Subject: JerusalemMeetingLog2013x05x30.txt
Date: May 30, 2013 4:40:37 PM PDT

[2:57pm]  HideyoImazu joined the chat room.
[3:00pm] HideyoImazu: Hi Peter. Are you there?
[3:01pm] PeterThoeny: hi HideyoImazu-san
[3:01pm] PeterThoeny: what's new in tokyo?
[3:01pm] PeterThoeny: besides stock market trouble?
[3:01pm] HideyoImazu: it's in rainy season.
[3:02pm] PeterThoeny: âme dame
[3:02pm] HideyoImazu: started earlier than usual.
[3:02pm]  YaojunFei joined the chat room.
[3:03pm] HideyoImazu: Hi Yaojun
[3:03pm] PeterThoeny: hi YaojunFei
[3:03pm] YaojunFei: Hi,Peter .
[3:03pm] PeterThoeny: how are you yaojun?
[3:03pm] YaojunFei: Hi,Imazu San
[3:04pm] YaojunFei: I'm good. Long time no chat
[3:04pm] YaojunFei: How about you,Peter
[3:04pm] PeterThoeny: long time no chat
[3:04pm] PeterThoeny: welcome back
[3:04pm] PeterThoeny: my son and i got into a new hobby:  archery
[3:04pm] PeterThoeny: yesterday i was teaching a friend who tried for the first time
[3:04pm] PeterThoeny: http://www.flickr.com/photos/peterthoeny/8886466063/in/photostream/lightbox/
[3:05pm] HideyoImazu: the photo is great
[3:05pm] PeterThoeny: thanks
[3:05pm] PeterThoeny: another hobby is HDR photography
[3:05pm] PeterThoeny: this is an HDR photo
[3:06pm] PeterThoeny: combined from three shots at different exposures
[3:06pm] HideyoImazu: taken by a camera or a cell phone?
[3:07pm] PeterThoeny: camera
[3:07pm] PeterThoeny: not possible with iPhone to do a shot like this
[3:07pm] PeterThoeny: new high end mirror less camera
[3:08pm] PeterThoeny: time check: +8 min
[3:08pm] HideyoImazu: which brand?
[3:08pm] PeterThoeny: sony nex-6
[3:08pm] HideyoImazu: cool!
[3:08pm] PeterThoeny: i am very pleased with the performance of this camera
[3:09pm] PeterThoeny: do you know this camera?
[3:09pm] HideyoImazu: sure
[3:09pm] HideyoImazu: though I've never touched/tried.
[3:09pm] HideyoImazu: it's a very compact one
[3:09pm] YaojunFei: I ever played bow for only one time. And hurt my inside of my arm unfortunately
[3:09pm] HideyoImazu: with a full size image sensor.
[3:09pm] PeterThoeny: i can recommend it if you are looking to get a camera
[3:10pm] PeterThoeny: yes, big sensor like a higher end slr
[3:11pm] PeterThoeny: let's start the meeting
[3:11pm] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/JerusalemReleaseMeeting2013x05x30
[3:11pm] PeterThoeny: agenda:
[3:11pm] PeterThoeny: 1. Feature Requests for Jerusalem Release
[3:11pm] PeterThoeny: 2. Review Urgent and Not So Urgent Bugs
[3:11pm] PeterThoeny: 3. Extensions
[3:11pm] PeterThoeny: 4. Get More Developers Involved
[3:11pm] PeterThoeny: 5. Miscellaneous
[3:11pm] PeterThoeny: ---++ 1. Feature Requests for Jerusalem Release
[3:11pm] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/TWikiFeatureProposals
[3:12pm] PeterThoeny: two items:
[3:12pm] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/SMTPUseTLS
[3:12pm] PeterThoeny: Add TLS support for SMTP using Perl  - by DarrenLichty
[3:12pm] PeterThoeny: darren provided a patch
[3:13pm] PeterThoeny: i committed to check it in
[3:13pm] HideyoImazu: cool
[3:13pm] PeterThoeny: proposed a little over 7 days ago
[3:13pm] PeterThoeny: so accepted by that feedback period
[3:16pm] PeterThoeny: i'll check in
[3:16pm] PeterThoeny: and update the docs
[3:16pm] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/SaveAttachmentWithoutDispatchingMessages
[3:16pm] PeterThoeny: Make SaveAttachment not trigger TWiki: :Plugins::dispatch - by YaojunFei
[3:17pm] PeterThoeny: is this now fixed by updating the plugin?
