Subject: KampalaMeetingLog2014x02x06.txt Date: February 7, 2014 11:28:46 AM PST [2:56pm] timothe joined the chat room. [2:57pm] HideyoImazu joined the chat room. [3:00pm] HaraldJoerg joined the chat room. [3:01pm] PeterThoeny: hi timothe, HideyoImazu-san, HaraldJoerg! [3:01pm] timothe: Good , [3:01pm] PeterThoeny: good morning & good afternoon & good evening [3:01pm] PeterThoeny: bright minds think alike [3:02pm] HideyoImazu: Hi, PeterThoeny, timothe [3:02pm] HaraldJoerg: 00:00 doesn't really go for evening or morning, or does it? [3:02pm] timothe: Seems like mourning to me. [3:03pm] PeterThoeny: haha, nice word play [3:03pm] HaraldJoerg: [3:04pm] PeterThoeny: i am getting more interested in photography [3:04pm] HideyoImazu: even more? [3:05pm] PeterThoeny: last night it was raining for the first time after a long time, so i went to stanford u campus [3:05pm] PeterThoeny: for some night shots in rain [3:05pm] PeterThoeny: still processing the photos into hdr [3:05pm] timothe: Here you can have lots of snow pictures.  Are we ready to start? [3:06pm] PeterThoeny: +5 min, let's start [3:06pm] HaraldJoerg: Yeahwn... [3:06pm] PeterThoeny: minutes topic at http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/KampalaReleaseMeeting2014x02x06 [3:06pm] HideyoImazu: it really sounds like you are going deeper with photo, Peter [3:06pm] PeterThoeny: yes, i love it [3:06pm] PeterThoeny: 1. Feature Requests for Kampala Release [3:06pm] PeterThoeny: 2. Extensions [3:06pm] PeterThoeny: 3. Review Urgent and Not So Urgent Bugs [3:06pm] PeterThoeny: 4. Miscellaneous [3:07pm] PeterThoeny: ---++ 1. Feature Requests for Kampala Release [3:07pm] PeterThoeny: it looks like we have three proposals to discuss [3:08pm] PeterThoeny: are under investigation [3:08pm] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/ParameterizedLinkSimpler by hideyo-san [3:08pm] PeterThoeny: this is actually over 7 days so is automatically acccepted [3:09pm] PeterThoeny: good proposal, i wished i had this in many apps i created [3:09pm] HideyoImazu: same here [3:09pm] timothe: Does this include #tag as well? [3:09pm] HideyoImazu: that's the plan [3:10pm] timothe: Sounds good. [3:10pm] HideyoImazu: since you can do [topic#tag] even now [3:11pm] HaraldJoerg: Ooops... TWiki detected an internal error - please check your TWiki logs and webserver logs for more information.  Day '84' out of range 1..30 [3:11pm] timothe: I just filed a bug on that one. [3:11pm] HaraldJoerg: On http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/TWikiFeatureProposals, when sorting the endless list for the "Committed" column [3:12pm] PeterThoeny: oh! [3:12pm] PeterThoeny: next one: [3:12pm] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/NewTopicLinkLeadingToTemplateOptions by HideyoImazu-san [3:12pm] timothe: Item 7429 against tableplugin [3:13pm] PeterThoeny: thanks tie! [3:13pm] PeterThoeny: that should have been timothe [3:13pm] PeterThoeny: my keyboard freezes sometimes [3:14pm] PeterThoeny: the template select option is good [3:14pm] HideyoImazu: I agree to Peter's comment [3:14pm] PeterThoeny: any additional input HideyoImazu-san? [3:14pm] HideyoImazu: not really. things I thought so far are on the topic [3:15pm] PeterThoeny: the proposal does not have much details [3:15pm] timothe: Let's see a prototype; that's the best way to sort out UI issues.  Some version will be OK... [3:15pm] HideyoImazu: incidentally, both proposals are based on my users' suggestions [3:15pm] PeterThoeny: so is there a preferences setting to enable/disable? [3:16pm] HideyoImazu: yes, there will a preferences variable controlling that aspect [3:16pm] HideyoImazu: the current behaviour is provided by default [3:17pm] timothe: You don't need a separate preference; preference can be a template name to use when clicking on undef links on a page.  