Date: August 30, 2012 10:21:57 PM PDT
Subject: JerusalemMeetingLog2012x08x31.txt

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[8:55pm]  ThomasGutzmann joined the chat room.
[8:57pm]  YaojunFei joined the chat room.
[8:58pm]  HideyoImazu joined the chat room.
[8:58pm]  GeorgeTrubisky joined the chat room.
[8:59pm] PeterThoeny: hi GeorgeTrubisky, HideyoImazu, ThomasGutzmann, YaojunFei!
[8:59pm] PeterThoeny: good turnout today
[8:59pm] HideyoImazu: hi Peter
[8:59pm] YaojunFei: Hi, guys.
[8:59pm] GeorgeTrubisky: hi Peter
[9:00pm] PeterThoeny: must be late/early in various places, except for hideyo-san
[9:00pm] HideyoImazu: Yaojun is in Shanghai. So he's fine too.
[9:00pm] YaojunFei: yes, it's a comfortable time for me
[9:01pm] ThomasGutzmann: Good morning from Germany.
[9:01pm] YaojunFei: Good morning
[9:02pm] PeterThoeny: good morning YaojunFei, where are you?
[9:02pm] YaojunFei: I'm in Shanghai.
[9:02pm] PeterThoeny: welcome YaojunFei
[9:03pm] PeterThoeny: i was in china last month
[9:03pm] YaojunFei: Thank you, Peter.
[9:03pm] PeterThoeny: just in guangzhou
[9:03pm] YaojunFei: Oh, really? for a business travel?
[9:03pm] PeterThoeny: mainly pleasure
[9:03pm] PeterThoeny: was in hong kong for two weeks
[9:03pm] PeterThoeny: went to china 2 days, and 2 days in macau
[9:04pm] YaojunFei: Was weather hot that time?
[9:04pm] PeterThoeny: never been in shanghai, would like to go
[9:04pm] PeterThoeny: was hot and humid, but a little less than hkg
[9:04pm] YaojunFei: Shanghai is also a good city, it's worth travelling
[9:05pm] PeterThoeny: and we have ThomasGutzmann from germany (good early mroning)
[9:05pm] PeterThoeny: and GeorgeTrubisky from california like me
[9:05pm] PeterThoeny: nice to see you back george
[9:05pm] GeorgeTrubisky: got your note
[9:05pm] PeterThoeny: yes, i'd like to ride the bullet train
[9:06pm] ThomasGutzmann: I'm new to TWiki, so I will be in a silent role - not fully awake anyway
[9:06pm] PeterThoeny: time check: +6 min
[9:06pm] PeterThoeny: before we start, shall each give a quick intro?
[9:06pm] YaojunFei: This is also my first time joining a twiki release meeting
[9:07pm] PeterThoeny: such as workplace, if using twiki at work, interest in twiki
[9:08pm] HideyoImazu: I'm running a TWiki site having 6000+ webs in Morgan Stanley. Yaojun is my
colleague.
[9:08pm] PeterThoeny: i live in silicon valley, do consulting on twiki and web dev, code for twiki,
and garden the twiki.org twiki
[9:08pm] PeterThoeny: ah, that is the connection
[9:09pm] PeterThoeny: are you a programmer YaojunFei?
[9:09pm] YaojunFei:  I'm in Shanghai (China), and co-work with HideyoImazu. We use twiki in Morgan
Stanley. After work with TWiki with almost one year, I find I like it very much.
[9:09pm] YaojunFei: I was a .net developer before
[9:09pm] PeterThoeny: c# etc
[9:09pm] PeterThoeny: ?
[9:09pm] YaojunFei: yes
[9:09pm] YaojunFei: but now, in most time, I work with Perl
[9:09pm] GeorgeTrubisky: I work at Safeway INC, working as the support engineer for our continuous
integration environment, we are a Java shop
[9:10pm] PeterThoeny: thumbs up to YaojunFei
[9:10pm] YaojunFei: thanks
[9:10pm] PeterThoeny: time check: +10 min
[9:11pm] ThomasGutzmann: Ok, maybe a few short words about me: I'm 40 years in IT, mostly on
databases, worked for large enterprises (as an external), founded a small development company
which goes into 2 2nd generation now. Now I'm developing an Oracle/Java-based web/desktop
application and helpinjg my son rebuilding the mess I left in the infrastructure - including
building a wiki for us and our costumers.
