Date: April 26, 2012 10:31:56 PM PDT
Subject: JerusalemMeetingLog2012x04x27.txt

[2:56pm] tyatpi joined the chat room.
[7:00pm] spain joined the chat room.
[7:01pm] spain: just testing my connection -- will be back later.
[7:01pm] spain left the chat room. (Client Quit)
[8:57pm] knorton joined the chat room.
[8:58pm] mgulitz joined the chat room.
[9:00pm] PeterThoeny: time: +0min
[9:00pm] PeterThoeny: hi knorton, mgulitz, tyatpi
[9:00pm] knorton: hi peter
[9:01pm] mgulitz: hello peter
[9:01pm] PeterThoeny: hallo michael, guten morgen
[9:01pm] PeterThoeny: must be very early in germany
[9:02pm] PeterThoeny: are you an early bird or a night owl?
[9:03pm] mgulitz: today an earl bird
[9:04pm] Vicki joined the chat room.
[9:04pm] Vicki left the chat room. (Client Quit)
[9:04pm] PeterThoeny: thanks for getting up so early for this meeting
[9:04pm] PeterThoeny: ah, we had vicki here briefly
[9:04pm] Vicki joined the chat room.
[9:05pm] PeterThoeny: knorton and tyatpi: could you please introduce yourself?
[9:05pm] knorton: I'm Karen Norton, in San Jose CA.
[9:06pm] PeterThoeny: hi karen, nice to e-meet you
[9:06pm] PeterThoeny: i am in san jose too
[9:06pm] PeterThoeny: (not the costa rica one )
[9:07pm] knorton: yes, I just saw that in wikipedia
[9:07pm] Vicki: Hi Peter
[9:08pm] PeterThoeny: let's give it some more min, we miss regular ones like george trubisky
and hideyo imazu
[9:08pm] PeterThoeny: hi vicki!
[9:08pm] PeterThoeny: welcome back
[9:09pm] PeterThoeny: so we have 3 people here from san francisco bay area
[9:09pm] Vicki: Rich is here too, so 4 actually
[9:10pm] PeterThoeny: ah, hi rich
[9:10pm] PeterThoeny: we should go out for a dim sum again
[9:10pm] PeterThoeny: has been a long time
[9:11pm] Vicki: Announce a TWiki di, sum, that would be fun
[9:11pm] PeterThoeny: informal twiki dim sum sounds like a plan
[9:11pm] PeterThoeny: i'll announce one
[9:11pm] PeterThoeny: and later we can do also a twiki meetup again in the silicon valley
[9:12pm] PeterThoeny: time check: +11 min
[9:12pm] PeterThoeny: we should start soon, but wondering where the regulars are
[9:13pm] PeterThoeny: craig tobias and victor heredia also said that they will join
[9:13pm] PeterThoeny: victor will be here 1/2 hour late
[9:14pm] PeterThoeny: since we have new folks let's do a short self intro: where work, use
twiki for what (at work?), goals for twiki
[9:15pm] Vicki: I
[9:15pm] Vicki: will start, ok?
[9:15pm] PeterThoeny: sure
[9:16pm] Vicki: right now, looking for work; TWIki user since 2003; last 5+ years at Yahoo!.
I did general company-wide TWiki support, tutorials, training, apps...
[9:16pm] PeterThoeny: vicki and karen, nice to see women showing interest in the twiki community
[9:17pm] Vicki: Rich says he's a consultant, had worked w/ TWIki for several companies and uses
it for his ownprojects.
[9:17pm] PeterThoeny: vicki also helped out in the community with the newsletter in the past
[9:18pm] knorton: Karen Norton, Atmel Corp., twiki was recently deployed to general population
(was previously used only by engineers). It's being used for reference material. I'm one of
the more active contributors, creating and maintaining articles for my EDI group.
[9:18pm] PeterThoeny: nice!
[9:19pm] PeterThoeny: tyatpi: we have not heard from you
[9:20pm] PeterThoeny: i started twiki many years ago, helped deploy several large scale twikis,
now i am doing consulting, mainly on twiki stuff helping out companies
[9:20pm] PeterThoeny: time check: +30min
[9:21pm] PeterThoeny: agenda is at
http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/JerusalemReleaseMeeting2012x04x27
[9:21pm] PeterThoeny: proposed agenda:
[9:21pm] PeterThoeny: 1. Feature Requests for Jerusalem Release
[9:21pm] PeterThoeny: 2. Review Urgent and Not So Urgent Bugs
[9:21pm] PeterThoeny: 3. TWiki Foundation Discussion
[9:21pm] PeterThoeny: 4. Miscellaneous
[9:22pm] PeterThoeny: since we are missing the regulars we could just do a free form meeting
[9:22pm] PeterThoeny: what do you think?
[9:22pm] Vicki: FIne here...
[9:22pm] knorton: ok with me
[9:23pm] mgulitz: ok
[9:23pm] Vicki: Can we do #4 on the agenda?
[9:23pm] Vicki: what
[9:23pm] Vicki: 's happening?
[9:23pm] PeterThoeny: yes
[9:23pm] PeterThoeny: with what?
