lurking sometimes [05 Sep 14:03] but atm, no-one loud enough is near enough to the mic to be able to make out words [05 Sep 14:03] back, connecting... [05 Sep 14:05] (online) [05 Sep 14:05] hmm....looks people are cool :) [05 Sep 14:08] ok... [05 Sep 14:09] in fact, we've splitted into 3 teams to focus on different subjects, and it's true no team is close to the microphone atm [05 Sep 14:09] go on, make one of those teams move :) [05 Sep 14:09] preffereably the quietest ones [05 Sep 14:10] so there is one focused on the roadmap, one on the fundation, and one on the governance [05 Sep 14:10] cos we have all heard Kenneth etc - and would love to hear from the quiet people [05 Sep 14:10] Sven - just curious - you in Berlin? [05 Sep 14:10] i wish [05 Sep 14:10] which one shall I (OlivierRaginel/Babar atm) ask? [05 Sep 14:10] i'm in sydney [05 Sep 14:10] dunno - i'm thinking of leting you guys go [05 Sep 14:10] wow - that's interesting - so much dedication :) [05 Sep 14:10] but perhaps we could make a better decision if we know an adgenda [05 Sep 14:11] SopanShewale, its pretty simple for me - iv'e been workong in twiki for almost 10 years [05 Sep 14:11] what twiki.net have done is a pretty big deal for me [05 Sep 14:11] Personaly - hat's off to you :) [05 Sep 14:12] or (you silly bugger) :} [05 Sep 14:12] hmmm.... [05 Sep 14:12] oh, seems it's >5am west coast, so Peter or Will might want to join in [05 Sep 14:12] aha, ok, i'll stick around then [05 Sep 14:13] OliverKrueger, thanks :) [05 Sep 14:13] at least that's what they said in the mail... [05 Sep 14:13] yup [05 Sep 14:13] i'm poor at TZs [05 Sep 14:13] * OliverKrueger has a worldmap TZ on his phone [05 Sep 14:13] which says it's 22:13 atm in Sydney, correct? [05 Sep 14:14] yup [05 Sep 14:14] so 5:13 in SF [05 Sep 14:14] still earily [05 Sep 14:14] true :) [05 Sep 14:14] just to show who's typing [05 Sep 14:14] you impersonator :) [05 Sep 14:14] been using Oliver's laptop to check my train schedule [05 Sep 14:14] giggle [05 Sep 14:14] yep, that's me :) [05 Sep 14:14] for a fast getaway [05 Sep 14:20] ok, I've informed people about the 5am "deadline", and we should soon move on, normally [05 Sep 14:21] Ah, Peter joined #twiki, #twiki_release; does he know about #twiki-summit? [05 Sep 14:23] not sure, feel free to let him know :) [05 Sep 14:25] done. :) [05 Sep 14:25] saw that, thanks :) [05 Sep 14:25] forgot to mention gmc/Koen arrived in Berlin half an hour ago [05 Sep 14:25] ooo, sweet [05 Sep 14:25] say hi from me :) [05 Sep 14:26] tis fun having an earpiece on a wireless fone just listening in on mute [05 Sep 14:26] you may say hi on the phoneline, that will wake people up :) [05 Sep 14:26] hehehe [05 Sep 14:26] done :) [05 Sep 14:29] --> peterthoeny (n=PeterTho@twiki/founder/peterthoeny) joined the channel [05 Sep 14:29] hi all [05 Sep 14:29] hi Peter [05 Sep 14:29] hi babar, what is your real name? [05 Sep 14:29] --> SopanShewale_ (n=chatzill@59.90.32.1) joined the channel [05 Sep 14:30] hi peter [05 Sep 14:30] hi colas [05 Sep 14:30] let me dial in [05 Sep 14:30] Oliver is back at his computer now. [05 Sep 14:30] Olivier was using it in the meantime. [05 Sep 14:30] peterthoeny: do you have the numbers? [05 Sep 14:31] hi oliver [05 Sep 14:31] yes [05 Sep 14:31] k [05 Sep 14:31] Good Morning Peter [05 Sep 14:32] --> AndreU (n=AndreU@tmo-127-1.customers.d1-online.com) joined the channel [05 