Subject: KampalaMeetingLog2015x05x21.txt
Date: May 21, 2015 5:06:12 PM PDT

[3:01pm]  HaraldJoerg joined the chat room.
[3:01pm] HaraldJoerg: Good evening!
[3:02pm] PeterThoeny: guten abend harald!
[3:03pm] PeterThoeny: wie geht es in deutschland?
[3:03pm] HaraldJoerg: Dauerregen 
[3:04pm]  HideyoImazu joined the chat room.
[3:04pm] HideyoImazu: Hi Peter
[3:04pm] PeterThoeny: regenschirm!
[3:04pm] HideyoImazu: Hi Harald
[3:04pm] PeterThoeny: hi hideyo-san!
[3:05pm] PeterThoeny: please send some rain our ways
[3:05pm] HideyoImazu: I wish I could
[3:06pm] PeterThoeny: there is too much rain in texas, and almost no rain in california
[3:07pm] PeterThoeny: and exacly one day before a rocket launch event we had some rain
[3:07pm] PeterThoeny: because of that the event was cancelled (too muddy dirt roads to the field)
[3:07pm] PeterThoeny: my son wanted to do his level 2 high power rocket certification
[3:07pm] PeterThoeny: he was bummed
[3:08pm] PeterThoeny: next chance is mid june in black rock desert in nevada
[3:08pm] PeterThoeny: time check: +8 min, shall we start?
[3:08pm] HideyoImazu: sure
[3:08pm] HaraldJoerg: sure
[3:09pm] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/KampalaReleaseMeeting2015x05x21
[3:09pm] PeterThoeny: agenda as usual:
[3:09pm]  timothe joined the chat room.
[3:09pm] PeterThoeny: 1. Feature Requests for Kampala Release
[3:09pm] PeterThoeny: 2. Extensions
[3:09pm] PeterThoeny: 3. Review Urgent and Not So Urgent Bugs
[3:09pm] PeterThoeny: 4. Miscellaneous
[3:09pm] PeterThoeny: hi timothe, welcome back!
[3:09pm] PeterThoeny: we are just getting started
[3:09pm] timothe: Is there some reason you need me for this meeting? I haven't done anything wiki in quite some time...
[3:10pm] PeterThoeny: not really, i just thought you might be interested on where we are
[3:10pm] PeterThoeny: ---++ 1. Feature Requests for Kampala Release
[3:10pm] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/TWikiFeatureProposals
[3:10pm] PeterThoeny: and changes at:
[3:10pm] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/WebChanges
[3:11pm] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/AddCGIpmToTWikiCore - by harald
[3:11pm] PeterThoeny: it looks like you made good progress
[3:11pm] PeterThoeny: can you give an update?
[3:11pm] HaraldJoerg: I think this is done
[3:11pm] PeterThoeny: cool!
[3:12pm] HaraldJoerg: Need to copy to the branch, but otherwise there's no problem so far
[3:12pm] PeterThoeny: i see the status is till UnderInvestigation, can you change?
[3:12pm] PeterThoeny: yes, for this i think it is good to sync to 6.0 branch
[3:12pm] HaraldJoerg: The current CGI version is not suitable because it has more incompatible changes
[3:12pm] PeterThoeny: yes, cgi is a moving target
[3:12pm] HaraldJoerg: Ok, I can change the status
[3:12pm] PeterThoeny: and with a defualt ubunty twiki does not run due to cgi changes
[3:13pm] HaraldJoerg: If we're going PSGI, we'll be able to get rid of it in the long run
[3:13pm] timothe: Well, I would push back on the CGI folks for breaking interfaces.  TWiki is not a minor customer.  
They should be keeping backward compatibility.
[3:13pm] HaraldJoerg: No, Peter, default Perls still ship with "old" CGIs
[3:14pm] HaraldJoerg: timothe:  They did a lot of work to inform CGI users, and I think we have a decent plan
[3:14pm] PeterThoeny: really? i see a number of support questions that consigure does not run on ubunty
[3:14pm] PeterThoeny: "configure"
[3:14pm] HaraldJoerg: That's all the folks who installed from CPAN because it will be expelled from Perl core.... in 
Perl 5.22!
[3:15pm] PeterThoeny: ah
[3:15pm] HaraldJoerg: No Linux distribution is even close to this Perl version
[3:15pm] PeterThoeny: ok
[3:15pm] PeterThoeny: next item:
[3:15pm] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/SearchAttachmentsInAWeb - by pth
[3:15pm]  jmacdone joined the chat room.
