Subject: JerusalemMeetingLog2013x08x29.txt
Date: August 29, 2013 4:16:58 PM PDT

[2:58pm]  HideyoImazu joined the chat room.
[2:59pm] PeterThoeny: hi HideyoImazu-san!
[2:59pm] HideyoImazu: Hi Peter!
[2:59pm] PeterThoeny: what's new in tokyo?
[3:00pm] HideyoImazu: it's getting less hot
[3:00pm] PeterThoeny: good
[3:00pm] PeterThoeny: beer in evening
[3:01pm] HideyoImazu: I had one big glass of beer after work with colleagues yesterday
[3:03pm] PeterThoeny: my son got new archery gear
[3:03pm] PeterThoeny: he is all excited
[3:03pm] PeterThoeny: it's a high end olympic bow
[3:03pm] PeterThoeny: we'll go this wekend
[3:03pm] PeterThoeny: "weekend"
[3:04pm] HideyoImazu: my son got affected by a web forum security breech
[3:04pm] PeterThoeny: not sure if anybody is joining today
[3:04pm] PeterThoeny: oh
[3:04pm] HideyoImazu: he used the same password as that forum at various places
[3:05pm] HideyoImazu: and the web forum was storing passwords in plain text
[3:05pm] PeterThoeny: yea, that will be a lesson for him
[3:05pm] PeterThoeny: ouch
[3:06pm] PeterThoeny: shall we start?
[3:06pm] HideyoImazu: sure
[3:06pm] PeterThoeny: agenda at http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/JerusalemReleaseMeeting2013x08x29
[3:06pm] PeterThoeny: 1. Feature Requests for Jerusalem Release
[3:06pm] PeterThoeny: 2. Review Urgent and Not So Urgent Bugs
[3:06pm] PeterThoeny: 3. Extensions
[3:06pm] PeterThoeny: 4. TWiki-6.0 Release Planning
[3:06pm] PeterThoeny: 5. Miscellaneous
[3:06pm] PeterThoeny: ---++ 1. Feature Requests for Jerusalem Release
[3:07pm] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/TWikiFeatureProposals
[3:07pm] PeterThoeny: i see you have 3
[3:07pm] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/DemoteUserPreferences
[3:07pm] HideyoImazu: what do  you think?
[3:07pm] PeterThoeny: technically accepted by 7 day rule
[3:07pm] PeterThoeny: i am ok with out
[3:08pm] PeterThoeny: just raises the complexity a bit
[3:08pm] PeterThoeny: but ok if documented (which you always do)
[3:08pm] PeterThoeny: on suggestion: be constant with access control convention we already have
[3:09pm] PeterThoeny: instead of ! negation i recommend to use the ALLOWFOOBAR and DENYFOOBAR settings
[3:09pm] HideyoImazu: sure
[3:09pm] HideyoImazu: ah
[3:09pm] PeterThoeny: that is likely also easier to implement because that logic is already there
[3:09pm] HideyoImazu: ok
[3:10pm] PeterThoeny: so it could be ALLOWUSERPREFERENCES and DENYUSERPREFERENCES
[3:10pm] HideyoImazu: understood. I take that.
[3:10pm] PeterThoeny: i think that is more consistent for users
[3:11pm] PeterThoeny: other than that looks good
[3:11pm] PeterThoeny: next?
[3:12pm] HideyoImazu: one question
[3:12pm] HideyoImazu: how should TWiki behave if DENYUSERPREFERENCES is set to an empty string?
[3:13pm] HideyoImazu: should it mean user preferences can override any preferences variables as long as 
they are not finalised?
[3:13pm] PeterThoeny: ah that was a controversial topic
[3:14pm] PeterThoeny: i forgot
[3:14pm] PeterThoeny: let's check
[3:15pm] PeterThoeny: found it:
[3:15pm] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/TWiki/TWikiAccessControl#How_TWiki_evaluates_ALLOW_DENY_s
[3:17pm] PeterThoeny: so currently if deny is empty it means access ok
[3:17pm] PeterThoeny: which is confusing
[3:17pm] PeterThoeny: but best to keep same spec for now
[3:18pm] HideyoImazu: ok
[3:18pm] PeterThoeny: or, we could have a new feature proposal to change the spec of deny to a more logical 
one: if empty, deny setting is ignored
[3:18pm] PeterThoeny: what do you think?
