Subject: TWiki Kampala Release meeting log 2014-02-20
Date: February 20, 2014 4:21:45 PM PST

[3:04pm] PeterThoeny: hi HaraldJoerg, HideyoImazu-san
[3:04pm] HideyoImazu: Hi timothy, PeterThoeny
[3:04pm] PeterThoeny: sorry for the delay!
[3:04pm] HaraldJoerg: Hello!
[3:05pm] timothe: We bill by the minue.
[3:05pm] HideyoImazu: hi HaraldJoerg
[3:05pm] PeterThoeny: hi timothe
[3:06pm] timothe: Hi everyone.
[3:07pm] PeterThoeny: i am just back from a ski trip
[3:07pm] PeterThoeny: and trying to catch up
[3:08pm] timothe: So that means that things have been going down hill for you.
[3:08pm] PeterThoeny: exactly 
[3:08pm] PeterThoeny: steep down hill
[3:09pm] PeterThoeny: i am catching up with a few clients
[3:09pm] PeterThoeny: one is to build a new website using twiki as the authoring tool
[3:09pm] PeterThoeny: this is done with the PublishWebPlugin
[3:10pm] PeterThoeny: sneak preview: http://www.otopy.com/staging/index.html
[3:10pm] PeterThoeny: will be rolled out today
[3:10pm] PeterThoeny: time check: +10 min
[3:10pm] PeterThoeny: shall we start?
[3:11pm] timothe: yes
[3:11pm] PeterThoeny: agenda at http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/KampalaReleaseMeeting2014x02x20
[3:11pm] PeterThoeny: 1. Feature Requests for Kampala Release
[3:11pm] PeterThoeny: 2. Extensions
[3:11pm] PeterThoeny: 3. Review Urgent and Not So Urgent Bugs
[3:11pm] PeterThoeny: 4. Miscellaneous
[3:11pm] PeterThoeny: ok?
[3:12pm] PeterThoeny: ---++ 1. Feature Requests for Kampala Release
[3:12pm] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/TWikiFeatureProposals
[3:12pm] PeterThoeny: i do not see any new proposals ready to discuss
[3:13pm] timothe: Did anyone look at drag & drop attach?  I'm not planning on putting more work into it; 
it works for me.
[3:13pm] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/DragAndDropAttach
[3:13pm] PeterThoeny: thank you timothe for working on this!
[3:14pm] PeterThoeny: i briefly tried it out
[3:14pm] timothe: I mean the code I checked into SVN,
[3:14pm] PeterThoeny: i tried in svn trunk checkout
[3:14pm] PeterThoeny: it is functional
[3:14pm] PeterThoeny: the ui needs some cleanup
[3:14pm] timothe: I know, not pretty.
[3:14pm] HideyoImazu: sorry for a basic question, but is it using flash?
[3:15pm] timothe: no, HTML5
[3:15pm] HideyoImazu: cool
[3:15pm] timothe: it adapts to your browser.
[3:15pm] PeterThoeny: the feature is very cool
[3:15pm] HideyoImazu: i'm going to try it out
[3:15pm] timothe: you get the old with old browsers, new with new.
[3:15pm] timothe: Peter, if you want to help improve the graphics, it would be nice.
[3:15pm] PeterThoeny: a few things i find confusing
[3:16pm] PeterThoeny: such as why offer file upload button and drag&drop on same screen?
[3:17pm] timothe: Because some people can't do drag and drop.  For example, mobile phones.  And some 
people (with disabilities) prefer to navigate thru folders.  Note that this browse control allows 
multi-file select.
[3:17pm] PeterThoeny: such as: the comments and properties are "below the fold", and d&d uploads directly 
in one go, so not clear that the comments and properties are taken into account
[3:17pm] timothe: and more screens means more confusion.
[3:17pm] timothe: That's the same as the old multi-file attach.  Just like it, any properties apply to 
ALL the files uploaded.  That could be commented on the screen.
[3:18pm] PeterThoeny: so for comments and attributes it might be better to show them above the d&d area
[3:18pm] timothe: it's a template, feel free to move and see how it looks.
