Subject: KampalaMeetingLog2016x10x20.txt
Date: October 20, 2016 at 4:12:58 PM PDT

[3:02pm] PeterThoeny: hi HideyoImazu-san
[3:02pm] PeterThoeny: what's new in tokyo?
[3:03pm] HideyoImazu: Hi Peter
[3:03pm] HideyoImazu: It's autumn
[3:03pm] HideyoImazu: best time of the year
[3:04pm] PeterThoeny: i like all the colors
[3:04pm] PeterThoeny: gifu-ken is nice in fall
[3:04pm] HideyoImazu: sure
[3:05pm] PeterThoeny: not much news on my side
[3:05pm] HideyoImazu: I haven't done a lot of sightseeing in GIfu though
[3:05pm] PeterThoeny: one place i definitely would like to see again is shirakawago
[3:05pm] HideyoImazu: Two cities in Gifu are hot now
[3:06pm] HideyoImazu: There are two animation movies featuring two cities in Gifu
[3:06pm] PeterThoeny: ah
[3:06pm] HideyoImazu: not quite featuring
[3:06pm] PeterThoeny: what cities?
[3:06pm] HideyoImazu: Hida-shi and Ogaki-shi
[3:07pm] HideyoImazu: top box sale of this year movie "Your Name" has many scenes in Hida-shi
[3:07pm] PeterThoeny: your hometown!
[3:07pm] HideyoImazu: that's righ
[3:07pm] HideyoImazu: right
[3:08pm] PeterThoeny: my daugther wll be in japan for 2 weeks in dec
[3:08pm] HideyoImazu: where in Japan?
[3:08pm] PeterThoeny: visiting fiends in tokyo, osaka, and possibly nagoya
[3:08pm] PeterThoeny: my r key does not cooperate
[3:08pm] PeterThoeny: "friends"
[3:09pm] HideyoImazu: please tell her to text me or call me when she's stuck
[3:09pm] PeterThoeny: ok, thank you!
[3:10pm] PeterThoeny: time check: +10 min
[3:10pm] PeterThoeny: looks like just two of us
[3:10pm] PeterThoeny: let's start
[3:10pm] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/KampalaReleaseMeeting2016x10x20
[3:11pm] PeterThoeny: 1. Feature Requests for Kampala Release
[3:11pm] PeterThoeny: 2. Extensions
[3:11pm] PeterThoeny: 3. Review Urgent and Not So Urgent Bugs
[3:11pm] PeterThoeny: 4. Miscellaneous
[3:11pm] PeterThoeny: usual agenda
[3:11pm] PeterThoeny: ---++ 1. Feature Requests for Kampala Release
[3:11pm] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/WebChanges
[3:11pm] PeterThoeny: no changes since last time
[3:11pm] PeterThoeny: any feature you'd like to discuss?
[3:11pm] HideyoImazu: no
[3:12pm] PeterThoeny: not at a feature proposal stage, but i had an intersting discussion with a friend the other day
[3:13pm] PeterThoeny: what if more of the processing is done on the browser instead of the server
[3:13pm] HideyoImazu: ah
[3:13pm] PeterThoeny: all rendering could be done in the browser using js
[3:13pm] HideyoImazu: i thought about that
[3:14pm] PeterThoeny: with a proptocol to send raw data back and forth
[3:14pm] HideyoImazu: given maturity of js libraries and js runtime on browsers
[3:14pm] PeterThoeny: so, for viewing, raw tml would be sent to bowser, and js does the heavy lifting
[3:14pm] HideyoImazu: Gmail and other Google apps are running in that way to a large extent
[3:15pm] PeterThoeny: on change, just snippets could be sent to server, for incrememtal & real time update of content
[3:15pm] PeterThoeny: e.g. simultaneous editing of docs
[3:15pm] PeterThoeny: yup
[3:16pm] PeterThoeny: lots of details need to be worked out
[3:16pm] PeterThoeny: for example, a %SERCH{}%, does this initiate an ajax call just for the search?
[3:17pm] PeterThoeny: i meant %SEARCH{}%
[3:17pm] PeterThoeny: the api could be defined fo various apps, twiki just one of them
[3:18pm] PeterThoeny: others could chat apps etc
[3:18pm] PeterThoeny: anyway, just wanted to plant the seed 
[3:18pm] HideyoImazu: probably we need to rethink totally how a wiki implemented that way should be
[3:18pm] PeterThoeny: yes
[3:19pm] PeterThoeny: move to next topic?