[3:17pm] PeterThoeny: e.g. core feature no longer needed?
[3:17pm] YaojunFei: This can be closed. I implement it in the way you suggested
[3:17pm] PeterThoeny: ok
[3:18pm] PeterThoeny: any other proposal to discuss?
[3:19pm] HideyoImazu: I don't have any
[3:19pm] PeterThoeny: ---++ 2. Review Urgent and Not So Urgent Bugs
[3:19pm] PeterThoeny: http://develop.twiki.org/~twiki4/cgi-bin/view/Bugs/ReleaseBlocker
[3:19pm] PeterThoeny: i don't have any
[3:19pm] HideyoImazu: mei either.
[3:19pm] PeterThoeny: http://develop.twiki.org/~twiki4/cgi-bin/view/Bugs/WebChanges
[3:20pm] PeterThoeny: ---++ 3. Extensions
[3:20pm] YaojunFei: Yes, fixed from plugin side
[3:20pm] YaojunFei: I don't have either
[3:20pm] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Plugins/WebChanges
[3:20pm] PeterThoeny: a few enhancements and fixes i have seen
[3:21pm] PeterThoeny: thank you MahiroAndo for enhancing the TWikiDrawPlugin
[3:22pm] PeterThoeny: any extension to highlight?
[3:23pm]  YaojunFei left the chat room. (Quit: YaojunFei)
[3:23pm] PeterThoeny: oh, bad connection?
[3:23pm] HideyoImazu: no
[3:23pm] PeterThoeny: ---++ 4. Get More Developers Involved
[3:23pm] HideyoImazu: I suppose so.
[3:23pm]  YaojunFei joined the chat room.
[3:23pm] PeterThoeny: welcome back, bad connection?
[3:24pm] PeterThoeny: so, we have good activity on enhancing twiki
[3:24pm] YaojunFei: Sorry, I lost me connection
[3:24pm] PeterThoeny: very much in line with the twiki mission
[3:24pm] PeterThoeny: and with focus on usability
[3:24pm] PeterThoeny: i think our current activity is good
[3:25pm] PeterThoeny: what we don't have is an active enough developer community
[3:25pm] PeterThoeny: i'd like to grow the whole ecosystem
[3:25pm] PeterThoeny: more corporate contributors, more consultant contributors, more university 
contributors
[3:26pm] PeterThoeny: 2.5 years ago i created the getting involved page
[3:26pm] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/GettingInvolved
[3:27pm] PeterThoeny: it is prominently linked from twiki.org homepage
[3:27pm] PeterThoeny: and i send out several e-mails a week to prospective contributors
[3:27pm] YaojunFei: What shall we do to attract more people?
[3:27pm] PeterThoeny: mainly from twiki.org registrations, and support questions
[3:28pm] PeterThoeny: yes, that is the big question
[3:28pm] PeterThoeny: i talked to community leaders
[3:28pm] PeterThoeny: they say that we are on the right track
[3:28pm] PeterThoeny: so i am kind of running out of ideas
[3:29pm] PeterThoeny: we have hackthons in silicon valley
[3:29pm] PeterThoeny: i sometimes attend
[3:29pm] PeterThoeny: there i also try to get new contributors
[3:30pm] HideyoImazu: I suppose the activity of the development community should be proportionate 
to the number of users.
[3:30pm] PeterThoeny: not necessarily
[3:30pm] HideyoImazu: true
[3:30pm] PeterThoeny: in the early days of twiki we did not have that many users, but we have like 
10+ regular contributors
[3:31pm] PeterThoeny: now we have millions of users and very few contributors
[3:31pm] HideyoImazu: but in the long run, that's an important factor, I believe
[3:31pm]  YaojunFei_ joined the chat room.
[3:31pm] HideyoImazu: let me say, enthusastic users
[3:32pm] PeterThoeny: may be we should look at how attractive the project is perceived and tune the 
message?
