Date: July 20, 2012 5:47:02 PM PDT
Subject: JerusalemMeetingLog2012x07x20.txt

[8:52pm]  HideyoImazu joined the chat room.
[8:53pm] HideyoImazu: hi peter
[9:01pm] PeterThoeny: hi hideyo-san
[9:01pm] PeterThoeny: i am jetlagged
[9:01pm] HideyoImazu: how was your trip to hong kong?
[9:02pm] PeterThoeny: was a lot of fun
[9:02pm] PeterThoeny: somehow food is so much more tasty in hong kong than chinese food in the usa
[9:02pm] PeterThoeny: have you been to hong kong?
[9:03pm] HideyoImazu: several times.
[9:03pm] HideyoImazu: I love sweets there.
[9:03pm] PeterThoeny: ah
[9:03pm] HideyoImazu: besides the usual stuff
[9:03pm] PeterThoeny: i like seafood and dim sum
[9:04pm] PeterThoeny: hmm, it looks like only the two of us today
[9:04pm] HideyoImazu: there are good dessert eateries, which are worth trying unless you hate sweet stuff
[9:05pm] PeterThoeny: i like ice cream
[9:06pm] PeterThoeny: some sweets to, but i shy away from too much sugar
[9:06pm] PeterThoeny: i like fermented sugar, e.g. wine
[9:06pm] HideyoImazu: good dessert is not so sugary sweet
[9:07pm] PeterThoeny: yes
[9:07pm] PeterThoeny: i like french pastry
[9:08pm] PeterThoeny: i am not so much for american cakes, too sweet
[9:08pm] HideyoImazu: maybe in the u.s. desserts are really sweet. but not in countries whose curinary
culture is somewhat more advanced than the u.s.
[9:08pm] PeterThoeny: hehe, 'xactly
[9:09pm] PeterThoeny: shall we do formal meeting or informal?
[9:10pm] HideyoImazu: let's go formal
[9:10pm] HideyoImazu: 2 weeks ago, i was alone on this channel for more than an hour.
[9:10pm] PeterThoeny: ok
[9:11pm] PeterThoeny: proposed agenda:
[9:11pm] PeterThoeny: 1. Feature Requests for Jerusalem Release
[9:11pm] PeterThoeny: 2. Review Urgent and Not So Urgent Bugs
[9:11pm] PeterThoeny: 3. TWiki Foundation Discussion
[9:11pm] PeterThoeny: 4. Miscellaneous
[9:11pm] PeterThoeny: ---++ 1. Feature Requests for Jerusalem Release
[9:11pm] PeterThoeny: twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/TWikiFeatureProposals
[9:12pm] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/TWikiFeatureProposals
[9:13pm] PeterThoeny: some of your recent proposals are now ok'ed
[9:13pm] PeterThoeny: under investigation:
[9:13pm] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/ReadOnlyMirrorWebs
[9:14pm] HideyoImazu: do you have specific concerns?
[9:15pm] PeterThoeny: your wrote:
[9:15pm] PeterThoeny: "$TWiki::cfg{SiteName} being fundamental for the site's behavior, it's inappropriate
to set it at %SYSTEMWEB%.TWikiPreferences or %USERWEB%.TWikiPreferences."
[9:15pm] PeterThoeny: why disallow those system settings?
[9:15pm] PeterThoeny: seems limiting and breaks compatibility
[9:16pm] HideyoImazu: do we have something like $TWiki::cfg{SiteName} already?
[9:16pm] PeterThoeny: on one hand, the TWiki web should be read-only, so the TWiki.TWikiPreferences should
not be modified
[9:17pm] PeterThoeny: with current recommendation, system wide settings should be done in
Main.TWikiPreferences
[9:17pm] HideyoImazu: even by a TWikiAdminGroup member?