Sep 14:36] --> Babar (n=babar@tmo-127-1.customers.d1-online.com) joined the channel [05 Sep 14:37] who is speaking? [05 Sep 14:37] MartinSeibert [05 Sep 14:41] I think 5 is slightly too small [05 Sep 14:41] not sure you're aware of what Martin is speaking about, but he's following: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/TWikiGovernanceStructure [05 Sep 14:41] 7 is still effective small group but can better tolerate a couple of absences which we should expect due to geographic distribution [05 Sep 14:43] They do not necessarily need face-to-face. I think. [05 Sep 14:43] --> CDot (n=Crawford@tmo-127-1.customers.d1-online.com) joined the channel [05 Sep 14:43] ArthurClements is speaking [05 Sep 14:43] -t [05 Sep 14:46] Lynnwood: are you connected to the phone conference? [05 Sep 14:46] yes [05 Sep 14:46] ok [05 Sep 14:47] 16:15? what is timezone? [05 Sep 14:47] 4pm, so it's in 1h10min [05 Sep 14:47] 8:45 am here [05 Sep 14:49] MichaelDaum speaks [05 Sep 14:55] --> carlo__ (n=chatzill@tmo-127-1.customers.d1-online.com) joined the channel [05 Sep 15:04] michael is speaking? [05 Sep 15:04] martin [05 Sep 15:08] --> Lavr (n=81bc4581@cpe.atm2-0-103309.0x3ef3d076.albnxx13.customer.tele.dk) joined the channel [05 Sep 15:10] this chan is on a beamer again [05 Sep 15:13] * The community recognizes Peter Thoeny as project founder, representing TWiki. [05 Sep 15:13] * Peter Thoeny is considered the Chief Evangelist. [05 Sep 15:13] * Peter Thoeny will not have veto right [05 Sep 15:13] * Peter Thoeny will not have the right to overthrow community decisions [05 Sep 15:14] --> EugenMayer (n=EugenMay@tmo-127-1.customers.d1-online.com) joined the channel [05 Sep 15:14] Hello. [05 Sep 15:15] "We expect leadership by example. In Ubuntu, leadership is not an award, right, or title" [05 Sep 15:15] http://www.ubuntu.com/community/leadership-conduct [05 Sep 15:15] Well said peterthoeny. [05 Sep 15:18] peter asks: * Peter Thoeny has a permanent seat in (name of council) [05 Sep 15:18] --> MartinSeibert (n=martinse@tmo-127-1.customers.d1-online.com) joined the channel [05 Sep 15:25] Thanks for being so open Peter! [05 Sep 15:25] * Colas_ claps :-) [05 Sep 15:25] Thanks! [05 Sep 15:25] * Lynnwood claps loudly :-) [05 Sep 15:27] Thanks Peter. [05 Sep 15:28] ok, have to make clear that the conclusion was that the permanent seat goes to a community vote, and peter will also stand for the interim council [05 Sep 15:28] so Carlo is presenting the TWiki Roadmap: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/ExtendedTWikiRoadMap?cover=print [05 Sep 15:28] I find a very important, that we find a way to proceed together with everybody doing what his talents are. [05 Sep 15:28] Carlo points out that a vision is important for usability. [05 Sep 15:28] It's in TWikiRoadMap. [05 Sep 15:30] I would say that it is important that, for instance, Carlo can impose his vision on usability without being a lead developer [05 Sep 15:31] * Babar wants to point out Carlo already exposed part of his vision during his demo session yesterday, which hopefully he'll make some screenshots [05 Sep 15:31] A same individual cannot have all the visions in all the domains [05 Sep 15:33] Colas: absolutely right [05 Sep 15:34] if you use htpasswd for such a large set of users [05 Sep 15:34] Performance is also key issue for internet sites [05 Sep 15:34] you are doing it wrong [05 Sep 