Date: May 10, 2012 11:39:21 PM PDT
Subject: JerusalemMeetingLog2012x05x11.txt

[8:29pm]  starshine joined the chat room.
[9:01pm] PeterThoeny: hi heather
[9:02pm] starshine: pardon me falling out of channel, an app I just updated locked up while stuck
in fullscreen mode
[9:02pm] starshine: there shall definitely be a bug report.
[9:02pm] PeterThoeny: oh, software has bugs? never heard
[9:02pm] starshine: lol
[9:03pm] starshine: in *real* software we even try to fix them
[9:03pm] PeterThoeny: let's see how many show up today
[9:03pm] starshine: to be fair, the offending software is a beta, and needed the bug report.
[9:03pm] starshine: nod
[9:03pm] PeterThoeny: last time we were 7
[9:03pm] starshine: mothers day this weekend for the US, might not be able to get much coding in
[9:04pm] PeterThoeny: we plan to go for dim sum
[9:04pm] PeterThoeny: busy on mothers day
[9:04pm] starshine: dim sum is good for such things
[9:04pm] starshine: they bring food to you, makes everyone feel welcome
[9:04pm]  PeterJones joined the chat room.
[9:04pm] starshine: hi peter
[9:04pm] PeterThoeny: this sat is also model rocket launch at nasa ames by lunar
[9:05pm] PeterThoeny: hi pete!
[9:05pm] PeterThoeny: early riser!
[9:05pm] PeterJones: A very good morning to you all
[9:05pm] PeterThoeny: did you wake up with a triple expresso?
[9:05pm] starshine: oh that sounds nice
[9:05pm] starshine: I want an espresso
[9:05pm] PeterJones: I had an erand and am available fora short while
[9:06pm] starshine: quad mocha and a giant chocolate brownie
[9:06pm] PeterJones: I am going to get a 3 expresso now
[9:06pm] PeterThoeny: chasing god particles?
[9:06pm] PeterJones: The particels will have to wait
[9:06pm] PeterThoeny: heh
[9:07pm] PeterJones: back in 5
[9:07pm] PeterThoeny: heather, do you know pete jones?
[9:07pm] PeterThoeny: he is with cern
[9:07pm] starshine: oh? cool
[9:07pm] PeterThoeny: he maintains a large twiki there
[9:07pm] starshine: nice
[9:08pm] starshine: does he use a lot of modules or only a few?
[9:08pm] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Blog/BlogEntry201111x3
[9:09pm] PeterThoeny: this picture is amazing:
[9:09pm] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/p/pub/Blog/BlogEntry201111x3/CMS.jpg
[9:09pm] starshine: oh wow
[9:10pm]  himazu joined the chat room.
[9:10pm] starshine: I want it for my ipad wallpaper
[9:10pm] starshine: hi himazu!
[9:10pm] starshine: himazu-san
[9:10pm] himazu: hi
[9:10pm] himazu: sorry to be late
[9:10pm] starshine: we've not begun
[9:10pm] starshine: so you're not late
[9:11pm] PeterThoeny: hi imazu-san
[9:11pm] himazu: hi Peter
[9:12pm] PeterThoeny: just mentioned to heather the twiki at cern,
http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Blog/BlogEntry201111x3
[9:12pm] PeterThoeny: and the amazing picture at http://twiki.org/p/pub/Blog/BlogEntry201111x3/CMS.jpg
[9:12pm] PeterThoeny: pete jones will be back shortly
[9:12pm] starshine: ooh, it sounds like I'll like their work on access controls
[9:13pm] starshine: their merge of dependency on a separately managed auth, closely resembles a
case I helped a client with for moinmoin, before that wiki had pluggable auth.
[9:14pm] PeterThoeny: yea, single sign-on is useful
[9:14pm] PeterThoeny: ok, let's start
[9:14pm] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/JerusalemReleaseMeeting2012x05x11
[9:15pm] •starshine cliki twiki
[9:15pm] PeterThoeny: proposed agenda:
[9:15pm] PeterThoeny: 1. Feature Requests for Jerusalem Release
[9:15pm] PeterThoeny: 2. Review Urgent and Not So Urgent Bugs
[9:15pm] PeterThoeny: 3. TWiki Foundation Discussion
[9:15pm] PeterThoeny: 4. Miscellaneous
[9:15pm] PeterThoeny: we are less people than last time
[9:15pm] PeterThoeny: we can have a flexible agenda today
[9:15pm] PeterThoeny: i'd like to talk and brainstorm on features
[9:16pm] starshine: ok.