[9:11pm] PeterThoeny: cool, thanks ThomasGutzmann
[9:11pm] PeterThoeny: lets start
[9:11pm] PeterThoeny: agenda at http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/JerusalemReleaseMeeting2012x08x31
[9:11pm] PeterThoeny: 1. Feature Requests for Jerusalem Release
[9:11pm] PeterThoeny: 2. Review Urgent and Not So Urgent Bugs
[9:11pm] PeterThoeny: 3. TWiki-5.1.2 Release Schedule
[9:11pm] PeterThoeny: 4. Miscellaneous
[9:12pm] PeterThoeny: any other topic to add?
[9:12pm] PeterThoeny: ---++ 1. Feature Requests for Jerusalem Release
[9:13pm] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/TWikiFeatureProposals
[9:13pm] PeterThoeny: main activity in lst 2 weeks by hideyo-san
[9:13pm] PeterThoeny: twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/AnchorNamesInNonISO8859Charsets
[9:14pm] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/AnchorNamesInNonISO8859Charsets
[9:14pm] PeterThoeny: Anchor names in non-ISO-8859 charsets to be similar to ISO-8859
[9:14pm] PeterThoeny: by hideyo-san
[9:14pm] PeterThoeny: i added my comment, they have been addressed
[9:15pm] HideyoImazu: I clarified several points given Peter's comment.
[9:15pm] PeterThoeny: yes
[9:15pm] PeterThoeny: i am fine with proposal as is
[9:16pm] PeterThoeny: any feedback from others?
[9:17pm] PeterThoeny: if not we can "agree by release meeting" to accept this proposal before the 7 day rule
[9:17pm] GeorgeTrubisky: no feedback from me
[9:17pm] HideyoImazu: ccool
[9:18pm] PeterThoeny: for those new:
[9:18pm] YaojunFei: good
[9:18pm] PeterThoeny: we have a pretty liberal feature proposal process
[9:18pm] PeterThoeny: i recommend to read:
[9:18pm] PeterThoeny: twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/TWikiReleaseManagementProcess
[9:18pm] YaojunFei: ok, I'll check it out
[9:19pm] PeterThoeny: so, no objection?
[9:19pm] PeterThoeny: if none, it is accepted by release meeting
[9:19pm] ThomasGutzmann: What's the preferred behaviour in this meeting: "void" means "ok"? Or do you
guys expect a real answer?
[9:19pm] PeterThoeny: abstain is ok too
[9:20pm] PeterThoeny: meaning, abstan does not count thumbs up nor thumbs down
[9:20pm] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/LoggingTimeZoneOption
[9:21pm] PeterThoeny: Logging time zone option
[9:21pm] PeterThoeny: by HideyoImazu
[9:22pm] HideyoImazu: any question, concern, feedback?
[9:22pm] ThomasGutzmann: GMT is nearer to the standard, but local time zones can make them more
readibel, so I think that option is fine.
[9:22pm] PeterThoeny: hideyo-san and i came to consensus to swtch logging from server time to gmt
[9:23pm] GeorgeTrubisky: looks good
[9:23pm] PeterThoeny: so only very minor issue is that hours will be off by a few hours on twiki
upgrade (so side effects expected)
[9:23pm] GeorgeTrubisky: ?
[9:23pm] PeterThoeny: looks also like an "agree by release meeting"
[9:24pm] HideyoImazu: ok
[9:24pm] GeorgeTrubisky: why will hours be off on twiki upgrade?
[9:24pm] PeterThoeny: just the logging
[9:25pm] PeterThoeny: what is now logged as 21:24 in california will be logged as 04:00 the next
day after upgrade
[9:25pm] PeterThoeny: so, only statistics might be impacted one time
[9:26pm] PeterThoeny: so no issue at all
[9:26pm] GeorgeTrubisky: ah, I understand
[9:26pm] GeorgeTrubisky: ok
[9:26pm] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/IncludeFromDifferentCharsetSite
[9:26pm] PeterThoeny: INCLUDE not to corrupt characters when reading from a web site employing a
different charset
[9:26pm] PeterThoeny: proposal by HideyoImazu
[9:28pm] PeterThoeny: i added a note asking to look at the bigger picture
[9:29pm] PeterThoeny: but it looks like it is mainly meant for including other website content, not
inclusing another topic
[9:29pm] HideyoImazu: correct.