15:34] we all know that you're not supposed to do that [05 Sep 15:34] where one can not know where usage might spike or grow rapidly [05 Sep 15:35] ideally it should go into database or ldap [05 Sep 15:35] i already wrote that code [05 Sep 15:35] its in plugins [05 Sep 15:35] http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Plugins/HTTPDUserAdminContrib [05 Sep 15:36] Big Enterprises may be using Single - Sign kind of thing [05 Sep 15:37] and those usermappers are also mostly written [05 Sep 15:37] Big Comp like Yahoo [05 Sep 15:37] we've been successfully makig that happen for _years_ [05 Sep 15:37] Big companies can pay for performance enhancement features [05 Sep 15:37] hell, i wrote the openid one for sun [05 Sep 15:37] I'm delighted to see the Import/Export points in the roadmap [05 Sep 15:38] mod_auth clearly states that greater scalability can be achieved by using mod_auth_dbm anyway. So using mod_auth is wrong even only from the Apache side. [05 Sep 15:38] Babar, exactly [05 Sep 15:38] its the hobby size solution [05 Sep 15:38] what was just said? [05 Sep 15:39] * Babar thinks people just pointed out that the roadmap was a result of a brain-storming session, and thus the page should be not considered final (iiuc) [05 Sep 15:40] and that the point here was to expose the main points that were drawn into light and should mostly be addressed [05 Sep 15:41] yes....roadmap should be evolving technology - can not be fixed [05 Sep 15:41] yes....roadmap should be evolving with technology - can not be fixed [05 Sep 15:45] Michael and Adam pointed out we are already forming an association, and anyone who doesn't want that needs to speak up NOW [05 Sep 15:45] SopanShewale_: after some type you have to freeze it for a goal, e.g. 5.0 to focus. Because ppl like to add features, ppl dont like to implement them to the _end_ [05 Sep 15:46] The current roadmap is a brainstorming btw, so just a first-layout [05 Sep 15:46] moving on with election for interim governance board [05 Sep 15:46] need nominations please [05 Sep 15:46] ok [05 Sep 15:46] please change your nick if you want to vote anonymously >:-) [05 Sep 15:47] that's secure :) [05 Sep 15:49] i would like to nominate "Peter Thoeny" [05 Sep 15:49] will nominates Peter [05 Sep 15:49] who is nominated? [05 Sep 15:50] and who is not? [05 Sep 15:50] I would nominate Crawford Currie [05 Sep 15:50] Nominated right now : Peter, Crawford, Adam, Kenneth, Micheal Daum, Andre [05 Sep 15:50] yes, i'm here [05 Sep 15:50] Sven, you got nominated [05 Sep 15:50] Nominated right now : Peter, Crawford, Adam, Kenneth, Micheal Daum, Andre, Sven Dowideit, Lynwood [05 Sep 15:51] Adam, Lynnwood, Kenneth, Crawford, Peter, Michael, Andre, Martin, SvenDowideit [05 Sep 15:51] yeah i missed marting, sorry [05 Sep 15:51] adam, lynnwood, kennethg, crawford, peter, michael, andre, martin, sven d [05 Sep 15:51] people just say something against when you not wanted to get voted [05 Sep 15:51] i answer... ok [05 Sep 15:51] adam syas yes [05 Sep 15:51] yes [05 Sep 15:51] kenneth yes [05 Sep 15:51] Kenneth : yes [05 Sep 15:51] peter yes [05 Sep 15:51] Crawford: yes [05 Sep 15:51] micha yes [05 Sep 15:51] i answer... ok [05 Sep 15:52] Adam: OK, Lynnwood: OK, Kenneth: OK, Crawford: OK, Peter: OK, Michael: OK, Andre: OK, Martin: OK, SvenDowideit: OK [05 Sep 15:52] everybody with a yes [05 Sep 15:52] who do i bribe? [05 Sep 15:52] me