[3:16pm] PeterThoeny: i posted this more for reference, i consider this a "no-brainer" feature
[3:16pm] HaraldJoerg: Is a nice feature, I had done a similar thing much more complicated years ago
[3:16pm] PeterThoeny: hi jmacdone, welcome to the twiki meeting! could you please introduce yourself?
[3:16pm] jmacdone: Hi, I'm James Macdonell from CSU San Bernardino
[3:17pm] PeterThoeny: from proposal:  This feature adds a WebSearchAttachments to every web, complementing the existing 
WebSearch and WebSearchAdvanced topics.
[3:17pm] jmacdone: I submitted a patch back in January, so I imagine that's how I got the invite
[3:17pm] PeterThoeny: thanks james! yes, i sent the invite to some twiki users
[3:17pm] PeterThoeny: since james is new here, could everyone give a one-liner intro?
[3:18pm] timothe: The FeatureProposals topic is filled with items over a year old.  It would be a lot more useful if it 
were updated....
[3:18pm] PeterThoeny: yes, true
[3:18pm] PeterThoeny: let me take this as an action item, e.g. park old proposals that have no action
[3:19pm] HaraldJoerg: Well, why not... I'm Harald Jörg from Munich, came back after a five-year break since I had some 
needs and some crazy ideas
[3:19pm] HideyoImazu: I'm guilty in that regard
[3:19pm] timothe: OK: I'm a TWiki user, sometime contributor.  Use TWiki for a family project now; have used it in 
various corporate environments in the past.
[3:20pm] HaraldJoerg: I agree that a cleanup in the feature requests would be fine. There's nothing bad to have a topic 
"parked"
[3:20pm] PeterThoeny: and i started twiki many many years ago when i had a need for a knowledge base app for customer 
support while working for takefive software - that's there the t in twiki comes from btw
[3:21pm] HaraldJoerg: Oh - I guessed it was T like in Thoeny 
[3:21pm] PeterThoeny: that is what most people assume 
[3:21pm] PeterThoeny: i initally called twiki t5wiki, then cut the 5
[3:22pm] HaraldJoerg: When I started with TWiki, you worked for WindRiver, IIRC
[3:22pm] PeterThoeny: only afterwards i found out that there was a robot of the same name in an old tv series
[3:22pm] HaraldJoerg: BTW: Do you know erin-mode for Emacs?
[3:22pm] PeterThoeny: yes, windriver acquired takefive software
[3:23pm] PeterThoeny: no, i do not know erin-mode
[3:23pm] HaraldJoerg: It is for editing TWiki sources, and it is named after the female co-character in the twiki TW series
[3:24pm] HaraldJoerg: Not that it is very useful compared to today's WYSIWYG... I tried it but abandoned it years ago
[3:24pm] PeterThoeny: aha
[3:24pm] PeterThoeny: back to feature, the WebSearchAttachments was interesting/challenging to implement:
[3:24pm] PeterThoeny: the FormattedSearch can only format topic data and formfield data, so i had to use a trick to format 
attachments
[3:25pm] PeterThoeny: formatted search has a little known feature called $query() where you can use twiki query syntax
[3:25pm] PeterThoeny: using that and some spreadsheet magic i iterate over the attachments for each topic
[3:26pm] PeterThoeny: do you have any feedback on this feature, and any suggestions for enhancements?
[3:27pm] HaraldJoerg: In our department TWiki, I created a TWiki application which could make good use of it
[3:28pm] PeterThoeny: nice
[3:28pm] HaraldJoerg: Basically, it is an archive for ISO9001-relevant documents, and these usually come as MS-Office or 
PDF documents
[3:29pm] HaraldJoerg: There is a convention for file names, but not for TWiki topics (they are AUTOINC'd), so people can 
either use the keyword search or the query for file names
[3:29pm] PeterThoeny: please note that this requires a recent core for search, and a recent spreadhseetplugin that 
handles '''triple quotes''' and newlines
[3:31pm] HideyoImazu: incidentally, were you inspired with triple quotes by Python?
[3:31pm] PeterThoeny: the triple quotes are needed as indication for a string in comments
[3:32pm] PeterThoeny: not from python
[3:32pm] PeterThoeny: i think i scanned other wiki's syntaxes
[3:32pm] PeterThoeny: the function parses needs to be able to reliably parse parameters
[3:33pm] PeterThoeny: a paramter in triple quotes is just one parameter, even if it contains commas or parenthesis
[3:33pm] PeterThoeny: next:
[3:33pm] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/NamespaceForDeveloperModules - by harald
[3:34pm] PeterThoeny: btw the clock starts when a committment date and committed developer is filled in
[3:34pm] HaraldJoerg: Ah, this topic name is not quite right... It is a little broader in intent
[3:34pm] PeterThoeny: would you like to discuss this feature now?