[9:29pm] ThomasGutzmann: What do you mean by "include"?
[9:29pm] HideyoImazu: another topic on the same site shares the same charset.
[9:29pm] PeterThoeny: so in this case my comment was a different issue and can be ignored for this proposal
[9:30pm] HideyoImazu: hence character corruption cannot occur.
[9:30pm]  MichaelGulitz joined the chat room.
[9:30pm] PeterThoeny: good early morning MichaelGulitz
[9:30pm] PeterThoeny: welcome to the release meeting
[9:30pm] PeterThoeny: we are on feature proposals
[9:30pm] PeterThoeny: currently at http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/IncludeFromDifferentCharsetSite
[9:31pm] MichaelGulitz: Hello! I'm a bit late ...
[9:31pm] PeterThoeny: HideyoImazu:  so idea is to read the charset meta data and do the conversion on the
fly if needed?
[9:31pm] HideyoImazu: that's correct.
[9:32pm] PeterThoeny: do you think that should be enabled with a configure flag, or check done all the time?
[9:32pm] PeterThoeny: any performance impact?
[9:33pm] HideyoImazu: there should be minimal perforrmance impact.
[9:34pm] HideyoImazu: and Encode::decode() and Encode::encode() are written in C and efficient enough.
[9:34pm] PeterThoeny: flag or no flag?
[9:34pm] HideyoImazu: and conversion happens only when necessary
[9:34pm] HideyoImazu: no flag, I'd propose.
[9:34pm] PeterThoeny: ok
[9:35pm] PeterThoeny: any feedback b others?
[9:35pm] PeterThoeny: thumbs up/donw?
[9:35pm] YaojunFei: up
[9:35pm] GeorgeTrubisky: abstain
[9:35pm] MichaelGulitz: up
[9:35pm] YaojunFei: actually a global flag doesn't make so much sense
[9:35pm] HideyoImazu: because this is only about _IncludeUrl(), which is used when %INCLUD{"some url
rather than topic name"}%
[9:37pm] PeterThoeny: when you implement make sure it does not read additional modules for sites that
have charset not enabled
[9:37pm] PeterThoeny: e.g. use module vs require module case
[9:37pm] HideyoImazu: OK. I'm taking note.
[9:37pm] PeterThoeny: so this looks also as an accepted by rel mtg
[9:38pm] PeterThoeny: any other proposals to discuss?
[9:38pm] HideyoImazu: thanks!
[9:39pm] PeterThoeny: not proposals, but lets quickly look at plugins web changes
[9:39pm] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Plugins/WebChanges
[9:39pm] PeterThoeny: i find this interesting:
[9:39pm] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Plugins/GanttEditorPluginDev
[9:40pm] PeterThoeny: just a plugin idea at this time
[9:40pm] PeterThoeny: there is a jquery based gantt editor that looks pretty feature complete
[9:40pm] PeterThoeny: grab and implement if interested! or ask some friend to do it
[9:40pm] PeterThoeny: good project to learn twiki
[9:40pm] PeterThoeny: and jquery
[9:41pm] PeterThoeny: twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Plugins/TopMenuSkin
[9:41pm] HideyoImazu: looks very cool.
[9:41pm] MichaelGulitz: nice feature
[9:41pm] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Plugins/TopMenuSkin
[9:42pm] PeterThoeny: i enhanced the skin with a WEBLEFTBAR setting
[9:42pm] PeterThoeny: with this it is easy to add a sidebar, and name the sidebar topic
[9:42pm] PeterThoeny: to include
[9:42pm] ThomasGutzmann: Yeah, that was missing - that's why I abandoned it again. Thank you!
[9:43pm] PeterThoeny: that is all i had for plugins
[9:43pm] PeterThoeny: anything else on features and extensions?
[9:43pm] PeterThoeny: if not:
[9:43pm] PeterThoeny: ---++ 2. Review Urgent and Not So Urgent Bugs
[9:44pm] PeterThoeny: develop.twiki.org/~twiki4/cgi-bin/view/Bugs/ReleaseBlocker
[9:44pm] PeterThoeny: http://develop.twiki.org/~twiki4/cgi-bin/view/Bugs/ReleaseBlocker
[9:44pm] PeterThoeny: i have no urgent bug to discuss
[9:44pm] PeterThoeny: GeorgeTrubisky?
