Date: January 18, 2013 7:20:26 AM GMT+01:00
Subject: JerusalemMeetingLog2013x01x18.txt

[06:00am] PeterThoeny: hi HideyoImazu-san
[06:01am] HideyoImazu: Hi Peter
[06:01am] HideyoImazu: Where are you now?
[06:01am]  YaojunFei joined the chat room.
[06:01am] PeterThoeny: still in munich
[06:02am] PeterThoeny: 6 am
[06:02am] PeterThoeny: it was snowing yesterday the whole day
[06:02am] PeterThoeny: hi YaojunFei
[06:02am] YaojunFei: Hi, Peter.
[06:02am] YaojunFei: Hi, Imazu San.
[06:02am]  MahiroAndo joined the chat room.
[06:02am] HideyoImazu: hi Yaojun
[06:02am] MahiroAndo: Hi everyone
[06:03am] PeterThoeny: hi MahiroAndo-san
[06:03am] MahiroAndo: Hi Peter
[06:03am] YaojunFei: Good afternoon, Mahiro.
[06:03am] PeterThoeny: munich is too cold
[06:03am] MahiroAndo: Hi Fei
[06:03am] PeterThoeny: but i took a double layer ski jacket and a hat along, so i am ok
[06:04am] PeterThoeny: -2 in daytime, -6 at night
[06:05am] HideyoImazu: today, tokyo is around 5 in daytime
[06:05am] HideyoImazu: -3 or so tomorrow morning
[06:05am] PeterThoeny: that is cold too
[06:05am] HideyoImazu: maybe the cold day in this winter so far.
[06:05am] PeterThoeny: i saw pictues of snow in tokyo a few days ago
[06:06am] PeterThoeny: unusual
[06:06am] HideyoImazu: right
[06:06am] HideyoImazu: biggest snowfall in the past 17 years or so
[06:06am] PeterThoeny: oh
[06:07am] HideyoImazu: snow fall in tokyo is only once a twice a year.
[06:07am] HideyoImazu: so not a heavy snow in the standard of snowy places
[06:07am] PeterThoeny: tokyo is pretty flat though, not many places where kids can go sledding
[06:08am] HideyoImazu: true
[06:08am] PeterThoeny: time check: =8 min
[06:08am] PeterThoeny: shall we start?
[06:08am] HideyoImazu: at least in the campus of tokyo institute of technology, there were some
skiers
[06:08am] HideyoImazu: let's start
[06:08am] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/JerusalemReleaseMeeting2013x01x18
[06:09am] PeterThoeny: proposed agenda:
[06:09am] PeterThoeny: 1. Feature Requests for Jerusalem Release
[06:09am] PeterThoeny: 2. Review Urgent and Not So Urgent Bugs
[06:09am] PeterThoeny: 3. Extensions
[06:09am] PeterThoeny: 4. Miscellaneous
[06:09am] PeterThoeny: ok?
[06:09am] HideyoImazu: ok
[06:09am] PeterThoeny: ---++ 1. Feature Requests for Jerusalem Release
[06:09am] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/TWikiFeatureProposals
[06:10am] PeterThoeny: not too much activity in last 2 weeks
[06:10am] PeterThoeny: may be we should talk about real time notify
[06:10am] HideyoImazu: sure
[06:10am] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/RealTimeNotificationByMailerContrib
[06:10am] PeterThoeny: Feature Proposal: Real-time notification by MailerContrib, by HideyoImazu-san
[06:11am] PeterThoeny: we had some discussion
[06:11am] PeterThoeny: it looks like watch feature and real time notify as needed by HideyoImazu-san 
is different
[06:12am] PeterThoeny: so implement separately
[06:12am] HideyoImazu: that seems reasoable
[06:13am] HideyoImazu: and it would be easier to discuss and think about the details over an 
implementation
[06:13am] HideyoImazu: rather than continuing discussion without concrete implementation
[06:14am] PeterThoeny: since the real time notify is needed by ms and you are committed to implement 
it, it can be done either by enhancing the existing mailercontrib (as proposed); it could also be a 
separate plugin
[06:14am] PeterThoeny: i am ok if existing mailercontrb is enhanced
[06:14am] PeterThoeny: make sure to separate out docs for users and admins
[06:15am] HideyoImazu: to tell you the truth, i've been using a plug-in doing real time
notification
[06:15am] HideyoImazu: which is separated from mailercontrib
[06:15am] PeterThoeny: ah, and it co-exists with mailercontrib?
