Subject: KampalaMeetingLog2014x03x20.txt
Date: March 20, 2014 3:54:29 PM PDT

[2:48pm]  HideyoImazu joined the chat room.
[3:01pm] PeterThoeny: hi HideyoImazu-san
[3:01pm] PeterThoeny: good early morning!
[3:01pm] HideyoImazu: Hi, Peter
[3:01pm] HideyoImazu: good morning
[3:01pm] PeterThoeny: could you get up easily?
[3:01pm] HideyoImazu: yes
[3:02pm] PeterThoeny: i am a night owl and have difficulty to get up early
[3:02pm] HideyoImazu: 7 am is not so early for me
[3:02pm] HideyoImazu: I kind of know your pattern
[3:02pm] PeterThoeny: btw, next month i will be in hong kong
[3:02pm] HideyoImazu: based on check-ins you are doing
[3:02pm] PeterThoeny: no time for japan this time
[3:02pm] HideyoImazu: ok
[3:03pm] PeterThoeny: family trip, my niece is getting married
[3:03pm] PeterThoeny: weddings are big in hkg
[3:03pm] HideyoImazu: congrats!
[3:03pm] HideyoImazu: I know
[3:03pm] HideyoImazu: I have several colleagues there
[3:04pm] HideyoImazu: i've never attended a wedding ceremony there though
[3:04pm] HideyoImazu: today is a national holiday in Japan
[3:04pm] HideyoImazu: so i'm attending from home today
[3:04pm] PeterThoeny: ah
[3:05pm] HideyoImazu: vernal equinox
[3:05pm] PeterThoeny: time for photo shoot!
[3:05pm] PeterThoeny: +5 min, shall we start?
[3:05pm] HideyoImazu: sure
[3:05pm] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/KampalaReleaseMeeting2014x03x20
[3:06pm] PeterThoeny: agenda:
[3:06pm] PeterThoeny: 1. Feature Requests for Kampala Release
[3:06pm] PeterThoeny: 2. Extensions
[3:06pm] PeterThoeny: 3. Review Urgent and Not So Urgent Bugs
[3:06pm] PeterThoeny: 4. Miscellaneous
[3:06pm] PeterThoeny: i think we can have a short meeting today
[3:06pm] PeterThoeny: ---++ 1. Feature Requests for Kampala Release
[3:06pm] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/TWikiFeatureProposals
[3:07pm] PeterThoeny: we do not have new proposals to cover
[3:07pm] PeterThoeny: but i would like to mention work in progress item
[3:07pm] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/VarFORM
[3:07pm] PeterThoeny: this is FORM and EDITFORM
[3:08pm] PeterThoeny: FORM is done, checked in
[3:08pm] PeterThoeny: i am working on EDITFORM
[3:08pm] PeterThoeny: both will make it easier to create twiki forms based apps
[3:08pm] PeterThoeny: that have a nicer guy than the default one in twiki
[3:09pm] PeterThoeny: for example with tab interface like at http://develop.twiki.org/~twiki4/cgi-bin/view/Bugs/Item7461
[3:09pm] PeterThoeny: one tab for form view, one for form edit
[3:09pm] HideyoImazu: taking a look
[3:09pm] PeterThoeny: so far i only intend to create the FORM and EDITFORM for app developers
[3:10pm] PeterThoeny: twiki uses view and edit form internally
[3:10pm] PeterThoeny: do you think we should change the twiki internal form handling to use the new 
FORM and EDITFORM variables?
[3:11pm] HideyoImazu: from what?
[3:12pm] HideyoImazu: ah
[3:12pm] PeterThoeny: well, twiki generates the form for view and edit based on some template logic
[3:13pm] PeterThoeny: wondering if we should change that to the new variables
[3:13pm] HideyoImazu: using %META{...}% on a view template
[3:14pm] HideyoImazu: what variable is used on an edit template now for a form? I don't remember
[3:15pm] PeterThoeny: i also don't remember, i only remember that it is somewhat convoluted
[3:15pm] PeterThoeny: not the simple %VARNAME{ foo="bar" }% syntax
[3:16pm] HideyoImazu: what's the main difference between EDITFORM and EDITFORMFIELD ?