[9:18pm] PeterThoeny: yes, twiki admins should not touch TWiki.TWikiPreferences - this is to avoid upgrade
pains
[9:18pm] PeterThoeny: on upgrade you get the new TWiki.TWikiPreferences, and restore your existing
Main.TWikiPreferences
[9:19pm] HideyoImazu: ok
[9:19pm] PeterThoeny: so, even with a multi-site setup i think it is better to keep that spec for global
settings, and allow local specific settings with the meta data you implement
[9:20pm] PeterThoeny: the reason is that some twiki app developers want to define global settings, they
should work across all federated twikis
[9:20pm] PeterThoeny: hence the need for Main.TWikiPreferences
[9:21pm] HideyoImazu: understood
[9:21pm] HideyoImazu: in my scenario each site in a federation has different site name
[9:22pm] HideyoImazu: that makes it impractical to define site name in TWiki.TWikiPreferences
[9:22pm] PeterThoeny: yes, understood
[9:23pm] HideyoImazu: and Main.TWikiPreferences being read/write, it's dangerous to define site name
there.
[9:23pm] PeterThoeny: settings that should be site local specific should be defined in the repository fpr
meta data you implement
[9:23pm] PeterThoeny: does that make sense?
[9:24pm] HideyoImazu: that's a possibility
[9:24pm] PeterThoeny: there are many global settings, and only a few site local specific settings
[9:25pm] PeterThoeny: thinking of that, why not simply use LocalSite.cfg for site local specific settings?
[9:25pm] HideyoImazu: again, in my scenario, metadata repository stores data shared among federated sites.
[9:26pm] HideyoImazu: $TWiki::cfg{SiteName} is defined in LocalSite.cfg
[9:26pm] HideyoImazu: in my scenario
[9:26pm] PeterThoeny: ok
[9:28pm] HideyoImazu: let me clarify on the proposal topic that $TWiki::cfg{SiteName} is defined on
LocalSite.cfg
[9:28pm] PeterThoeny: another thing i am wondering, should WEBLIST return all webs by default, and local
ones only with s special switch?
[9:29pm] PeterThoeny: ok, listening (lets talk weblist later)
[9:30pm] HideyoImazu: that's possible, but my experience so far says that would end up requiring more
changes than otherwise
[9:31pm] HideyoImazu: maybe you are right.
[9:31pm] HideyoImazu: it's intuitive for WEBLIST to return all webs
[9:32pm] HideyoImazu: the rename interface would need to have %WEBLIST{local="on"...}%
[9:33pm] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/TWiki/VarWEBLIST already has a webs="public"
[9:33pm] PeterThoeny: it would be logical extension to add webs="local"
[9:33pm] HideyoImazu: webs="public,local" would be fine by you?
[9:34pm] PeterThoeny: so, webs="public, local" would return all local non-access controlled webs
[9:35pm] HideyoImazu: though for most TWiki installation all webs are local, still, having "local" on the
rename interface is not a problem, right?
[9:37pm] PeterThoeny: yes, should not be a problem to have local specified and ignored by non-multi-site
installs
[9:37pm] HideyoImazu: got it
[9:37pm] HideyoImazu: i'll update my proposal accordingly
[9:38pm] HideyoImazu: any other concern?
[9:39pm] PeterThoeny: i am good with those updates
[9:39pm] PeterThoeny: so accepted after that
[9:39pm] HideyoImazu: cool
[9:40pm] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/UsingMultipleDiskDrives
[9:41pm] HideyoImazu: do you have specific concern?
[9:43pm] PeterThoeny: just concerned about added complexity and possibly performance impact if not used
[9:45pm] HideyoImazu: $TWiki::cfg{MultipleDisks} being check for the feature, there should be little
impact when not used.
[9:47pm] HideyoImazu: anecdotally, there is no noticeable performance change after the feature implemented
on my site.
[9:47pm] PeterThoeny: idea: since mv across symbolic links is not possible, you could define a new "move
behavior" configure setting. by default is is the perl internal mv. it can be set to do a cp and rm for
sites that use symbolic links
[9:48pm] PeterThoeny: that way you could use symbolic links for large twiki site and avoid the complexity
of configuration
[9:48pm] PeterThoeny: and code changes with  conditional
[9:49pm] HideyoImazu: what if a subweb having 1G+ attachments is moved as a subweb of a top level web
which resides in a different disk?
