Subject: KampalaMeetingLog2013x11x07.txt Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2013 16:25:33 -0800 [2:54pm] jiahao joined the chat room. [2:54pm] jiahao: Hello Peter [2:54pm] PeterThoeny: hi jiahao - welcome! [2:54pm] jiahao: Nice to e-meet you! [2:55pm] PeterThoeny: so you live in shanghai? [2:55pm] jiahao: Yes [2:55pm] PeterThoeny: i have never been there [2:55pm] PeterThoeny: once to beijing many years ago [2:55pm] PeterThoeny: many many times to hong kong, a few times to china near hkg [2:56pm] jiahao: Wow, you have got a very broad foot print already [2:56pm] HideyoImazu joined the chat room. [2:56pm] jiahao: Shanghai is generally great, better if not crowded [2:56pm] PeterThoeny: i used to live in japan for many years, so hkg and china are nearby [2:57pm] PeterThoeny: hi HideyoImazu-san! [2:57pm] jiahao: Hello Imazu-san [2:57pm] PeterThoeny: my wife is from hkg, that is the reason why i have been there many times [2:57pm] PeterThoeny: i'd like to go to shanghai one day [2:58pm] jiahao: When you come, I would very much like to be your local guide, if you need one [2:59pm] PeterThoeny: sure, and we can go drink a beer [3:00pm] jiahao: Nice! [3:00pm] timothe joined the chat room. [3:01pm] PeterThoeny: hi timothe! long time no see! [3:01pm] timothe: hi [3:01pm] PeterThoeny: HideyoImazu-san, what's new in tokyo? [3:01pm] HideyoImazu: hi all [3:03pm] nobozo_ joined the chat room. [3:03pm] PeterThoeny: hi nobozo_, welcome [3:03pm] nobozo_: Hi - this is Jon Forrest [3:03pm] PeterThoeny: ah, hi jon! [3:05pm] nobozo_: How many people are you expecting? [3:05pm] PeterThoeny: not sure [3:05pm] PeterThoeny: may be one or two more? [3:05pm] nobozo_: You've been so helpful that I thought I should return the favor. [3:06pm] PeterThoeny: since some don't know each other, could please each give a one line intro: work, how use twiki [3:07pm] nobozo_: Who first? [3:07pm] timothe: personal user, contribute to development once in a while. [3:07pm] PeterThoeny: i am the founder of twiki and work now as a consultant helping companies deploy collaborative solutions effectively at the workplace [3:07pm] HideyoImazu: I'm still taking care of TWiki in Morgan Stanley having 8000+ webs [3:07pm] PeterThoeny: (random order) [3:08pm] jiahao: I'm with Imazu-san [3:08pm] nobozo_: I work at Riverbed where we have a major TWiki site. I'm in the process of upgrading from 4.1.2 to 5.1.4. [3:09pm] PeterThoeny: and if i recall correctly, timothe deployed twiki ad two semiconductor firms in the past [3:09pm] PeterThoeny: nobozo_: why not twiki-6.0.0? [3:10pm] nobozo_: Good question. I've done a massive amount of work preparing for the upgrade before 6.0 came out. I'm 99% finished so I'd rather not start over. [3:10pm] timothe: no, used it at one - someone else deployed. But I do have an enterprise (software & hardware) background. [3:11pm] PeterThoeny: time check: +10 min [3:11pm] PeterThoeny: let's get started [3:11pm] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/KampalaReleaseMeeting2013x11x07 [3:11pm] PeterThoeny: proposed agenda: [3:11pm] PeterThoeny: 1. Release Focus of Next Release [3:11pm] PeterThoeny: 2. Feature Requests for Jerusalem Release [3:11pm] PeterThoeny: 3. Review Urgent and Not So Urgent Bugs [3:11pm] PeterThoeny: 4. Extensions [3:11pm] PeterThoeny: 5. Miscellaneous [3:11pm] PeterThoeny: anything to add? [3:12pm] timothe: Isn't (2) "Kampala"? [3:12pm] PeterThoeny: haha, yes! [3:12pm] PeterThoeny: copy & past error [3:12pm] jiahao left the chat room. (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) [3:12pm] PeterThoeny: oh, jiahao seems to have a network issue? [3:13pm] PeterThoeny: ---++ 1. Release Focus of Kampala Release [3:13pm] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/KampalaRelease#Release_Focus [3:13pm] PeterThoeny: in last meeting we came up with these points [3:14pm] PeterThoeny: let's review them [3:14pm] timothe: Well, for (1) I suggest "Keeping up with technology", specifically: "Latest browsers" & "IPv6". Also, consider what browsers & perl versions can be deprecated/removed. [3:14pm] PeterThoeny: and since we have additional people today, let's see if we can/should add/change the release focus [3:15pm] PeterThoeny: good point on specific versions [3:15pm] PeterThoeny: we already state perl version required and recommended [3:15pm] PeterThoeny: we do not yet for browser versions [3:15pm] nobozo_: I have limited knowledge of your development process but based on my experiences installing TWiki, there are various installation issues I'd like to see attacked. For example, every plugin install fails and has to be done on the command line. [3:16pm] PeterThoeny: nobozo_: known issue. only in certain environments, the installer fails [3:16pm] PeterThoeny: we need to debug that [3:16pm] timothe: Yes, but time moves on and hanging on to old ones creates support work - and with the limited staffing, supporting really old perl & browsers is a burden. Trade-off with customer inertia, of course. [3:16pm] PeterThoeny: i can't reproduce on my centos installs [3:17pm] timothe: Things like drag & drop require HTML5 - and that means IE V1.0 doesn't fly. [3:17pm] nobozo_: Right. I can reproduce 100%. It's issues like this that make people new to TWiki pull out their hair, and then move to some other Wiki. [3:17pm] PeterThoeny: well, on browser, we can simply state that any platform that jquery supports is kosher [3:18pm] timothe: And IPv6 is moving up on enterprise radar. I did some work on this for the fork; it's not trivial. [3:18pm] PeterThoeny: asia seems much more aware on ipv6 than usa [3:18pm] timothe: jquery won't support file drag and drop unless the browser does. [3:18pm] PeterThoeny: here hery few ask for ipv6 [3:19pm] timothe: I'm on an IPv6 connection for this chat. [3:19pm] timothe: Anyhow, let's not negotiate the answers; you asked for focus items, and those were examples of "keepin up with tech" theme suggestion. [3:19pm] PeterThoeny: we can change the code to rely much more on jquery [3:20pm] PeterThoeny: e.g. do more dynamic stuff on browser side [3:20pm] PeterThoeny: i am using much more jquery nowadays with client work i do [3:20pm] timothe: sure, but jquery can only do what the underlying browser supports. And we have to test against every supported environment. [3:20pm] PeterThoeny: mainly to create usable twiki apps [3:20pm] timothe: TWiki staff is limited. [3:21pm] HideyoImazu: depending more on jqeury is kind of "keeping up with the technology trend" [3:21pm] timothe: Another item is themes for mobile, which seems to be taking over the world. [3:21pm] PeterThoeny: good point on mobile! [3:22pm] PeterThoeny: let's take mobile accessibility into release focus? [3:22pm] timothe: Again, do you want to dive deep, or just make lists. You onlyt have an hour today. [3:23pm] PeterThoeny: don't dive deep [3:23pm] timothe: Another item: accesibility (as in for screen readers, braille, etc.) [3:23pm] PeterThoeny: purpose is high level, e.g. where we should focus our little resources [3:24pm] PeterThoeny: on accessibility for disabled, good point, but i think that is an item that should be done as a sponsored project [3:24pm] timothe: OK, so I'm saying "keep up with technology" & "reduce qual/devel burden by dropping old stuff". [3:24pm] PeterThoeny: a gov agency that needs that can pay for that [3:25pm] PeterThoeny: agreed, old ie6 etc can/should be dropped [3:25pm] timothe: Corporations are being audited for compliance with ADA; gov['t with PL508 - now for decades. If the product doesn't support it, customers go to other products. TWiki isn't THAT special. [3:25pm] HideyoImazu: accessibility is important but it will be a major and ongoing undertaking [3:25pm] timothe: TWiki should at least be run against the W3C compliance tests. [3:26pm] PeterThoeny: agreed [3:26pm] PeterThoeny: last time i stated: [3:26pm] PeterThoeny: Goal: Speed-up queries and page load to 1 sec [3:27pm] PeterThoeny: that requires substantial work on queries [3:27pm] timothe: or better caching. [3:27pm] nobozo_: Have you decided that including mod_perl support as standard is too risky? [3:27pm] PeterThoeny: last time we discussed enhancing current meta repository to cache also page meta data () [3:27pm] nobozo_: It would improve performance [3:28pm] PeterThoeny: (now "just" web metadata) [3:28pm] timothe: the big problem with mod_perl is the plugins. The core isn't (or wasn't last time I looked) in bad shape. But it needs on-going testing & attn. [3:28pm] PeterThoeny: core code and core plugins supposedly are mod_perl clean [3:29pm] timothe: caching query results is also a big win. It means dependency tracking. [3:29pm] timothe: (Many pages have query results that are essentially static.) [3:30pm] PeterThoeny: you get around dependency tracking if you index