[06:15am] HideyoImazu: yes
[06:16am] HideyoImazu: but it seems to be better for it to be part of mailercontrib
[06:16am] PeterThoeny: oic
[06:16am] PeterThoeny: ok
[06:16am] HideyoImazu: so let me try
[06:16am] HideyoImazu: if it's bad, we can rethink then
[06:17am] PeterThoeny: ok, sounds reasonable
[06:17am] HideyoImazu: i'll write that background in the proposal for informational purposes
[06:17am] PeterThoeny: for admin docs, possibly hide in a twisty as we have started for other
extensions
[06:17am] HideyoImazu: sure
[06:18am] PeterThoeny: so it looks like consensus reached
[06:18am] HideyoImazu: cool
[06:18am] PeterThoeny: or if you like we can vote here
[06:18am] HideyoImazu: i don't think we need a vote here
[06:19am] PeterThoeny: agreed
[06:19am] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/EngineCLIRequestMethod
[06:20am] PeterThoeny: Feature Proposal: Engine::CLI to set request method
[06:20am] PeterThoeny: by HideyoImazu-san
[06:20am] PeterThoeny: proposed way over 7 days ago
[06:20am] PeterThoeny: so technically accepted after 7 days
[06:21am] HideyoImazu: any question or concern or anything?
[06:21am] PeterThoeny: no
[06:21am] PeterThoeny: no xsrf issue due to cli nature
[06:21am] PeterThoeny: so looks all good
[06:21am] HideyoImazu: cool
[06:22am] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/DeleteToTrashSubweb
[06:22am] PeterThoeny: Feature Proposal: Delete to Trash subweb
[06:22am] PeterThoeny: by HideyoImazu
[06:23am] PeterThoeny: this is still "under investigation"
[06:23am] PeterThoeny: looks also like accepted by 7 days
[06:23am] PeterThoeny: even though proposed longer time ago
[06:23am] HideyoImazu: I think we reached consensus too
[06:24am] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/WebSpecificWIKIWEBMASTER
[06:24am] PeterThoeny: Feature Proposal: Web specific WIKIWEBMASTER
[06:24am] PeterThoeny: by HideyoImazu-san
[06:25am] PeterThoeny: same here, status "under investigation" and over 7 days, so accepted by 7
days rule
[06:25am] HideyoImazu: ok
[06:25am] HideyoImazu: as you can see, it's already implemented
[06:26am] PeterThoeny:
[06:26am] PeterThoeny: so make sure the status is correct
[06:26am] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/WebSpecificWorkingDir
[06:26am] PeterThoeny: Feature Proposal: Web specific working dir
[06:26am] PeterThoeny: by HideyoImazu-san
[06:27am] HideyoImazu: i've corrected the status
[06:27am] PeterThoeny: ok
[06:27am] PeterThoeny: let me re-read Web specific working dir
[06:29am] HideyoImazu: i'm slightly wrong saying "there is no plug-in handler for web move"
[06:30am] HideyoImazu: afterRenameHandler() is kicked after web move, I understand
[06:30am] PeterThoeny: yes
[06:31am] PeterThoeny:  TWiki::Func::getWorkArea so far points to the existing work area
[06:32am] PeterThoeny: i am concerned that if adding a parameter, the workarea is now located at
a different location
[06:32am] PeterThoeny: mainly concerned about confusion for plugin authors
[06:34am] HideyoImazu: existing plug-ins are not affected
[06:34am] PeterThoeny: withou reading the docs, as a new plugin author would expect
( 'FooBarPlugin', 'Main' ) parameters to be at $TWiki::cfg{PubDir}/$web/working/FooPlugin/Main
[06:34am] HideyoImazu: assuming they don't hand an extra (and ignored) 2nd argument togetWorkArea()
[06:35am] PeterThoeny: or at $TWiki::cfg{PubDir}/$web/working/FooPlugin/_webs/Main or the like
[06:37am] HideyoImazu: then, shall we introduce another function e.g. TWiki::Func::getWebWorkArea() ?
