Date: September 13, 2012 10:26:12 PM PDT
Subject: JerusalemMeetingLog2012x09x14.txt

[9:01pm]  Fei joined the chat room.
[9:01pm] PeterThoeny: hi Fei, HideyoImazu, MahiroAndo, timothe
[9:02pm] MahiroAndo: Hi Peter
[9:02pm] HideyoImazu: hi Peter
[9:02pm] PeterThoeny: i am just back, rushed home by bicycle
[9:03pm] timothe: At least you're awake.
[9:03pm] Fei: Hi Peter, this is Fei. Nice to see you again.
[9:03pm]  Fei is now known as YaojunFei.
[9:04pm] PeterThoeny: nice meeting you again
[9:04pm] PeterThoeny: we have new today: MahiroAndo
[9:04pm] PeterThoeny: welcome timothe, we have seen you once in a while at the meetings
[9:05pm] MahiroAndo: yes, thanks for all the welcome. I'm excited to get involved in the community:-)
[9:06pm] timothe: You've picked a difficult time; midnight here
[9:06pm] PeterThoeny: and welcome YaojunFei and MahiroAndo to the twiki community! both of you got
subversion access yesterday
[9:06pm] PeterThoeny: ah, us east coast
[9:06pm] YaojunFei: Thank you, I'm very happy to be involved in this opensource community
[9:07pm] PeterThoeny: yes, it's impossible to find a time that is good for us east and west, europe and asia
[9:07pm] PeterThoeny: since we have som new folks, could everybody quickly state where you work, what
interest you have/work on twiki
[9:08pm] PeterThoeny: in the mean time i post the agenda
[9:08pm] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/JerusalemReleaseMeeting2012x09x14
[9:08pm] PeterThoeny: 1. Feature Requests for Jerusalem Release
[9:08pm] PeterThoeny: 2. Review Urgent and Not So Urgent Bugs
[9:08pm] PeterThoeny: 3. Miscellaneous
[9:08pm] HideyoImazu: Mahiro, Yaojun, and me HideyoImazu are working on TWiki in Morgan Stanley
[9:09pm] PeterThoeny: yaojun is in shanghai, a city i'd like to visit
[9:09pm] YaojunFei: look forward to seeing you here
[9:09pm] PeterThoeny: you mahiro-san, are you in tokyo?
[9:09pm] MahiroAndo: I'm sitting right next to Imazu-san in the tokyo office
[9:09pm] timothe: I currently use twiki for a family project.  I've contributed various plugins, bug fixes.
[9:09pm] PeterThoeny: ok
[9:10pm] PeterThoeny: yes, than you timothe, you supplied many patches that fix holes in twiki
[9:10pm] PeterThoeny: not sure if george is joining today
[9:11pm] PeterThoeny: as for agenda, i did not put the upcoming twiki-5.1.2 release on the agenda since
we decided on schedule last time
[9:12pm] PeterThoeny: > Decided to build Oct 6 & 7
[9:12pm] PeterThoeny: > Target release date 2012-10-08
[9:13pm] PeterThoeny: any other items to take on agenda besides 1...3?
[9:13pm] timothe: At the moment, I'm about ready to release the background tasking framework ,which I
assume has been accepted by the 7day rule.  Just making some IPV6 tweaks.
[9:13pm] PeterThoeny: looking forward to it timothe, let's cover it
[9:13pm] PeterThoeny: ---++ 1. Feature Requests for Jerusalem Release
[9:14pm] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/TWikiFeatureProposals
[9:14pm] timothe: That's what's keeping me awake tonight (literally)
[9:14pm] timothe: well, sort of awake.
[9:14pm] timothe: my day started at 0200 (yesterday)
[9:15pm] YaojunFei:
[9:15pm] timothe:
[9:15pm] PeterThoeny: we don't have any in "Feature Proposals Ready For Release Meeting" state
[9:16pm] HideyoImazu: I pposted one at the last minute
[9:16pm] timothe: I don't do bureaucracy - need help with that.  But see
http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/TasksFramework
[9:17pm] PeterThoeny: oh, i just opened a different proposal, http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/ConfigureSupportForTaskFramework
[9:17pm] timothe: That went in last year - it was a small patch.  This is what it enabled.
[9:18pm] PeterThoeny: ok, uderstand now
[9:18pm] PeterThoeny: i actually totally missed TasksFramework, sorry
[9:19pm] PeterThoeny: please put the CommittedDeveloper and DateOfCommitment fields
[9:19pm] PeterThoeny: just a formality
[9:19pm] PeterThoeny: but that way the proposal shows up in the review report
[9:19pm] PeterThoeny: it's great that you work on a task framework
[9:20pm] PeterThoeny: scheduled tasks is a missing feature, useful one to automate tasks
[9:20pm] timothe: Committed means "crazy".  I started this over a year ago, but haven't had time to get
it checked-in.  See status, which I posed on 31-Aug.