[9:16pm] PeterThoeny: i do not really have an update on non-profit
[9:16pm] starshine: I did some editing on the survey page
[9:16pm] PeterThoeny: ---++ 1. Feature Requests for Jerusalem Release
[9:16pm] starshine: I also have the Jono Bacon book 'The Art of Community' on my desk at work
[9:17pm] PeterThoeny: ah, a good book
[9:17pm] starshine: yes
[9:17pm] PeterThoeny: i reviewed the some chapters for jono
[9:17pm] starshine: cool
[9:17pm] PeterThoeny: ah, before i forget:
[9:17pm] PeterThoeny: i discovered a new twiki book
[9:17pm] PeterThoeny: just came out
[9:17pm] starshine: oh?
[9:17pm] starshine: tell tell
[9:19pm] PeterThoeny: https://twitter.com/#!/twiki/status/197436472528351232
[9:19pm] PeterThoeny: i got the book
[9:19pm] starshine: thats a very silly cover.
[9:19pm] PeterThoeny: good tutorial on building twiki apps using twiki forms and search
[9:19pm] PeterThoeny: the book is thin
[9:20pm] PeterJones: ill buy it
[9:20pm] starshine: sometimes that's good
[9:20pm] PeterThoeny: only 77 pages
[9:20pm] PeterThoeny: the author is from s.f.
[9:20pm] starshine: I probably will too, next time I'm at a bookshop.
[9:20pm] PeterThoeny: i exchanged some e-mails
[9:20pm] PeterThoeny: i will try to meet him
[9:20pm] PeterThoeny: back to features
[9:21pm] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/TWikiFeatureProposals
[9:21pm] PeterThoeny: hideyo-san's proposal:
[9:21pm] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/RepositoryForSiteAndWebMetadata
[9:21pm] PeterThoeny: i reviewed it
[9:21pm] PeterThoeny: looks basically good
[9:22pm] PeterThoeny: question: any plans / needs to version control the settings?
[9:22pm] PeterThoeny: current pref settings are version controlled via topic history
[9:22pm] starshine: how does it handle access control?
[9:22pm] himazu: so far, update is granted only to TWiki Admins
[9:23pm] himazu: anybody can view
[9:23pm] PeterThoeny: starshine:  this feature is optionally enabled, needed only by large twiki sites
[9:23pm] starshine: could someone with access to the english page of something (forinstance) be
allowed Equivalent Access to the asia version of same page?
[9:24pm] starshine: I'm seeing his description, I like the design idea overall
[9:24pm] himazu: the metadata repository is not for access control
[9:24pm] PeterThoeny: for traceability it might be good to have version history, or alternatively,
log files that tell who did what
[9:24pm] himazu: for the most part
[9:25pm] himazu: yes
[9:25pm] himazu: all changes to the metadata repository are now logged on our TWiki installation
[9:25pm] PeterThoeny: in log201205.txt file in usual format?
[9:25pm] himazu: and we have daily text dump of all metadata in the repository
[9:26pm] himazu: yes
[9:26pm] himazu: not quite
[9:26pm] himazu: as of now, we use the debug log.
[9:27pm] starshine: so, one of the earliest 2nd-year programming projects I was in suggested, if you
have someone with no right to see something, they should also not be allowed to see that it exists.
[9:27pm] himazu: so that the statistics script isn't surprised by some weird script name
[9:27pm] starshine: if this metadata can be viewed by all
[9:27pm] starshine: and used to know what exists
[9:27pm] starshine: it could defy that principle.
[9:28pm] starshine: I could see a case for metadata having its own log but in similar format
[9:28pm] himazu: the thing is, some part of the metadata is so essential
[9:28pm] PeterThoeny: the statistics script is forgiving and overlooks lines it can;t handle
[9:28pm] himazu: that it needs to be read even to determine
[9:28pm] PeterThoeny: for example the blacklistplugin adds lines to the log file
[9:28pm] himazu: whether or not a user can do certain things
[9:28pm] starshine: yes
[9:29pm] himazu: i don't mean to stick to the current behavior.