[3:16pm] PeterThoeny: EDITFORM builds a complete form, EDITFORMFIELD just one field
[3:17pm] HideyoImazu: ah
[3:17pm] PeterThoeny: so for special layout you can use the latter, in most cases the former is good
[3:18pm] PeterThoeny: i think i will keep current form handling in core for now
[3:18pm] PeterThoeny: anything else on features?
[3:19pm] HideyoImazu: what's the main difference b/w FORM and FORMFIELD ?
[3:19pm] HideyoImazu: ah
[3:19pm] PeterThoeny: same
[3:19pm] HideyoImazu: FORM is for an entire form
[3:20pm] PeterThoeny: i i mean same distinction as before
[3:20pm] PeterThoeny: and same use cases as mentioned before
[3:20pm] HideyoImazu: FORM and EDITFORM sound good
[3:21pm] PeterThoeny: yes, useful
[3:21pm] HideyoImazu: I'd like to contemplate a bit
[3:21pm] PeterThoeny: i am currently working on a twiki based crm app and use FORMFIELD and EDITFORMFIELD
[3:21pm] PeterThoeny: would be easier with FORM and EDITFORM
[3:22pm] HideyoImazu: I understand
[3:22pm] HideyoImazu: I wrote several applications dealing with TWiki forms using %FORMFIELD
[3:23pm] HideyoImazu: it's cumbersome
[3:23pm] PeterThoeny: yes
[3:23pm] PeterThoeny: the EDITFORMFIELD introduced in last release helps a bit
[3:23pm] HideyoImazu: I played around with the drag and drop attachments feature
[3:24pm] HideyoImazu: changing subject ...
[3:24pm] PeterThoeny: ok
[3:24pm] HideyoImazu: it's a nice try but there is a room for improvement
[3:25pm] HideyoImazu: both with UI design and feature
[3:25pm] HideyoImazu: I don't like attachments are uploaded immediately after dropped
[3:26pm] HideyoImazu: i'm more conformable dropping is just like selecting a file
[3:26pm] PeterThoeny: neither do i
[3:26pm] PeterThoeny: better to upload immediately to holding area, then do the attach action when 
hitting the attach button
[3:27pm] PeterThoeny: or like you say, just hold name, then upload all when attach is selected
[3:27pm] PeterThoeny: i think better upload immediately to holding area
[3:28pm] PeterThoeny: so if user cancels or browses away the attachments in holding area are deleted
[3:28pm] PeterThoeny: the ui also needs some work
[3:28pm] PeterThoeny: when i find time i'll work on it
[3:29pm] HideyoImazu: what if a new version of an existing attachment is dropped and then cancelled?
[3:29pm] PeterThoeny: please provide feedback at http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/DragAndDropAttach
[3:29pm] HideyoImazu: sure
[3:29pm] HideyoImazu: i'll put my feedback
[3:30pm] PeterThoeny: if new version is dropped i think it also goes to holding area, if attach button 
is not pushed, it does not replace the existing attachment
[3:30pm] PeterThoeny: that is the proper behavior i think
[3:30pm] HideyoImazu: let me confirm.
[3:31pm] HideyoImazu: you think that a new attachment dropped should be uploaded immediately
[3:31pm] HideyoImazu: while an existing attachment dropped should go to the hold area?
[3:32pm] PeterThoeny: no
[3:33pm] PeterThoeny: from user perspective, it is like you mentioned: d&d is only filing a list to 
upload, then when you press attach it does the attach
[3:33pm] PeterThoeny: behind the scene i think this should happen:
[3:33pm] PeterThoeny: whenever a file is dropped, it is uploaded immediately to a temp area, e.g. not 
attached to topic
[3:34pm] HideyoImazu: ok
[3:34pm] PeterThoeny: once user presses the attach button, the dropped files in the temp area are moved 
to the attachment area of the topic
[3:34pm] HideyoImazu: that's nice
[3:35pm] PeterThoeny: so user perceives the attach on button press, but behind the scene work is done 
already ahead of time
[3:35pm] PeterThoeny: i think that is the optimal somution
[3:35pm] PeterThoeny: "solution"
[3:35pm] HideyoImazu: tend to agree but a bit tricky to implement
[3:35pm] PeterThoeny: yes
[3:36pm] HideyoImazu: maybe you need to disable the attach button while dropped files are being uploaded 
behind the scene?