[9:22pm] PeterThoeny: it's great that you plan for time scheduled and event triggered tasks
[9:23pm] HideyoImazu: I have a cron job to move topics from one web to another. I hope that cron job can
be replaced by the framework.
[9:23pm] PeterThoeny: so, this is core code and a plugin
[9:23pm] PeterThoeny: so, idea is to add to core?
[9:24pm] timothe: It all works - alpha quality - needs some testers, somone to consolidate docs (which
are in/extractable from source) and with the checkin mechanics.
[9:24pm] timothe: It would be best to include in core since that way plugins can count on it & we can
finally get to a unified way of handing cleanup and other off-line processing.
[9:25pm] timothe: In some respects, it's cron-like.  But really it's a persistent twki environment that
doesn't (to a first approximation) run under a webserver, but it's own detached daemon.
[9:26pm] PeterThoeny: so as part of install you need to add a cron that runs as a tick?
[9:27pm] timothe: Also, it's hard to package otherwise - the current kit is a plugin/contrib/something else.
[9:27pm] PeterThoeny: i mean, as a tick tock for your task framework?
[9:27pm] timothe: No, not really.  You include it in system startup.  It schedules by itself.  It replaces
the tick_twiki, er, 'kludge'
[9:27pm] timothe: (sorry peter)
[9:28pm] PeterThoeny:
[9:28pm] PeterThoeny: timothe:  you have svn access
[9:28pm] timothe: Look at the topic - you can see it idling on my develoipment system.
[9:28pm] PeterThoeny: you can check in yourself
[9:28pm] PeterThoeny: i can't remember though if you have access for core and plugins, or only plugins
[9:29pm] timothe: No clue, I've never directly checked anything in.  Too much bureaucracy for something
that happens rarely.  But I do want to move development for this into svn.
[9:30pm] timothe: Assuming, of course, that twki wants to take this...
[9:30pm] PeterThoeny: looks good to me
[9:30pm] timothe: Anyhow, I assume this is "feature proposals" part of your agenda, not a hijacking.
[9:30pm] PeterThoeny: although we need to brings docs up to twiki standard
[9:31pm] PeterThoeny: no, the release meeting _is_ here to discuss proposals
[9:32pm] timothe: Help is welcome.  You'll see that there is a lot of documentation, but it needs to be
unified.  I really haven't had time, but with a little help I can stop withholding the technology...
[9:32pm] PeterThoeny: since you posted the proposal on 2012-08-31 and are commited to implement i filled
out the fields accordingly
[9:33pm] PeterThoeny: i have seen your code before and trust your focus on quality
[9:34pm] PeterThoeny: so i fully support the proposal
[9:34pm] PeterThoeny: let's try and make it easy for all to get it in
[9:34pm] PeterThoeny: but first, any feedback by others on proposal?
[9:34pm] timothe: Fine,  Maybe this weekend you can help with the checkin item and mechanics.  I call
this "alpha quality".  It's stable, but hasn't had broad exposure.  There are undoubtedly one or two bugs.
[9:35pm] PeterThoeny: no problem, bugs can be ironed out
[9:36pm] PeterThoeny: i recommend to create a TWikiTaskFramework topic in the TWiki web that has the docs
[9:36pm] PeterThoeny: i can help out with docs once i understand the details
[9:36pm] timothe: I should also call attention to the packaging support for SELINUX and security for
install that comes for the ride.
[9:36pm] HideyoImazu: I need some time to read through the proposal to say something for sure. but
looks promising.
[9:37pm] PeterThoeny: it looks pretty comprehensive (e.g. "Web-based management (including https:) of
daemon" etc), so there is a lot to document
[9:37pm] timothe: Thanks.  We can work that off-line.  You can see them once it's in SVN.  The 'install'
utility extracts docs from the sources.  But as I say ,currently in random order.
[9:37pm] timothe: There is also a discussion topic over on the fork from a while back where this started.
[9:38pm] PeterThoeny: well, is install utility needed?
[9:38pm] timothe: I can also provide web access to a VM where it currently runs if that helps.  But not
to the general public.
[9:38pm] PeterThoeny: that is currently not offered/supported in twiki
[9:40pm] PeterThoeny: is idea to have an install script in twiki to install twiki and the tasks framework?
[9:41pm] PeterThoeny: it looks like we have some questions on the proposal
[9:42pm] timothe: The install utility handles setting up the init files (sysv init) for system startup,
which can get complicated for multiple twiki environments.  It also addresses a longstanding issue that
any install kit / patch is a nightmare with system permissions.  You'll want to consider packing twiki
itself with the technology... but one step at a time.  Right now it's oriented to installing the...
