Date: 2012-05-25 Subject: JerusalemMeetingLog2012x05x26.txt [9:22pm]  PeterThoeny rejoined the room. [9:23pm] PeterThoeny: hi GeorgeTrubisky, hi himazu [9:23pm] PeterThoeny: sorry to be late [9:23pm] PeterThoeny: where are we? [9:23pm] GeorgeTrubisky: hi peter [9:23pm] himazu: hi peter [9:24pm] himazu: we just started talking about key value store used for the metadata repository. [9:24pm] GeorgeTrubisky: about key value store. [9:24pm] GeorgeTrubisky: [21:16:47] is this about the store for metadata? [9:24pm] GeorgeTrubisky: [21:16:55] I'm not so up to date with various open source/free software things. [9:24pm] GeorgeTrubisky: [21:17:02] oh [9:24pm] GeorgeTrubisky: [21:17:02] correct [9:24pm] GeorgeTrubisky: [21:17:22] only yesterday, I realized that GDBM is dead. [9:24pm] GeorgeTrubisky: [21:17:53] Berkeley DB 1.X is still alive and part of Linux distribution. [9:24pm] GeorgeTrubisky: [21:18:10] So I'm inclined to use it for the metadata store. [9:24pm] GeorgeTrubisky: [21:19:00] the implementation would be compatible with SDBM, BerkeleyDB or any others providing similar interface. [9:24pm] GeorgeTrubisky: [21:19:16] so picking one is not a huge deal. [9:24pm] GeorgeTrubisky: [21:19:47] but if you have some insight around key value store, I'd like to hear. [9:24pm] GeorgeTrubisky: [21:20:15] All I know about Berkeley DB 1.X  is its an option for Subversion, but most (subversion) installations don't use it [9:24pm] GeorgeTrubisky: [21:20:54] and using what? [9:24pm] GeorgeTrubisky: [21:22:07] most everyone (subversion) uses the FSFS option [9:24pm] GeorgeTrubisky: that's it [9:24pm] himazu: it should be an in-core one rather than server-client. [9:24pm] himazu: for simplicity. [9:25pm] PeterThoeny: i assume this is for himazu-san's work [9:25pm] GeorgeTrubisky: yes [9:25pm] himazu: yes. [9:25pm] PeterThoeny: how about using perl dbi? [9:25pm] PeterThoeny: that way it is up to the admin to decide what db to use [9:26pm] GeorgeTrubisky: that's a good idea [9:26pm] himazu: that makes things a bit more complicated, [9:26pm] himazu: but [9:27pm] himazu: it's for a large site anyway, which is not trivial to manage anyway [9:27pm] PeterThoeny: there is even a (pre-installed?) DBD::CSV database [9:27pm] himazu: I was thinking to have the owner pick from 'DB_Files' "SDBM_Files', etc. [9:27pm] PeterThoeny: to store data in falt file in csv format [9:28pm] PeterThoeny: per dpi is the standard for database [9:28pm] PeterThoeny: "perl dbi" i wanted to say [9:28pm] PeterThoeny: overview http://www.perl.com/pub/1999/10/DBI.html [9:30pm] himazu: tthere is DBI::DBM as well [9:30pm] himazu: which can use Berkeley DB [9:30pm] himazu: OK. I'll go with DBI. [9:31pm] PeterThoeny: i think that is the most flexible approach, and not too complex [9:34pm] PeterThoeny: what else on http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/RepositoryForSiteAndWebMetadata ? [9:34pm] PeterThoeny: thanks himazu for documenting the ui [9:34pm] PeterThoeny: now it is more clear [9:35pm] himazu: I started implementing and the page will evolve more [9:35pm] PeterThoeny: small hint: use the standard twiki css classes for html elements so that we get a consistent look [9:35pm] PeterThoeny: for example input fields have class="twikiInputField", submit buttons class="twikiSubmit" etc [9:36pm] himazu: ok [9:42pm] PeterThoeny: anything else on this feature? [9:42pm] GeorgeTrubisky: thanks for the patch peter on Item6869: TWikiDrawPlugin [9:44pm] PeterThoeny: sure [9:44pm] PeterThoeny: good that this is fixed now because some orgs are using this plugin [9:44pm] PeterThoeny: i also updated the known issues page with this issue [9:45pm] PeterThoeny: this is for develop.twiki.org/~twiki4/cgi-bin/view/Bugs/Item6869 [9:45pm] PeterThoeny: http://develop.twiki.org/~twiki4/cgi-bin/view/Bugs/Item6869 [9:46pm] PeterThoeny: i did a small "no brainer" enhancement: [9:46pm] PeterThoeny: http://develop.twiki.org/~twiki4/cgi-bin/view/Bugs/Item6877 [9:46pm] PeterThoeny: Item6877: Auto-incrementing topic names using AUTOINC with optional trailing string [9:46pm] PeterThoeny: basically so that it is possible to auto-increment topics that have a suffix in the name after the sequential number [9:47pm] PeterThoeny: i had a