[06:38am] PeterThoeny: what if parameters ( 'FooBarPlugin', 'Someweb/Sub1/Sub2' ) is specified?
[06:39am] HideyoImazu: $pubDir/$web/work_area/Someweb/Sub1/Sub2 would be returned
[06:39am] HideyoImazu: no
[06:39am] PeterThoeny: historically, before we had TWiki::Func::getWorkArea, plugin stored their
own data somewhere below pub, typically below TWiki/FooBarPlugin
[06:39am] HideyoImazu: $pubDir/Someweb/Sub1/Sub2/work_area/FooBarPlugin would be returned
[06:41am] PeterThoeny: wow, so plugin work data is spread all over the place
[06:41am] PeterThoeny: in tagmeplugin case, how would you get the tag cloud of a specific user?
[06:41am] HideyoImazu: as mentioned in the proposal page, it's up to a plug-in to do
getWorkArea('FooBarPlugin', 'Someweb') or getWorkArea('FooBarPlugin', 'Someweb/Sub1/Sub2')
[06:42am] PeterThoeny: the default profile page shows the tag cloud of the user
[06:43am] HideyoImazu: $pubDir/Someweb/work_area/TagMePlugin/ will have tag data files for Someweb
and its subwebs.
[06:43am] PeterThoeny: currently it is reading all files in the working area, which is pretty quick
[06:45am] HideyoImazu: what kind of processing is a concern, Peter?
[06:46am] PeterThoeny: 1. confusing to plugin authors
[06:46am] PeterThoeny: 2. complicates implementation
[06:47am] PeterThoeny: 3. potentially performance bottleneck if many webs are used and all webs
need to be traversed
[06:47am] PeterThoeny: i have no answer how to address the need for multi site, but these are my
concerns
[06:48am] HideyoImazu: ok. let me write my thoughts on those on the proposal topic
[06:48am] PeterThoeny: ok
[06:49am] PeterThoeny: i think this needs some more brain cycles
[06:49am] HideyoImazu: sure
[06:50am] PeterThoeny: we have other older feature proposals lingering in 'under investigation'
state
[06:50am] PeterThoeny: may be for another time
[06:50am] PeterThoeny: to look at
[06:50am] PeterThoeny: any other proposal you'd like to discuss?
[06:51am] HideyoImazu: no
[06:51am] PeterThoeny: ---++ 2. Review Urgent and Not So Urgent Bugs
[06:51am] PeterThoeny: http://develop.twiki.org/~twiki4/cgi-bin/view/Bugs/ReleaseBlocker
[06:51am] PeterThoeny: i have nothing here
[06:51am] HideyoImazu: same here
[06:52am] PeterThoeny: ---++ 3. Extensions
[06:52am] PeterThoeny: twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/ExtensionDocumentationMadeEndUserFriendly
[06:53am] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/ExtensionDocumentationMadeEndUserFriendly
[06:53am] PeterThoeny: Feature Proposal: Extension documentation to be made end user friendly
[06:53am] PeterThoeny: proposed by HideyoImazu-san
[06:53am] PeterThoeny: status is set to 'implement as extension' because that is what it is
[06:54am] PeterThoeny: i started with a few extensions
[06:54am] HideyoImazu: sure
[06:54am] PeterThoeny: see for example
[06:54am] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Plugins/SlideShowPlugin
[06:55am] PeterThoeny: in addition to plugin settings and install instructions, i also added a
twisty for change history
[06:55am] PeterThoeny: since it is not possible to add a twisty for multiple table rows, i took the
table apart into three tables
[06:56am] PeterThoeny: but made them the same column width, so that it looks like one table
[06:56am] PeterThoeny: just a small implementation detail
[06:56am] PeterThoeny: feel free to use for your own extensions
[06:57am] PeterThoeny: any extension you'd like to discuss?