me me me me [05 Sep 15:52] Colas Nahaboo [05 Sep 15:52] SvenDowideit: me! [05 Sep 15:52] i'm on the phone [05 Sep 15:52] yes [05 Sep 15:52] I am here on irc [05 Sep 15:52] youshould voice up pno the phone guys [05 Sep 15:52] state your name on the phone [05 Sep 15:52] i am on mute [05 Sep 15:52] I was also on phone [05 Sep 15:52] i am also but will take off mute [05 Sep 15:53] Question: How let poeple vote, which are not lcoal but on IRC and phone? [05 Sep 15:53] sven hit #6 [05 Sep 15:53] i am not nuted :) [05 Sep 15:53] i am now muted :) [05 Sep 15:53] the leader has kicked your arse [05 Sep 15:53] don play arround sven, damit! [05 Sep 15:53] :) [05 Sep 15:53] oh sorry [05 Sep 15:53] i'm trying to record and it works better if i'm on mute [05 Sep 15:53] best if we record votes on irc [05 Sep 15:54] i concur [05 Sep 15:54] please use irc and open a channel #WikiName [05 Sep 15:54] no, change of plan [05 Sep 15:54] lol [05 Sep 15:54] use email, send to Jens Hansen [05 Sep 15:54] mmm [05 Sep 15:55] why not private msg (query) with Jens? [05 Sep 15:55] whats so special about jens? [05 Sep 15:55] Ok, you guys "remote" will vote due votre, 5 votes for each person [05 Sep 15:55] he's "appointed" to collect votes [05 Sep 15:55] name the 5 people you think will make up the best interim council [05 Sep 15:55] where? [05 Sep 15:55] due "email" [05 Sep 15:55] from the candidate list [05 Sep 15:56] what email? [05 Sep 15:56] Candidate list again: Adam: OK, Lynnwood: OK, Kenneth: OK, Crawford: OK, Peter: OK, Michael: OK, Andre: OK, Martin: OK, SvenDowideit: OK [05 Sep 15:56] change of plan (again) [05 Sep 15:56] vee 'ave no email address [05 Sep 15:56] use irc, open a channel #WikiName [05 Sep 15:56] Jens will connect and collect your voite [05 Sep 15:56] as in join #WikiName ? [05 Sep 15:56] I am there now [05 Sep 15:56] no one else is [05 Sep 15:56] :} [05 Sep 15:56] as in join #LynnwoodBrown? [05 Sep 15:56] hehe [05 Sep 15:56] yeah [05 Sep 15:57] Sven is out! [05 Sep 15:57] um [05 Sep 15:57] this is not working [05 Sep 15:57] what names [05 Sep 15:57] those above [05 Sep 15:57] or full names [05 Sep 15:57] You twiki WikiName [05 Sep 15:57] then friggen list them [05 Sep 15:57] oh, mine [05 Sep 15:57] you guys are a mess [05 Sep 15:57] agreed [05 Sep 15:57] wait [05 Sep 15:58] "confusions". Wait one second [05 Sep 15:58] ok, i've got #LynnwoodBrown up [05 Sep 15:58] email twiki-dev [05 Sep 15:58] sopan.shewale@gmail.com [05 Sep 15:58] ok where do we email to? [05 Sep 15:58] he's typing it right now [05 Sep 15:58] nope [05 Sep 15:58] (with 2 fingers) [05 Sep 15:58] jens-hansen@gmx.de [05 Sep 15:58] not sopans email! [05 Sep 15:58] so each and everyone of you should send 5 people to jens-hansen@gmx.de [05 Sep 15:59] from this list: [05 Sep 15:59] Candidate list again: Adam: OK, Lynnwood: OK, Kenneth: OK, Crawford: OK, Peter: OK, Michael: OK, Andre: OK, Martin: OK, SvenDowideit: OK [05 Sep 15:59] Vote your mails to: jens-hansen@gmx.de ( every voters has to vote on _exactly_ 5 ) [05 Sep 15:59] ********** VOTE 5 NAMES TO: jens-hansen@gmx.de ************* [05 Sep 16:00] is anyone familiar with this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Condorcet_method [05 Sep 16:00] too late now.. [05 Sep 16:01] please vote now. [05 Sep 16:01] gmc never use lessons from others when you can fuck up just like everyone else [05 Sep 16:02] Please state after