Subject: KampalaMeetingLog2014x05x15.txt
Date: May 15, 2014 4:34:01 PM PDT

[3:08pm]  HideyoImazu joined the chat room.
[3:08pm] HideyoImazu: Hi PeterThoeny
[3:08pm] HideyoImazu: good afternoon
[3:09pm] PeterThoeny: goooooood moooooorning HideyoImazu-san!
[3:10pm] PeterThoeny: we have unusual hot weather for this time of the year, 30-35 degrees
[3:10pm] HideyoImazu: wow
[3:10pm] PeterThoeny: i am in t-shirt at home
[3:11pm] PeterThoeny: time check: +11min
[3:11pm] PeterThoeny: shall we start? i'd like to keep today's meeting short due to workload
[3:11pm] HideyoImazu: Tokyo is short sleeve temperature. not t-shirt
[3:11pm] HideyoImazu: sure
[3:11pm] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/KampalaReleaseMeeting2014x05x15
[3:12pm] PeterThoeny: agenda:
[3:12pm] PeterThoeny: 1. Feature Requests for Kampala Release
[3:12pm] PeterThoeny: 2. Extensions
[3:12pm] PeterThoeny: 3. Review Urgent and Not So Urgent Bugs
[3:12pm] PeterThoeny: 4. Miscellaneous
[3:12pm] PeterThoeny: ---++ 1. Feature Requests for Kampala Release
[3:12pm] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/TWikiFeatureProposals
[3:12pm] PeterThoeny: i see 4 proposals to discuss
[3:13pm] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/CfgAccessTopic
[3:13pm] PeterThoeny: Site configuration to restrict access to topics of a certain name in all webs - 
by you HideyoImazu-san
[3:14pm] PeterThoeny: 7 days ago, just at the border of feedback period
[3:15pm] PeterThoeny: just re-read the proposal
[3:15pm]  HideyoImazu left the chat room. (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
[3:20pm]  HideyoImazu joined the chat room.
[3:20pm] HideyoImazu: sorry, I lost my connection
[3:20pm] HideyoImazu: but it's resumed now
[3:21pm] PeterThoeny: ok
[3:21pm] PeterThoeny: what is the last you saw?
[3:21pm] HideyoImazu: 1.1
[3:21pm] HideyoImazu: or something alike
[3:22pm] PeterThoeny: ---++ 1. Feature Requests for Kampala Release
[3:23pm] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/TWikiFeatureProposals
[3:23pm] PeterThoeny: i see 4 proposals to discuss
[3:23pm] PeterThoeny: Site configuration to restrict access to topics of a certain name in all webs - 
by you HideyoImazu-san
[3:23pm] PeterThoeny: 7 days ago, just at the border of feedback period
[3:23pm] PeterThoeny: just re-read the proposal
[3:23pm] PeterThoeny: and just now replied, please reload the topic
[3:23pm] HideyoImazu: ok
[3:25pm] PeterThoeny: so, if we go for pref settings, no need for configure setting?
[3:25pm] HideyoImazu: what do  you think about restricting simply by installing a plugin or add-on?
[3:26pm] HideyoImazu: $TWiki::cfg{Access}{Topic} can do that
[3:27pm] HideyoImazu: that's my first comment on May 10
[3:27pm] PeterThoeny: another idea: automation does not work unless the WebAutomation has an access 
restriction defined, either in topic or a higher level, such as ALLOWSITECHANGE
[3:28pm] HideyoImazu: mmm
[3:28pm] PeterThoeny: that way installing the plugin is safe
[3:29pm] PeterThoeny: i see the reason why it is easier to use configure setting
[3:30pm] PeterThoeny: just a bit concerned about complexity for users and for developers
[3:31pm] HideyoImazu: other than WebAutomation do you envision use cases of this?
[3:31pm] PeterThoeny: useful for WebStatistics, WebPreferences
[3:32pm] HideyoImazu: in terms of the amount of code needed, cfg{Access}{Topic} needs less
[3:32pm] PeterThoeny: ok
[3:32pm] PeterThoeny: what about letting user know where the setting is?
[3:33pm] PeterThoeny: e.g. if a user hits edit on WebAutomation
[3:33pm] HideyoImazu: good point
[3:34pm] HideyoImazu: pref variable or %cfg, users may be puzzled when they are denied
[3:34pm] HideyoImazu: access denied message needs to be enhanced
[3:35pm] PeterThoeny: yes
[3:35pm] PeterThoeny: well, at least for restriction by cfg setting
[3:35pm] PeterThoeny: should not be too hard
[3:35pm] HideyoImazu: actually, even now, sometimes you need to look around to find out where exactly 
the restriction is done for a page
[3:36pm] PeterThoeny: basically something like: "this topic is restricted by configure setting, contact 
your twiki administrator for questions" or the like
[3:36pm] HideyoImazu: the page content, the page metadata, or WebPreferences
[3:37pm] PeterThoeny: right now th euser can follow the path to see where it is restricted: topic pref 
or meta data, and webpreferences
[3:38pm] PeterThoeny: so, i am ok with just the configure setting as proposed (without site prefs), but 
please look into how to notify user of this special case
[3:39pm] HideyoImazu: while there is no way to refer to $cfg{...} for users
[3:39pm] PeterThoeny: not really needed, just a hint where to look is ok
[3:39pm] HideyoImazu: ok. i'll think about it and write something up
[3:40pm] PeterThoeny: e.g. where to tell the admin to look
[3:40pm] PeterThoeny: are you ok with this: only cfg setting as proposed, show message where to look 
if user hits an access restriction
[3:41pm] HideyoImazu: yes
[3:43pm] PeterThoeny: ok, so accedpted by release meeting?