None is current, Ask = ask user. [3:17pm] PeterThoeny: on thumbnail, it is good to have related content at the same place, but we can't add a thumbnail to the template topic itself [3:18pm] PeterThoeny: timothe: the default template can already be set per web with a WebTopicEditTemplate [3:18pm] HideyoImazu: timothe, the issue here is to show options of template topics [3:19pm] PeterThoeny: so i think a pref setting is needed to enable/disable the extra step [3:19pm] HideyoImazu: PeterThoeny, that's right [3:19pm] PeterThoeny: on thumbnail, for FooBarTemplate, the thumbnail could be in FooBarTemplateThumbnail topic [3:20pm] HideyoImazu: as an attachment? [3:20pm] PeterThoeny: in the search to list the templates you can test if the thumbnail topic exists [3:20pm] PeterThoeny: yes [3:20pm] timothe: I understand the issue to be that clicking on a new link, you don't get a choice.  Seems to me that the topic containing the new link can specify the default.  One choice is 'Use FooTemplate'. Another is 'ask user'.  But I'd much rather see a prototype, as I say, that's the best way to work out UI issues. [3:21pm] HideyoImazu: ok [3:22pm] HideyoImazu: I'll put details on the proposal topic [3:22pm] PeterThoeny: i disagree, the point of the pref setting flag is to be able to avoid the extra step [3:22pm] HideyoImazu: when I go further [3:23pm] PeterThoeny: on thumbnail list, it could be similar to the current UserList [3:23pm] timothe: There's a problem worth solving here.  Let's see a worked-out proposal or prototype so we are all on the same page.  I think we're probably in violent agreement (almost). [3:24pm] HideyoImazu: regarding template thumbnail, TWiki.WebTopicViewTemplate will have to be enhanced [3:24pm] PeterThoeny: anything else on this feature proposal? [3:25pm] HideyoImazu: not quite [3:25pm] HideyoImazu: the page showing topic template option [3:25pm] PeterThoeny: currently it is a picklist [3:26pm] PeterThoeny: it is more visual if done similar to UserList [3:26pm] PeterThoeny: idea: the thumbnail could be optional based on a new plugin [3:27pm] PeterThoeny: if present, the plugin would render the template pages into png format & cache, then use that in the template thumbnail list [3:27pm] timothe: Time limited.  This isn't ready for approval; let's move discussion to the proposal. [3:27pm] HideyoImazu: maybe, we should think about thumbnail separately [3:28pm] PeterThoeny: yes, 2 step implementation [3:28pm] PeterThoeny: next: [3:28pm] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/TopicPreferenceForQuietSaves by timothe [3:28pm] PeterThoeny: technically, the clock for acceptance did not start [3:28pm] PeterThoeny: make sure to add a committer and date [3:29pm] timothe: At this point I suspect this is a bug in that the previous feature disappeared when WYSIWYG appeared. [3:29pm] PeterThoeny: well, different reason [3:30pm] PeterThoeny: the DONTNOTIFYCHECKBOX was there initially when twiki had a checkbox for quiet save in raw, as well as wysiwyg mode [3:30pm] PeterThoeny: that was changed at some time to a separate quiet button [3:30pm] PeterThoeny: so the DONTNOTIFYCHECKBOX is of no use [3:30pm] timothe: Whatever.  DONTNOTIFYCHECKBOX doesn't appear in either mode now.  It needs to come back.  I think it's a bug, not a feature. [3:30pm] PeterThoeny: name is also no longer correct [3:31pm] PeterThoeny: bug or forgotten defeature, it does not matter [3:31pm] timothe: If we can blame who did the deed, they can be encouraged to fix it (If still here.) [3:31pm] PeterThoeny: i agree that the feature is needed [3:31pm] timothe: If it's a bug, it doesn't need a feature proposal.  Just needs to be fixed. [3:32pm] PeterThoeny: yes, we are in agreement that this needs to be done [3:32pm] PeterThoeny: i do not care if this is called bug or feature [3:33pm] HideyoImazu: agreed, PeterThoeny [3:33pm] timothe: I'll refile as a bug. [3:33pm] timothe: No action on the feature proposal. [3:33pm] PeterThoeny: worth a few more min discussion: [3:33pm] HaraldJoerg: Would this affect the RSS feed as well? We're all using RSS, almost no one uses mail notifications [3:33pm] PeterThoeny: what about reverting back to the checkbox instead of quiet save button? [3:34pm] PeterThoeny: this would simplify the ui, "don't make me think" of what button to press [3:34pm] PeterThoeny: and makes it easier to implement [3:34pm] HaraldJoerg: I second this one: "Quiet save" is not helpful [3:34pm] HaraldJoerg: People ask "does it beep when I just save?" [3:35pm] PeterThoeny: the default is to notify users, so the checkbox is an extra step, which is good [3:35pm] PeterThoeny: good point HaraldJoerg [3:35pm] timothe: Yes, your mail beeps.  