[3:34pm] PeterThoeny: since new topic go ahead and rename
[3:35pm] PeterThoeny: for older topics i think it is better not to change the url
[3:35pm] HaraldJoerg: I can explain the motivation and what I've achieved so far
[3:35pm] timothe: The problem with a generic "TWikiDEV
[3:35pm] timothe: namespace is that you need a registry for what goes in it.
[3:35pm] HaraldJoerg: timothe:  Yes, you'd need a registry
[3:36pm] HaraldJoerg: But since this is only "among developers" and not users, this could be done in Codev
[3:36pm] timothe: So that means establishing one on twiki.org, which is fine.
[3:36pm] timothe: The problem then becomes timing
[3:37pm] HaraldJoerg: I think the more interesting challenge is about the methodology
[3:37pm] timothe: If it's expensive to sign out a namespace, people won't do it until it's late.  That creates bugs when 
the name is assigned.
[3:37pm] timothe: If it's too cheap, names will be assigned and abandoned.
[3:38pm] HaraldJoerg: That's what release meetings are for... I don't think this is the most pressing challenge
[3:38pm] timothe: The good news is that there are so few developers at the moment, that we can probably avoid politics 
over who gets the "good" names.
[3:38pm] timothe: OK, so let's hear your challenge list.
[3:38pm] HaraldJoerg: Look at CPAN: They manage to settle "good" names conflicts in a much wider circle
[3:39pm] HaraldJoerg: I think the interesting thing is how, and in what timeframe, we refactor the developer infrastructure
[3:40pm] HaraldJoerg: ...and which of the TWiki-specific methods we want, or accept, to be replaced by mainstream Perl methods
[3:41pm] HaraldJoerg: My pressing motivation was that I needed a method to create a TWiki distribution in seconds and not 
in hours (like today, if you follow the SVN checkout method of BuildingARelease)
[3:42pm] timothe: Well... partly its a question of what's the return on investment, given the limited developer resources.  
The current stuff IS ugly, but I have scripted it from time to time.  That might be a more efficient work-around.
[3:42pm] HaraldJoerg: For the TWikiPersonal thing I'm working on, I created distributions by the dozen, especially for 
bootstrapping
[3:43pm] PeterThoeny: i like the idea of separating out the dev infra into its own namespace
[3:43pm] HaraldJoerg: The nice thing is that my current work is not at all depending on TWiki modules
[3:43pm] HaraldJoerg: However, it needs about half of CPAN 
[3:44pm] timothe: Many of the plugins/extensions also have CPAN dependencies.
[3:44pm] HaraldJoerg: Yes, they are an interesting challenge for the Windows all-in-one package, but I make good progress
[3:45pm] PeterThoeny: personally i prefer to keep the dependency on cpan as small as possible, because the average twiki 
admin has little or no experience in cpan
[3:45pm] timothe: I like the idea - but it's a big ocean to boil.  Any plan has to take into account the limited resources, 
retraining developers, and that means a phased approache.
[3:45pm] PeterThoeny: this is for core and core extensions
[3:45pm] HaraldJoerg: Correct.  But I'd expect that TWiki developers would accept a bigger CPAN load
[3:45pm] PeterThoeny: agreed
[3:45pm] timothe: CPAN depenencies shouldn't be a big deal, as configure will automagically fetch them, right?
[3:46pm] HaraldJoerg: ....and, given my current PAR experience, one could ship a developer executable as easy as we can 
ship a TWiki executable
[3:47pm] HaraldJoerg: timothe:  CPAN is a deal nevertheless. In commercial environments, you can't just CPAN, because 
there are service contracts for Linux distributions which usually offer the same packages, but in different versions
[3:48pm] HaraldJoerg: Keeping a mixture of CPAN and distribution modules up to date is a nightmare.  Our current CGI 
experience is a fine example of that.
[3:48pm] PeterThoeny: yup
[3:49pm] timothe: Maybe a reasonable project would be to figure out how to map CPAN names to yum (fedora) and apt 
(debian) names, and let configure talk to them too.
[3:49pm] HaraldJoerg: Regarding re-training:  The nice feature of "modern" Perl infrastructures is that they reward 
convention-compliance
[3:50pm] HaraldJoerg: I'd rather go the way we go with CGI: For "vibrant" CPAN modules which are not (or no longer) in 
the core, bundle them with the Plugin/Contrib
[3:51pm] timothe: Shipping our own frozen copies is a long-term support nightmare.  It may work for a while, while you 
(or someone) is motivated to maintain, but then it will degenerate.  The fork folks, last I heard, were getting out of 
the shipping private CPAN for that reason.
