Subject: KampalaMeetingLog2014x11x06.txt
Date: November 6, 2014 4:54:27 PM PST

[2:55pm]  HideyoImazu joined the chat room.
[3:00pm] PeterThoeny: hi HideyoImazu-san!
[3:00pm] PeterThoeny: what's new?
[3:01pm]  HaraldJoerg joined the chat room.
[3:01pm] PeterThoeny: hi HaraldJoerg!
[3:01pm] HideyoImazu: not much
[3:01pm] HideyoImazu: I was in Shanghai last week
[3:02pm] HaraldJoerg: Hello Peter, hello Hideyo-san
[3:02pm] HideyoImazu: the Great Firewall got a bit tougher
[3:02pm] PeterThoeny: not much news on my side, except i'll be in switzerland the second half of nov
[3:02pm] HideyoImazu: Hi Harald. Hi Peter
[3:02pm] PeterThoeny: ah, no fb unless you use a proxy server
[3:03pm] PeterThoeny: what is new in germany?
[3:03pm] HideyoImazu: right. even some vpn services which used to be fine became unusable
[3:04pm] HaraldJoerg: Not enough sleep  Too many business trips
[3:04pm] PeterThoeny: sleep is important
[3:04pm] PeterThoeny: don't stress yourself too much!
[3:05pm] HideyoImazu: what's new  for your, Peter?
[3:05pm] HaraldJoerg: If my texts are incomprehensible then probably my head fell on the keyboard
[3:05pm] PeterThoeny: haha
[3:05pm] PeterThoeny: same old here
[3:05pm] PeterThoeny: but looking forward to the trip to my hometown
[3:06pm] PeterThoeny: my mom's 80st bd
[3:06pm] HideyoImazu: which city?
[3:06pm] PeterThoeny: small village in swiss alps
[3:06pm] PeterThoeny: near davos
[3:07pm] PeterThoeny: time check: +7 min
[3:07pm] PeterThoeny: let's start
[3:07pm] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/KampalaReleaseMeeting2014x11x06
[3:07pm] PeterThoeny: 1. Feature Requests for Kampala Release
[3:07pm] PeterThoeny: 2. Extensions
[3:07pm] PeterThoeny: 3. Review Urgent and Not So Urgent Bugs
[3:07pm] PeterThoeny: 4. TWiki-6.0.1 Post-Mortem
[3:07pm] PeterThoeny: 5. Miscellaneous
[3:08pm] PeterThoeny: i have one misc item to discuss
[3:08pm] PeterThoeny: but first:
[3:08pm] PeterThoeny: ---++ 1. Feature Requests for Kampala Release
[3:08pm] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/TWikiFeatureProposals
[3:08pm] PeterThoeny: let's see
[3:08pm] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/SMTPUseTLS
[3:09pm] PeterThoeny: this is actually an old accespted proposal
[3:09pm] PeterThoeny: with patch, but not much docs
[3:09pm] PeterThoeny: using tls is mandatory if gmail is used as the mail server
[3:09pm] HaraldJoerg: The problem with this patch is that it relies on an unmaintained module
[3:09pm] PeterThoeny: so this would be a useful feature
[3:09pm] PeterThoeny: ah
[3:10pm] PeterThoeny: Net::SMTP::TLS is unmaintained?
[3:10pm] HaraldJoerg: Net::SMTPS would be better choice
[3:10pm] PeterThoeny: ah
[3:10pm] PeterThoeny: you are the expert
[3:10pm] HaraldJoerg: An intermediate was Net::SMTP::TLS::ButMaintained, which says a lot 
[3:10pm] PeterThoeny: haha
[3:11pm] HaraldJoerg: I've never tried any of those, though
[3:11pm] PeterThoeny: harald, would you interested in looking into this?
[3:12pm] HaraldJoerg: When I get some days of sleep... and I'd have to figure out how to test this reliably
[3:13pm] PeterThoeny: simply use a gmail account
[3:14pm] HaraldJoerg: Still not easy to automate tests... need to check the gmail account after some delay
[3:15pm] PeterThoeny: for now i added a note of your recommendation to the proposal topic
[3:15pm] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/ViewFileRedirectHandler - by hideyo-san
[3:16pm] PeterThoeny: proposed 14 days ago, so automatically accepted
[3:16pm] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/AutoSectionsPluginIncludedInReleases
[3:16pm] HideyoImazu: this is in parallel with ViewRedirectHandler
[3:16pm] PeterThoeny: this is an accepted proposal
[3:17pm] PeterThoeny: but there are some bugs that need to be fixed
[3:17pm] HideyoImazu: still remaining?
