Subject: KampalaMeetingLog2015x12x03.txt
Date: December 3, 2015 7:50:25 PM PST

[2:59pm]  HideyoImazu joined the chat room.
[3:00pm]  HaraldJoerg joined the chat room.
[3:01pm] HideyoImazu: Hi Harald
[3:01pm] PeterThoeny: hi HaraldJoerg & HideyoImazu-san!
[3:01pm] HaraldJoerg: Hi Hideyo-san, Hi Peter
[3:01pm] HideyoImazu: Hi Peter
[3:01pm] PeterThoeny: hurray, we have some rain today!
[3:01pm] HideyoImazu: great news!
[3:02pm] PeterThoeny: a front is passing through right now
[3:02pm] PeterThoeny: but in other news sad in california
[3:02pm] PeterThoeny: the mass shooting yesterday
[3:03pm] PeterThoeny: and today 30 min ago when we drove along the highway we saw 3 helicopter circling
[3:03pm] PeterThoeny: another shooting going on in a nearby hospital right now
[3:03pm] HideyoImazu: oh
[3:04pm] PeterThoeny: my son's girlfriend is in that hostpital for checkup
[3:04pm] PeterThoeny: she and her dad are ok
[3:04pm] PeterThoeny: all on lockdown now, nobody can enter or leave the premise
[3:05pm] HideyoImazu: shooting in a hospital
[3:05pm] HideyoImazu: that's rather rare, right?
[3:05pm] PeterThoeny: well, in average, mass shootings happen every day in the usa
[3:05pm] HaraldJoerg: I would hope so
[3:05pm] PeterThoeny: so this is not rare
[3:06pm] PeterThoeny: but the picture is even worth with non-mass shootings
[3:07pm] PeterThoeny: the usa has 31k gun death/year (1/3 suicide, 2/3 homicide)
[3:07pm] PeterThoeny: this is a staggering number
[3:07pm] HaraldJoerg: Yeah, that's one of the less brilliant parts of the American way of life
[3:08pm] HideyoImazu: similar or more than traffic accidents?
[3:08pm] PeterThoeny: the nra (national rifle association) is controlled by the gun lobby, and the us congress is controlled 
by corporations
[3:09pm] PeterThoeny: car death steeply declined over the years in the usa
[3:09pm] PeterThoeny: now at 30k/year, so comparable to gun death
[3:10pm] HaraldJoerg: That's a big number, too... Germany has 3k/year
[3:11pm] HideyoImazu: 4k/per in japan
[3:11pm] PeterThoeny: sorry, that number is fatal car crashes per year
[3:11pm] HideyoImazu: 4k per year
[3:11pm] PeterThoeny: fatalities by car acctidents is 33k/year
[3:11pm] HideyoImazu: 4k traffic deaths per year in Japan
[3:12pm] PeterThoeny: or 0.047 per 100k population
[3:13pm] PeterThoeny: what else is new?
[3:14pm] HaraldJoerg: Nothing as dramatic as the US news
[3:14pm] HaraldJoerg: We're building a winter garden
[3:14pm] HideyoImazu: I listened to a radio program on the patriot act
[3:15pm] PeterThoeny: covered garden?
[3:15pm] HideyoImazu: it's an episode of WNPR's "On the Media". I highly recommend it
[3:15pm] PeterThoeny: thanks, i'll look it up
[3:16pm] PeterThoeny: time check: +16 min
[3:16pm] PeterThoeny: shall we start?
[3:17pm] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/KampalaReleaseMeeting2015x12x03
[3:17pm] PeterThoeny: 1. Feature Requests for Kampala Release
[3:17pm] PeterThoeny: 2. Extensions
[3:17pm] PeterThoeny: 3. Review Urgent and Not So Urgent Bugs
[3:17pm] PeterThoeny: 4. TWiki-6.0.2 Release Post-Mortem
[3:17pm] PeterThoeny: 5. Miscellaneous
[3:17pm] PeterThoeny: ---++ 1. Feature Requests for Kampala Release
[3:17pm] PeterThoeny: easiest to look at the recent changes
[3:17pm] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/WebChanges
[3:18pm] PeterThoeny: many release related changes
[3:18pm] PeterThoeny: and my new twiki presentation
[3:18pm] PeterThoeny: no feature request changes
[3:19pm] PeterThoeny: any feature you'd like to discuss?
