Subject: JerusalemMeetingLog2013x05x16.txt
Date: May 16, 2013 4:13:16 PM PDT

[2:56pm] MichaelGulitz joined the chat room.
[2:59pm] HideyoImazu joined the chat room.
[3:00pm] PeterThoeny: hi HideyoImazu-san, guten Abend MichaelGulitz
[3:01pm] MichaelGulitz: Hello Peter
[3:01pm] PeterThoeny: おはようございます
[3:01pm] HideyoImazu: Hi Peter, Hi Michael
[3:01pm] MichaelGulitz: Hi HideyoImazu-san
[3:02pm] HideyoImazu: It's 7 am in Tokyo and I'm in the office.
[3:02pm] PeterThoeny: i am currently at a client site in cupertino near apple hq
[3:02pm] PeterThoeny: wow, early in the office!
[3:02pm] MichaelGulitz: my bed is calling 
[3:02pm] PeterThoeny: what time do you usually go to the office?
[3:03pm] HideyoImazu: 7:30 to 8:00
[3:03pm] PeterThoeny: early
[3:03pm] PeterThoeny: i am a night owl, go to bed late, get up late
[3:04pm] HideyoImazu: my mother is an early bird. I inherited it.
[3:05pm] PeterThoeny: while i was working at wind river we had an employee in germany who was
living in the california time zone
[3:05pm] PeterThoeny: was convenient to work with him
[3:05pm] PeterThoeny: time check: +5 min
[3:05pm] PeterThoeny: shall we start?
[3:05pm] PeterThoeny: minutes at 
http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/JerusalemReleaseMeeting2013x05x16
[3:05pm] PeterThoeny: 1. Feature Requests for Jerusalem Release
[3:05pm] PeterThoeny: 2. Review Urgent and Not So Urgent Bugs
[3:05pm] PeterThoeny: 3. Extensions
[3:05pm] PeterThoeny: 4. Miscellaneous
[3:06pm] PeterThoeny: in misc i'd like to discuss (a) post mortem of server outage, (b) get more
people involved
[3:06pm] PeterThoeny: any other agenda item?
[3:07pm] MichaelGulitz: not from me
[3:07pm] PeterThoeny: ---++ 1. Feature Requests for Jerusalem Release
[3:08pm] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/TWikiFeatureProposals
[3:08pm] PeterThoeny: we only have one to discuss, may be more?
[3:08pm] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/ProtectPredefinedVariables
[3:08pm]  VickiBrown joined the chat room.
[3:08pm] PeterThoeny: Feature Proposal: Protect predefined variables, by HideyoImazu-san
[3:09pm] PeterThoeny: hi VickiBrown
[3:09pm] VickiBrown: hi
[3:09pm] VickiBrown: Protect how?
[3:09pm] PeterThoeny: we just started with feature requests
[3:09pm] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/ProtectPredefinedVariables
[3:09pm] VickiBrown: As in keep them from being accidentally overwritten?
[3:09pm] PeterThoeny: yes
[3:10pm] PeterThoeny: proposed  2013-03-25 but date of commitment was empty
[3:10pm] VickiBrown: Brilliant idea (I accidentally reset %TOPIC% Onc. Great "fun ensued)
[3:10pm] PeterThoeny: i just added it
[3:10pm] PeterThoeny: (the date)
[3:10pm] PeterThoeny: so based on this it is accepted by 7 day feedback period
[3:11pm] HideyoImazu: we briefly chatted about it in a past release meeting.
[3:11pm] PeterThoeny: HideyoImazu:  so you will implement by finalizing them automatically
[3:12pm] HideyoImazu: that's the plan
[3:12pm] PeterThoeny: for flexibility possible define an array of protected variables
[3:12pm] PeterThoeny: that way it is easy to maintain
[3:12pm] VickiBrown: I like the array
[3:12pm] VickiBrown: put it in the .cfg?