[3:18pm] PeterThoeny: yes, see my latest comments at http://develop.twiki.org/~twiki4/cgi-bin/view/Bugs/Item7550
[3:19pm] HideyoImazu: ok
[3:19pm] HideyoImazu: i'll let Mahiro work on it
[3:19pm] PeterThoeny: thanks
[3:19pm] HideyoImazu: and then i'll make it bundled to release
[3:19pm] PeterThoeny: any other feature?
[3:20pm] PeterThoeny: nothing from me
[3:21pm] PeterThoeny: ---++ 2. Extensions
[3:21pm] HideyoImazu: nothing from me either
[3:21pm] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Plugins/WebChanges
[3:21pm] PeterThoeny: last meeting we skipped this, so let's review 30 days
[3:21pm] PeterThoeny: a lot of activity
[3:22pm] PeterThoeny: NotifyAuthorsPlugin - now has a nice confirmation dialog box where you can change the recipient 
list and notification email text
[3:22pm] PeterThoeny: CsvToTWikiAddOn - new add-on to create a set of twiki-froms-based topics from a csv file
[3:23pm] PeterThoeny: useful to migrate a database table into a twiki app
[3:23pm] HaraldJoerg: I wonder... could this conversion be done on-the-fly, as a plugin?
[3:24pm] PeterThoeny: well, there are several possibilities
[3:24pm] HaraldJoerg: Like this: Attach the CSV file and then have some %CSV2TABLE{...}%
[3:25pm] PeterThoeny: for on the fly there are two plugins to embed a sql query into twiki topics
[3:25pm] PeterThoeny: DatabasePlugin and DBIQueryPlugin
[3:26pm] HaraldJoerg: Those won't help me because I am not allowed to do direct SQL statements. I can use a GUI or 
download a CSV file
[3:26pm] HaraldJoerg: BTW: The CSV file is UTF16 encoded 
[3:26pm] PeterThoeny: and there is ExcelImportExportPlugin to import/export excel either as twiki table or set of 
forms based topics, or embed attached excel data in topic as table
[3:27pm] HaraldJoerg: Ok, I should have a look at ExcelImportExportPlugin
[3:27pm] HideyoImazu: ExcelImportExportPlugin doesn't support CSV, though
[3:27pm] PeterThoeny: i created the add-on for a client that wanted to migrate a top field priorities app from a web 
based database into twiki
[3:27pm] HideyoImazu: and it supports .xls but not .xlsx
[3:27pm] PeterThoeny: yes
[3:28pm] PeterThoeny:   * SpreadSheetPlugin - new RANDSTRING() function to generate random passwords and license keys
[3:28pm] HideyoImazu: so it may not meet Harald's need
[3:29pm] HaraldJoerg: Thanks for the info, Hideyo-san... indeed, that's too error prone.
[3:29pm] PeterThoeny: harald: your need likely requires a new plugin
[3:30pm] PeterThoeny: should be realtively easy to create
[3:30pm] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Plugins/ExecutePlugin
[3:30pm] PeterThoeny: new plugin to safely execute shell scripts and perl code on the server
[3:31pm] HaraldJoerg: Yes, but then... there are more urgent things on my todo list.  This would rather be a 
replacement for a fairly working non-TWiki app I am running
[3:31pm] PeterThoeny: instead of creating new one-off plugins for various integrations, you simply define a new 
script in configure
[3:31pm] PeterThoeny: i created this plugin for a client need:
[3:32pm] PeterThoeny: gui in twiki for a license management software that is command line based
[3:32pm] PeterThoeny: what do you think? useful in your case?
[3:34pm] PeterThoeny: here is a sample configuration for an echo script:
[3:34pm] PeterThoeny:  {
[3:34pm] PeterThoeny:   name => 'echo',
[3:34pm] PeterThoeny:   type => 'script',
[3:34pm] PeterThoeny:   command => '/bin/echo "%text%"',
[3:34pm] PeterThoeny:   filter => '[^a-zA-Z0-9_\\- ]',
[3:34pm] PeterThoeny:  },
[3:35pm] PeterThoeny: this is in the $TWiki::cfg{Plugins}{ExecutePlugin}{Scripts} = [ ] setting
[3:35pm] PeterThoeny: now you can call it with %EXECUTE{ "echo" text="Hello world!" }%
[3:37pm] HideyoImazu: I wonder why not {plugins}{ExecutePlugin}{Scripts} = {'echo' => {type=>'script', ..}}
[3:37pm] HaraldJoerg: I'd only very reluctantly execute commands under the web server's user id
[3:38pm] PeterThoeny: hideyo-san: true, could have been done that way, possibly better that way
[3:38pm] PeterThoeny: i borrowed code to be faster in coding 
[3:38pm] PeterThoeny: harald; the whole point is to make it safe
[3:39pm] PeterThoeny: assuming you know how to apply the filter properly you are safe
[3:39pm] HideyoImazu: there are plugins executing commands under the hood. so I think this is a nice addition.