[3:51pm] PeterThoeny: one problem of installing cpan modules via configure is that they are installed as the webserver 
user, which is not as secure as root, and which can introduce dependency issues in the future
[3:52pm] timothe: Peter, yes, but that's no worse than twiki shipping a private copy...
[3:52pm] PeterThoeny: yup, it's always a tradeoff
[3:52pm] timothe: And if configure could talk to the package managers, it could grab the "supported" versions - either 
directly, or make an install script for the root user to execute...
[3:54pm] HaraldJoerg: timothe:  But on the other hand, this would get you quickly into the platform nightmare.  So many 
different distributions...
[3:54pm] PeterThoeny: time check: +54 min
[3:55pm] timothe: but not that many package managers.  If you supported yum and apt (say), others would likely add plugins 
for their less common ones.  I think it just needs a trailblazer...
[3:56pm] PeterThoeny: HaraldJoerg:  it would be nice if you can drive the separation of dev stuff from core and extensions
[3:56pm] HaraldJoerg: Sure
[3:57pm] PeterThoeny: let's move on
[3:57pm] HaraldJoerg: Shall I explain what I've done so far, and why, and what's the price?
[3:57pm] PeterThoeny: ok, please do
[3:57pm] PeterThoeny: we do not have much on plugins, so we can skip extensions this time
[3:58pm] HaraldJoerg: I've created a perl CGI application and (shudder) it is based in MooseX::App::Command
[3:58pm] HaraldJoerg: I've done a lot of Moose stuff in recent years, and while it is a learning curve, found that it pays 
off quickly
[3:59pm] HaraldJoerg: You get consistency in command line parameters, "automatic" help, and easy extensibility
[4:00pm] HaraldJoerg: I would not (not yet  recommend to switch TWiki itself to Moose, but for the tools there's a big gain
[4:01pm] HaraldJoerg: Especially for tools you don't run every day, the clear convention how to write self-documenting 
commands is a big win
[4:02pm] PeterThoeny: yes, using conventions makes life easier
[4:03pm] HaraldJoerg: Creating a working distribution from SVN is a matter of one command for me:  
twikidev collect --manifest=[what to bundle] --root=[where's your core dir] --destination=[where to bundle to]
[4:03pm] timothe: Sorry, I have to drop.
[4:03pm] PeterThoeny: time check: +63 min, shall we wrap up soon?
[4:04pm]  timothe left the chat room.
[4:04pm] PeterThoeny: HaraldJoerg:  that looks very useful
[4:04pm] HaraldJoerg: Ok
[4:05pm] PeterThoeny: the current build process is to complicated
[4:05pm] PeterThoeny: a single line to build sounds wonderful!
[4:05pm] HaraldJoerg: The other one is even more powerful: From a distribution, it creates a Windows executable:  
twikidev packtwp --root=[where the distribution is]
[4:05pm] PeterThoeny: nice!
[4:06pm] HaraldJoerg: Which creates a zip file you just need to unpack and run (I've updated the PortableTWiki topic today)
[4:06pm] PeterThoeny: we know something similar on small scale:  ./build.pl upload
[4:06pm] PeterThoeny: for extensions
[4:06pm] HaraldJoerg: And, BTW, I've created a sourceforge account - shall we start shipping?
[4:07pm] PeterThoeny: sure, anytime you are ready
[4:07pm] HaraldJoerg: Yes, I know build.pl, but it is pretty quirky
[4:07pm] PeterThoeny: what is your sf user name
[4:07pm] HaraldJoerg: That would be hjoerg
[4:09pm] PeterThoeny: you are now a project admin
[4:09pm] HaraldJoerg: Ouch 
[4:10pm] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/ProductionReleaseChecklist has a link to sf upload instructions
[4:11pm] HaraldJoerg: Ah, thanks
[4:11pm] PeterThoeny: oops, that link is now broken
[4:11pm] PeterThoeny: darn change of urls
[4:12pm] HaraldJoerg: I think for Windows I'll just provide a ZIP... Windows does these natively now
[4:13pm] HaraldJoerg: I'll try to figure it out on the weekend
[4:13pm] PeterThoeny: the sf docs is a mess
[4:14pm] PeterThoeny: links back and forth leading to nowhere, and search searches sf projects, not docs
[4:14pm] HaraldJoerg: Indeed... However, TWiki's developer documentation is slightly messy, too 
[4:14pm] PeterThoeny: 
[4:15pm] HaraldJoerg: In general, I would prefer to gently move TWiki to a mainstream Perl development ecosystem
[4:15pm] PeterThoeny: i googled and found a 3rd party site:  
http://www.scriptol.com/how-to/upload-web-pages-to-sourceforge.php
[4:15pm] HaraldJoerg: Bookmarked!