[3:13pm] PeterThoeny: that would be even more flexible
[3:13pm] PeterThoeny: the other option was to put in FINALPREFERENCES setting
[3:13pm] PeterThoeny: but i guess hard coding and/or .cfg is better performance wise
[3:14pm] HideyoImazu: agreed
[3:14pm] PeterThoeny: any other proposal?
[3:15pm] PeterThoeny: as soon as the http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/TWikiAppInstaller is ready
we can do a major release
[3:15pm] PeterThoeny: we have many features ready now
[3:15pm] PeterThoeny: HideyoImazu:  you are running trunk at work now?
[3:16pm] PeterThoeny: already in production?
[3:16pm] HideyoImazu: yes
[3:16pm] PeterThoeny: nice
[3:16pm] PeterThoeny: means it is quite stable
[3:16pm] HideyoImazu: yes, it is.
[3:16pm] PeterThoeny: no major issues?
[3:17pm] HideyoImazu: no
[3:17pm] PeterThoeny: did you take a snapshot once, or do you use svn up?
[3:17pm] HideyoImazu: by the end of June, all of 4000 or so webs will migrated to that.
[3:17pm] HideyoImazu: so we will see
[3:17pm] HideyoImazu: I keep syncing with svn
[3:18pm] PeterThoeny: nice!
[3:18pm] PeterThoeny: as you know, develop.twiki.org is auto-updated
[3:18pm] PeterThoeny: from svn trunk
[3:20pm] PeterThoeny: any other feature to discuss? if not let's move on
[3:20pm] PeterThoeny: ---++ 2. Review Urgent and Not So Urgent Bugs
[3:20pm] PeterThoeny: http://develop.twiki.org/~twiki4/cgi-bin/view/Bugs/ReleaseBlocker
[3:20pm] PeterThoeny: i have only one:
[3:20pm] PeterThoeny: http://develop.twiki.org/~twiki4/cgi-bin/view/Bugs/Item7247
[3:20pm] PeterThoeny: Item7247: BulkRegistration causes Insecure dependency error
[3:21pm] PeterThoeny: i never use bulk register
[3:21pm] PeterThoeny: someone needs to debug this
[3:21pm] PeterThoeny: i can't commit
[3:22pm] PeterThoeny: just wanted to highlight
[3:22pm] PeterThoeny: any other bug item?
[3:23pm] PeterThoeny: recent changes:
[3:23pm] PeterThoeny: http://develop.twiki.org/~twiki4/cgi-bin/view/Bugs/WebChanges
[3:23pm] PeterThoeny: if not,
[3:23pm] PeterThoeny: ---++ 3. Extensions
[3:23pm] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Plugins/WebChanges
[3:24pm] HideyoImazu: AutoSectionsPlugin is still evolving
[3:24pm] PeterThoeny: thanks mahiro-san & morgan stanley for contributing this new plugin!
[3:24pm] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Plugins/AutoSectionsPlugin
[3:24pm] PeterThoeny: does this work with wysiwyg?
[3:25pm] HideyoImazu: no
[3:25pm] MichaelGulitz: We already use it in production, nice work!
[3:25pm] HideyoImazu: wow
[3:25pm] HideyoImazu: though not documented yet, the latest version in svn has the stealth mode.
[3:26pm] PeterThoeny: stealth mode?
[3:26pm] HideyoImazu: the edit link is hidden normally but shows up when you mouse over.
[3:26pm] PeterThoeny: nice!
[3:26pm] HideyoImazu: you can turn it on by setting AUTOSECTIONS_STEALTHMODE  on
[3:27pm] PeterThoeny: any plan to support wysiwyg (based on user preference) ?
[3:27pm] HideyoImazu: no concrete plan yet.
[3:28pm] HideyoImazu: depends on the users' feedback in my company
[3:28pm] PeterThoeny: personally i would not use this, but i think it would be helpful for twiki as
a product
[3:28pm] PeterThoeny: this feature could go into the production release
[3:29pm] PeterThoeny: is there an easy way to turn auto sections off per topic?