[9:29pm] himazu: I'm flexible in changing.
[9:29pm] PeterThoeny: some examples:
[9:29pm] PeterThoeny: | 2012-05-08 - 05:01 | guest | blacklist | TWiki.WebHome |
/cgi-bin/login Mozilla | 61.160.232.4 |
[9:29pm] PeterThoeny: | 2012-05-08 - 06:22 | guest | blacklist | Main.TWikiRegistration |
REGEXPIRE: Magic 69672 is missing, bad or expired Opera | 109.231.194.37 |
[9:30pm] PeterThoeny: i'd say, ideally you version control the settings
[9:30pm] PeterThoeny: alternatively log in twiki logs
[9:30pm] himazu: understood
[9:30pm] PeterThoeny: format:
[9:31pm] PeterThoeny: | date | user | action | web.topic | any description | ip address |
[9:32pm] PeterThoeny: the "action" is a reserved word of your app
[9:32pm] starshine: other proposed new feature DatabaseStore may have interesting interaction
with imazu-san's feature
[9:32pm] PeterThoeny: view for view script, blacklist for blacklistplugin, etc
[9:32pm] PeterThoeny: one more feedback on naming
[9:33pm] PeterThoeny: the term super might be misunderstood for a super class or the like
[9:33pm] himazu: ok
[9:33pm] PeterThoeny: may be find a name that is descriptive for what it does
[9:33pm] •starshine ponders good word for this idea
[9:34pm] PeterThoeny: such as sitemeta, extendedmeta?
[9:34pm] starshine: extended is too vague
[9:34pm] PeterThoeny: anything descriptive
[9:34pm] PeterThoeny: what is the ui to set these settings?
[9:35pm] himazu: HTML form on a TWiki topic
[9:35pm] himazu: having the feature's script as action.
[9:35pm] PeterThoeny: so, edit all settings at a time, or one by one?
[9:36pm] himazu: one by one
[9:36pm] PeterThoeny: ok
[9:36pm] himazu: batch operation is done from command line using the script
[9:36pm] PeterThoeny: so there will be a page for site level, and one for each web?
[9:36pm] himazu: dump and restore are among those operations
[9:37pm] himazu: sort of.
[9:37pm] himazu: there is little need to have web interface for site information.
[9:38pm] himazu: i used to have one but it didn't do a lot of good.
[9:38pm] starshine: equal access for commandline and web <3
[9:38pm] himazu: so I got rid of it.
[9:38pm] PeterThoeny: looking forward to see the implementation
[9:38pm] himazu: for that, we need a good name.
[9:39pm] starshine: metaphor (/hides)
[9:39pm] PeterThoeny: so, web level settings are in a topic of that web?
[9:40pm] himazu: no
[9:40pm] PeterThoeny: if so i recommend to start the name with web... such as WebExtendedMeta,
WebExtraPreferences or the like
[9:41pm] PeterThoeny: ah, never mind
[9:41pm] himazu: the repository consists of SDBM files now
[9:41pm] PeterThoeny: so you have a single admin page to see & change settings in all webs?
[9:41pm] himazu: correct
[9:41pm] PeterThoeny: got it
[9:42pm] starshine: oooh  (but this could get really big, on a site with lots of webs)
[9:42pm] PeterThoeny: starshine:  likely a web selector
[9:42pm] PeterThoeny: anything else on this feature?
[9:42pm] starshine: yes
[9:43pm] starshine: a webselector sounds good.  PageTraitsStorage or something like that?  anyway
[9:43pm] himazu: it can be used for other purposes
[9:43pm] starshine: name or no name I like it
[9:43pm] himazu: I implemented an "act as" feature using the repository
[9:43pm] PeterThoeny: ok
[9:43pm] starshine: sudo for twiki!
[9:44pm] himazu: it's intended for TWiki admins but
[9:44pm] himazu: sometimes, to test access control
[9:44pm] himazu: for example, it's handy to be able to act as somebody else
[9:44pm] PeterThoeny: sneaky/necessary sysadmin feature
[9:45pm] himazu: besides, we are using two NFS directories to house web content
[9:45pm] himazu: so web metadata has "storage" attribute
[9:46pm] himazu: making it possible to have multiple DataDir and PubDir is an extension
[9:46pm] PeterThoeny: time check: +45 min
[9:46pm] himazu: on its own though
[9:47pm] PeterThoeny: shall we go to next feature?