[9:50pm] HideyoImazu: copying that amount of data may not complete within a reasonable amount of time.
[9:52pm] PeterThoeny: don;t you have the same issue anyway if you want to move across disks
[9:52pm] PeterThoeny: ?
[9:52pm] PeterThoeny: may be the rename could be tried first with mv, and if fail try the cp and rm
[9:53pm] PeterThoeny: that way it works fast on local disks and slow across disks
[9:53pm] HideyoImazu: iin my implementation, that's recognized as a cross disk operation and not allowed
[9:53pm] HideyoImazu: maybe moving a subweb is not a good example.
[9:53pm] HideyoImazu: what if a topic having a large number of attachments is deleted?
[9:57pm] PeterThoeny: same thing, if mv possible use that, else use slow cp & rm
[9:57pm] HideyoImazu: you cannot hide use of multiple disks well.
[9:57pm] HideyoImazu: wouldn't that cause browser time out?
[9:58pm] PeterThoeny: possibly, but don;t you have that issue anyway if you have multiple disks on a site?
[9:58pm] HideyoImazu: the chance for the cp and rm to be interrupted by system problem is not ignorable.
[9:59pm] PeterThoeny: ah, i see, you define a trash web per disk
[9:59pm] HideyoImazu: as I said, in my implementation, cross disk operations are not allowed from browser.
[9:59pm] HideyoImazu: cross disk operation are done outside twiki - sort of.
[9:59pm] HideyoImazu: i wrote a command line tool for that.
[10:01pm] PeterThoeny: also, why is puburl dependent on disk used?
[10:02pm] HideyoImazu: you mean %PUBURL%?
[10:02pm] PeterThoeny: say Sales web is on disk 1 and Eng web on disk 2
[10:02pm] PeterThoeny: topic url is still /twiki/bin/Sales and /twiki/bin/Eng ?
[10:03pm] HideyoImazu: correct
[10:03pm] PeterThoeny: so why not pub urls /twiki/pub/Sales and /twiki/pub/Eng ?
[10:03pm] HideyoImazu: that requires symbolic links
[10:04pm] PeterThoeny: without symbolic links you break pub urls
[10:04pm] HideyoImazu: assuming /twiki/pub/... is handled by the uderlining web server rather than twiki
[10:05pm] PeterThoeny: say, in Eng web you use %PUBURL%/TWiki/TWikiLogos/T-logo-140x40.png to show the
twiki logo
[10:05pm] PeterThoeny: so current web is Eng, e.g. disk 2
[10:06pm] PeterThoeny: so in your senario %PUBURL% resolves to pub of disk 2
[10:06pm] PeterThoeny: which breaks above link
[10:06pm] HideyoImazu: that's discussed at #Symbolic_links_for_SYSTEMWEB
[10:07pm] PeterThoeny: same issue if in the Eng web you show an image located in the Sales web
[10:08pm] HideyoImazu: it's addressed at
http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/UsingMultipleDiskDrives#PUBURL_PUBURLPATH though it's not clean
[10:09pm] PeterThoeny: i think there are too many "gotachas" for end users
[10:09pm] HideyoImazu: ideally, /pub/.... should be rewritten to viewfile/....
[10:10pm] HideyoImazu: I suppose %PUBURL% is the only issue users experience when a web is moved from one
disk to another
[10:11pm] HideyoImazu: moving topics and subwebs is somewhat restricted but that can be accomplished off
-line
[10:12pm] PeterThoeny: to summarize i do not object to the feature if documented well (e.g. ok to
implement), but i have a hunch that using a file system that supports large data, or symbolic links with
cp & rm where needed is a more intuitive way for users
[10:12pm] HideyoImazu: do you think cp & rm is practical?
[10:13pm] HideyoImazu: what if it takes minutes to complete?
[10:13pm] HideyoImazu: what if cp & rm interrupted due to some system failure?