[3:19pm] HideyoImazu: probably empty DENYWEB* and DENYTOPIC* should mean the same as not defined.
[3:20pm] PeterThoeny: with current spec, if DENYUSERPREFERENCES is defined and empty, it means access ok
[3:20pm] PeterThoeny: agreed
[3:20pm] PeterThoeny: but i do not think we should make an exception just for DENYUSERPREFERENCES
[3:20pm] HideyoImazu: correct
[3:21pm] PeterThoeny: i am all for changing the spec of all DENY* settings to: if defined and empty, it is 
ignored
[3:21pm] HideyoImazu: let me think a bit more about ALLOWUSERPREFERENCES and DENYUSERPREFERENCES
[3:21pm] PeterThoeny: while you are at it how about fixing the DENY* behavior to the more logical spec?
[3:22pm] HideyoImazu: sort of
[3:22pm] HideyoImazu: I will think about ALLOWUSERPREFERENCES and DENYUSERPREFERENCES
[3:23pm] PeterThoeny: let me write the proposal of changing the spec of DENY* but i can't commit to implement
[3:23pm] HideyoImazu: having both the current DENYWEB* and DENYTOPIC* behavior and futhre state of them in 
minde
[3:23pm] PeterThoeny: i think there is a single call that manages both DENY* and ALLOW*
[3:23pm] PeterThoeny: so it would be a single location to change the spec for all
[3:23pm] HideyoImazu: yes
[3:24pm] HideyoImazu: the code change should be easy
[3:24pm] HideyoImazu: and there should be no problem deploying the change in my installation
[3:25pm] HideyoImazu: because more limited access in an intranet is safer than wider access
[3:25pm] PeterThoeny: it is documented that spec will change "in next release" - it was like that for a long 
time
[3:25pm] PeterThoeny: so it is time 
[3:26pm] HideyoImazu: 
[3:26pm] PeterThoeny: ok, next?
[3:26pm] HideyoImazu: sure
[3:26pm] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/MostPopularWebsInSiteStatistics - by HideyoImazu-san
[3:27pm] PeterThoeny: still under investigation state, should be changed to accepted
[3:27pm] HideyoImazu: any question or suggestion?
[3:27pm] PeterThoeny: i am still not clear about adding new columns
[3:28pm] PeterThoeny: if a site with existing SiteStatistics is upgraded to latest twiki, how is the existing 
table affected?
[3:29pm] HideyoImazu: if SiteStatistics is not changed manually, no change will happen
[3:29pm] PeterThoeny: but each day the table is updated, either current month row replaced, or new row added
[3:30pm] PeterThoeny: look at existing: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Main/SiteStatistics
[3:30pm] HideyoImazu: the current month row is written based on the template row
[3:31pm] HideyoImazu: which is the second row of the table
[3:31pm] PeterThoeny: for each month we have 17 items recorded
[3:31pm] PeterThoeny: ah, now i understand
[3:32pm] PeterThoeny: on upgrade you have to manually change the |<!--…-->| row to take advantage of the 
additional stats
[3:32pm] PeterThoeny: right?
[3:32pm] HideyoImazu: that's right
[3:32pm] PeterThoeny: ok
[3:33pm] PeterThoeny: so this should be noted in release notes
[3:33pm] PeterThoeny: we already have a release notes topic
[3:33pm] HideyoImazu: sure
[3:33pm] PeterThoeny: you could add a note there
[3:33pm] PeterThoeny: currently it is called TWikiReleaseNotes05x02
[3:34pm] HideyoImazu: I will do so once the feature is committed to the source repository
[3:34pm] PeterThoeny: note to self: rename to TWikiReleaseNotes06x00
[3:34pm] PeterThoeny: next?