[9:42pm] PeterThoeny: i suggest we discuss for a few days in the proposal topic
[9:42pm] timothe: ...framework as an add-on (which I hope to avoid), but it should be easy to adapt to
the whoe twiki install.  It;s driven off of MANIFEST, with some extensions.  And yes, its documented
in the sources/examples.
[9:42pm] timothe: Only if e-mail notification of topic changes works
[9:43pm] timothe: (Typing stops, listen mode...)
[9:43pm] PeterThoeny: so just wondering, if we add the dependency on install script, may be better to
offer this as an extension?
[9:44pm] PeterThoeny: the other option is to ship with twiki core, and have it disabled by default,
with install instructions to run the script (one core twiki is up and running)
[9:45pm] PeterThoeny: back to svn, do you intend to check in code, or do you want someone to do that?
[9:45pm] timothe: would rather not be extension since I really want plugins (and core) to use.  Can be
disabled by default as you say, but you'll want to enable once all the silent helpers validated,
contribute & improve.
[9:46pm] PeterThoeny: i tend to agree with shipped with core, disabled
[9:46pm] PeterThoeny: time check: +46 min
[9:46pm] PeterThoeny: 15 min to go
[9:47pm] timothe: I can package up a tarball for you to get it into svn (oinstall has an option for
that).  Once there hopefully I can work from svn....
[9:47pm] timothe: Sorry about the time - but this topic is why I stayed up.  Do others have an opinion,
or haven't had a chance to read?
[9:48pm] PeterThoeny: since we have missed the proposal (missing commit date) i suggest to give the
proposal a few days for feedback
[9:48pm] PeterThoeny: all: please provide feedback
[9:48pm] PeterThoeny: in next few days
[9:48pm] PeterThoeny: then we can accept by 7 days rule
[9:48pm] HideyoImazu: i'll try
[9:49pm] HideyoImazu: do we have a few minutes to discuss
http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/NoInAllPublicWebsOption ?
[9:49pm] timothe: off-line contact for me is litt@acm.org.
[9:49pm] PeterThoeny: yes, lets first finsih timothe's topic
[9:49pm] HideyoImazu: sure
[9:49pm] PeterThoeny: ok, i commit to install on my local twiki
[9:50pm] PeterThoeny: and to checkin if ok
[9:50pm] PeterThoeny: i'll take this offline with timothe
[9:50pm] PeterThoeny: next: NoInAllPublicWebsOption
[9:50pm] HideyoImazu: I suppose it's a no brainer.
[9:51pm] PeterThoeny: yes, no-brainer
[9:51pm] HideyoImazu: very trivial enhancement.
[9:51pm] timothe: NoInAllPublicWebsOpt - I'd rather see a list of what webs ARE public.  This seems too binary.
[9:51pm] PeterThoeny: we can accept by release meeting
[9:51pm] PeterThoeny: others: feedback?
[9:51pm] timothe: E.g. PUBLICWEBS = 'importantweb, goodweb, approvedweb" etc
[9:52pm] HideyoImazu: you can declare a web is public or not on WebPreferences
[9:53pm] PeterThoeny: do you mean the NOSEARCHALL webpreferences setting?
[9:53pm] timothe: OK, so a web has an "is pubic" identifier.  Then what does NOINALLPUBLICWEZBS do?
[9:53pm] HideyoImazu: yes, Peter
[9:54pm] HideyoImazu: timothe, it would eliminate "In all public webs" links
[9:54pm] HideyoImazu: on a site having hundreds or thousands of webs, "in all public webs" link only times out.
[9:55pm] timothe: Sorry, but that doesn't make sense.  If the problem is too many public webs, it's a
management issue.  I'm suggesting that what you want is a global preference that allows a web to opt-in
to being Public, rather than the current "opt-out"
[9:56pm] timothe: Or maybe i'm too sleepy to understand....
[9:56pm] PeterThoeny: timothe:  if an global twiki has 1000 webs a "search all backlinks in all webs" is
not practical
[9:57pm] timothe: Agree.  Question is how to solve.  I'm thinking that a PUBLICWEBS variable that defines
what webs a backlink search scans is the way to go.
[9:57pm] PeterThoeny: by default the NOINALLPUBLICWEZBS is off, so no change in spec
[9:58pm] timothe: Negated features are hard for administrators to understand.
[9:58pm] PeterThoeny: good question
[9:58pm] PeterThoeny: hmm, idea: ability to define clusters of webs
[9:59pm] PeterThoeny: actions are done on whole site or cluster
[9:59pm] timothe: so the 10 webs that you do want to scan should have "I"m public" attributes, or a site
topic could list them.