[3:18pm] PeterThoeny: or better yet, do the upload to a temp space, and user needs to confirm upload, 
at which point the upload is committed
[3:18pm] timothe: it is a bit tricky because of the multiple versions that are dynamically selected.
[3:19pm] timothe: No, I'm not interested in making it more complicated.
[3:19pm] timothe: And the user model that I have is like on the desktop.  If you choose drag and drop
[3:19pm] PeterThoeny: with the old spec i am not happy that the attach new file, update existing file, 
and change properties of existing file are all one and the same screen
[3:20pm] PeterThoeny: so this issue could be solved at the same time here
[3:20pm] timothe: then the action happens when you drop.  If you don't want that, then use the browse 
control  You have to click a button to make
[3:20pm] timothe: those selections move.
[3:20pm] timothe: Again, I didn't try to solve all attach issues. 
[3:20pm] timothe: this doesn't make them any worse.
[3:21pm] timothe: And the other issues should be some other feature...
[3:21pm] timothe: Things like moving stuff on the screen can be slipped in.
[3:21pm] PeterThoeny: another issue:  when you d&d a banned file it just says "failed" and user has no idea 
why
[3:22pm] timothe: This had been hanging around for years, though I ran a private version here.
[3:22pm] PeterThoeny: also, i recommend to remove the "audio clues" checkbox to reduce the clutter
[3:23pm] PeterThoeny: also, the help text is too wordy, maybe batter to hide in a twisty
[3:23pm] timothe: If you have feedback, how about putting in on the wiki.  Audio feedback is for one of my
users, who is blind.  Drag and drop is hard if you can't see where you're dropping.
[3:24pm] PeterThoeny: in this case it should be a preferences setting
[3:24pm] timothe: Help in a twisty is fine.  Please put your list on the wiki & we'll sort thru.  Anyone
else?
[3:24pm] PeterThoeny: so users who need it have it on all the time and do not need to find the checkbox
[3:24pm] timothe: (I don't want to take over this meeting with one item.)
[3:24pm] PeterThoeny: good point
[3:25pm] PeterThoeny: any other feature request we should mention here?
[3:26pm] PeterThoeny: ---++ 2. Extensions
[3:26pm] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Plugins/WebChanges
[3:26pm] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Plugins/WysiwygPlugin
[3:27pm] PeterThoeny: thanks HideyoImazu-san for fixing bug
[3:27pm] HideyoImazu: my pleasure
[3:27pm] timothe: Peter's change to ExcelImportExport caused me to do something different.
[3:27pm] timothe: Should have something in SVN in the next few daze.
[3:28pm] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Plugins/ExcelImportExportPlugin
[3:28pm] PeterThoeny: small fixes, partly contributed by TWiki:Main.AnthonyRizzo
[3:28pm] timothe: Short form: spreadsheet is rendered in wiki page as html.  Not a TML object, no manual 
steps.  It's fast, and it's magical.
[3:28pm] timothe: (It's a new plugin: EmbedExcelPlugin)
[3:29pm] PeterThoeny: i was just going to ask if enhancement or new plugin
[3:29pm] PeterThoeny: thanks, looking forward to it!
[3:29pm] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Plugins/FileUploadPlugin
[3:30pm] timothe: Just so you don't expect photo-quality graphics 
[3:30pm] PeterThoeny: also small cosmetic fixes
[3:30pm] PeterThoeny: i think that is all on plugins
[3:30pm] PeterThoeny: did we miss something?
[3:31pm] timothe: Well, there is one
[3:31pm] timothe: EmptyPlugin.
[3:31pm] timothe: It's behind the times.
[3:31pm] PeterThoeny: ah, if i get the permission from otopy i will create a new add-on for image rotation 
(i did this for their website)
[3:32pm] timothe: It doesn't encourage people to do lazy loads for example.
[3:32pm] timothe: I'm tempted to update it with some of the magic I've added to make that easy.
[3:32pm] PeterThoeny: yes, good point
[3:33pm] PeterThoeny: i have seen your magic
[3:33pm] timothe: Does anyone care? The risk is that it might look more complicated - though it isn't.