[9:24pm] Vicki: with TWiki FOundation?
[9:24pm] PeterThoeny: ah
[9:24pm] Vicki: twioki.net...
[9:24pm] Vicki: (unfamiliar keyboard)
[9:24pm] PeterThoeny: on twiki.net (the company) i can't really tell since i am no longer
an employee or officer
[9:24pm] PeterThoeny: time will tell what happens with the company
[9:24pm] Vicki: but it still exists without you?
[9:25pm] PeterThoeny: yes
[9:25pm] Vicki: I was not sure what was happening therte
[9:25pm] PeterThoeny: on my side, i am mainly doing consulting now, primarily twiki related,
but also web dev work in general
[9:26pm] PeterThoeny: now i have more time for twiki community work
[9:26pm] PeterThoeny: last few weeks i was working on marketing stuff, e.g. make twiki.org
more accessible
[9:26pm] PeterThoeny: for example, i realized that we did not have good screenshots available
[9:27pm] PeterThoeny: so i created http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/TWiki/TWikiScreenshots
[9:27pm] Vicki: I saw thouse. Good idea
[9:27pm] Vicki: although I think there was more n skins than I would have done
[9:27pm] PeterThoeny: took me a while to create all 29 screenshots
[9:27pm] Vicki: heh
[9:27pm] Vicki: been there
[9:27pm] knorton: yes, I've already asked my twiki admins how to create the filter for the
spreadsheet.
[9:28pm] PeterThoeny: they are now linked to prominently from the homepage
[9:28pm] Vicki: the parameterized variables looked Great!
[9:28pm] PeterThoeny: and it works
[9:28pm] PeterThoeny: we have around 200 views/day
[9:28pm] mgulitz: the screenshots of customized skins are really helpful when talking to customers
about twiki
[9:28pm] PeterThoeny: today already 246
[9:28pm] PeterThoeny: yes, they do
[9:28pm] Vicki: oh I understand the value; they just seemed a disproportionate number of slides
[9:28pm] PeterThoeny: especially useful to early evaluators as well
[9:29pm] Vicki: My training covers other features: webs, apps, plugins, variables, HTML, access...
[9:29pm] Vicki: skins to me are minor
[9:29pm] Vicki: in that set of features for enterprise
[9:29pm] PeterThoeny: yea, i struggled a bit, there is a balance on "short and sweet" and showing
capabilities
[9:29pm] PeterThoeny: "trouble" is that twiki has so many capabilities
[9:29pm] Vicki: but I know that some companies like to customize; (thankfully Yahoo! didn;'t)
[9:30pm] PeterThoeny: yes, some companies are very specific on branding
[9:30pm] PeterThoeny: i tend to agree on branding
[9:31pm] Vicki: Rich would like to see a mailing list for TWiki users...
[9:31pm] Vicki: (Vicki would too; we had one internal at Y!.)
[9:31pm] PeterThoeny: ah
[9:31pm] PeterThoeny: well, we have [twiki-dev] where users ask questions sometimes
[9:32pm] Vicki: yeahbut
[9:32pm] Vicki: we want twiki-users where devs sometimes answer
[9:32pm] PeterThoeny: personally i like to use twiki for support and brainstorming
[9:32pm] Vicki: it's intimidating for most users to get on a -dev list
[9:33pm] PeterThoeny: yes, i can see that there is value: low barrier to entry for those who are
used to mailing lists
[9:33pm] Vicki: R: TWiki isn't "conversational" for most people
[9:33pm] Vicki: and some of us "live" in EMail
[9:34pm] Vicki: email comes to me; I go to the web. But I understand. TWiki is like forums. A lot
of people like forums. (I always subscribe by email)
[9:34pm] Vicki: Maybe we need a plugin
[9:34pm] PeterThoeny: vicki/rich: twiki is a collaborative project, i recommend you create a topic
in the codev web on twiki.org to propose a [twiki-users] mailing list
[9:34pm] mgulitz: twiki has put almost an end to email at our company and for that we love it...
[9:35pm] Vicki: mgulitz - where do you work? (you did not introduce yourself)
[9:35pm] PeterThoeny: mailing lists we currently have:
[9:35pm] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/TWikiMailingLists
[9:36pm] Vicki: mguliz - don't peole still need to semnd email with the link to the topic?
[9:36pm] mgulitz: our company is currently moving from pur consulting to software development with
an own product. I introduced twiki a few ears ago in our company
[9:37pm] VictorHeredia joined the chat room.
[9:38pm] mgulitz: sure links are sent per email, but we have agreed to put information into topics,
blog areas or hot actions rather than email
[9:38pm] Vicki: for discsuions among groups, I absolutely see that as a win
[9:38pm] PeterThoeny: hi victor, welcome to the release meeting
[9:38pm] VictorHeredia: Hi all
[9:38pm] Vicki: do you blog in TWiki as well?
[9:39pm] mgulitz: I have an update on our success story on my todo list
[9:39pm] Vicki: I look forward to readin it
[9:39pm] PeterThoeny: VictorHeredia: we have karen norton from atmel, san jose; michael gulitz from
a consultancy/product company in germany; vicki brown/rich morin from s.f. bay area
[9:40pm] PeterThoeny: VictorHeredia could you give a short intro?