[3:35pm] HideyoImazu: yes
[3:35pm] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/StatsUniqueUsersAndBreakdown - by HideyoImazu-san
[3:35pm] PeterThoeny: also state "under investigation" should be changed
[3:35pm] HideyoImazu: sure
[3:35pm] HideyoImazu: any question or suggestion?
[3:36pm] PeterThoeny: same here too? nothing changes unless you change the |<!--…-->| row?
[3:36pm] HideyoImazu: no
[3:37pm] HideyoImazu: additional things are put on existing columns
[3:37pm] PeterThoeny: how do you handle upgrade then?
[3:38pm] HideyoImazu: after the upgrade, the current month row gets the additional things
[3:38pm] PeterThoeny: sorry, dummy me
[3:38pm] PeterThoeny: yes, no additional columns
[3:39pm] PeterThoeny: i think that is all for features
[3:39pm] PeterThoeny: let me check...
[3:41pm] PeterThoeny: nothing else from me
[3:41pm] PeterThoeny: ---++ 2. Review Urgent and Not So Urgent Bugs
[3:41pm] HideyoImazu: same here
[3:41pm] PeterThoeny: http://develop.twiki.org/~twiki4/cgi-bin/view/Bugs/ReleaseBlocker
[3:42pm] PeterThoeny: http://develop.twiki.org/~twiki4/cgi-bin/view/Bugs/Item7314 - Item7314: Rename/Move of 
a parent topic with a non-WikiWord name breaks parent-child linkage
[3:42pm] PeterThoeny: this is likely a genuine bug
[3:42pm] PeterThoeny: but i do not think this is a release blocker
[3:43pm] PeterThoeny: change to "normal"?
[3:43pm] HideyoImazu: agreed
[3:44pm] PeterThoeny: i'll change
[3:44pm] PeterThoeny: i have nothing else on bugs
[3:44pm] PeterThoeny: ---++ 3. Extensions
[3:44pm] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Plugins/WebChanges
[3:45pm] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Plugins/LdapContribDev
[3:45pm] PeterThoeny: Terje Andersen of cern is working on several enhancements
[3:46pm] PeterThoeny: it looks like he is a good coder
[3:46pm] PeterThoeny: DirectedGraphPlugin - updated by Yaojun
[3:47pm] PeterThoeny: JQueryPlugin - I updated to latest jQuery and jQuery-UI
[3:47pm] HideyoImazu: cool
[3:47pm] PeterThoeny: which broke the AutoSectionsPlugin due to jquery api changes
[3:47pm] PeterThoeny: mahiro-san already fixed this - thanks!
[3:48pm] PeterThoeny: SpreadSheetPlugin: Item7322: TRANSLATE supporting double quote and apostrophe-quote 
(single quote) excape tokens
[3:48pm] PeterThoeny: this was a small enhancement i needed for a twiki app for a client
[3:49pm] PeterThoeny: some other small fixes on foxygen import and dashboard add-on
[3:50pm] HideyoImazu: it's not an enhancement but I wrote TWiki.PageRenderingProcess
[3:50pm] PeterThoeny: i have seen
[3:50pm] PeterThoeny: this was needed & requested many times
[3:50pm] PeterThoeny: thank you very much!
[3:50pm] HideyoImazu: np
[3:51pm] PeterThoeny: is it linked to from related places?
[3:51pm] HideyoImazu: yes
[3:51pm] PeterThoeny: nice!
[3:51pm] PeterThoeny: anything else on extensions?
[3:51pm] HideyoImazu: reachable from TWiki.DeveloperDocumentationCategory
[3:52pm] HideyoImazu: no
[3:52pm] PeterThoeny: may be link also from reference manual?
[3:52pm] PeterThoeny: and twiki plugins?