[9:47pm] himazu: ssure
[9:48pm] PeterThoeny: i'd like to discuss VarTOPICTITLE and related TopicDisplayName
[9:48pm] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/VarTOPICTITLE prepares for TopicDisplayName
[9:48pm] PeterThoeny: idea is to have a nicer topic display name than the wikiword name
[9:49pm] starshine: I like
[9:49pm] PeterThoeny: already now most of the twiki apps i create have a "Title" form field
[9:49pm] PeterThoeny: if present, it is used for the "nice display name" of the topic
[9:49pm] starshine: we have many pages at my site with ...hard to pronounce names
[9:50pm] starshine: or alternately easy names that are too long to look like a good heading
[9:50pm] PeterThoeny: for example, the open support questions at
[9:50pm] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Support/AskedAndAssignedQuestions
[9:50pm] PeterThoeny: show the Title form field
[9:50pm] PeterThoeny: same for blog posts on twiki.org
[9:50pm] starshine: "DieDieWYSIWYGHowto" could stand a gentler name for example.
[9:51pm] PeterThoeny: so the proposal is to add a %TOPICTITLE% that resolves to the nice topic name
[9:51pm] himazu: i'm for it.
[9:51pm] PeterThoeny: first use Title filed if exist, else use TITLE pref setting, else use topic name
[9:52pm] himazu: partly because i'm doing a similar thing for a while.
[9:52pm] PeterThoeny: ah, good
[9:52pm] himazu: i'm using %STRUCTNAV_TOPICTITLE%
[9:52pm] PeterThoeny: most features follow the 7 day review period
[9:53pm] PeterThoeny: we can also decide to accept by release meeting
[9:53pm] himazu: what a coinsidence you picked TOPICTITLE name
[9:53pm] PeterThoeny: all for this feature?
[9:53pm] starshine: aye!
[9:53pm] PeterThoeny: if so i can toggle to acceptedbyreleasemeeting
[9:53pm] himazu: %STRUCTNAV_TOPICTITLE% is for a structure navigation plug-in I've been using
[9:54pm] himazu: and I plan to contribute to twiki.org
[9:54pm] PeterThoeny: ah, nice
[9:54pm] starshine:
[9:55pm] starshine: I like varTOPICTITLE because the idea is expressed very cleanly and it does
something a lot of people want
[9:55pm] starshine: my site has ...some decent number... of pages whose link name are machine
generated
[9:55pm] PeterThoeny: so, all standard topic reports (search, recent changes etc) will use links
like [[web.topic][topictitle]]
[9:55pm] starshine: so typeable, linkable, but barely readable
[9:55pm] PeterThoeny: yes
[9:56pm] PeterThoeny: so, once this is done, next step is
[9:56pm] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/TopicDisplayName
[9:57pm] PeterThoeny: which makes topictitle a full citizen: topic create, edit, rename will be
aware of topic title
[9:57pm] starshine: nod
[9:57pm] PeterThoeny: so for Var varTOPICTITLE, can we set to accepted by release meeting?
[9:57pm] PeterJones: Sorry I have to go. Nice following the discussion. Speak soon
[9:58pm] PeterThoeny: ok, thanks for stopping by pete
[9:58pm]  PeterJones left the chat room. (Quit: Page closed)
[9:58pm] PeterThoeny: time check: +58 min, we should wrap up soon too
[9:58pm] starshine: +1
[9:58pm]  himazu left the chat room. (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
[9:59pm] PeterThoeny: oh, we lost imazu-san
[9:59pm] PeterThoeny: ok, i toggle the status
[9:59pm] starshine: 21:51 < himazu> i'm for it.
[9:59pm]  himazu joined the chat room.