[9:59pm] timothe: (others: I have a background in enterprise,so im sensitive to this stuff...)
[9:59pm] HideyoImazu: there need to be a way to define a cluster of webs.
[10:00pm] HideyoImazu: so that the clustering works consistently among the constituents.
[10:01pm] timothe: so generalize "public" to a special case of "cluster".  Each web as a "member of" tag
in it's preferences.  We predefind "public" for existing usage.  Seach takes a "cluster" modifier.
[10:01pm] timothe: sorry for tired typos.
[10:01pm] PeterThoeny: good discussions here!
[10:02pm] HideyoImazu: how about continue this discussion on the proposal topic for the sake of our time?
[10:02pm] timothe: Say, WEBGROUPS = "PUBLIC ADMINISTRATORS" preference
[10:02pm] PeterThoeny: agree, lets discuss on proposal topic
[10:03pm] PeterThoeny: time check: +61 min
[10:03pm] PeterThoeny: let's wrap up in a few min
[10:03pm] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/LoggingInGMT
[10:03pm] PeterThoeny: renamed topic, already accepted at last release meeting
[10:03pm] PeterThoeny: any other proposal to cover?
[10:03pm] timothe: I support GMT logging
[10:03pm] HideyoImazu: i don't have any
[10:04pm] PeterThoeny: ok, on to plugins
[10:04pm] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Plugins/ExternalLinkTrackerPlugin
[10:05pm] PeterThoeny: this week i worked on the ExternalLinkTrackerPlugin, released today
[10:05pm] PeterThoeny: adds a %EXLINK{ID}% variable
[10:05pm] PeterThoeny: for external links
[10:05pm] PeterThoeny: has some nice statistics on external links
[10:06pm] PeterThoeny: was a contracting gig
[10:06pm] timothe: what happend ot roolback attachement version?
[10:06pm] PeterThoeny: stalled
[10:06pm] PeterThoeny: no committed developer
[10:07pm] timothe: would be good if someone volunteered.
[10:07pm] PeterThoeny: i did some more plugin fixes in last two weeks, mainly doc enhancements
[10:07pm] PeterThoeny: yes on rollback feature
[10:08pm] PeterThoeny: feel free to grab this feature
[10:08pm] PeterThoeny: MahiroAndo:  and YaojunFei:  a good way to get involved is to pick a small project
listed in the gettinginvolved page
[10:08pm] timothe: should there be a topic for "prioritized needs volunteers" items.  No, you want me to
support integrating tasks with my avail moments.
[10:09pm] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/GettingInvolved
[10:09pm] PeterThoeny: yes, let's first finish up the tasks framework
[10:09pm] PeterThoeny: ---++ 2. Review Urgent and Not So Urgent Bugs
[10:10pm] PeterThoeny: i do not have anything to cover on bugs
[10:10pm] PeterThoeny: anybody?
[10:10pm] PeterThoeny: ---++ 3. Miscellaneous
[10:10pm] PeterThoeny: anything?
[10:10pm] timothe: A while ago you were woking on configure issue I raised, butdid youfinish?  email stopped.
[10:10pm] timothe: this was around field width limitations.
[10:11pm] PeterThoeny: MahiroAndo and YaojunFei:  if you have questions don't hesitate to contact me
[10:11pm] timothe: (or me)
[10:11pm] PeterThoeny: you can reach me at peter09[at]thoeny.org and at peterthoeny on skype
[10:11pm] timothe: I don;'t usually type for an hour.  Sorry about that.
[10:11pm] YaojunFei: yes, sure.
[10:12pm] MahiroAndo: thanks peter. I'll grab some info from docs first
[10:12pm] PeterThoeny: timother, sorry i don't recall
[10:12pm] PeterThoeny: if you ping update the bug topic i see
[10:12pm] PeterThoeny: time check: +72 min
[10:12pm] PeterThoeny: anything before we close?
[10:13pm] HideyoImazu: no
[10:13pm] YaojunFei: no
[10:13pm] PeterThoeny: ok, thanks all!
[10:13pm] PeterThoeny: was a constructive meeting
[10:14pm] HideyoImazu: agreed
[10:14pm] MahiroAndo: thanks to you too. very good to attend the meeting
[10:14pm] YaojunFei: thank you, Peter. Bye, everybody.
[10:14pm] PeterThoeny: ok, i'll post the log and update the minutes
[10:14pm] timothe: bye
[10:14pm] PeterThoeny: thanks all, bye
[10:14pm]  YaojunFei left the chat room. (Quit: Page closed)
[10:15pm]  timothe left the chat room.
[10:15pm]  MahiroAndo left the chat room.
[10:15pm] PeterThoeny: よろしくぅ(^o^)/