[3:19pm] PeterThoeny: ---++ 2. Extensions
[3:19pm] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Plugins/WebChanges
[3:20pm] PeterThoeny: no updates since last time
[3:20pm] PeterThoeny: ---++ 3. Review Urgent and Not So Urgent Bugs
[3:20pm] PeterThoeny: http://develop.twiki.org/~twiki/cgi-bin/view/Bugs/WebChanges
[3:21pm] PeterThoeny: http://develop.twiki.org/~twiki/cgi-bin/view/Bugs/Item7755 -  Item7755: During edit mono/proportional 
font preference fails
[3:21pm] PeterThoeny: looks like fixed, but someone posted a feedback that proportional switch does not wok
[3:22pm] PeterThoeny: i could not reproduce, once i updated twiki.org, it works as expected
[3:22pm] HideyoImazu: I will take a look
[3:23pm] PeterThoeny: i suspect an upgrade issue on his side
[3:23pm] PeterThoeny: ---++ 4. Miscellaneous
[3:23pm] PeterThoeny: anything?
[3:24pm] HideyoImazu: no
[3:26pm] HideyoImazu: ah one thing I'm thinking about
[3:26pm] PeterThoeny: there was a small thing i considered duing our discussion, slipped my mind
[3:26pm] PeterThoeny: guess not that important
[3:26pm] PeterThoeny: ok, go ahead
[3:26pm] HideyoImazu: TWiki can do a lot with %VARIABLE{...}%
[3:26pm] HideyoImazu: but it's difficult and not so pretty
[3:28pm] HideyoImazu: it might be great if TWiki has a better macro feature
[3:28pm] PeterThoeny: can you elaborate?
[3:28pm] PeterThoeny: indeed, there are so many variables, and difficult to find the ight one
[3:28pm] PeterThoeny: "right one"
[3:29pm] PeterThoeny: and then th challenge is to learn all the paameters
[3:29pm] HideyoImazu: leveraging Perl 6's syntax processing might be interesting
[3:29pm] PeterThoeny: "parameters"
[3:29pm] PeterThoeny: in twiki-6 i tried to make it easier to discover with the variable wizard
[3:29pm] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/TWiki06x00/TWikiVariables
[3:30pm] PeterThoeny: you click on a category, select a variable, then see the details
[3:30pm] PeterThoeny: i think this is a first step
[3:30pm] PeterThoeny: but eally, it should b integrated into the editor
[3:30pm] HideyoImazu: that's a good move.
[3:30pm] PeterThoeny: ideally like a code editor with auto-expand
[3:31pm] HideyoImazu: but my concern here is the very nature of variable expansion in TWiki
[3:31pm] PeterThoeny: you type %S and see all variables starting with S
[3:31pm] PeterThoeny: if you select %SEARCH you see all possible parameters with explanation
[3:31pm] PeterThoeny: like?
[3:32pm] HideyoImazu: TWiki's variable processing is macro expansion
[3:33pm] HideyoImazu: nested macro expansion is difficult to deal with when you want to change the order of expansion
[3:33pm] HideyoImazu: you need to do $dollar, $dollardollar
[3:33pm] PeterThoeny: oh yes, that is a challenge
[3:34pm] PeterThoeny: if you want inside out expansion it is obvious
[3:34pm] PeterThoeny: but delayed expansion is a challenge
[3:34pm] HideyoImazu: there are things pretty difficult to achieve
[3:34pm] PeterThoeny: any idea how to present that better?
[3:35pm] HideyoImazu: if you get %SOMETHING% from %INCLUDE{http://something}%, making sure it's displayed as %SOMETHING% is difficult.
[3:36pm] PeterThoeny: that's a different case: recursive (or not) expansion
[3:37pm] PeterThoeny: i think there is a switch in INCLUDE to prevent recusive expansion
[3:37pm] HideyoImazu: if %INCLUDE{...}% has encode="...", you can achieve displaying %SOMETHIN% as it is
[3:38pm] PeterThoeny: ah, raw="on"
[3:38pm] HideyoImazu: but what if you want to process "%SOMETHING%" on your own with %CALCULATE{...}%
[3:38pm] PeterThoeny: doc: If raw="on" is specified, that variable expansion does not happen
[3:39pm] PeterThoeny: ah, i see that's for topic include
[3:39pm] PeterThoeny: behaviour is different for url include
[3:39pm] PeterThoeny: so, yes, your case is not covered
[3:40pm] HideyoImazu: these things can happen with all variables
[3:41pm] HideyoImazu: and in ordinary programming, these don't happen.
[3:41pm] PeterThoeny: any idea how to enhance the spec to say "stop expanding" at any level?
[3:41pm] PeterThoeny: for any type of variable?
[3:42pm] HideyoImazu: not all but various variables
[3:42pm] PeterThoeny: maybe a new variable to control what's happening inside?
[3:43pm] HideyoImazu: e.g. %HEADLINE{...}%
[3:43pm] HideyoImazu: %LDAP{...}%
[3:43pm] HideyoImazu: %DATABASE{...}%
[3:44pm] PeterThoeny: such as %EXPANDVAR{ stoplevel="2" variable="%SEARCH{… format="…" }" }%
[3:44pm] HideyoImazu: any variable retrieving data from external sources or internal
[3:46pm] PeterThoeny: yes, a generic way to control expansion would be useful
[3:46pm] HideyoImazu: %EXPANDVAR{...}% or otherwise, we can control variable expansion more
[3:46pm] HideyoImazu: but that makes variable expansion even more difficult to understand
[3:47pm] PeterThoeny: or a %VARIABLECONFIG{}% you can use before a variable to change the behavious of expansion
[3:48pm] HideyoImazu: doing LDAP query in a loop is not fun in TWiki variables
[3:48pm] PeterThoeny: %VARIABLECONFIG{ expand="0" }% to turn off expansion
[3:48pm] HideyoImazu: I really like the dynamic nature of TWiki -- variable expansion.