[3:43pm] HideyoImazu: I suppose so
[3:43pm] PeterThoeny: ok
[3:43pm] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/PatternSkinWithDropzoneJS
[3:43pm] PeterThoeny: PatternSkin to integrate DropzoneJSSkin - by HideyoImazu-san
[3:44pm] PeterThoeny: also 7 days ago
[3:44pm] PeterThoeny: looks like accepted
[3:44pm] HideyoImazu: yes
[3:44pm] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/VarHIDEINPRINT
[3:44pm] PeterThoeny: New HIDEINPRINT variable - by PTh
[3:45pm] PeterThoeny: i just did a small no-brainer enhancement for patternskin: add a hideInPrint css 
class to hide specific content from print
[3:45pm] PeterThoeny: the HIDEINPRINT makes it easy for user to use
[3:45pm] PeterThoeny: and easy to discover via variable browser
[3:45pm] HideyoImazu: it's neat
[3:46pm] PeterThoeny: the use with div is documented in patternskin topic, but is not so easy to 
discover
[3:46pm] PeterThoeny: i just proposed today
[3:47pm] PeterThoeny: shall we get a handle?
[3:47pm] HideyoImazu: sure
[3:47pm] PeterThoeny: +1 from me
[3:47pm] HideyoImazu: +1
[3:47pm] PeterThoeny: thanks
[3:47pm] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/TWikiTimeDebug
[3:47pm] PeterThoeny: TWiki Time Debug Feature - by PTh
[3:47pm] PeterThoeny: i proposed this yesterday
[3:48pm] PeterThoeny: mainly a developer feature, also useful for site admins when installing plugins
[3:48pm] HideyoImazu: it should be useful
[3:48pm] PeterThoeny: i created this to profile a twiki of a client that has performance issues just 
for selected users
[3:49pm] PeterThoeny: any feedback?
[3:49pm] HideyoImazu: when the timer starts?
[3:49pm] PeterThoeny: at compile tome of TWiki.pm
[3:49pm] PeterThoeny: "time"
[3:50pm] HideyoImazu: what happens under mod_perl or Fast CGI?
[3:52pm] PeterThoeny: good point, not tested!
[3:52pm] PeterThoeny: note to self: investigate
[3:53pm] HideyoImazu: needless to say, I'm all for it
[3:53pm] PeterThoeny: the BEGIN of TWikipm has this:
[3:53pm] PeterThoeny:     if( $ENV{TWIKI_TIME} ) {
[3:53pm] PeterThoeny:         require Time::HiRes;
[3:53pm] PeterThoeny:         $profileStartTime = [Time::HiRes::gettimeofday()];
[3:53pm] PeterThoeny:         print STDERR "---( TWIKI PROFILE TIMER START )-----------------\n";
[3:53pm] PeterThoeny:     }
[3:54pm] PeterThoeny: so how to handle mod_perl?
[3:55pm] PeterThoeny: what is a good place to start timer when using mod_perl?
[3:55pm] HideyoImazu: in BEGIN, you would have if( $ENV{TWIKI_TIME} ) { require Time::HiRes;} only
[3:55pm] HideyoImazu: and somewhere in TWiki::new(), you would set $profileStartIme
[3:55pm] PeterThoeny: well, for standard cgi i am interested to start timer as early as possible
[3:56pm] PeterThoeny: so can be set in mod_perl as well, but then (re)set again later
[3:56pm] PeterThoeny: but where?
[3:56pm] PeterThoeny: yes, twiki::new is likely the best place
[3:57pm] PeterThoeny: although a lot of stuff happened by then (module loading etc)
[3:57pm] PeterThoeny: i'll look into it
[3:57pm] PeterThoeny: let's get a handle
[3:57pm] PeterThoeny: +1
[3:58pm] HideyoImazu: maybe it's fine as it is now
[3:58pm] HideyoImazu: maybe not
[3:58pm] PeterThoeny: well it is easy to add a conditional start timer in twiki::new
[3:58pm] PeterThoeny: if in precompiled mode
[3:58pm] HideyoImazu: under mod_perl and Fast CGI, you have multiple TWiki code instances running at 
the same time
[3:59pm] HideyoImazu: you need to differentiate those instances
[3:59pm] PeterThoeny: isn't the same under plain cgi?