[3:32pm] PeterThoeny: yes, enthusiastic users is good
[3:33pm] PeterThoeny: i feel it the question is like how to get over the hump
[3:33pm] PeterThoeny: one we have daily conversations on the twiki.org wiki in the codev web and 
plugins web we have enough activity to draw people back
[3:34pm] PeterThoeny: and draw new people in
[3:34pm] PeterThoeny: so i think it is a bootstrap question
[3:34pm] PeterThoeny: this is the community approach
[3:35pm] HideyoImazu: I wonder if the number of twiki users is growing
[3:35pm] PeterThoeny: based on download stats it is pretty steady, e.g. not growing for the last year
[3:36pm]  YaojunFei_ left the chat room. (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
[3:37pm] PeterThoeny: another approach would be a consortium approach
[3:37pm] PeterThoeny: where we create a non-profit org
[3:38pm] PeterThoeny: and solicit membership by corporate users
[3:38pm] PeterThoeny: similar to how eclipse is organized
[3:40pm] PeterThoeny: once we have the twiki app packaging standard and marketplace we will have a new 
set of contributors
[3:41pm] PeterThoeny: when we introduced the plugins api we got more contributors because then people 
could do their own stuff without the need to coordinate with core code
[3:41pm] PeterThoeny: i foresee a similar thing once we have the app marketplace
[3:41pm] HideyoImazu: understood
[3:42pm] PeterThoeny: but those developers will be programming mostly in tml/html/css/js
[3:42pm] PeterThoeny: those developers will be a good pool to solicit for core and plugin work as well
[3:42pm] PeterThoeny: do you have any idea how to get more people involved?
[3:42pm]  YaojunFei left the chat room. (Remote host closed the connection)
[3:43pm] PeterThoeny: yaojun seems to have a bad connection
[3:43pm] HideyoImazu: still, growing the overall twiki user base is needed, right?
[3:43pm] PeterThoeny: well, that is always desirable
[3:44pm] HideyoImazu: I feel writing a twiki application is not easy.
[3:44pm] PeterThoeny: and there is some correlation between user base and contributor size
[3:44pm] HideyoImazu: there is not much documentation/book to refer to
[3:44pm] PeterThoeny: yes, docs can be improved
[3:45pm] PeterThoeny: especially cookbooks
[3:45pm] PeterThoeny: also technically we can mprove
[3:45pm] PeterThoeny: for example the recent new %EDITFORMFIELD{}% makes it easy to create custom forms
[3:45pm] HideyoImazu: honestly, it took years to get the basic of "inner to outer, top to bottom" 
variable expansion principle.
[3:46pm] HideyoImazu: for me
[3:46pm] PeterThoeny: you mean to understand this?
[3:46pm] HideyoImazu: yes
[3:47pm] PeterThoeny: i am too much into it, so i miss the basics what new users miss
[3:47pm] HideyoImazu: ah
[3:47pm] HideyoImazu: that's understandable.
[3:48pm] HideyoImazu: there are only a few users in my company (out of thousands of users) who can deal 
with three level indirect variable expansion.
[3:48pm] HideyoImazu: I mean you need to escape inner variable expansion by $percntSOMETHING{...}$percnt
[3:49pm] PeterThoeny: some good tutorial and cookbook on how to get started with twiki apps would be good
[3:49pm] PeterThoeny: some time ago i created a blog on how to create a twiki app
[3:49pm] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Blog/BlogEntry201009x1
[3:49pm]  YaojunFei joined the chat room.
[3:49pm] PeterThoeny: i describe in the wikis for dummies book how to create an app
[3:50pm] PeterThoeny: and the new twiki book by PhilGochenour is also pretty good
[3:50pm] PeterThoeny: "Information System Design Using TWiki"
[3:50pm] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/InformationSystemDesignUsingTWiki
[3:51pm] HideyoImazu: in any case, the current status of how to understand twiki's workng is like when 
I set up DNS in 1991.
[3:51pm] PeterThoeny: here we can help too
[3:51pm] PeterThoeny: two ways:
[3:51pm] HideyoImazu: I had to read through RFCs, man page of BIND, and source code of sendmail.