[10:00pm] starshine: imazu-san said yes 8 minutes ago, but he can say yes again now too
[10:00pm] himazu: I lost connection and but now i'm back
[10:00pm] himazu: yes
[10:01pm] PeterThoeny: ok
[10:01pm] PeterThoeny: himazu-san: it looks like your feature is also ready, e.g. accepted
[10:01pm] himazu: ok
[10:01pm] himazu: but i'll put more description
[10:02pm] PeterThoeny: so please toggle state
[10:02pm] himazu: given your questions
[10:02pm] PeterThoeny: yes please
[10:02pm] himazu: ok
[10:03pm] starshine: we covering any more stuff? PeterThoeny you seemed concerned about the time
[10:03pm] PeterThoeny: himazu:  how long shall we stay?
[10:03pm] PeterThoeny: 10 more min?
[10:04pm] himazu: sue
[10:04pm] himazu: sure
[10:04pm] PeterThoeny: i'd like to discuss one feature that is just an idea at this time:
[10:05pm] PeterThoeny: bring social into twiki
[10:06pm] PeterThoeny: there is a convergence of emterprise systems into social
[10:06pm] starshine: social how, like have shortform hotlinks to (twitter, facebook, wikipedia,
googleplus) etc?
[10:06pm] PeterThoeny: blog vendors add social featues
[10:06pm] starshine: or make some pages easier to be bloggy than purely wiki?
[10:07pm] starshine: like a "this was the original text. discuss" section that's managed by a page
owner?
[10:07pm] starshine: but the rest of the page wiki-able?
[10:07pm] PeterThoeny: same for wiki vendors, crm verndors, hr is vendors, file sharing vendors, etc
[10:07pm]  himazu left the chat room. (Quit: Leaving)
[10:07pm] starshine: ok, I'll propose a usage example, and you tell me how your idea would honor it
[10:08pm]  himazu joined the chat room.
[10:08pm] PeterThoeny: welcome back himazu-san
[10:08pm] PeterThoeny: so social can mean many things
[10:08pm] PeterThoeny: i think for twiki we can do that in phases
[10:08pm] starshine: in my gaming experience, a gaming forum thread often starts with a "reserved
space" discussing the real question
[10:08pm] starshine: people attach answers or complaints, bbs-style
[10:09pm] starshine: a maintainer or community team merge the best answers back to the top.
[10:09pm] PeterThoeny: initial phase could be just eye candy, e.g. pretty user profile pages,
pictures of users in search and other reports
[10:09pm] starshine: so having a "two part auth" power on a page
[10:09pm] starshine: where the first-part has access controlled by a limited team
[10:10pm] starshine: and the second-part is a less limited team (or everyone, or
everyone-minus-blacklisted-spammers)
[10:10pm] PeterThoeny: at this time i am just looking for ideas
[10:10pm] starshine: currently, to do this on a twiki, I would need to have an INCLUDE manage a
plain-text static page inclusion
[10:10pm] starshine: and separate rights to the include
[10:11pm] PeterThoeny: a later phase can add a social feed feature
[10:11pm] PeterThoeny: feed is created by users and by apps
[10:11pm] starshine: rss lets us subscribe to pages
[10:11pm] starshine: I think a lot of people don't use it, but the power exists
[10:11pm] PeterThoeny: at a later stage we could add social analytics
[10:12pm] starshine: "glass scrolling window" style view of site changes?  that could feel very
facebookish
[10:12pm] starshine: "we're looking at Now?"
[10:12pm] PeterThoeny: some facebookish like features would be good
[10:13pm] PeterThoeny: although there is a difference:
[10:13pm] PeterThoeny: main purpose of twiki is to get work done
[10:14pm] PeterThoeny: so goal is to tie the social features to actionable items
[10:14pm] PeterThoeny: i am still fuzzy on how that would work out
[10:14pm] PeterThoeny: but i have a hunch that this can be an important enhancement
[10:15pm] PeterThoeny: any ideas on this?
[10:15pm] starshine: wiki, or any other thing we can write on, is a tool.  come up with things we
can do, and people WILL use them.
[10:15pm] starshine: so, I think, if we come up with good usage examples that want the features you
have in mind
[10:16pm] starshine: we can implement a.... twiki showroom
[10:16pm] PeterThoeny: well, question is what tools are beneficial to get work done more effectively
[10:16pm] starshine: well ok, here's an example
[10:16pm] starshine: a non-twiki ability we have at our site, combines several bits of knowledge
[10:16pm] starshine: it tells when people update wiki pages
[10:17pm] PeterThoeny: himazu-san: is social something you find useful for your installation?