need for a client [9:47pm] PeterThoeny: instead of just Program0001 [9:47pm] PeterThoeny: a more descriptive Program0001BreadSlicer [9:47pm] GeorgeTrubisky: ic [9:48pm] PeterThoeny: small change and tested [9:48pm] himazu: cool [9:49pm] PeterThoeny: i made progress on http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/VarTOPICTITLE [9:50pm] PeterThoeny: http://develop.twiki.org/~twiki4/cgi-bin/view/Bugs/Item6875 is corresponding bug item [9:50pm] PeterThoeny: this is for usability [9:51pm] PeterThoeny: now if any topic has a TITLE setting defined or a form field named Title, that value will be used instead of the topic name [9:51pm] PeterThoeny: now 80% done [9:52pm] himazu: a topic may already have a form attached for some purposes. [9:52pm] PeterThoeny: once this is done i will work on this related feature: [9:52pm] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/TopicDisplayName [9:52pm] himazu: in that case, if you want to specify TOPICTITLE explicitly, [9:52pm] himazu: how would you do it? [9:52pm] PeterThoeny: yes, that is the point, a topic already might have a form [9:53pm] PeterThoeny: in this case you can add one field called "Title" that has this special purpose [9:53pm] PeterThoeny: the form in the Sandbox web and Blog web already use this convention [9:54pm] PeterThoeny: and the SEARCHes in those web use that -- currently conditionally, later one can use simply %TOPICTITLE% instead of conditional $topic or $formfield(Title) [9:55pm] PeterThoeny: in a SEARCH format one can use $topictitle [9:56pm] himazu: adding the Title field to an existing form for for %TOPICTITLE% doesn't sound clean. [9:56pm] PeterThoeny: why not? [9:56pm] PeterThoeny: what would you do differently? [9:57pm] PeterThoeny: instead of Title field you can define a TITLE topic preferences setting [9:57pm] himazu: it would be better if you have a way to specify other means to pick up topic title. [9:58pm] PeterThoeny: such as? [9:59pm] himazu: %TITLE% has the highest precedence? [10:00pm] PeterThoeny: not sure, it might be Title form field [10:00pm] himazu: I don't have a concrete design in mind. maybe TITLE topic preference might be good enough [10:01pm] PeterThoeny: if either one is missing, %TOPIC% is used [10:02pm] PeterThoeny: just checked, order of importance: Title form field, TITLE setting, %TOPIC% [10:02pm] himazu: TOPIC can be defined at the web level? [10:02pm] himazu: in that case TOPIC's definition need to have variables. [10:02pm] himazu: and TOPICTITLE and $topictitle resolution need to be aware of that. [10:02pm] himazu: sorry [10:03pm] himazu: i mean to put TITLE rather TOPIC [10:03pm] PeterThoeny: no, i think TOPIC can't be redefined [10:03pm] himazu: on the lines above. [10:03pm] himazu: I mean can TITLE be defined at the web level? [10:04pm] PeterThoeny: at this time it is meant for topic level only [10:04pm] GeorgeTrubisky: Gentalmen, I will say goodbye for now.  Take care [10:04pm]  GeorgeTrubisky left the chat room. ("Leaving...") [10:04pm] PeterThoeny: but yes, because TITLE is a regular pref setting it can be defined at the web level or site level too [10:05pm] PeterThoeny: but for what purpose? [10:05pm] PeterThoeny: ah, george left [10:05pm] PeterThoeny: time check: +65 min [10:06pm] PeterThoeny: we can close soon too [10:06pm] himazu: if TOPICTITLE is written properly, you can have variables in the definition of TITLE. [10:06pm] PeterThoeny: oic, resolve variables [10:07pm] himazu: I have a navigation plug-in, which will be contributed. [10:07pm] PeterThoeny: i think that is not done explicitly, but it will be done later in the pipeline anyway [10:07pm] himazu: it has %STRUCTNAV_TOPICTITLE% variable. [10:07pm] PeterThoeny: for example you could define: [10:07pm] PeterThoeny:   * Set TITLE = %PROPERSPACE{%TITLE%}% [10:08pm] PeterThoeny: at the site level to get spaced-out variables [10:08pm] PeterThoeny: i have not tested this, but it should work [10:09pm] PeterThoeny: how does %STRUCTNAV_TOPICTITLE% differ? [10:09pm] himazu: %STRUCTNAV_TOPICTITLE% is resolved to the topic title defined on the navigation map [10:09pm] himazu: its value depends on topic. [10:09pm] himazu:   * Set TITLE = %STRUCTNAV_TOPICTITLE% [10:09pm] himazu: would work perfectly