[3:19pm] HaraldJoerg: I'm a bit off-track right now, didn't spend time on TWiki in the past weeks
[3:20pm] HideyoImazu: not a feature request per se, but we should have a "continuous integration" environment/setup
[3:20pm] PeterThoeny: can you elaborate?
[3:20pm] HideyoImazu: the bulk of the release work was spent for testing and fixing test issues
[3:21pm] PeterThoeny: we have automatic update for bugs twiki
[3:21pm] PeterThoeny: we don;t have automatic nightly builds
[3:21pm] HideyoImazu: if we had a continuous integration environment doing testing, release work would be way easier
[3:22pm] PeterThoeny: good point
[3:22pm] PeterThoeny: can we table this for the release post-mortem?
[3:22pm] HideyoImazu: in other words, we should enhance automatic update/build with testing
[3:22pm] HideyoImazu: sure
[3:22pm] PeterThoeny: ---++ 2. Extensions
[3:22pm] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Plugins/WebChanges
[3:22pm] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Plugins/RedirectPlugin
[3:23pm] PeterThoeny: fixed it based on patch i discovered in the support web by joshua tharp
[3:23pm] PeterThoeny: i closed stale support questions, that;s when i saw it
[3:24pm] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Plugins/CgiContrib
[3:24pm] PeterThoeny: we did a couple fixes
[3:24pm] PeterThoeny: actually, just packaging fixes
[3:25pm] PeterThoeny: that's it since last release meeting
[3:25pm] PeterThoeny: anything else?
[3:25pm] HaraldJoerg: Thanks for fixing CgiContrib
[3:25pm] HideyoImazu: nothing from me
[3:25pm] PeterThoeny: sure
[3:25pm] PeterThoeny: ---++ 3. Review Urgent and Not So Urgent Bugs
[3:25pm] PeterThoeny: http://develop.twiki.org/~twiki/cgi-bin/view/Bugs/WebChanges
[3:26pm] PeterThoeny: lots of release lated activities
[3:26pm] PeterThoeny: "release related"
[3:26pm] PeterThoeny: http://develop.twiki.org/~twiki/cgi-bin/view/Bugs/Item7688
[3:26pm] HaraldJoerg: Should Item7620 be closed now?
[3:26pm] PeterThoeny: Item7688: Parts of SEARCH results difficult to select
[3:26pm] PeterThoeny: thank you HideyoImazu-san for working on this
[3:26pm] HideyoImazu: sure
[3:27pm] PeterThoeny: this was bugging me for a long time
[3:28pm] HideyoImazu: I've just closed the item
[3:28pm] PeterThoeny: yes, Item7620 among all other 6.0.2 patch items need to to closed
[3:29pm] PeterThoeny: best to use this report:
[3:29pm] PeterThoeny: http://develop.twiki.org/~twiki/cgi-bin/view/Bugs/ItemsByState?state=Waiting+for+Release
[3:29pm] PeterThoeny: only "patch 6.0.2" should be closed
[3:29pm] PeterThoeny: HideyoImazu-san, you offered to do that, right?
[3:29pm] HideyoImazu: yes
[3:30pm] HideyoImazu: I'll do that
[3:30pm] PeterThoeny: thank you!
[3:30pm] PeterThoeny: http://develop.twiki.org/~twiki/cgi-bin/view/Bugs/Item7699
[3:30pm] PeterThoeny: Item7699: Default configuration is not shown in configure script; apache error log shows: unquoted 
string "useful"
[3:30pm] PeterThoeny: i discovered this bug while sanity testing the 6.0.2 release
[3:31pm] PeterThoeny: too late to put into the release, but already fixed and packaged
[3:31pm] PeterThoeny: i think that's it on bugs since last release meeting
[3:31pm] PeterThoeny: anything else?
[3:32pm] HideyoImazu: no
[3:32pm] HaraldJoerg: Nor from me
[3:32pm] PeterThoeny: ---++ 4. TWiki-6.0.2 Release Post-Mortem
[3:32pm] PeterThoeny: we had a successful release
[3:32pm] PeterThoeny: thank you HideyoImazu-san for the long hours!
[3:33pm] HaraldJoerg: Yes, that looks great!