[3:39pm] PeterThoeny: the filter is applied to all %something%
[3:39pm] PeterThoeny: and the command can have anything you like
[3:40pm] PeterThoeny: so assuming the configure script is not compromised and you know how to apply the filter 
properly you are good
[3:40pm] HaraldJoerg: Safety by filtering input narrows down the possible parameters
[3:41pm] PeterThoeny: by only allowing safe characters, in this example [^a-zA-Z0-9_\- ] you are ok
[3:41pm] HaraldJoerg: For such stuff I prefer AJAX / AHAH, where the server can do validation of user input
[3:41pm] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Plugins/TreePlugin
[3:42pm] PeterThoeny: how does that differ from an ajax call?
[3:42pm] PeterThoeny: the user input filtering is done on the server too
[3:43pm] PeterThoeny: back to treeplugin:
[3:43pm] PeterThoeny: now supports additional SEARCH parameters search, scope & type
[3:45pm] PeterThoeny: there are more changes, mainly minor ones to other extensions
[3:45pm] PeterThoeny: time check: +45 min
[3:45pm] PeterThoeny: ---++ 3. Review Urgent and Not So Urgent Bugs
[3:45pm] PeterThoeny: develop.twiki.org/~twiki4/cgi-bin/view/Bugs/WebChanges
[3:45pm] PeterThoeny: http://develop.twiki.org/~twiki4/cgi-bin/view/Bugs/WebChanges
[3:46pm] PeterThoeny: maybe one:
[3:46pm] PeterThoeny: http://develop.twiki.org/~twiki4/cgi-bin/view/Bugs/Item7578
[3:47pm] PeterThoeny: Item7578: Use of uninitialized value $_[0] in Configure::UI line 138
[3:47pm] PeterThoeny: a number of people seem to be affected
[3:47pm] PeterThoeny: latest cpan cgi module behaves differently
[3:47pm] PeterThoeny: any recommended approach?
[3:48pm] HaraldJoerg: In that case, it is Perl 5.20 which caused the difference
[3:48pm] HaraldJoerg: I'd say this is usual lifecycle management for any software...
[3:49pm] PeterThoeny: but this one has big impact on existing code
[3:49pm] PeterThoeny: if i understand correctly, any cgi parameter now needs to be treated as an array of names
[3:50pm] HaraldJoerg: Ah, that's the other thing introduced by CGI 4.05 or so.
[3:50pm] PeterThoeny: with old spec you could assume string or array, and use array only as needed
[3:51pm] HaraldJoerg: That's a change which I call slightly annoying. The behaviour of CGI was "as documented" for 
years
[3:52pm] PeterThoeny: i find it very annoying
[3:52pm] PeterThoeny: twiki assumes string only in most cases
[3:52pm] HaraldJoerg: And for whatever reason, people grabbed the module from github and not from CPAN.  Even more, 
before 5.20 a perfectly working CGI.pm is part of the Perl core.
[3:53pm] HaraldJoerg: So, unless you have Perl 5.20, there's no reason at all to install your own CGI.pm
[3:53pm] PeterThoeny: ok, so let's deprioritize this one
[3:54pm] PeterThoeny: for now
[3:54pm] PeterThoeny: any other bug to discuss?
[3:55pm] PeterThoeny: ---++ 4. TWiki-6.0.1 Post-Mortem
[3:56pm] PeterThoeny: thank you HideyoImazu-san for building the production release
[3:56pm] PeterThoeny: a lot of work!
[3:56pm] HideyoImazu: np
[3:56pm] PeterThoeny: post-release is a lot of work too
[3:56pm] PeterThoeny: anything on process we can improve?
[3:57pm] PeterThoeny: i am kind of blind because i have done many builds
[3:57pm] HideyoImazu: I can be made less manual
[3:58pm] HideyoImazu: it
[3:58pm] PeterThoeny: yes, a few places with manual edits can be improved
[3:59pm] HideyoImazu: checking out only modules needed for a release rather than an entire trunk or release branch 
would make it less time consuming
[3:59pm] PeterThoeny: very good point
[3:59pm] PeterThoeny: the list of core modules is known at build time, so that should be easy
[4:00pm] PeterThoeny: what will make a BIG difference in build time
[4:00pm] PeterThoeny:  s/make/have/
[4:01pm] PeterThoeny:  s/difference/impact/
[4:01pm] PeterThoeny: time check: +61 min
[4:01pm] HideyoImazu: those are builder's interests. so the person who build next time may work on those
[4:01pm] PeterThoeny: yes
[4:01pm] PeterThoeny: for now, could you list those ideas in the building a release page?