[06:57am] HideyoImazu: no
[06:58am] PeterThoeny: ---++ 4. Miscellaneous
[06:58am] PeterThoeny: anything?
[06:58am] HideyoImazu: no
[06:58am] PeterThoeny: thanks for the feedback on the presentation, HideyoImazu-san
[06:59am] PeterThoeny: it went well
[06:59am] PeterThoeny: it was for senior execs of siemens
[06:59am] PeterThoeny: siemens has 250k employees
[06:59am] PeterThoeny: big company
[07:00am] HideyoImazu: they are dealing with some heavy duty stuff, right?
[07:00am] PeterThoeny: they have a cto office that sets standards
[07:00am] PeterThoeny: yes, lots of products in various fields
[07:00am] HideyoImazu: such as power generator plant
[07:01am] PeterThoeny: yes and lots of impressive stuff
[07:02am] HideyoImazu: i guess it's crucial for them to have a good documentation infrastructure
for those stuff.
[07:02am] PeterThoeny: they have a new product: particle pysics machine to zap brain tumors
[07:02am] HideyoImazu: accurate up-to-the-minute documentation is necessary
[07:02am] PeterThoeny: that product is a 7 story building of soccer field size
[07:03am] PeterThoeny: think of mini-large hadron collider tailored for health care
[07:03am] HideyoImazu: wow
[07:03am] PeterThoeny: so they deal with huge complexity
[07:04am] PeterThoeny: interestingly, they can address this complexity with a lean manufacturing
approach
[07:04am] PeterThoeny: it's amazing stuff
[07:04am] PeterThoeny: german precision
[07:05am] HideyoImazu: simplicity and flexibility of TWiki should be valuable for them
[07:05am] PeterThoeny: basic idea is to apply factory production methodologies to r&d
[07:05am] PeterThoeny: agreed
[07:05am] PeterThoeny: but it is difficult to convince them
[07:06am] HideyoImazu: i can imagine
[07:06am] PeterThoeny: the cto office sets the proposed standard, then it is up to biz units to
implement
[07:07am] PeterThoeny: my presentation is tailored to what they already do (lean manufacturing) and
what can come next
[07:07am] HideyoImazu: in Morgan Stanley, TWiki spread in a very grass-roots way
[07:07am] PeterThoeny: for this the work i did for wave systems was very suitable to present
[07:08am] PeterThoeny: yes, they also realized that grassroots is of big value
[07:08am] PeterThoeny: time check: +68 min
[07:09am] HideyoImazu: if a seed is right, it blossoms and proliferate
[07:09am] PeterThoeny: i like that
[07:10am] HideyoImazu: i truly believe that based on my 5+ year experience of TWiki in Morgan
Stanley
[07:10am] HideyoImazu: users start using it in a way you didn't anticipate
[07:11am] PeterThoeny: btw, here is an article about particle therapy:
[07:11am] PeterThoeny: http://www.theengineer.co.uk/in-depth/analysis/particle-therapy-comes-of-age/1006536.article
[07:12am] PeterThoeny: yes, that is the power of a structured wiki:  flexible so that users do
stuff you would never anticipate
[07:14am] PeterThoeny: shall we close the meeting?
[07:14am] HideyoImazu: sure
[07:14am] PeterThoeny: ok, nice chatting with you!
[07:14am] PeterThoeny: i'll post the logs and update the minutes
[07:14am] PeterThoeny: ttyl
[07:15am] HideyoImazu: ttyl
[07:15am]  HideyoImazu left the chat room. (Quit: Page closed)
[07:15am] MahiroAndo: thanks. bye
[07:15am]  MahiroAndo left the chat room.
[07:15am] YaojunFei: Bye, Peter
[07:15am]  YaojunFei left the chat room. (Quit: YaojunFei)