[10:15pm] PeterThoeny: yes, that is a concern
[10:16pm] HideyoImazu: and symbolic link management is an additional complexity
[10:16pm] PeterThoeny: realistically, does it happen with a single topic rename? i can imagine it could
happen if a whole web is moved across disks
[10:17pm] HideyoImazu: i wouldn't be surprised if we have a topic having 100G bytes of attachment stroage
in total.
[10:18pm] HideyoImazu: and that topic might be moved to Trash residing in a different disk.
[10:19pm] HideyoImazu: once in a while, we see RCS command is interrupted by weekly reboot or something
leaving a crap.
[10:19pm] PeterThoeny: so, i support the feature if documented well, even though i am skeptical due to
added complexity for end users
[10:20pm] HideyoImazu: ok
[10:20pm] HideyoImazu: I understand your concern on complexity.
[10:20pm] HideyoImazu: I wish I could avoid it.
[10:20pm] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/ViewTopicTextWithVariablesExpanded
[10:21pm] PeterThoeny: looks good as proposed, pls change to accepted
[10:21pm] HideyoImazu: ok
[10:22pm] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/UserWebsInsteadOfUserTopics
[10:23pm] HideyoImazu: what do you think?
[10:24pm] PeterThoeny: i am ok if implemeted as a new user mapping manager that replaces the
TWikiUserMapping manager
[10:25pm] PeterThoeny: question is how to make skins and twiki apps aware of the change
[10:25pm] HideyoImazu: referring %USERWEBSENABLED%
[10:26pm] HideyoImazu: as mentioned at #TWiki_core
[10:27pm] PeterThoeny: could have a performance impact if the skin & apps referring users has many %IFs
[10:28pm] PeterThoeny: it also can break apps that use %WIKINAME% and %WIKIUSERNAME%
[10:29pm] HideyoImazu: using for what and how?
[10:30pm] PeterThoeny: currently, the twiki web uses %WIKINAME% 36 times, and %WIKIUSERNAME% 48 times
[10:31pm] PeterThoeny: for example:
[10:31pm] HideyoImazu: %WIKINAME% and %WIKIUSERNAME% as links keep working assuming
ForbidSubwebNameSameAsTopicName is implemented
[10:31pm] PeterThoeny: TWiki05x01/WebLeftBarPersonalTemplate.txt:  * [[%SCRIPTURL{search}%/%BASEWEB%/?
search=%WIKINAME%;order=modified;limit=50;reverse=on][My %BASEWEB% activities]]
[10:32pm] HideyoImazu: that's not affected, I suppose
[10:32pm] HideyoImazu: %WIKINAME% value remains the same.
[10:34pm] PeterThoeny: but thsi searches for the logged in user, so in your case it needs to be
conditional because users are in subwebs
[10:34pm] PeterThoeny: another example:
[10:35pm] HideyoImazu: that behave somewhat differently in the Main web because now it has subwebs of
users.
[10:35pm] HideyoImazu: but in other webs, it behaves the same
[10:35pm] PeterThoeny: %IF{
[10:35pm] PeterThoeny:  "'%USERNAME%'='guest' OR '%USERNAME%'='TWikiGuest'"
[10:35pm] PeterThoeny:  then="<nop>"
[10:35pm] PeterThoeny:  else="%IF{ TWiki05x01/TopMenuSkinTopBar.txt:  "istopic
'%USERSWEB%.%WIKINAME%Bookmarks'" ...
[10:35pm] PeterThoeny: sorry, this:
[10:35pm] PeterThoeny: %IF{
[10:35pm] PeterThoeny:  "'%USERNAME%'='guest' OR '%USERNAME%'='TWikiGuest'"
[10:35pm] PeterThoeny:  then="<nop>"
[10:35pm] PeterThoeny:  else="%IF{  "istopic '%USERSWEB%.%WIKINAME%Bookmarks'" ...
[10:36pm] PeterThoeny: this is in TWiki05x01/TopMenuSkinTopBar.txt
[10:36pm] PeterThoeny: e.g. there are many places that need to be fixed with the conditional
[10:36pm] HideyoImazu: sure.