metadata and run queries against that index [3:31pm] timothe: caching is still faster - but as I'm not doing the work, how you get there is your choice [3:31pm] timothe: 30 min [3:31pm] PeterThoeny: yes: time check, 30 more min [3:32pm] PeterThoeny: timothe: is ipv6 something you are interested to bring to twiki? [3:32pm] PeterThoeny: all: what about enterprise social networking features? is there a need? [3:33pm] jiahao joined the chat room. [3:33pm] nobozo_: What does "enterprise social networking features" mean? [3:33pm] PeterThoeny: such as ad-hoc creation of communities, invite to community, join/leave a community [3:33pm] PeterThoeny: - wall [3:34pm] PeterThoeny: - micro-blogging / activity streams [3:34pm] timothe: IPv6 - Maybe. I did most of the work on the fork. I might backport. For me, drag & drop attach has higher priority. [3:34pm] PeterThoeny: in this context, wall does not mean larry [3:35pm] PeterThoeny: d&d in attachment screen and in tinymce editor has high prio imho [3:35pm] timothe: social net - I'm not sure about duplicating other systems - maybe better to frame/link to the popular technologes. [3:35pm] nobozo_: My vote is to attack installation issues - not just mine (<>) but make a pass through the issues people have reported to make sure you at least understand what caused them. [3:36pm] timothe: Install is an issue with seLinux - and that's an enterprise barrier. [3:36pm] PeterThoeny: nobozo_: yes, good first time impression is important [3:37pm] timothe: Looking at feature proposals, lots have hundreds of days since commit. [3:37pm] PeterThoeny: if you stay with 5.1.4 i recommend to at least install the latest spreadsheetplugin, twikidashboardaddon, scrollboxaddon, jqueryplugin, then add dashboards to web homes and team homepages [3:38pm] PeterThoeny: i have not seen requirement of using selinux with my client base [3:39pm] PeterThoeny: but i can imagine there are gov agencies and large corps that require selinux [3:39pm] timothe: It's the default for redhat. [3:39pm] jiahao: Hey, guys, I'm going to set off for work, I got a very long commute. It's very nice to meet you all! [3:39pm] PeterThoeny: ok, we have a lot of input here [3:39pm] PeterThoeny: let me digest this offline and update the release focu [3:39pm] PeterThoeny: "focus" [3:39pm] nobozo_: It's more important to solve my other issues, such as why attachments show up as created by "UnknownUser". I don't doubt the new stuff is nice but I can't regress, which is what worried me the most. [3:39pm] jiahao left the chat room. (Quit: Page closed) [3:40pm] PeterThoeny: ---++ 2. Feature Requests for Kampala Release [3:40pm] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/TWikiFeatureProposals [3:40pm] timothe: Agree fixing bugs should be highest priority - but that's not a major release. [3:40pm] nobozo_: I'm new here so I'm not used to irc meetings but I wonder if there's a way to do voice meetings. It would be a much more efficient use of time. [3:41pm] PeterThoeny: yes, we could revisit this [3:41pm] PeterThoeny: we considered skype and google hangout in the past [3:42pm] PeterThoeny: problem with skype is that there is no unique & permanent url/identifier for a group chat [3:43pm] PeterThoeny: may be use irc and skype? so that we can communicate skype group chat/talk on irc? [3:43pm] PeterThoeny: someone interested in looking into this again? [3:43pm] nobozo_: I've heard good things about Google but I haven't tried it myself... Any way, I have to go do a deploy. Thanks for inviting me. Sorry I didn't have anything valuable to contribute. [3:43pm] timothe: You can get a bridge. But audio doesn't scale - though now there are few participants. [3:43pm] PeterThoeny: thanks for stopping by jon! [3:43pm] nobozo_ left the chat room. (Quit: Page closed) [3:44pm] PeterThoeny: back to feature requests [3:45pm] PeterThoeny: as part of the new release work, i migrated all jerusalem feature requests of status under investigation and accepted to kampala [3:45pm] PeterThoeny: so we see the same list now in kampala [3:45pm] PeterThoeny: we do not have any new proposal since last meeting [3:46pm] timothe: we have a lot of old ones with no progress. [3:46pm] PeterThoeny: HideyoImazu: you have two that are under investigation - are they current? [3:47pm] HideyoImazu: let me check [3:47pm] PeterThoeny: yes, many accepted one are stale and need some tlc [3:48pm] PeterThoeny: ---++ 3. Review Urgent and Not So Urgent Bugs [3:48pm] timothe: 10 min - what else do you want to accomplish? [3:49pm] PeterThoeny: agenda item list [3:49pm] timothe: I see "release blockers" that are 1-5 years old. [3:49pm] PeterThoeny: they should be reprioritized [3:50pm] timothe: Or fixed :-)\ [3:50pm] PeterThoeny: many are i18n related [3:50pm] PeterThoeny: or fixed, yes [3:50pm] PeterThoeny: someone with interest in i18n [3:50pm] timothe: "Email doesn't work"; Upgrade doesn't scale; can't create users; etc. [3:51pm] PeterThoeny: so twiki-6.0.0 was the best .0 release we ever had in terms of bugs [3:51pm] timothe: I18n has serious taint issues. [3:51pm] PeterThoeny: no showstoppers in new release [3:51pm] timothe: (In perl) [3:51pm] HideyoImazu: timothe, is it really the case even now? [3:52pm] PeterThoeny: we have lot's of items in the bug database that need review [3:52pm] PeterThoeny: i did a lot last month [3:52pm] timothe: I know the fork says you have to turn of taint checking for I18n to work. [3:52pm] PeterThoeny: closed many that were no longer relevant [3:52pm] PeterThoeny: much more review is needed [3:54pm] PeterThoeny: i don't really care what the fork says (commits 75% down in last 12 month) [3:55pm] PeterThoeny: (this is according to ohloh stats) [3:55pm] timothe: The issues reported are in perl core. Let's not get into religious wars. [3:55pm] PeterThoeny: back to bugs database [3:56pm] HideyoImazu: timothe, do you mean there are a lot of taint warnings when you Set LANGUAGE = ? [3:56pm] PeterThoeny: i encourage you to to run some reports and pick some bugs to review them and close or fix them [3:56pm] PeterThoeny: http://develop.twiki.org/~twiki4/cgi-bin/view/Bugs/DetailedItemsQuery?Summary=&search=&AppliesTo=Engine&CurrentState=Confirmed [3:57pm] PeterThoeny: this report for example shows 68 confirmed core bugs [3:59pm] timothe left the chat room. [3:59pm] PeterThoeny: and this shows 26 confirmed core extension bugs: [3:59pm] PeterThoeny: http://develop.twiki.org/~twiki4/cgi-bin/view/Bugs/DetailedItemsQuery?Summary=&search=&AppliesTo=Extension&Component=default&CurrentState=Confirmed [4:00pm] PeterThoeny: time check: +60 min [4:00pm] PeterThoeny: lets close in a few min [4:00pm] PeterThoeny: we lost timothe [4:00pm] PeterThoeny: ---+ 4. Extensions [4:01pm] PeterThoeny: we have new PreviewWindowPlugin [4:01pm] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Plugins/PreviewWindowPlugin [4:01pm] PeterThoeny: thank you morgan stanley team! [4:01pm] PeterThoeny: and jiahao [4:02pm] PeterThoeny: does he intend to check this into subversion too? [4:02pm] HideyoImazu: yes [4:02pm] HideyoImazu: we're still working on it [4:03pm] HideyoImazu: once it becomes mature enough, he will commit to the SVN repository [4:03pm] PeterThoeny: ok, cool! [4:03pm] PeterThoeny: thanks also for updating the AutoSectionsPlugin [4:04pm] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Plugins/AutoSectionsPlugin [4:04pm] PeterThoeny: do you think it makes sense to add this to the core plugins? [4:04pm] PeterThoeny: may be for 6.1? [4:05pm] HideyoImazu: I'm really tempted [4:05pm] PeterThoeny: i think it makes sense [4:05pm] HideyoImazu: but as of now, it does raw text editing only [4:05pm] PeterThoeny: yes, i think wysiwyg editing is very much expected nowadays [4:05pm] HideyoImazu: if it supports wysiwyg editing, definitely [4:06pm] PeterThoeny: i have nothing else on extensions [4:06pm] PeterThoeny: ---++ 5. Miscellaneous [4:06pm] PeterThoeny: anything? [4:07pm] HideyoImazu: not from me [4:07pm] PeterThoeny: neither me [4:07pm] PeterThoeny: on svn actually, i think it is good to checkin non-mature core [4:07pm] PeterThoeny: "code" [4:08pm] PeterThoeny: in plugin topic it can be stated "alpha" or "beta release" [4:08pm] PeterThoeny: ok, i'll post the logs and update the minutes [4:08pm] PeterThoeny: thanks hideyo-san! [4:09pm] HideyoImazu: jiahao not yet checked in is partly because he hasn't committed anything to the SVN repository [4:09pm] HideyoImazu: he wants his first commit to be a good one rather than a half baked one [4:10pm] PeterThoeny: ah, understood [4:10pm] HideyoImazu: maybe once he is used to checking in, he will commit alpha or beta code [4:11pm] HideyoImazu: ttyl! [4:11pm] PeterThoeny: may beyaojun can get him up to speed on svn [4:11pm] PeterThoeny: ok, ttyl HideyoImazu-san, thanks! [4:11pm] HideyoImazu: sure