[3:36pm] PeterThoeny: possibly, i am not sure
[3:37pm] PeterThoeny: anything else on d&d
[3:37pm] PeterThoeny: ?
[3:38pm] HideyoImazu: not now
[3:38pm] HideyoImazu: i'm writing up my feedback
[3:38pm] PeterThoeny: ok
[3:38pm] PeterThoeny: ---++ 2. Extensions
[3:38pm] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Plugins/WebChanges
[3:38pm] PeterThoeny: we have a new plugin:
[3:38pm] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Plugins/KnowdLoginPlugin
[3:39pm] HideyoImazu: you've been working on it a lot lately
[3:39pm] PeterThoeny: this knows is a cool technology
[3:39pm] PeterThoeny: "knowd" - darn autocorrect
[3:39pm] PeterThoeny: yes, was more work than expected
[3:40pm] PeterThoeny: the twiki login/user mapping/password management api is more complex than needed 
i think
[3:40pm] PeterThoeny: i think it could be done much cleaner
[3:40pm] PeterThoeny: but it is hard to define a good api in the first place
[3:41pm] PeterThoeny: and even harder to change an existing convoluted api
[3:42pm] HideyoImazu: i will be affected ... using my own handler
[3:42pm] PeterThoeny: part of the complication is not api related, it's the needed functionality to 
register devices you trust
[3:42pm] HideyoImazu: it shouldn't be a big deal though
[3:42pm] PeterThoeny: how will you be affected?
[3:43pm] PeterThoeny: ah, if we change the user management api?
[3:43pm] HideyoImazu: yes
[3:43pm] PeterThoeny: this is not on my radar screen
[3:43pm] PeterThoeny: anytime soon
[3:44pm] PeterThoeny: btw, i use now jquery more and more for gui
[3:44pm] PeterThoeny: really cool
[3:44pm] PeterThoeny: see for example:
[3:44pm] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Plugins/KnowdLoginPlugin#Device_Management
[3:46pm] PeterThoeny: the "update" and "remove" buttons are only shown when you hover on the table row
[3:46pm] PeterThoeny: this removes clutter, and still provides needed functionality
[3:47pm] PeterThoeny: also, the text field changes to an input field on hover
[3:47pm] PeterThoeny: all done with a few lines of jquery
[3:47pm] PeterThoeny: this is all i had on extensions
[3:47pm] PeterThoeny: anything else?
[3:47pm] HideyoImazu: looks good
[3:48pm] PeterThoeny: ---++ 3. Review Urgent and Not So Urgent Bugs
[3:48pm] PeterThoeny: http://develop.twiki.org/~twiki4/cgi-bin/view/Bugs/WebChanges
[3:48pm] PeterThoeny: nothing i want to cover
[3:49pm] PeterThoeny: actually, on extensions, we have one more, work in progress:
[3:49pm] PeterThoeny: EmbedExcelPlugin by timothe
[3:49pm] PeterThoeny: he did some checkin
[3:50pm] PeterThoeny: i do no have any bus to discuss
[3:50pm] PeterThoeny: do you?
[3:50pm] PeterThoeny: bugs"
[3:50pm] HideyoImazu: me either
[3:50pm] PeterThoeny: ---++ 4. Miscellaneous
[3:50pm] PeterThoeny: anything?
[3:50pm] HideyoImazu: no
[3:50pm] PeterThoeny: neither me
[3:50pm] PeterThoeny: let's close the meeting
[3:51pm] PeterThoeny: thank you HideyoImazu-san!
[3:51pm] PeterThoeny: and enjoy your free day!
[3:51pm] HideyoImazu: thanks, PeterThoeny
[3:51pm] PeterThoeny: ttyl
[3:51pm] HideyoImazu: happy hacking! ttyl