voting if you are on the phone. [05 Sep 16:02] Every voter just write a message he vote, so we can wait for the emails to arrive and be sure we get them! [05 Sep 16:02] voted [05 Sep 16:02] i have voted [05 Sep 16:02] voted [05 Sep 16:02] i have voted [05 Sep 16:02] I have voted [05 Sep 16:03] Vote through mail: Colas, Sven, uberall, Lynwood, Peter, Sophan [05 Sep 16:03] (away from phone for 1mn, work interrupt) [05 Sep 16:03] Will also said he has voted [05 Sep 16:03] Sopan :) (no "h") [05 Sep 16:03] voted [05 Sep 16:03] i voted [05 Sep 16:04] Voted through mail: Colas, Sven, uberall, Lynwood, Peter, Sopan, Babar [05 Sep 16:04] (back to phone) [05 Sep 16:04] EugenMayer: I'm in front of you... [05 Sep 16:05] Who the heck are you! [05 Sep 16:05] hehe... fight Babar/EugenMayer.. we can see remotely [05 Sep 16:05] i took him down. [05 Sep 16:05] Babar: http://timesonline.typepad.com/dons_life/images/2007/07/15/babar.jpg :) [05 Sep 16:06] :) [05 Sep 16:06] gmx did you voted? [05 Sep 16:06] gmc [05 Sep 16:07] i voted yes [05 Sep 16:07] ok now recognised [05 Sep 16:07] gmc seats right to me [05 Sep 16:07] EugenMayer: you wish. [05 Sep 16:07] you guys are still fighting? who is babar? [05 Sep 16:08] * Babar is Babar [05 Sep 16:08] oh sorry :) [05 Sep 16:08] :D [05 Sep 16:08] * Babar is OlivierRaginel [05 Sep 16:08] Its Olivier ( how do i spell that) [05 Sep 16:08] but he is french [05 Sep 16:08] i have bear power [05 Sep 16:08] thank you [05 Sep 16:08] no chance [05 Sep 16:08] the only power you have is beer :) [05 Sep 16:08] someone needs to get on the table and ddance [05 Sep 16:08] you guys are boring [05 Sep 16:08] and we need photos [05 Sep 16:09] :) [05 Sep 16:09] Photos has been done a lot [05 Sep 16:09] EugenMayer: do the bear dance, NOW! :) [05 Sep 16:09] # [05 Sep 16:09] have [05 Sep 16:09] Votes are closed and counted [05 Sep 16:10] Not counted yet. :-) [05 Sep 16:10] Voted through mail: Colas, Sven, uberall, Lynwood, Peter, Sopan [05 Sep 16:10] Will [05 Sep 16:10] Voted through mail: Colas, Sven, uberall, Lynwood, Peter, Sopan, Will [05 Sep 16:11] How many seating in the room? [05 Sep 16:11] anybody feels missing? [05 Sep 16:11] Anybody online not in that list? [05 Sep 16:11] 17 in my count [05 Sep 16:11] plus 7 online [05 Sep 16:11] yeah, but you counted in german [05 Sep 16:12] so that can't count :) [05 Sep 16:12] ok.. gr8 [05 Sep 16:12] genau [05 Sep 16:12] 1 did not vote [05 Sep 16:12] 2 did not vote [05 Sep 16:12] (because the count the votes out) [05 Sep 16:12] *they [05 Sep 16:13] 16 in the room [05 Sep 16:13] -2 = 14 [05 Sep 16:13] 21 voters [05 Sep 16:14] Sven: no sleep to you today? [05 Sep 16:14] mmm, midnight [05 Sep 16:14] yeah, i figure they'll get tossed out in about an hour [05 Sep 16:15] and then i'll sleep all weekend :) [05 Sep 16:15] so, um [05 Sep 16:15] good idea [05 Sep 16:15] whats happening now? [05 Sep 16:15] so you are already in weekend in a few mins [05 Sep 16:15] yup [05 Sep 16:16] shame my clients just woke up [05 Sep 16:16] :) thats good thing for you [05 Sep 16:16] yup [05 Sep 16:16] Jens is counting the votes [05 Sep 16:16] and re-counting [05 Sep 16:16] and OliverKrueger is helping him out [05 Sep 16:16] 12, 34, 23, 12, hut [05 Sep 16:16] they have to wait till you wake-up [05 Sep 16:16] remember: they're counting in German :) [05 Sep 16:16] mostly ye, we play pingpong [05 Sep 16:16] oh :/ [05 Sep 