Bug I'm OK with the checkbox.  The missing preference changes the default. [3:35pm] timothe: (But) [3:36pm] PeterThoeny: a "do not notify users of change" is more descriptive than "quiet save" [3:36pm] PeterThoeny: i mean as a checkbox [3:36pm] timothe: We agree.  Revert to checkbox is good. [3:36pm] HideyoImazu: agreed [3:37pm] PeterThoeny: decided, good [3:37pm] PeterThoeny: timothe: small detail, instead of a verbose [3:38pm] PeterThoeny:  * Set DONTNOTIFYCHECKBOX = checked="checked" [3:38pm] PeterThoeny: i think better to use 0 or 1 [3:38pm] PeterThoeny: or on [3:38pm] PeterThoeny: and do IF conditional in skin [3:38pm] PeterThoeny: any other proposal to discuss? [3:39pm] PeterThoeny: time check: +39 min [3:39pm] timothe: Not a new one, but FYI, I checked in some changes to Watchlist plugin that embody the spirit of past discussion on Watch Web and Watch New, including a bunch of bugfixes. [3:40pm] timothe: They work for me. [3:40pm] timothe: See Item 7411. [3:40pm] PeterThoeny: ---++ 2. Extensions [3:40pm] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Plugins/WatchlistPlugin [3:41pm] PeterThoeny: thank you timothe for working on this!! [3:41pm] PeterThoeny: i did a svn up and briefly looked at it before the meeting [3:41pm] timothe: Needed it for myself.  Try pseudo-installing and see what you think. [3:42pm] PeterThoeny: the updated "watched topics" tab looks good overall [3:43pm] PeterThoeny: a few minor ui should be fixed [3:43pm] PeterThoeny: i'll do that [3:43pm] PeterThoeny: one question for HideyoImazu-san [3:43pm] timothe: I couldn't get the column headers into a THEAD, not sure why. [3:44pm] PeterThoeny: the plugin now lists all webs in the "watched topics" tab, needed by new functionality [3:44pm] PeterThoeny: this is not practical if you have 1000 webs [3:44pm] HideyoImazu: yes [3:45pm] PeterThoeny: not sure what the best ui  is to address this case [3:45pm] timothe: A while ago we discussed a concept of 'the webs you're interested in'; that's really the list that should be used. [3:45pm] PeterThoeny: that is an good idea [3:46pm] PeterThoeny: in addition to the "webs i follow" other webs where i already watch topics should be listed as well [3:47pm] PeterThoeny: another ui issue is in normal topic view [3:47pm] timothe: It came up in one of these meetings, so there should be an exchange between Hideyo-san and me - also on a feature proposal.  Yes, the way the code works is that everything you watch is listed, then whatever left-over webs are tacked on at the end.  Just a question of which list to follow for part 2. [3:48pm] PeterThoeny: if you watch a whole web, and you are on a topic that you watch as well (say, you clicked on "all topic" after you watched that topic), the menu has "unwatch" [3:48pm] PeterThoeny: if you unwatch then nothing happens because you are watching the whole web [3:49pm] timothe: Yes, that's by design. [3:49pm] PeterThoeny: the ui in topic view should reflect that "watch whole web" state [3:49pm] timothe: If you carefully construct a list of topics to watch, then turn on ALL, by mistake or temporarily, you don't want to lose the list. [3:49pm] PeterThoeny: agreed [3:50pm] PeterThoeny: to mer it looks like we should have three states per topic: watch, unwatch, undefined [3:50pm] timothe: Anyhow, I'm done for now (unless I hit another bug), so you have the write token.  