[3:33pm] PeterThoeny: it is functional and useful, but i am afraid it is too complex for new programmers
[3:33pm] PeterThoeny: so i think better to keep it simple
[3:34pm] PeterThoeny: the lazy loading can be done in a more conventional way that is easier to understand
[3:35pm] timothe: It's not complex.  You add handlers to an array and just write your routines in 'core'.  
No duplicates in the main code, no confusion.  If you want lazy load, it's the way to go.  If not, ...
[3:35pm] PeterThoeny: i am referring to the autoload thing
[3:35pm] timothe: (If the code isn't a handler - the usual case, like a registered tag, you just register 
it in the usual place, and write the routine in Core.
[3:36pm] PeterThoeny: done recently to the watchlistplugin
[3:36pm] timothe: Autoload is magic - but you don't have to understand it to use it.  It's just a formula.
[3:36pm] PeterThoeny: a hello world plugin needs to be educatonal
[3:37pm] PeterThoeny: if the handlers are hidden in autoload there is no way to describe each callback
[3:37pm] timothe: Yes, but teaching people to write inefficient plugins got us to where we are today - 
few are well done.  People do what you show, not what you say. 
[3:37pm] timothe: You describe each callback in the Core module.
[3:38pm] PeterThoeny: so, i am in favor to add lazy loading to emptyplugin, but not with autoload
[3:38pm] timothe: For the handlers, you say 'add the name to the array in the main module'.  That's it.
[3:38pm] timothe: OK, I give up.
[3:39pm] PeterThoeny: what do others think? HideyoImazu-san, HaraldJoerg?
[3:39pm] HideyoImazu: I wonder what's the benefit of autoload?
[3:40pm] HideyoImazu: rather than explicitly "require ..."?
[3:40pm] timothe: The benefit is that you don't have to write each routine twice.  Once in the main plugin,
where it checks to see what is needed, and then the real code in the lodable module.
[3:40pm] PeterThoeny: benefit is to save lines of code
[3:41pm] PeterThoeny: at the expense of clarity imho
[3:42pm] PeterThoeny: why is my ff using so much memory? now at 9.7gb virtual memory
[3:42pm] timothe: For the programmer, autoload is easier.  Write the code once.  In one place.  The loadable
place.  Not so much lines of code (it helps), but programmer time and maintenance.  It is not clearer to 
have code in two places, where one is doing a mechanical process that even a linking loader would do.
[3:42pm] timothe: I suppose it's not autoloading.
[3:43pm] HideyoImazu: which plugin is doing autoload?
[3:44pm] timothe: I first did it in watchlist (which is especially ugly because of how watchlist was
designed).
[3:44pm] timothe: It's also in EmbedExcel
[3:44pm] HideyoImazu: ok. i'll take a look.
[3:44pm] PeterThoeny: HideyoImazu-san see latest WatchlistPlugin for autoload
[3:45pm] timothe: and the trash manager
[3:45pm] timothe: watchlist is the ugly one.
[3:45pm] timothe: onward?
[3:46pm] PeterThoeny: it's all relative
[3:46pm] timothe: I mean from the point of view of the complexity.
[3:46pm] timothe: It's less ugly with autoload, but not as clean as the others.
[3:47pm] PeterThoeny: ---++ 3. Review Urgent and Not So Urgent Bugs
[3:47pm] timothe: On to bug?  I filed (and fixed) a few - they need someone to merge them to the branches
[3:47pm] PeterThoeny: http://develop.twiki.org/~twiki4/cgi-bin/view/Bugs/ReleaseBlocker
[3:47pm] PeterThoeny: thanks timothe for fixing bugs
[3:47pm] PeterThoeny: it would help if you check them in also to the branch
[3:48pm] timothe: Sorry ,checking them into svn head is my limit....
[3:48pm] PeterThoeny: if you don't, please mark them as "mayor" so that the release reporting can be done
accurately
[3:49pm] timothe: What's 'mayor'?