16:16] german counting [05 Sep 16:17] i know that [05 Sep 16:17] peterthoeny: can i delete your old proposal and add a note with "topic moved" to the current proposal? [05 Sep 16:17] delete -> delete the content [05 Sep 16:17] which topic? [05 Sep 16:17] We might get confuse people because there are several proposals floating arround which are not upto date [05 Sep 16:17] one second [05 Sep 16:18] * SvenDowideit wonders if the beers have been opened [05 Sep 16:18] http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/TWikiGovernance [05 Sep 16:18] to early for me. i'll raise a cup of jo [05 Sep 16:19] SvenDowideit: Not yet, by iwas thinking of it [05 Sep 16:19] but I was... [05 Sep 16:19] grin [05 Sep 16:19] peterthoeny: its not only about yours ( http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/TWikiGovernance ) i will track down the web to find others and leave notes [05 Sep 16:20] let me rename that topic and recreate an empty placeholder [05 Sep 16:20] For me, i would even clear the topics out of one reasons. Stop fighting. [05 Sep 16:20] peterthoeny: jap, keep a note maybe, in the upper [05 Sep 16:20] yep [05 Sep 16:20] why rename? [05 Sep 16:20] Are they still counting? [05 Sep 16:20] better to use the rev history [05 Sep 16:20] still counting [05 Sep 16:20] and counting [05 Sep 16:21] actually carlo, what does the __ mean? [05 Sep 16:21] counting, and playing with the automatic curtains [05 Sep 16:21] means that carlo and carlo_ are already taken? [05 Sep 16:21] Is that kind of hidden assosiation with Sven? [05 Sep 16:21] FBI or CIA? [05 Sep 16:21] * carlo__ is considering to question the way the counted to votes [05 Sep 16:21] they [05 Sep 16:22] they should start all over again [05 Sep 16:22] they're re-counting [05 Sep 16:22] they way of counting was not properly discussed before ;-) [05 Sep 16:22] counted twice, and not the same figures, so... [05 Sep 16:22] yep, 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 [05 Sep 16:22] nothing like setting up a too complex vote [05 Sep 16:22] Babars votes were devide by 3 because of attacking germans. [05 Sep 16:22] It can't be that hard to count 21x5 votes for 7(?) candidates? [05 Sep 16:22] oups, forgot 0 [05 Sep 16:23] haha [05 Sep 16:23] uebera||: so would you think. Next time, I propose we don't choose some Germans to do the counting [05 Sep 16:23] agreed [05 Sep 16:23] next time, hold the vote in sydney [05 Sep 16:24] bio-break - brb [05 Sep 16:24] and i can get my neighbour to do the count [05 Sep 16:24] You mean there are non-germans that can count, too? :p [05 Sep 16:24] sad news - i'm german [05 Sep 16:24] No. [05 Sep 16:24] uebera||: my computer can :) [05 Sep 16:24] Only German guys counting. [05 Sep 16:24] Oliver and Jens. [05 Sep 16:24] uebera||: no but it would be faster ( because its not counted ) [05 Sep 16:24] you can count on 'em [05 Sep 16:24] Arthur is preparing for a presentation. [05 Sep 16:25] give me warning when he's about to announce results so i can turn recording back on. [05 Sep 16:25] Carlo shall be in the Task team for the roadmap [05 Sep 16:25] you may go for a cuppa Lynnwood :) [05 Sep 16:25] Crawford should lead it. [05 Sep 16:26] Crawoard should leading the task force [05 Sep 16:26] anybody against that [05 Sep 16:26] as an alternative, the candidates could have played russian roulette with two bullets :) -- instant outcome. [05 Sep 16:26] is