[10:17pm] starshine: it tells when pagers went off and mentions what ticket the pager made
[10:17pm] starshine: we use this thing, to get not just into twiki but exactly where we need to
inside it
[10:17pm] starshine: when things have gotten hot it's very good to us!
[10:17pm] himazu: so far, our TWiki has been involved with social things.
[10:18pm] starshine: has? what kind
[10:18pm] PeterThoeny: bringing social into twiki could mean build our own, or integrate an open
source solution, such as microblogging
[10:19pm] starshine: I don't think I know micro blogging much
[10:19pm] himazu: hansn't
[10:19pm] starshine: I do know people who have briefly tried blog software like wordpress or LJ and
felt lost
[10:19pm] PeterThoeny: starshine:  the system recommends what pages to update?
[10:19pm] starshine: tho they use wiki fine.
[10:20pm] starshine: it tells us things people have been updating, when, it shows the users pic next
to the change info
[10:20pm] starshine: today I know emily edited such and such. not (her userid), but a pic. actually
emily.
[10:20pm] PeterThoeny: microblogging such as yammer is good to keep up to date what is going on in
the org
[10:21pm] starshine: ok here's a thought
[10:21pm] starshine: we have twikidraw
[10:21pm] starshine: it lets us embed a scribble-able object.
[10:21pm] PeterThoeny: but issue is that it is transient like email, e.g gets lost after some time
[10:21pm] starshine: can we have something similar that lets us embed a comment-thread object?
[10:22pm] starshine: that feels "bbs-like" or "facebook [comment][like]"
[10:22pm] PeterThoeny: something different than %COMMENT% ?
[10:23pm] PeterThoeny: i'll create a brainstorming topic on twiki.org on the social twiki feature
[10:24pm] starshine: maybe. maybe not.  is there a page where this is used that I can see?
[10:25pm] PeterThoeny: any support question on twiki.org uses this feature
[10:25pm] PeterThoeny: such as
[10:25pm] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Support/SID-01448
[10:26pm] starshine: as written "Inserts an edit box into the page that allows users to type in and
save comments." this could be social, or not, depends on what it looks like
[10:26pm] PeterThoeny: time check" +86 min
[10:26pm] PeterThoeny: we should wrap up
[10:27pm] PeterThoeny: one key of social is a feed that aggregates posts from different sources
[10:27pm] starshine: if the things it added had a div block around them, they could be styled.
[10:27pm] starshine: nod.
[10:27pm] starshine: like a newspaper, almost.
[10:27pm] PeterThoeny: and either a symmetrical friend feature or a asymmetrical follow / follower
feature like in twitter
[10:28pm] PeterThoeny: ok, let's wrap up
[10:28pm] PeterThoeny: i'll post the log
[10:31pm] PeterThoeny: thanks starshine and himazu-san!
[10:31pm] starshine: make pages able to "subscribe" to other pages.  "if you liked this, 7 other
pages like it have been updated this week"
[10:31pm] starshine: it would not be the same as amazon's "if you bought, you might buy" because
the info for how it gets its "like" info another way
[10:31pm] starshine: but it can LOOK like it
[10:31pm] starshine: for the social scene looks are important
[10:32pm]  himazu left the chat room. (Quit: Leaving)
[10:32pm]  himazu joined the chat room.
[10:32pm] himazu: ?
[10:32pm] himazu: chat.freenode lost connection
[10:32pm] himazu: see you soon, PeterThoeny and starshine!
[10:33pm]  himazu left the chat room. (Client Quit)
[10:33pm] PeterThoeny: starshine:  that is an analytics feature that would be useful to add
[10:34pm] starshine: my point is the first feature would only *look* like analytics results
[10:35pm] starshine: if phrased well, it wouldn't even make people wonder if you were snooping
their view motives
[10:35pm] starshine: although on very busy twiki, view results could be used too.
[10:35pm] starshine: by having an admin 'subscribe' a page to another
[10:36pm] starshine: a link could be established declaring them similar enough to track together.
[10:37pm] starshine: anyway meeting is done
[10:37pm] starshine: thanks for stretching it