[3:49pm] PeterThoeny: sorry, typo
[3:49pm] PeterThoeny: should read major
[3:49pm] PeterThoeny: http://develop.twiki.org/~twiki4/cgi-bin/view/Bugs/TargetRelease
[3:50pm] PeterThoeny: items that are done in trunk and branch
[3:50pm] PeterThoeny: are marked as "patch"
[3:50pm] timothe: OK, that I can do.
[3:50pm] PeterThoeny: stuff that is only done in trunk should be marked major or minor
[3:51pm] PeterThoeny: that way the release notes can be done accurately
[3:51pm] timothe: I thought that was a release meeting decision
[3:51pm] timothe: or at least, above my pay grade.
[3:51pm] PeterThoeny: looking at changes for last 14 days, anything we should discuss?
[3:51pm] PeterThoeny: develop.twiki.org/~twiki4/cgi-bin/view/Bugs/WebChanges
[3:52pm] PeterThoeny: http://develop.twiki.org/~twiki4/cgi-bin/view/Bugs/WebChanges
[3:53pm] timothe: Except for D&D, I think mine are done (on my end)
[3:53pm] PeterThoeny: on trunk vs branch: bug fixes should be done in both, minor features can be done 
in both, major features only in trunk
[3:54pm] timothe: It's just a process question.  Do you want us to make the call, or do you want to 
classify the changes here?
[3:54pm] timothe: I'm perfectly willing to check the box(es)
[3:55pm] PeterThoeny: make the call
[3:55pm] PeterThoeny: use common sense to determine if something is a bug or a feature
[3:55pm] timothe: Done.  5 min.  Anything else?
[3:55pm] PeterThoeny: we will not always agree but that is ok
[3:55pm] PeterThoeny: i have nothing else on bugs
[3:56pm] PeterThoeny: thanks again timothe for nailing a few bugs!
[3:56pm] HideyoImazu: timothe, checking a bug fix into the current release branch is only a matter of
"svc merge ..." and then "svc ci" again at the release branch directory
[3:56pm] timothe: you're welcome.  I hit them while doing other stuff, so find-em/fix-em ruled.
[3:57pm] timothe: I know the mechanics.  It means keeping the release branches on my machine (I don't).  
It means testing the change on the release.  It's really more work for someone who doesn't do much on TWiki.
[3:58pm] timothe: I have very limited time, so try to focus on what I do best.
[3:58pm] PeterThoeny: ---++ 4. Miscellaneous
[3:58pm] PeterThoeny: anything?
[3:59pm] PeterThoeny: wow, in the mean time my ff is at 13.7gb
[4:00pm] timothe: Had a chance to look at the multi-disk trash manager issues?  I thought you might easily 
do a select dropdown for each disk...
[4:00pm] HideyoImazu: not yet
[4:00pm] timothe: only when more than one exists, of course.
[4:01pm] timothe: OK, no rush.  (But you can see autoload there 
[4:01pm] HideyoImazu: sure
[4:02pm] PeterThoeny: timothe:  the twiki plugin handler checks each callback on each plugin if it exists
[4:02pm] timothe: Peter, yes, it does.  And the autoload code has you populate an array with the names of
those you want enabled.
[4:03pm] PeterThoeny: does that mean that the autoload will create each and every callback handler due to the
test?
[4:03pm] PeterThoeny: could you please check?
[4:03pm] timothe: I may move that array to the Core modules so even taht doesn't need an edit to the main
plugin... just thought of that.
[4:03pm] timothe: no it doesn't 
[4:03pm] timothe: it creates the handler if the routine exists.
[4:03pm] PeterThoeny: ok, good
[4:04pm] timothe: the routine only exists at that time if it's been registered.  (I did try to do it right.)
[4:04pm] PeterThoeny: time check: +64 min
[4:04pm] PeterThoeny: shall we close the meeting?
[4:06pm] timothe: Silence means assent.  Thanks.  Sorry I typed so much...
[4:07pm] PeterThoeny: ok, let's close the meeting
[4:07pm] PeterThoeny: i'll post the logs
[4:07pm] PeterThoeny: and minutes
[4:07pm] PeterThoeny: thanks all!
[4:07pm] HideyoImazu: ttyl
[4:08pm]  timothe left the chat room. (Read error: Connection reset by peer)