[3:33pm] PeterThoeny: yes, as you stated, build takes long time mainly because of failing tests
[3:33pm] HideyoImazu: I suppose you worked longer than I did for the release, Peter
[3:33pm] HaraldJoerg: I'll re-build the windows personal edition with 6.0.2 soon-ish
[3:33pm] PeterThoeny: the purpose of the post-mortem is to identify and plan process improvements
[3:34pm] PeterThoeny: well, yes, all the bugs review before the release, and all the doc updates after the release take a 
lot of time
[3:34pm] PeterThoeny: not sure how that process can be improved though
[3:35pm] PeterThoeny: but i am certain that the release package build can be improved
[3:35pm] HideyoImazu: at least automated tests should be run periodically and provide reports
[3:35pm] PeterThoeny: yes
[3:35pm] PeterThoeny: that is what was planned many years back with a "tinderbox"
[3:36pm] HideyoImazu: any documentation on the plan and/or effort?
[3:36pm] HideyoImazu: we should start from there
[3:37pm] PeterThoeny: was discussed at http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/EdinburghReleaseMeeting2006x02x20
[3:37pm] PeterThoeny: will norris was working on it
[3:39pm] PeterThoeny: let me see if there is more...
[3:39pm] HideyoImazu: wow. that was more than 10 years ago
[3:39pm] PeterThoeny: ah, here:
[3:39pm] PeterThoeny: http://develop.twiki.org/~twiki/cgi-bin/view/Bugs/Item289
[3:40pm] PeterThoeny: so there are checkins...
[3:41pm] HaraldJoerg: Ouch... that was before the "core" directory was introduced, right?
[3:43pm] PeterThoeny: found this:
[3:43pm] PeterThoeny: twiki/branches/DEVELOP/test/tinderbox/
[3:43pm] PeterThoeny: found in old checkin e-mail, so should be in svn
[3:44pm] HaraldJoerg: I think the svn-separate-checkout based stuff is too heavy for frequent automated testing
[3:45pm] PeterThoeny: how do you envision continuous testing?
[3:46pm] HideyoImazu: no concrete plan. I need to do research. but there are a lot of open source and otherwise projects 
doing it
[3:46pm] PeterThoeny: yes, it makes sense
[3:46pm] PeterThoeny: i fully support this
[3:47pm] PeterThoeny: it needs a committed developer though
[3:47pm] HideyoImazu: I'll be on vacation during the last half of this month. I need to do a lot of chores but I'll find 
time to work on it
[3:47pm] PeterThoeny: cool!
[3:48pm] PeterThoeny: what else could be improved on release process?
[3:48pm] PeterThoeny: or what else could support the release?
[3:49pm] PeterThoeny: i think the actuall release has still too many manual steps
[3:49pm] HideyoImazu: agreed
[3:49pm] HaraldJoerg: yes, indeed
[3:49pm] HaraldJoerg: It is scary
[3:49pm] PeterThoeny: ideally you would run a script with parameters, you go for dinner, and have the .zip, .tgz and .md5 
ready
[3:50pm] HideyoImazu: that's right
[3:50pm] HaraldJoerg: I've been trying to do things like that for building the personal edition... it's just two commands 
now
[3:50pm] PeterThoeny: so, if you look it from a nightly build pov you could do both at the same time
[3:50pm] PeterThoeny: nightly build by calling the script from a cron
[3:50pm] PeterThoeny: and actual release by calling it manually with different parameters
[3:51pm] PeterThoeny: the challenge is automatic update of release notes with bug items for that release
[3:51pm] PeterThoeny: and patching the release notes with the actual build number used
[3:52pm] PeterThoeny: but for now, i think a first step is to get the tinderbox with test reports done
[3:52pm] PeterThoeny: this will be a big help
[3:53pm] PeterThoeny: anything else on release?
[3:53pm] PeterThoeny: what is pending?
[3:53pm] PeterThoeny: - announce on wikimatrix and sf.net
[3:53pm] PeterThoeny: - build twiki-vm
[3:54pm] PeterThoeny: i already have done announcements on mailing lists, twiki.org blog, twitter, fg group and page, 
linkedin group and page
[3:54pm] PeterThoeny: what else needs to be done?
[3:54pm] PeterThoeny: - close items (as discussed)
[3:54pm] PeterThoeny: anything else?
[3:55pm] HaraldJoerg: TWikiPersonal should be re-based on official 6.0.2
[3:55pm] PeterThoeny: ah, yes, indeed!
[3:55pm] PeterThoeny: can you work on this harald?
[3:55pm] HaraldJoerg: Yes
[3:55pm] PeterThoeny: cool!
[3:56pm] HaraldJoerg: It will be the first test whether my two-command build works on a SVN branch, too
[3:57pm] PeterThoeny: ok
[3:57pm] PeterThoeny: on twiki-vm, here is a though
[3:57pm] PeterThoeny: what if i ask for some money for downloading the new twiki-vm?