[4:02pm] HideyoImazu: sure
[4:03pm] PeterThoeny: ---++ 5. Miscellaneous
[4:03pm] PeterThoeny: i have one topic
[4:03pm] PeterThoeny: do you have any?
[4:04pm] HaraldJoerg: no
[4:04pm] HideyoImazu: no
[4:04pm] PeterThoeny: twiki is hosted by two providers
[4:04pm] PeterThoeny: twiki.org at a colocation facility at hurricane electric
[4:05pm] PeterThoeny: develop.twiki.org at layered tech
[4:05pm] PeterThoeny: i pay for twiki.org a monthly fee
[4:05pm] PeterThoeny: develop.twiki.org is provided for free for amny years now
[4:06pm] PeterThoeny: initially by a different isp using twiki, that isp got aquired by layered tech
[4:06pm] PeterThoeny: now i got a letter that the service will be cancelled by end of january
[4:06pm] PeterThoeny: so question is where to move
[4:07pm] PeterThoeny: or to stay with them (i can ask if we get free hosting on a new box)
[4:07pm] PeterThoeny: but in either case we can't stay on current hardware
[4:07pm] PeterThoeny: too old
[4:07pm] PeterThoeny: i am concered that the single hd will die sooner or later
[4:08pm] PeterThoeny: there is a lot of configuration that needs to be done when moving the server
[4:08pm] PeterThoeny: we have twiki, trac, svn and possibly other stuff
[4:08pm] HideyoImazu: not only twiki itself but also svn too, right?
[4:08pm] PeterThoeny: i am not a sysadmin, so i can't reliably drive this effort
[4:09pm] PeterThoeny: correct
[4:09pm] PeterThoeny: trac to see diffs online
[4:09pm] PeterThoeny: svn as repository
[4:09pm] PeterThoeny: precommit enforcing bug number etc
[4:10pm] PeterThoeny: so we have roughly 3 month to ficure this out
[4:10pm] PeterThoeny: "figure"
[4:10pm] HideyoImazu: which means it's safer to start working on it NOW
[4:10pm] PeterThoeny: let me take the action item to talk to layered tech if they are willing to donate free hosting 
on a new box
[4:11pm] HideyoImazu: we have thanks giving and xmas/year end
[4:11pm] PeterThoeny: i can organize the new box/vm/whatnot
[4:11pm] PeterThoeny: wondering who can help out on installing and migrating stuff
[4:12pm] PeterThoeny: yes, xmas would be a good time to do the migration
[4:13pm] HideyoImazu: I can help you out
[4:13pm] PeterThoeny: we could consider moving to twiki.org, but i prefer not
[4:13pm] HideyoImazu: sure. at least for the time being
[4:13pm] HideyoImazu: after develop.twiki.org is migrated, we can think about twiki.org
[4:13pm] PeterThoeny: thank you
[4:14pm] PeterThoeny: on twiki.org we have the issue that it is very very slow when rsync is in progress
[4:14pm] PeterThoeny: i asked the isp to look into this
[4:14pm] PeterThoeny: he gave me some hints today
[4:14pm] PeterThoeny: i will try them out
[4:15pm] PeterThoeny: then another concern: support in an emergeny
[4:15pm] PeterThoeny: the isp is basically a one person shop hosting various websites
[4:15pm] PeterThoeny: when he sleeps he sleeps
[4:16pm] PeterThoeny: so if the server goes down at night nothing happens for a few hours
[4:16pm] PeterThoeny: nothing urgent since twiki.org is not a site hosting paying clients, but still
[4:16pm] PeterThoeny: that is all i have for today
[4:17pm] PeterThoeny: anything else?
[4:17pm] HideyoImazu: no
[4:17pm] PeterThoeny: ok, let's close the meeting
[4:18pm] PeterThoeny: thank you HideyoImazu-san & HaraldJoerg!
[4:18pm] PeterThoeny: i'll post the logs and minutes
[4:18pm] HaraldJoerg: Goodbye then!
[4:18pm] HideyoImazu: ttyl
[4:18pm] PeterThoeny: ttyl
[4:24pm]  HaraldJoerg left the chat room.
[4:31pm]  HideyoImazu left the chat room.