[3:52pm] PeterThoeny: 1. build up marketplace so that people can use these lego blocks to easily create 
a custom app
[3:53pm] PeterThoeny: 2. create a twiki app generator, where users fill out some forms to define a 
twiki form and specify options, then generate the app with reports and forms
[3:54pm] PeterThoeny: yes, good point on like dns setup
[3:55pm] PeterThoeny: so the app generator could be a good project for a new contributor who likes to be 
challenged
[3:56pm] PeterThoeny: other ideas how to get more people involved?
[3:56pm] PeterThoeny: YaojunFei:  you missed some of the discussions
[3:56pm] PeterThoeny: i'll post the log, please read
[3:57pm] HideyoImazu: write a detailed documentation of how TWiki works
[3:57pm] PeterThoeny: you mean the rendering process?
[3:57pm] HideyoImazu: sort of
[3:58pm] HideyoImazu: it will be like ... TWiki.TWIkiPreferences, Main.TWikiPreferences,, 
Main.FirstLast, ... are read for variable definition ...
[3:59pm] HideyoImazu: the page template is determined and read ...
[3:59pm] HideyoImazu: variables expanded ...
[3:59pm] HideyoImazu: TML is converted into HTML ...
[3:59pm] PeterThoeny: preferences eval order is documented, template also, but it is buried on the docs
[4:00pm] HideyoImazu: it's possible to get those things if you take time
[4:00pm] HideyoImazu: even now
[4:00pm]  YaojunFei left the chat room. (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
[4:00pm] PeterThoeny: so i think a high level overview on page rendering is needed that explains what 
you said, and points to detailed docs
[4:00pm] HideyoImazu: but there should be a way to make it easier
[4:01pm]  YaojunFei joined the chat room.
[4:02pm] PeterThoeny: time check: +62 min
[4:02pm] PeterThoeny: 5 more min?
[4:02pm] HideyoImazu: ok
[4:03pm] PeterThoeny: so how about a new PageRenderingProcess topic?
[4:03pm] HideyoImazu: soulds good
[4:03pm] HideyoImazu: sounds
[4:04pm] PeterThoeny: do you want to take a stab at it?
[4:04pm] HideyoImazu: I will
[4:05pm] PeterThoeny: cool!
[4:05pm] PeterThoeny: i'll help with some details
[4:05pm] PeterThoeny: anything else?
[4:05pm] PeterThoeny: ---++ 5. Miscellaneous
[4:05pm] HideyoImazu: it will definitely be a cooperative work
[4:06pm] PeterThoeny: the wiki way 
[4:06pm] PeterThoeny: i do not have misc stuff to discuss
[4:07pm] HideyoImazu: me either
[4:07pm] PeterThoeny: ok, good discussions
[4:07pm] PeterThoeny: i'll post the logs
[4:07pm] PeterThoeny: thanks HideyoImazu-san and YaojunFei!
[4:07pm] HideyoImazu: ttyl
[4:08pm] YaojunFei: Thanks, bye
[4:13pm]  YaojunFei left the chat room. (Quit: YaojunFei)
[4:16pm]  YaojunFei joined the chat room.
[4:21pm] YaojunFei: It's painful to visit IRC in China
[4:22pm] YaojunFei: Peter, do we have any alternative way to have a twiki release meeting?
[4:22pm] YaojunFei: Like Skype or something else
[4:23pm] PeterThoeny: did you try irc web interface?
[4:24pm] YaojunFei: Yes, I tried. Actually it's OK as long as I visit it via a US VPN account
[4:24pm] PeterThoeny: we looked into skype chat
[4:24pm] PeterThoeny: technically good
[4:24pm] PeterThoeny: but there is one issue:
[4:24pm] YaojunFei: Unfortunately, not sure why, that account doesn't work since yesterday
[4:25pm]  HideyoImazu left the chat room. (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
[4:26pm] PeterThoeny: as far as i know you can't publish a group name or url where people can join 
freely (without an explicit invite)
[4:27pm] YaojunFei: test
[4:27pm] YaojunFei: Yes, that's true
[4:28pm] YaojunFei: Fine, I'll figure out the network issue by myself
[4:32pm]  YaojunFei left the chat room. (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)