[9:45pm] GeorgeTrubisky: neither do I
[9:46pm] PeterThoeny: ok, next one
[9:46pm] PeterThoeny: ---++ 3. TWiki-5.1.2 Release Schedule
[9:46pm] PeterThoeny: http://develop.twiki.org/~twiki4/cgi-bin/view/Bugs/ReleaseNotes?type=patch
[9:47pm] PeterThoeny: we have now 20 fixes and 8 enhancements ready for next patch release
[9:47pm] GeorgeTrubisky: so you want to target a release date?
[9:47pm] PeterThoeny: initially i though that we directly release twiki-5.2.0, but we are not ready
yet for the next major release
[9:48pm] PeterThoeny: it is good to have releases at least every 6 month
[9:48pm] PeterThoeny: so we should have one soon
[9:48pm] GeorgeTrubisky: How about first weekend in October?
[9:49pm] PeterThoeny: it is mainly up to you george
[9:49pm] PeterThoeny: is sep possible?
[9:49pm] GeorgeTrubisky: your availability Peter?  October 6th and 7th?
[9:49pm] GeorgeTrubisky: No, not for me
[9:50pm] PeterThoeny: ok
[9:50pm] PeterThoeny: so oct
[9:50pm] PeterThoeny: i am fine with 6 & 7
[9:50pm] PeterThoeny: so buld is that weekend
[9:50pm] GeorgeTrubisky: Yes.  I will schedule those dates
[9:50pm] PeterThoeny: and target release date is monday 8th, ok?
[9:51pm] GeorgeTrubisky: given the build goes well, yes
[9:51pm] PeterThoeny: i have tentatively somthing at blackrock desert on that sat, but there is a
good chance that i do not go (too costly)
[9:53pm] PeterThoeny: we do not need to worry about translations for patch release
[9:53pm] PeterThoeny: anything esle on release?
[9:53pm] GeorgeTrubisky: good
[9:53pm] PeterThoeny: of not:
[9:53pm] PeterThoeny: ---++  4. Miscellaneous
[9:53pm] PeterThoeny: anything?
[9:54pm]  HideyoImazu left the chat room. (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
[9:54pm] ThomasGutzmann: Can I help in some way?
[9:54pm] PeterThoeny: glad you asked!
[9:54pm] PeterThoeny: see http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/GettingInvolved
[9:55pm]  HideyoImazu joined the chat room.
[9:55pm] PeterThoeny: we have plety of interesting projects waiting
[9:55pm] PeterThoeny: "plenty"
[9:55pm] ThomasGutzmann: I meant the question more practical: Is there anything urgent for the next
release?
[9:55pm] PeterThoeny: based on your interest you could pick a project
[9:56pm] PeterThoeny: you also could work on a new feature or plugin that you need and that could
be of interest to the community
[9:56pm] PeterThoeny: we can help if you have quesions
[9:56pm] PeterThoeny: (i can't type tonight)
[9:57pm] PeterThoeny: please ask also around your friend circle
[9:57pm] HideyoImazu: we're human being and tolerate minor typos.
[9:57pm] PeterThoeny: i am trying to get more people interested in participating in the open source
twiki project
[9:58pm] PeterThoeny: so any kind of help in this regard is greatly appreciated
[9:58pm] GeorgeTrubisky: Good meeting.  Take care everyone
[9:58pm] ThomasGutzmann: I'm too new to TWiki to criticize, but my first impression was that it's
extremely rich, but that richness doesn't reach the first time user.
[9:58pm] PeterThoeny: time check: +58 min
[9:59pm]  GeorgeTrubisky left the chat room.
[9:59pm] PeterThoeny: that is a good point ThomasGutzmann
[9:59pm] HideyoImazu: I tend to agree ThomasGutzmann.
[9:59pm] ThomasGutzmann: So the UI is something which should be polished - I take that.
[9:59pm] PeterThoeny: in the last few releases we made twiki more usable for non-tech users
[9:59pm] HideyoImazu: I took several months to get it.