that a mix of Crawford and coward? [05 Sep 16:26] 5 votes, so 5 bullets [05 Sep 16:27] back [05 Sep 16:27] so ArthurClemens is presenting a demo of some integration of flash with TWiki CMS [05 Sep 16:27] or the other way around [05 Sep 16:27] TWiki is used as a CMS, and flash is used to display the content [05 Sep 16:27] wish i could see it! [05 Sep 16:28] http://inn-site.com [05 Sep 16:28] ok, RESULTS [05 Sep 16:28] see http://inn-site.com [05 Sep 16:28] we'll do that after Arthur is done [05 Sep 16:28] in a couple of minutes approx. [05 Sep 16:28] flash front end, twiki back end [05 Sep 16:30] (backware is login only) [05 Sep 16:31] the breadcrumbs are a nice touch [05 Sep 16:31] still loading... [05 Sep 16:31] shame about the lack of url structure and accessibility [05 Sep 16:31] well, its flash... [05 Sep 16:32] thats not a reason [05 Sep 16:32] rewriting can be done with flash also :) [05 Sep 16:32] are we going to do more demo's? imighte something nice perhaps [05 Sep 16:32] BLAMING :) [05 Sep 16:32] gmc: there have been 7 yesterday [05 Sep 16:32] You missed the demos yesterday. [05 Sep 16:33] i know.. well, have a look at www.biografievanamsterdam.nl if you have some spare time sometiem :) [05 Sep 16:33] are you using SOAP/REST to use twiki as backend? [05 Sep 16:34] gmc: that's in Dutch! [05 Sep 16:34] it is, but it's nice anyway :) [05 Sep 16:35] has a reasonable user-friendly interface for entering geographical data.. make links between subjects in the system.. etc.. [05 Sep 16:35] and is in twiki? [05 Sep 16:35] is this a new presentation now? [05 Sep 16:35] gmc, nice pleasant look [05 Sep 16:35] is there a url where we can see it? [05 Sep 16:35] lynnwood: no ignore me :) [05 Sep 16:35] Lynnwood: no [05 Sep 16:36] no, it's still Arthur finishing his presentation [05 Sep 16:36] oh well [05 Sep 16:36] we'll switch to the results afterwards [05 Sep 16:36] hopefully in a couple of minutes [05 Sep 16:36] SopanShewale_: its somehow publish by converting the TML content to XML [05 Sep 16:36] SopanShewale_: more details, only the table ( form ) is converted and published to flash ) [05 Sep 16:36] cool [05 Sep 16:38] gmc: imagine with the Condorcet method... with normal counting, it took them half an hour already :) [05 Sep 16:38] ok [05 Sep 16:38] ok results of the votes now [05 Sep 16:38] Arthur is finished [05 Sep 16:39] Thanks Arthur [05 Sep 16:39] yay [05 Sep 16:39] Adam, Kenneth, Lynwood, Crawford, Michael [05 Sep 16:39] ?? [05 Sep 16:39] not me :) [05 Sep 16:39] still counting [05 Sep 16:39] hehe [05 Sep 16:39] Adam 17 [05 Sep 16:40] Adam 17, Lynnwood 11, Kenneth 18, Crawford 16, Peter 9, Michaal 15, Andre 8, Martin 8, SvenDowideit 3 [05 Sep 16:40] Lynnwood 11 [05 Sep 16:40] Kenneth 18 [05 Sep 16:40] Lynwood do you accept the nominated and vote [05 Sep 16:40] yes [05 Sep 16:40] all 5 have accepted [05 Sep 16:40] Babar, its invalid [05 Sep 16:40] congratulations! [05 Sep 16:40] Michaal 15 [05 Sep 16:40] Congratulations [05 Sep 16:40] :} [05 Sep 16:40] sorry :) [05 Sep 16:40] Michał [05 Sep 16:40] we have to vote again [05 Sep 16:41] and re-count!!! [05 Sep 16:41] congratulations all! [05 Sep 16:41] congratulations guys - including sven :) [05 Sep 16:41] yep. congrats [05 Sep 16:41] It was decided to destroy the voting material. [05 Sep 16:41] Which is done at the moment. [05 Sep 16:41] no. recount [05 Sep 16:41] thankyou, i accept my