with the TOPICTITLE [10:09pm] PeterThoeny: and how do you determine that per topic? [10:10pm] himazu: as I said, %STRUCNTAV_TOPICTITLE% depends on topic. [10:10pm] himazu: it looks at the navigation map and finds out the current topic's title and returns it. [10:12pm] PeterThoeny: oic [10:12pm] PeterThoeny: other topic: [10:13pm] himazu: as long as TOPICTITLE assumes TITLE definition may have variables, it should work. [10:13pm] PeterThoeny: ok, i'll test that [10:13pm] himazu: before moving on, I believe TITLE should have the highest precedence. [10:14pm] PeterThoeny: oh [10:14pm] PeterThoeny: why [10:14pm] PeterThoeny: ? [10:14pm] himazu: higher than the Title field. [10:14pm] himazu: you may have a form using the Title field for other purposes. [10:14pm] himazu: such as business card form. [10:15pm] himazu: maybe you don't have to treat Title form field specially [10:15pm] PeterThoeny: the problem with that is that apps that already use that form field for that purpose would behave non-intuitively [10:15pm] PeterThoeny: i planned ahead for twiki [10:16pm] PeterThoeny: twiki-5.1 already has a title field for user profile pages, i named it on purpose "Titles" e.g. plural [10:16pm] PeterThoeny: to avoid this name clash [10:17pm] PeterThoeny: the idea is to have the edit screen show a "title" text field where you can set the title [10:17pm] PeterThoeny: with current spec it would store value in Title form field if exist, else in TITLE setting [10:18pm] PeterThoeny: that way we have consistency, also for existing apps like Support forum on twiki.org [10:19pm] himazu: drawing TOPICTITLE value from [10:19pm] PeterThoeny: if we switch to have TITLE with higher prio, it would actually simplify the implementation for TopicDisplayName (e.g. title text filed in edit screen) but it would be confusing because there is also a Title form filed [10:19pm] himazu: the Title field can be achieved without special care in TOPICTITLE coding, I suppose. [10:20pm] himazu:   * Set TITLE = %FORMFIELD{Title}% [10:20pm] himazu: would do the job [10:20pm] PeterThoeny: oic, treat Title form field special by always setting the TITLE setting to its value? [10:20pm] himazu: or something alike [10:20pm] himazu: yes [10:21pm] himazu: i can be the default for a new web. [10:21pm] PeterThoeny: hmm, problem with that is that users will see that "%FORMFIELD{Title}%" in the edit screen's "title" text field, which is confusing [10:21pm] himazu: and if the web owner want to get wild, he can. [10:21pm] PeterThoeny: i need to think that through a bit [10:22pm] himazu: no [10:22pm] himazu:   * Set TITLE = %FORMFIELD{Title}% [10:23pm] himazu: would be on WebPreferences [10:23pm] PeterThoeny: look at http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/TopicDisplayName [10:23pm] PeterThoeny: screen mockup by: -- ArthurClemens - 17 Apr 2006 [10:23pm] himazu: then, you don't have to treat the Title field specially in the TOPICTITLE code. [10:24pm] PeterThoeny: i understand that it can be defined once [10:24pm] PeterThoeny: but then "%FORMFIELD{Title}%" would be very visible in edit mode, which is confusing to users [10:25pm] PeterThoeny: do you see the problem? [10:25pm] himazu: edit mode of individual topics you mean? [10:26pm] PeterThoeny: yes [10:27pm] himazu: speaking about TopicDisplayName topic, [10:27pm] PeterThoeny: the edit screen will always have a title field named "topic name" [10:27pm] himazu: do you plan to store Topic name to the TITLE variable? [10:27pm] PeterThoeny: it will be stored in Title form field if exist, else in TITLE setting [10:28pm] himazu: of the page? [10:28pm] PeterThoeny: transparently to user [10:28pm] PeterThoeny: yes [10:28pm] PeterThoeny: that way, browser window title uses %TOPICTITLE% and gets the right value [10:29pm] PeterThoeny: does that make sense? [10:29pm] himazu: why do you need to put to the form field? [10:29pm] PeterThoeny: because in some apps you want to have meta data editable in one place [10:30pm] PeterThoeny: for example in a project tracker you have form with title, description, start date, due date, owner etc [10:30pm] himazu: a topic preference value is not a topic metadata? [10:30pm] PeterThoeny: you want to give the user the opportunity to change