[3:29pm] HideyoImazu: yes
[3:29pm] PeterThoeny: oic
[3:29pm] PeterThoeny:   * Set AUTOSECTIONS = off
[3:29pm] HideyoImazu: setting AUTOSECTIONS off
[3:30pm] PeterThoeny: in this case, how about using the same setting for stealth?
[3:30pm] PeterThoeny:   * Set AUTOSECTIONS = on
[3:30pm] PeterThoeny:   * Set AUTOSECTIONS = stealth
[3:30pm] PeterThoeny:   * Set AUTOSECTIONS = off
[3:31pm] PeterThoeny: or may be
[3:31pm] PeterThoeny:   * Set AUTOSECTIONS = hover
[3:31pm] PeterThoeny: instead of stalth
[3:31pm] PeterThoeny: "stealth"
[3:31pm] HideyoImazu: that might be better
[3:31pm] HideyoImazu: let me think
[3:31pm] VickiBrown:  HideyoImazu - how does this differ from existing Section Edit plugin?
[3:32pm] PeterThoeny: that way we can define a preferencesplugin form field
[3:32pm] PeterThoeny: with pick list for AUTOSECTIONS
[3:32pm] HideyoImazu: AutoSectionsPlugin know about MultiEditPlugin
[3:33pm] HideyoImazu: and if AutoSectionsPllugin sees <section> ... </section>, it suppresses 
itself.
[3:33pm] VickiBrown: what about SectionalEditPlugin?
[3:33pm] VickiBrown: same?
[3:33pm] HideyoImazu: MultiEditPlugin sees <section> ... </section> entered explicitly.
[3:34pm] HideyoImazu: while AutoSectionsPlugin recognizes ----++ ---+++
[3:34pm] HideyoImazu: etc.
[3:34pm] VickiBrown: ah. Understood.
[3:34pm] VickiBrown: Thanks
[3:34pm] VickiBrown: (better)
[3:34pm] HideyoImazu: you don't enter something special for AutoSectionsPlugin
[3:34pm] VickiBrown: got it. Very good
[3:34pm] VickiBrown: more like Wikipedia
[3:34pm] HideyoImazu: but better
[3:35pm] HideyoImazu: because AutoSectionsPlugin makes an edit area in-place
[3:35pm] HideyoImazu: in an Ajax manner
[3:36pm] PeterThoeny: yes, implicit action is much better
[3:36pm] HideyoImazu: while MultiEditPlugin and wikipedia section edit leads to an edit page having 
the section.
[3:36pm] HideyoImazu: you cannot see the other parts of the page while editing.
[3:37pm] PeterThoeny: seeing context is very good
[3:38pm] HideyoImazu: when you make a small change to a long topic, it's extremely handy
[3:40pm] PeterThoeny: ok, lets move on
[3:40pm] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Plugins/PublishWebPlugin
[3:40pm] PeterThoeny: i made small enhancement: better visual clue what gets published
[3:40pm] PeterThoeny: in the plugin topic it is indicated for illustration for a bullet list: green
dotted line
[3:41pm] PeterThoeny: a number of other plugins have been updated in last 3 weeks
[3:41pm] PeterThoeny: anyone you'd like to discuss?
[3:42pm] PeterThoeny: if not,
[3:42pm] PeterThoeny: ---++ 4. Miscellaneous
[3:43pm] PeterThoeny: 4.1. Post mortem of twiki.org outage
[3:43pm] PeterThoeny: last wed night california time twiki.org failed to respind
[3:43pm] PeterThoeny: "respond"
[3:43pm] PeterThoeny: i was logged in as root at that time
[3:43pm] PeterThoeny: and had a tail on twiki log
[3:44pm] PeterThoeny: high load by a chinese ip
[3:44pm] PeterThoeny: first i thought that was the cause
[3:44pm] PeterThoeny: but then i found out that the root file system was read only, and no system
command except ls worked
[3:44pm] PeterThoeny: iso had a raid failure
[3:45pm] PeterThoeny: "isp"
[3:45pm] PeterThoeny: they first said 50/50 change to have server back by the time of our release
meeting last week
[3:45pm] PeterThoeny: did not happen
[3:45pm] PeterThoeny: we have automated backup on separate drive
[3:46pm] PeterThoeny: but i did not have access to it until sunday
[3:46pm] PeterThoeny: on sunday i got a new vm back, but not enough disk space
[3:46pm] PeterThoeny: on monday finally i had a usable system
[3:46pm] PeterThoeny: wet live on monday night
[3:46pm] PeterThoeny: took some time to reinstall dependencies
[3:47pm] PeterThoeny: iso still has not recovered from raid failure
[3:47pm] PeterThoeny: poor souls who do not have a separate backup
[3:47pm] PeterThoeny: in any case i'd like to move away from this isp
[3:47pm] PeterThoeny: any recommendation?