nomination as least favourite :) [05 Sep 16:41] who has a lighter? :) [05 Sep 16:41] by 100% [05 Sep 16:42] So do I. [05 Sep 16:42] we all love you really! [05 Sep 16:42] SvenDowideit__: your voted by all [05 Sep 16:42] you're welcome [05 Sep 16:42] So do I. [05 Sep 16:42] least favourite for life? bleeding marvelous! [05 Sep 16:42] :-) [05 Sep 16:42] is anybody on the phone? [05 Sep 16:42] is there anybody out there? [05 Sep 16:42] yes, [05 Sep 16:42] we're still here [05 Sep 16:42] No that easy to achieve, actually [05 Sep 16:42] yes [05 Sep 16:42] yes, i am [05 Sep 16:42] mutered [05 Sep 16:43] muted here also [05 Sep 16:43] but you guys are not that clear [05 Sep 16:43] me too - mute [05 Sep 16:43] dnacing fairies? [05 Sep 16:43] no, pink fairies dancing :) [05 Sep 16:43] mmm, kill? and then revote and recount? [05 Sep 16:44] we have voted to kill the guys counted the votes and destroy the computers have been used to count [05 Sep 16:45] Ok guys, iam leaving back home, see you later [05 Sep 16:45] later EugenMayer :) [05 Sep 16:45] --- SvenDowideit (n=SvenDowi@twiki/developer/SvenDowideit) changed topic: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/TWikiCommunitySummitBerlin2008Q3 - result: Adam, Kenneth, Lynwood, Crawford, Michael [05 Sep 16:45] Lynnwood: can you send us a link to a picture so we can put you on the beamer behind the 4 other guys? [05 Sep 16:45] include a computer showing irc chat screen to include us? [05 Sep 16:45] let's see... [05 Sep 16:45] --- SvenDowideit (n=SvenDowi@twiki/developer/SvenDowideit) changed topic: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/TWikiCommunitySummitBerlin2008Q3 - result: Adam, Kenneth, Lynnwood, Crawford, Michael [05 Sep 16:45] No [05 Sep 16:45] i voted on not do that [05 Sep 16:46] <-- EugenMayer (n=EugenMay@tmo-127-1.customers.d1-online.com) left the channel [05 Sep 16:46] maybe i can find picture... [05 Sep 16:47] we need a url lynnwood [05 Sep 16:47] trying to find one. [05 Sep 16:47] you will be on the beamer [05 Sep 16:47] be fast [05 Sep 16:47] does this work? [05 Sep 16:47] http://www.skyloom.com/gallery/2007Q4/PA310827 [05 Sep 16:48] ok, have to head home to... cya guys [05 Sep 16:48] or next one. click left arrow [05 Sep 16:49] sorry right arrow [05 Sep 16:49] this one is perfect :) [05 Sep 16:50] thanks guys -have a gr8 time/weekend [05 Sep 16:50] bye [05 Sep 16:51] ok, time to go, see you next time [05 Sep 16:51] bye [05 Sep 16:51] I'll attach the log tonight. [05 Sep 16:51] see you peter [05 Sep 16:51] cu [05 Sep 16:51] so the interim council should schedule time to talk [05 Sep 16:51] set our agenda [05 Sep 16:52] i guess the conference call is over. [05 Sep 16:52] seems that way [05 Sep 16:52] thanks for all the fish guys :) [05 Sep 16:52] quote from Hitchhiker's guide? [05 Sep 16:53] y :/ [05 Sep 16:53] but don't panic [05 Sep 16:53] its not as bad as.... [05 Sep 16:53] :-) [05 Sep 16:53] bye all [05 Sep 16:53] Bye, Colas_ [05 Sep 16:53] laters :) [05 Sep 16:54] Quite happy to see things move in (relatively) smooth way [05 Sep 16:54] y [05 Sep 16:54] (offline) [05 Sep 16:56] counting, counting, counting [05 Sep 16:56] roling, rolling, rolling [05 Sep 17:02] --> PeterThoeny_ (n=PeterTho@dsl092-019-099.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) joined the channel [05 Sep 17:05] <-- CDot (n=Crawford@tmo-127-1.customers.d1-online.com) left the channel