[4:00pm] PeterThoeny: multiple threads or processes can run at the same time
[4:00pm] HideyoImazu: yes
[4:00pm] PeterThoeny: debug output is clobbbered in simultaneous access cases
[4:01pm] PeterThoeny: i do not worry about this at this point
[4:01pm] HideyoImazu: but under mod_perl and Fast CGI, if so configured, multiple instances are always 
running
[4:01pm] PeterThoeny: but twiki::new is called for each run, right?
[4:01pm] HideyoImazu: which instance is picked at which point in time is indeterministic
[4:02pm] PeterThoeny: time check: +62 min
[4:02pm] HideyoImazu: while with plain cgi, TWiki code runs only when a request comes
[4:02pm] PeterThoeny: we should wrap up soon
[4:02pm] HideyoImazu: what do you think about AutomationAddOn?
[4:03pm] PeterThoeny: is promising!
[4:03pm] PeterThoeny: before we go to extensions
[4:03pm] PeterThoeny: what about this proposal?
[4:03pm] PeterThoeny: what is your verdict
[4:04pm] HideyoImazu: on what?
[4:04pm] PeterThoeny: accepted by release meeting?
[4:04pm] HideyoImazu: TWikiTImeDebug?
[4:04pm] PeterThoeny: yes
[4:04pm] HideyoImazu: sure. it's accepted, I understand
[4:04pm] PeterThoeny: +1
[4:04pm] PeterThoeny: thanks!
[4:04pm] PeterThoeny: ---++ 2. Extensions
[4:05pm] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Plugins/WebChanges
[4:05pm] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/AutomationAddOn
[4:06pm] PeterThoeny: Automation add-on - by HideyoImazu-san (in codev web)
[4:06pm] PeterThoeny: it is a good extension
[4:06pm] HideyoImazu: any further thoughts on it?
[4:06pm] PeterThoeny: i have to think of additional use cases
[4:06pm] PeterThoeny: not at this time
[4:07pm] HideyoImazu: ok
[4:07pm] PeterThoeny: actually one:
[4:08pm] PeterThoeny: coiuld be useful to create snapshots of a ceratin state in regular intervals
[4:08pm] PeterThoeny: such as inventry list, status reports, etc
[4:09pm] PeterThoeny: for example, a dynamic status report overview page shows the current status 
pulled from many topics
[4:10pm] PeterThoeny: this overview page could be copied to a new topic with expanded variables once 
a week
[4:10pm] PeterThoeny: does that make sense?
[4:10pm] HideyoImazu: you can do it with AutomationAddOn
[4:10pm] PeterThoeny: not sure if this can be done with automationaddon, e.g. expand variables on 
topic creation
[4:11pm] HideyoImazu: for that, you would make a template topic using EOTC__ prefix to variables
[4:11pm] PeterThoeny: ah
[4:11pm] HideyoImazu: then you create a new topic based on that template
[4:12pm] PeterThoeny: ok
[4:12pm] PeterThoeny: next:
[4:12pm] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Plugins/DropzoneJSSkin - by HideyoImazu-san
[4:12pm] PeterThoeny: thanks for enhancing and fixing this very useful extension!
[4:13pm] HideyoImazu: i'm glad some people find it useful
[4:13pm] PeterThoeny: i sent an email to claus inviting him to get involved with the community
[4:13pm] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Plugins/MailInContrib
[4:14pm] PeterThoeny: i enhanced based on customer needs
[4:14pm] PeterThoeny: more enhancements to come
[4:14pm] PeterThoeny: have you used this?
[4:15pm] HideyoImazu: no
[4:15pm] HideyoImazu: the contrib has long been there
[4:15pm] PeterThoeny: can be useful for project management to send mail into project pages
[4:15pm] HideyoImazu: I didn't know it
[4:15pm] PeterThoeny: the contrib is very complicated to install and configure
[4:16pm] PeterThoeny: but once done, relatively easy to use
[4:16pm] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Plugins/PatternSkin
[4:16pm] PeterThoeny: i just added the hideInPrint css class
[4:17pm] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Plugins/TopMenuSkin
[4:17pm] PeterThoeny: uses now the hideInPrint class to hide the top bar
[4:17pm] HideyoImazu: cool
[4:17pm] PeterThoeny: this is all i had on extensions
[4:17pm] PeterThoeny: anything?
[4:18pm] PeterThoeny: ---++ 3. Review Urgent and Not So Urgent Bugs
[4:18pm] PeterThoeny: i recommend to skip this
[4:18pm] HideyoImazu: sure
[4:18pm] PeterThoeny: ---++ 4. Miscellaneous
[4:18pm] PeterThoeny: anything?
[4:19pm] HideyoImazu: no
[4:19pm] PeterThoeny: ok, let's close the meeting
[4:19pm] PeterThoeny: i'll post the minutes
[4:20pm] PeterThoeny: thanks HideyoImazu-san!
[4:20pm] HideyoImazu: thank you for your time, PeterThoeny!
[4:20pm] PeterThoeny: ttyl