[3:53pm] HideyoImazu: ok
[3:53pm] HideyoImazu: i'll take a look
[3:53pm] PeterThoeny: ok
[3:53pm] PeterThoeny: ---++ 4. TWiki-6.0 Release Planning
[3:53pm] PeterThoeny: we are in relatively good shape
[3:53pm] PeterThoeny: however, i think one change would make a difference:
[3:54pm] PeterThoeny: the tinymce is very old, and the wysiwyg editor is buggy
[3:54pm] PeterThoeny: it would be nice if we upgrade those two plugins
[3:54pm] HideyoImazu: agreed
[3:54pm] PeterThoeny: that could be however quite some work
[3:54pm] HideyoImazu: yes
[3:55pm] PeterThoeny: quickest way is likely to use the f**wiki stuff
[3:55pm] PeterThoeny: however, not sure how stable that is
[3:55pm] PeterThoeny: so, here is my proposal:
[3:56pm] PeterThoeny: we postpone rc1 by one week, e.g. not this weekend
[3:56pm] PeterThoeny: i look into upgrading the two plugins over this weekend
[3:57pm] PeterThoeny: i can't promise i can do that in that time frame
[3:57pm] HideyoImazu: sounds good
[3:57pm] PeterThoeny: so if wysiwyg upgrade is ok before rc1, twiki-6 ships with new tinymce, else ship with 
current one
[3:58pm] PeterThoeny: what else should be done before code freeze of rc1?
[3:58pm] PeterThoeny: i'd like to see the DENY* spec change done for 6.0
[3:59pm] PeterThoeny: i'd say it is a "nice to have"
[4:00pm] HideyoImazu: i'm working on tools/gendoc.pl
[4:00pm] HideyoImazu: to make the *DotPm topics better
[4:00pm] PeterThoeny: i'll create a EmptyDenySettingMeansUndefinedSetting proposal topic
[4:00pm] HideyoImazu: together with TWiki.SourceCode
[4:00pm] PeterThoeny: the only dotpm that is important is the fund api
[4:01pm] PeterThoeny: "func api"
[4:01pm] PeterThoeny: i actually think that it is better not to ship other dotpms with twiki
[4:01pm] PeterThoeny: because it invites the use of unofficial functions
[4:02pm] PeterThoeny: bu that topic is for another time
[4:02pm] PeterThoeny: can you commit to the EmptyDenySettingMeansUndefinedSetting feature?
[4:02pm] HideyoImazu: yes, I can
[4:02pm] PeterThoeny: thank you
[4:03pm] HideyoImazu: once you write up the feature proposal
[4:03pm] PeterThoeny: i'll go ahed and create the feature proposal topic
[4:03pm] PeterThoeny: yes
[4:03pm] PeterThoeny: do speed things up for rc1 deadline, let;s get a handle on the feature now - we know 
the scope 
[4:03pm] PeterThoeny: +1
[4:04pm] HideyoImazu: +1
[4:04pm] PeterThoeny: good, quickly accepted by release meeting 
[4:05pm] PeterThoeny: amy other feature or bug that should go into rc1?
[4:05pm] HideyoImazu: no
[4:05pm] PeterThoeny: ok
[4:05pm] PeterThoeny: btw, for major releases we usually have beta1, beta2 etc
[4:05pm] PeterThoeny: i feel confident that we can do directly an rc1
[4:06pm] HideyoImazu: i feel the same too
[4:06pm] PeterThoeny: good
[4:06pm] PeterThoeny: that is all i had for release
[4:06pm] HideyoImazu: i'm running a TWiki build based on the latest trunk
[4:06pm] PeterThoeny: nice!
[4:07pm] PeterThoeny: ---++ 4. Miscellaneous
[4:07pm] PeterThoeny: anything?
[4:07pm] HideyoImazu: no
[4:07pm] PeterThoeny: neither me
[4:07pm] PeterThoeny: time: +67 min
[4:07pm] PeterThoeny: let's close the meeting
[4:07pm] PeterThoeny: thanks HideyoImazu-san!
[4:07pm] PeterThoeny: happy beer after work!
[4:08pm] HideyoImazu: ttyl
[4:10pm] PeterThoeny: i'll post the logs and update the minutes
[4:10pm] PeterThoeny: ttyl