[10:37pm] HideyoImazu: that's part of a skin, right?
[10:37pm] PeterThoeny: yes
[10:37pm] PeterThoeny: but also plugins
[10:37pm] HideyoImazu: such as?
[10:37pm] PeterThoeny: for example, signatures created in commentplugin templates need to be changed
[10:38pm] HideyoImazu: why?
[10:38pm] PeterThoeny: example:
[10:38pm] PeterThoeny: TWiki05x01/UserCommentsTemplate.txt:-- %WIKIUSERNAME% - %DATE% %TIME%
[10:39pm] PeterThoeny: that resolves to Main.FirstLast
[10:39pm] HideyoImazu: %WIKIUSERNAME% keeps working assuming ForidSubwebNameSameAsTopicName is in place.
[10:40pm] HideyoImazu: Main.FirstLast would work as Main/FirstLast.WebHome if Main.FirstLast doesn't exist
[10:40pm] PeterThoeny: ah, ok, so that would work
[10:42pm] PeterThoeny: so i am ok if implemented as separate user mapping manager, and conditional is
core, skins, plugins, apps as needed
[10:42pm] HideyoImazu: cool
[10:43pm] PeterThoeny: i think that is all on feature proposals
[10:43pm] PeterThoeny: time check: +103 min
[10:43pm] PeterThoeny: we are already over
[10:43pm] PeterThoeny: develop.twiki.org/~twiki4/cgi-bin/view/Bugs/ReleaseBlocker
[10:43pm] PeterThoeny: ---++ 2. Review Urgent and Not So Urgent Bugs
[10:43pm] PeterThoeny: anyting on bugs?
[10:44pm] HideyoImazu: no
[10:44pm] HideyoImazu: i fixed UnitTestContrib bugs - some of them. and still some remaining
[10:44pm] PeterThoeny: i fixed a small bug, http://develop.twiki.org/~twiki4/cgi-bin/view/Bugs/Item6903
[10:45pm] PeterThoeny: yes, i have seen your unit test checkins, nice!
[10:46pm] PeterThoeny: i fixed another small bug in edittableplugin,
http://develop.twiki.org/~twiki4/cgi-bin/view/Bugs/Item6900#r7
[10:46pm] HideyoImazu: cool
[10:47pm] PeterThoeny: http://develop.twiki.org/~twiki4/cgi-bin/view/Bugs/Item6898 - added FILTER()
function to spreadsheetplugin
[10:48pm] PeterThoeny: http://develop.twiki.org/~twiki4/cgi-bin/view/Bugs/Item6897 - added ISDIGIT(),
ISLOWER(), ISUPPER(), ISWIKIWORD() functions
[10:48pm] PeterThoeny: george is not here, so let;s skip 3. TWiki Foundation Discussion
[10:49pm] PeterThoeny: ---++ 4. Miscellaneous
[10:49pm] PeterThoeny: anything?
[10:49pm] HideyoImazu: no
[10:49pm] PeterThoeny: ok, let's close the meeting
[10:50pm] PeterThoeny: we spent 110 min
[10:50pm] HideyoImazu: we did 2 meeting worth of discussion!
[10:50pm] PeterThoeny: thanks hideyo-san!
[10:50pm] PeterThoeny: yes
[10:50pm] HideyoImazu: thanks peter.
[10:50pm] PeterThoeny: i heard that the rainy season is over in japan
[10:50pm] PeterThoeny: hot now?
[10:51pm] PeterThoeny: it was very hot and humid in hong kong
[10:51pm] HideyoImazu: several days until yesterday were extremely hot
[10:51pm] HideyoImazu: but not so much today
[10:51pm] PeterThoeny: here in the silicon valley i sometimes put on a jumper when inside
[10:52pm] HideyoImazu: i've been in half sleeve shirt w/o jacket for the past couple of months
[10:53pm] HideyoImazu: talk to you soon.
[10:53pm] PeterThoeny: ttyl hideyo-san
[11:10pm]  HideyoImazu left the chat room. (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)