[3:48pm] PeterThoeny: %VARIABLECONFIG{ expand="2" }% to expand up to level 2 etc
[3:49pm] HideyoImazu: but it's difficult to deal with.
[3:49pm] PeterThoeny: %VARIABLECONFIG{ expand="on" }% is the default
[3:49pm] PeterThoeny: example:
[3:49pm] PeterThoeny: %VARIABLECONFIG{ expand="2" }%
[3:49pm] PeterThoeny: %INCLUDE{...}%
[3:49pm] PeterThoeny: %VARIABLECONFIG{ expand="on" }%
[3:50pm] PeterThoeny: so you could turn off and on the expansion
[3:51pm] HideyoImazu: what if you want to process %INCLUDE{...}% result with %CALCULATE{...}%?
[3:51pm] HideyoImazu: without %SOMETHING% in %INCLUDE{...}% result expanded
[3:51pm] PeterThoeny: let me understand
[3:52pm] PeterThoeny: so, if INCLUDE returns a %SOMETHING%
[3:52pm] PeterThoeny: where is CALCULATE coming into play?
[3:53pm] HideyoImazu: let's say you want to do string manipulation with %INCLUDE{...}% result.
[3:54pm] HideyoImazu: let's say you want to get a string between two %'s
[3:55pm] PeterThoeny: ah, %CALCULATE{ …. (%INCLUDE{}%)…. }, where INCLUDE resolves, but not included text
[3:56pm] HideyoImazu: in ordinary programming, there is nothing special
[3:56pm] HideyoImazu: var1 = include(...);
[3:56pm] HideyoImazu: var2 = calculate(var1, ...);
[3:57pm] HideyoImazu: or even
[3:57pm] HideyoImazu: calculate(include(...), ...)
[3:57pm] PeterThoeny: i ee
[3:57pm] PeterThoeny: i see
[3:58pm] PeterThoeny: i think that INCLUDE does a special thing to explicitely expand the result
[3:59pm] PeterThoeny: other vars don't do that
[3:59pm] PeterThoeny: that warrants a new switch in INCLUDE to not do expand
[3:59pm] PeterThoeny: what do you think?
[4:00pm] HideyoImazu: I don't think INCLUDE is special.
[4:00pm] HideyoImazu: %%IF{"condition" then="LDAP{" else="HIDE{"}% LDAP parameters }%
[4:01pm] HideyoImazu: if variable expansion yields a variable, that variable is expanded.
[4:02pm] PeterThoeny: these are two different cases
[4:02pm] PeterThoeny: the include explicitely expends the result before returning (special to include)
[4:02pm] HideyoImazu: ah, that's right
[4:03pm] PeterThoeny: the IF resolves in the usual inside-out/right-to-left eval order
[4:03pm] PeterThoeny: "expands the result"
[4:03pm] HideyoImazu: variables in %INCLUDE{...}% result need to expanded in the context of the included topic
[4:03pm] PeterThoeny: which is the case
[4:04pm] PeterThoeny: to summarize, i think a new switch just for INCLUDE to not expand is appropriate
[4:04pm] HideyoImazu: the bottom line here is I'd like to make web app development in TWiki more fun and easy
[4:05pm] PeterThoeny: in addition, possibly a configuration to tell the render engine to stop exanding at any level, or to delay 
the expansion at any level
[4:05pm] PeterThoeny: the latter could be useful for IF then/else and SEARCH format
[4:06pm] PeterThoeny: the raw="on" switch behaves differently for topic include and url include
[4:07pm] PeterThoeny: what if we change the spec of url include to not expand variables if raw="on" ?
[4:07pm] PeterThoeny: changing spec is usually a no-no, but in this case possibly appropriate?
[4:07pm] HideyoImazu: that will help
[4:08pm] HideyoImazu: shall we wrap this up?
[4:08pm] PeterThoeny: i think it is appropriate to align the behaviour of the two types of include
[4:08pm] PeterThoeny: oh yes, :68 min
[4:08pm] PeterThoeny: +68 min
[4:08pm] PeterThoeny: i'll post the logs and minutes as usual
[4:09pm] PeterThoeny: if you want, how about adding a proposal for the raw="on" behaviour?
[4:09pm] HideyoImazu: let me think
[4:10pm] PeterThoeny: and i will think about the delay/stop expansion question
[4:10pm] PeterThoeny: ok, gotta go
[4:10pm] HideyoImazu: ttyl
[4:11pm] PeterThoeny: thanks HideyoImazu-san
[4:11pm] PeterThoeny: ttyl