al those form fields [10:31pm] PeterThoeny: topic pref is topic meta data [10:32pm] PeterThoeny: %META:FIELD{name="Title" title="Title" value="Blah"}% [10:32pm] PeterThoeny: vs. [10:33pm] PeterThoeny: %META:PREFERENCE{name="TITLE" title="TITLE" type="Set" value="Blah"}% [10:33pm] PeterThoeny: that is how it is stored on file level [10:34pm] PeterThoeny: does that make sense? [10:34pm] PeterThoeny: too complicated? [10:35pm]  himazu left the chat room. (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) [10:40pm]  himazu joined the chat room. [10:40pm] himazu: maybe I lost connection. [10:41pm] himazu: the last line from you on my IRC client is at 10:31 starting "for example..." [10:42pm] PeterThoeny: oh [10:43pm] PeterThoeny: PeterThoeny:  you want to give the user the opportunity to change al those form fields [10:43pm] PeterThoeny: [10:31pm]  PeterThoeny:  topic pref is topic meta data [10:43pm] PeterThoeny: [10:32pm]  PeterThoeny:  %META:FIELD{name="Title" title="Title" value="Blah"}% [10:43pm] PeterThoeny: [10:32pm]  PeterThoeny:  vs. [10:43pm] PeterThoeny: [10:33pm]  PeterThoeny: %META:PREFERENCE{name="TITLE" title="TITLE" type="Set" value="Blah"}% [10:43pm] PeterThoeny: [10:33pm]  PeterThoeny:  that is how it is stored on file level [10:43pm] PeterThoeny: [10:34pm]  PeterThoeny:  does that make sense? [10:43pm] PeterThoeny: [10:34pm]  PeterThoeny:  too complicated? [10:43pm] himazu: it does [10:44pm] PeterThoeny: two more items: [10:44pm] himazu: I suppose it's better to compare two designs [10:44pm] PeterThoeny: yes, i will rethink it [10:44pm] PeterThoeny: michael gulitz contributed a new plugin [10:44pm] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Plugins/ConnectByRestPlugin [10:44pm] himazu: maybe it's already there, but you will (or do) have the design and rationale. [10:45pm] PeterThoeny: he had this already in svn [10:45pm] himazu: and I will have my counter argument. [10:45pm] PeterThoeny: now enhanced and published on twiki.org [10:46pm] PeterThoeny: ok, on topictitle, please post your feedback on feature proposal topic [10:46pm] PeterThoeny: one more thing: [10:46pm] PeterThoeny: i am working on twiki apps for a client [10:46pm] PeterThoeny: and discovered that transclusions are really useful to simplify twiki apps [10:47pm] PeterThoeny: see sample screenshot at http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Sandbox/RandomTestTopic52428 [10:47pm] himazu: what's transclusion? [10:48pm] PeterThoeny: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transclusion [10:48pm] PeterThoeny: basically in twiki speak an INCLUDE with parameters [10:48pm] PeterThoeny: in the screenshot you see people's prfile page in boxes [10:49pm] himazu: ok [10:49pm] PeterThoeny: that is done with transclusion [10:49pm] PeterThoeny: for members, something like: [10:50pm] PeterThoeny: %INCLUDE{ "UserProfiles" section="box_130" users="%FORMFIELD{ "Members" topic="%INCLUDINGTOPIC%" }%" }% [10:51pm] PeterThoeny: that way you can create the user profile boxes or various sizes and hide the complexity [10:51pm] PeterThoeny: i'll write a blog abaout this [10:51pm] PeterThoeny: this is all i have on my side [10:52pm] himazu: ok [10:52pm] PeterThoeny: anything else? [10:53pm] himazu: I don't have anything more now. [10:53pm] himazu: thank you for your suggestion on metadata repository. [10:54pm] PeterThoeny: sure [10:54pm] PeterThoeny: btw today we had a nice sake tasting event [10:54pm] PeterThoeny: 28 different type of sake [10:54pm] himazu: oh, cool [10:54pm] PeterThoeny: was a fund raiser for a senior center in japantown of san jose [10:55pm] himazu: are you going to report to (or have you already) facebook? [10:56pm] PeterThoeny: i posted a link on fb [10:56pm] himazu: aha! [10:56pm] PeterThoeny: and also, off the record, we have a japanese student with us at home for 2 month, homestay [10:56pm] PeterThoeny: he is studying english at a language school here [10:56pm] himazu: that's very nice of you. [10:57pm] himazu: I need to run for the next meeting. [10:57pm] himazu: talk to you soon! [10:58pm] PeterThoeny: ok, thanks for participating [10:58pm] PeterThoeny: can you send me the log of what i missed? [10:58pm]  himazu left the chat room. (Quit: Leaving)