[3:47pm] PeterThoeny: i consider amazon ec2
[3:48pm] HideyoImazu: you cannot go wrong with ec2
[3:48pm] PeterThoeny: right now i pay $150 per month out of my own pocket for twiki.org hosting
[3:49pm] PeterThoeny: i used the aws cost calculator, a comparable instance would cost $180 per
month
[3:49pm] PeterThoeny: without backup
[3:50pm] PeterThoeny: so total cost is around $200 / mopnth
[3:50pm] PeterThoeny: "month"
[3:50pm] PeterThoeny: i will look around for cheaper hosting
[3:51pm] PeterThoeny: i have not used rackspace hosting, they are good, not sure about pricing
[3:52pm] PeterThoeny: so, no urgency in this, we are back, and with separate automated backup
[3:52pm] PeterThoeny: but to be on save side i think it is better to move
[3:53pm] PeterThoeny: "safe side"
[3:53pm] PeterThoeny: that is all i had on outage
[3:53pm] PeterThoeny: i personally lost a week of open source work
[3:53pm] PeterThoeny: i do all twiki dev on thoeny.org, which is hosted in the same vm
[3:53pm] HideyoImazu: that might be a big opportunity cost
[3:53pm] VickiBrown:  We know the feeling (Rich & I). Hardware outages hurt
[3:55pm] PeterThoeny: time check: +55 min
[3:56pm] PeterThoeny: i have one more:
[3:56pm] PeterThoeny: 4.2. get more developer involved
[3:56pm] PeterThoeny: maybe we can table this for next time
[3:56pm] PeterThoeny: think about ways to get more people involved for dev & advocacy
[3:57pm] PeterThoeny: we changed the meeting time, which should help
[3:58pm] PeterThoeny: we have a "Getting Involved!" button on the twiki.org page, leading to: 
[3:58pm] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/GettingInvolved
[3:59pm] PeterThoeny: (i have a hard stop at +60 min)
[4:02pm] PeterThoeny: ok, let's close the meeting
[4:02pm] PeterThoeny: i'll post the logs
[4:02pm] PeterThoeny: thanks HideyoImazu-san, MichaelGulitz, VickiBrown!
[4:02pm] VickiBrown: bye; thanks
[4:02pm] MichaelGulitz: bye everyone
[4:02pm] VickiBrown left the chat room.
[4:02pm] MahiroAndo joined the chat room.
[4:03pm] HideyoImazu left the chat room. (Quit: Page closed)
[4:03pm] MahiroAndo: hi everyone
[4:04pm] MichaelGulitz: hi. the meeting has just been finished
[4:06pm] MahiroAndo: oh looks like I calculated the meeting time incorrectly.. never mind
[4:06pm] PeterThoeny: hi MahiroAndo-san, yes, see you next time!
[4:07pm] MichaelGulitz: bye
[4:07pm] MichaelGulitz left the chat room. (Quit: Verlassend)
[4:07pm] PeterThoeny: thanks for contributing the AutoSectionsPlugin!
[4:07pm] MahiroAndo: yes, see you!
[4:07pm] MahiroAndo: you're welcome. that's my pleasure
[4:07pm] PeterThoeny: we discussed it, read the logs once i post it
[4:07pm] MahiroAndo: yes, I will
[4:08pm] MahiroAndo: ttyl
[4:08pm] MahiroAndo left the chat room.