[4:16pm] PeterThoeny: i am for it if it helps recruit perl developers
[4:16pm] PeterThoeny: as for directoy structure on sf. net
[4:16pm] PeterThoeny: https://sourceforge.net/projects/twiki/files/
[4:17pm] HaraldJoerg: I'd guess so. I have learned that Perl is still much of a community language
[4:17pm] PeterThoeny: what do you suggest for location of your distributions?
[4:17pm] PeterThoeny: new top level dir?
[4:18pm] PeterThoeny: now we have this dir for latest release: 
[4:18pm] PeterThoeny: https://sourceforge.net/projects/twiki/files/TWiki%20for%20all%20Platforms/TWiki-6.0.1/
[4:18pm] HaraldJoerg: Or directly drop it to TWiki for Windows Personal
[4:18pm] PeterThoeny: one option is to simple drop the distros in same directory
[4:19pm] PeterThoeny: yes that is one option
[4:19pm] HaraldJoerg: There's a 4.0.5 zip, and we could push the 6.0.1 zip next to it
[4:19pm] PeterThoeny: but with that options, how about the linux distro?
[4:21pm] PeterThoeny: well, for windows dir, better to create new subdir with twiki version
[4:21pm] HaraldJoerg: I didn't build a Linux TWP yet.  Should be pretty easy, depending on the level of packaging
[4:21pm] PeterThoeny: just planning head, better to think about dir structure beforehand
[4:22pm] HaraldJoerg: I have no experience with sourceforge
[4:22pm] PeterThoeny: a 3rd option: new "TWiki-Distributions" dir, below that twiki version specific dirs, in those 
all distros of a version
[4:23pm] PeterThoeny: and create a "Legacy" dir, and move "TWiki with Installers" and "TWiki for Windows Personal" into 
the legacy one
[4:23pm] HaraldJoerg: I'd prefer a "for personal use" folder, because that's what matters from a customer point of view
[4:25pm] PeterThoeny: or, for 3rd option, instead of "TWiki-Distributions" all it "Portable-TWiki" or whatever name you 
chose for the personal twiki
[4:25pm] HaraldJoerg: Ok, a "TWiki-Distributions" makes a lot of sense, too.. or "TWiki-Bundles"?
[4:25pm] HaraldJoerg: I'm fine with TWikiPersonal, which fits better to the positioning
[4:25pm] HaraldJoerg: "Portable" is more like a side effect
[4:26pm] PeterThoeny: "TWiki-Personal" sounds good
[4:26pm] PeterThoeny: ok, please go ahead with the directory and upload
[4:26pm] PeterThoeny: do you want to do the legacy move, or shall i?
[4:27pm] HaraldJoerg: I'm a first-time sourceforge user, so I am not too confident right now
[4:27pm] HaraldJoerg: Can experiment on the weekend. I need some sleep soonish, and Friday is rather busy
[4:28pm] PeterThoeny: well, sf file system is just a file system
[4:28pm] HaraldJoerg: Ah, that reminds me that my twikidev packtwp ought to create a MD5, too (easy)
[4:28pm] PeterThoeny: ok, let me know later
[4:29pm] PeterThoeny: let's close the meeting
[4:29pm] HaraldJoerg: Ok
[4:29pm] HideyoImazu: ttyl
[4:29pm] PeterThoeny: thank you HaraldJoerg & HideyoImazu-san & jmacdone!
[4:29pm] HaraldJoerg: ttyl
[4:29pm] PeterThoeny: i'll post the logs and update the minutes
[4:29pm] PeterThoeny: ttyl
[4:30pm] HaraldJoerg: And I'll commit the twikidev stuff, just if someone wants to peek at it
[4:31pm] HaraldJoerg: ...and expand the TWiki topic about the conventions I have in mind, and the way to get there
[4:31pm] PeterThoeny: found the official sf doc: https://sourceforge.net/p/forge/documentation/File%20Management/
[4:33pm] HaraldJoerg: Ah, fine... I'm fairly familiar with scp, sftp and rsync over SSH, so I should find my way through
[4:35pm] HaraldJoerg: so, good night... 01:34 here... rain has stopped, and I'm about to fall asleep over my keybuard
[4:35pm]  HaraldJoerg left the chat room.
[4:35pm] PeterThoeny: good night
[4:35pm]  HideyoImazu left the chat room. (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)