[3:58pm] PeterThoeny: this would be a convenience fee for the user
[3:58pm] PeterThoeny: and it would support my costs of the twiki server
[3:58pm] PeterThoeny: i pay out of my own pocket for many years (except for a period when twiki inc was paying)
[3:59pm] HideyoImazu: it's worth trying
[3:59pm] HaraldJoerg: Do you know of productive uses of the TWiki VM?
[4:00pm] PeterThoeny: so, the download form would have these items to select: .zip, .tgz, .md5, old vm ova, new vm ova ($15)
[4:00pm] PeterThoeny: so user has the choice of getting the older vm for free, and the latest for $15
[4:00pm] PeterThoeny: what do you think?
[4:01pm] HideyoImazu: no objection but why $15?
[4:01pm] PeterThoeny: to little, too much?
[4:02pm] HideyoImazu: I'm just curious. why $15?
[4:02pm] PeterThoeny: just a hunch what an admin is willing to pay
[4:03pm] PeterThoeny: ah, i should check what other vm packages cost on the vmware marketplace
[4:04pm] PeterThoeny: my concern though is if this gives a negative impression to open source developers, as in "why should 
i contribute for free when thus guy is making money on it"
[4:04pm] HideyoImazu: reasonable people know that running an open source project take some money
[4:05pm] PeterThoeny: i am not concerned about the admins paying for it, more about open source developers
[4:05pm] HideyoImazu: if you put some justification for the money, reasonable people understand
[4:05pm] PeterThoeny: we have to create an invting environment
[4:06pm] PeterThoeny: yes that is true
[4:06pm] PeterThoeny: HaraldJoerg:  any thoughs on this?
[4:06pm] HaraldJoerg: The question is whether admins are actually making buying decisions for an enterprise wiki
[4:07pm] PeterThoeny: employees have a low discretionary budget
[4:07pm] PeterThoeny: if the cost is $15 oit should be ok, if it is $200 it needs to go through an approval process
[4:07pm] PeterThoeny: hence the "willing to pay" question
[4:08pm] PeterThoeny: as an admin, i can spend $15 and get up and running in 30 min, or install natively and am up and 
running in a few hours
[4:09pm] PeterThoeny: HaraldJoerg:  would selling the vm put you off from contributing?
[4:09pm] HideyoImazu: if you expense, $15 and $200 may be almost the same
[4:09pm] HaraldJoerg: Haha, not at all.
[4:09pm] PeterThoeny: 
[4:09pm] PeterThoeny: HideyoImazu-san: i think it depends on the company
[4:10pm] HideyoImazu: sure
[4:10pm] PeterThoeny: yes with big companies, not so much with smb
[4:10pm] HaraldJoerg: But I think that the question of paying 15$ vs. installing manually is actually the second or third 
step of the process
[4:10pm] PeterThoeny: meaning?
[4:11pm] HaraldJoerg: The first step is "are we going to evaluate an enterprise wiki as collaboration tool?"
[4:11pm] HaraldJoerg: The second step is "which ones should we evaluate?"
[4:12pm] HaraldJoerg: (My current occupation is product manager, I've to deal a lot with buying processes of different markets)
[4:12pm] PeterThoeny: do you think $15 for evaluation is too much?
[4:12pm] HaraldJoerg: No.
[4:13pm] PeterThoeny: ok, so i think my might give it a try
[4:13pm] HaraldJoerg: I'd rather combine it with a one-day workshop, leave the VM at the site, and charge 1000$.
[4:13pm] PeterThoeny: if nobody buys i can always put it back for free 
[4:14pm] PeterThoeny: i have to think about the workshop idea
[4:14pm] PeterThoeny: time check: +74 min
[4:14pm] PeterThoeny: i have an errant to go to
[4:14pm] PeterThoeny: shall we close?
[4:14pm] HideyoImazu: sure
[4:14pm] HaraldJoerg: I only have to go to bed 
[4:15pm] PeterThoeny: thanks both!
[4:15pm] PeterThoeny: i''ll post the logs and minutes as usual
[4:15pm] PeterThoeny: ttyl!
[4:15pm] HideyoImazu: ttyl
[4:15pm] HaraldJoerg: ttyl
[4:16pm]  HaraldJoerg left the chat room.
[4:26pm]  HideyoImazu left the chat room. (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)