[9:59pm] PeterThoeny: more can be done
[10:00pm] PeterThoeny: but some way to gently nudge power users to the advanced features would be good to have
[10:01pm] PeterThoeny: do you have ideas thomas?
[10:01pm] ThomasGutzmann: I worked with other wikis, so I know why I stopped at TWiki, but the learning curve
could/should be flattened. I can give examples:
[10:03pm] ThomasGutzmann: Look at the personal page. It consists of three parts which cannot be edited at
the same time unless you do a full edit. The users emal address from .htaaccess doesn't appear there.
It's hard for a non-tech user to modify his own profile.
[10:04pm] PeterThoeny: the e-mail address is a good point
[10:04pm] PeterThoeny: it is difficult to solve because twiki has various password managers, each one manages
e-mail addresses differently
[10:04pm] PeterThoeny: but point well taken
[10:04pm] ThomasGutzmann: When editing a topic, it would be useful to have certain options lik COMMENT, 
protection or even TOC as checkboxes outside the topic text. They are there in most cases and can easily
be added that way.
[10:05pm] PeterThoeny: yes, a configurable way to make commonly used twiki variables easily discoverable
& accessible
[10:05pm] PeterThoeny: check!
[10:06pm] ThomasGutzmann: One of the good points in Confluence is that the plugins and options are easy to
find and select while editing a topic. That shouldn't be difficult.
[10:06pm] PeterThoeny: agreed, it should not be too hard
[10:06pm] PeterThoeny: we already have a dynamic TWikiVariables topic
[10:06pm] ThomasGutzmann: Point is: you have to have mastered the learning curve before you can touch the
power of TWiki. It should be more to the fingertips.
[10:07pm] PeterThoeny: a simplified version could be shown in the editor
[10:07pm] PeterThoeny: one point we need to watch out for though:
[10:07pm] PeterThoeny: it is easy to prominently show power features to users
[10:08pm] PeterThoeny: this will distract and scare beginner users, so there is a balance
[10:09pm] PeterThoeny: for variables, for example, the editor could show the 5 most common ones, and a
"show more" - the show more will pull the complete list via ajax call
[10:09pm] ThomasGutzmann: I agree. But currently there's not enough. TopMenuSkin is a very good step in
this direction.
[10:09pm] PeterThoeny: that way power features are accessible/discoverable but out of the way
[10:09pm] MichaelGulitz: Simple thing would be to add a 'help' Menu in TopBar that points to the
documentation topics in TWiki web and is always available - not only in twiki web
[10:09pm] ThomasGutzmann: Yes, something like that.
[10:10pm] PeterThoeny: good idea MichaelGulitz
[10:10pm] PeterThoeny: where would that help menu be?
[10:11pm] PeterThoeny: its own pulldown?
[10:11pm] PeterThoeny: in one of the existing pulldowns?
[10:11pm] MichaelGulitz: I'd place i as new pulldown on the right side (left of the user perhaps)
[10:12pm] ThomasGutzmann: Or in a stacked sidebar.
[10:12pm] MichaelGulitz: but not everybody uses a side bar
[10:13pm] ThomasGutzmann: Correct
[10:13pm] ThomasGutzmann: I always do, screens are wide enough for most applications.
[10:14pm] PeterThoeny: good suggestions
[10:14pm] PeterThoeny: please post feature proposals in the codev web
[10:14pm] PeterThoeny: time check: +74 min
[10:14pm] PeterThoeny: we should wrap up
[10:15pm] ThomasGutzmann: Ok, I will come back with some proposals.
[10:15pm] PeterThoeny: cool
[10:15pm] PeterThoeny: anything else before we close the meeting?
[10:15pm] MichaelGulitz: no
[10:16pm] PeterThoeny: nice meeting you first timers YaojunFei and ThomasGutzmann
[10:16pm] PeterThoeny: thanks all!
[10:16pm] YaojunFei: So do I
[10:16pm] PeterThoeny: see you next time
[10:16pm] MichaelGulitz: bye
[10:16pm] YaojunFei: take care, bye
[10:16pm] ThomasGutzmann: Good night/day everybody.
[10:16pm] PeterThoeny: i'll post the minutes
[10:16pm] PeterThoeny: bye all for now
[10:16pm]  MichaelGulitz left the chat room.
[10:16pm]  YaojunFei left the chat room.