Let me know if you need help understanding the tricks I played to make it work. [3:50pm] PeterThoeny: if undefined, it falls back to web level setting [3:51pm] HideyoImazu: like ALLOWWEB* and ALLOWTOPIC* [3:51pm] PeterThoeny: i am not clear yet myself on ui at topic level, i will think about [3:51pm] PeterThoeny: thanks again timothe! [3:52pm] PeterThoeny: next: [3:52pm] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Plugins/SpreadSheetPlugin [3:52pm] PeterThoeny: i added new functions ADDLIST(), GETLIST(), SETLIST() for save and restore lists [3:53pm] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Plugins/EcoTrashPlugin [3:53pm] PeterThoeny: timothe and i went back one forth on enhancing this new plugin [3:53pm] PeterThoeny: i think it is now in a good state [3:54pm] PeterThoeny: to be included as a core plugin [3:54pm] PeterThoeny: technically it is accepted proposal, so no extra step needed [3:54pm] PeterThoeny: still i'd like to ask here: [3:54pm] PeterThoeny: anything else you'd like to see before adding to core? [3:54pm] timothe: Yes, except for how the CSS work-around for patternskin is packaged.  Thanks for all your help. [3:55pm] PeterThoeny: this is harmless, even if another skin is used or the patternskin css changes [3:56pm] timothe: The one issue that isn't addressed is scalablilty to very large trash webs.  Someone (not me) might want to limit how many/which items are displayed. [3:56pm] HideyoImazu: if you use multiple disks, each disk has its own Trash [3:56pm] PeterThoeny: all: on plugin functionality, anything else that should be done before adding to core? [3:56pm] HideyoImazu: is it considered? [3:56pm] PeterThoeny: ah, yes, the multiple disc is possibly not supported at this time [3:57pm] timothe: I only know about one Trash web. [3:57pm] PeterThoeny: btw, we do not add new plugins to a patch release, so this feature is scheduled for kampala release [3:58pm] PeterThoeny: twiki-6.0 and earlier users can install the plugin separately [3:59pm] HideyoImazu: timothe, http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/TWiki06x00/UsingMultipleDisks [4:00pm] PeterThoeny: HideyoImazu: could you look into multiple disk support for the trash manager? [4:00pm] PeterThoeny: there is no hurry, since this plugin will ship with kampala [4:00pm] HideyoImazu: Sure. I feel obliged to do it. [4:01pm] timothe: Let me know if you need any help understanding how the current code works. [4:01pm] HideyoImazu: ok [4:01pm] PeterThoeny: some other smaller things have been done to other plugins [4:01pm] PeterThoeny: time check: +61 min [4:02pm] PeterThoeny: ---++ 3. Review Urgent and Not So Urgent Bugs [4:02pm] PeterThoeny: i have nothing here [4:02pm] PeterThoeny: skip? [4:03pm] PeterThoeny: ---++ 4. Miscellaneous [4:03pm] PeterThoeny: anything? [4:03pm] PeterThoeny: it's good to have you timothe and HaraldJoerg here at the release meeting [4:04pm] HideyoImazu: indeed [4:04pm] PeterThoeny: meaning, it's nice to see old timers come back [4:04pm] HaraldJoerg: I just came for lurking what's currently on the mind of TWiki development [4:04pm] timothe: Since I changed things, thought I should be here to take any complaints. [4:04pm] PeterThoeny: could we do a concerted effort to ask people back? [4:05pm] PeterThoeny: we have rock solid releases for a few years now, and focused development [4:05pm] PeterThoeny: it should be attractive to developers to participate [4:05pm] HaraldJoerg: I have had no contact with other developers in the past five or so years [4:06pm] timothe: The fork is doing its own thing; they won't come back.  People will come if they have something to contribute, or there's something in it for them. [4:07pm] HideyoImazu: How about creating a RejuvenateCommunity topic somewhere and discuss? [4:07pm] PeterThoeny: good idea [4:08pm] PeterThoeny: we have http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/GettingInvolved [4:08pm] PeterThoeny: which is prominently listed in homepage [4:08pm] PeterThoeny: a new topic to discuss on boarding of new developers is good [4:09pm] PeterThoeny: who wants to take the lead? [4:10pm] HideyoImazu: I will [4:11pm] HideyoImazu: Codev.RejuvenateCommunity is OK? [4:11pm] PeterThoeny: thanks [4:11pm] PeterThoeny: sure [4:11pm] PeterThoeny: let's close the meeting [4:11pm] PeterThoeny: i'll post the logs [4:12pm] PeterThoeny: thank you HaraldJoerg, HideyoImazu-san, timothe! & two- (who?) [4:12pm] HideyoImazu: thanks all [4:12pm] timothe left the chat room. [4:13pm] HaraldJoerg: Thanks, and good morning, night.. whatever [4:14pm] HaraldJoerg left the chat room.