[9:41pm] VictorHeredia: I am Victor from E-Ecosystems, I have been using Twiki for 6 yrs.
[9:41pm] PeterThoeny: we have an informal meeting today because regulars like george t, hideyo i,
heather s are not here today
[9:41pm] VictorHeredia: I have a consulting company that focuses on empowering group collaboration
and learning in organizations
[9:41pm] Vicki: cool
[9:41pm] Vicki: where is that?
[9:42pm] VictorHeredia: Thank you to Peter for the invitation...
[9:42pm] PeterThoeny: victor is doing very cool stuff with twiki, using it as an app platform
[9:42pm] VictorHeredia: I am based in Northern CAlifornia but we do business mainly in Latinamerica
(Mexico and other countries)
[9:42pm] Vicki: my kind of thing
[9:43pm] Vicki: So only mgulitz is up at ewhat 5am?
[9:44pm] mgulitz: the sun doe not even shine... all grey
[9:44pm] PeterThoeny: victor: i will take this offline but i met a gentlemen from chile who works
with banks - i'll introduce you two
[9:45pm] VictorHeredia: Great!
[9:45pm] PeterThoeny: gray from rain?
[9:45pm] Vicki: VictorHeredia: RIch Morin asks if there is internationalization support needed for
doing biz in LatAm
[9:45pm] PeterThoeny: (his last name is also heredia)
[9:45pm] mgulitz: yes, all cloudy
[9:46pm] VictorHeredia: We do support directly in Spanish
[9:46pm] PeterThoeny: Vicki: by e-mail you mentioned that yo could resume the newsletter
[9:46pm] Vicki: yep.
[9:46pm] VictorHeredia: Our target is basically end users rather than progamers
[9:46pm] PeterThoeny: that is great, yes, please do!
[9:47pm] PeterThoeny: thank you for the offer to resume
[9:47pm] Vicki: we'll chat offline (off this ITC) then
[9:47pm] PeterThoeny: let me know if yo have any qestions
[9:47pm] PeterThoeny: yes, we can take the newsletter offline
[9:47pm] Vicki: material. WHat's changed in how you wanrt it published since I was last involved.
[9:48pm] PeterThoeny: we have plenty of material
[9:49pm] VictorHeredia: I will be looking forward to the next meeting and the discussion around the
TWiki Foundation iniciative
[9:49pm] Vicki: all acquired since I was last involved? (I hope not)
[9:49pm] PeterThoeny: question is how far we want to go back with blog articles, and if we want to
do in batches or not to catch up
[9:49pm] Vicki: we could talk about the TWiki FOundation now
[9:49pm] VictorHeredia: Ok perfect
[9:50pm] PeterThoeny: yes, let's talk a bit about the foundation
[9:50pm] knorton: Peter, everyone, I've enjoyed "listening", and thanks for inviting me, but I have
to leave now. Have a good evening/day!
[9:50pm] PeterThoeny: thanks for stopping by karen
[9:50pm] PeterThoeny: see you next time
[9:50pm] knorton left the chat room.
[9:50pm] PeterThoeny: and possibly at a dim sum
[9:51pm] PeterThoeny: on foundation we first want to learn from companies what they value on twiki
and where/how a foundation could help them
[9:51pm] PeterThoeny: so we first do a survey
[9:51pm] PeterThoeny: draft of survey:
http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/TWikiFoundationSurvey2012
[9:52pm] PeterThoeny: we wanted to finalize today, george is driving the survey
[9:52pm] PeterThoeny: as for foundation, we track at
[9:52pm] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/TWikiFoundation
[9:53pm] PeterThoeny: 1. do research
[9:53pm] PeterThoeny: 2. decide if to join a foundation or to create one
[9:53pm] PeterThoeny: 3. join or incorporate
[9:53pm] PeterThoeny: 4. define initial structure where companies and people can donate money & how
to allocate that money
[9:53pm] PeterThoeny: we have done some initial research
[9:53pm] PeterThoeny: my homework: look into apache foundation and wikimedia foundation
[9:54pm] PeterThoeny: the latter one is just to learn about open source foundation
[9:54pm] PeterThoeny: the former one could be a potential foundation for us
[9:54pm] Vicki: agreed on Apache foundation
[9:55pm] mgulitz: our company is very interested in the foundation plans and we can imagine to take
part in some way...
[9:55pm] PeterThoeny: apache foundation would actually be a pretty good fir for us because they
have many projects targeting the enterprise space
[9:55pm] Vicki: Rich says: they're big on formality and process
[9:55pm] PeterThoeny: ok, mgulitz what value do you want to get our of a foundation for your org?
[9:55pm] Vicki: is that good or bad? depends
[9:56pm] PeterThoeny: "good fit" i wanted to say
[9:56pm] PeterThoeny: also for you victor, what value do you hope to get our of a foundation?
[9:56pm] Vicki: certain chat typos are easy to guess : 0
[9:57pm] PeterThoeny: "get out of" (i can't type tonight)
[9:57pm] Vicki: a Foundation could fund development efforts that no one wants to fund individually…
and ensure the result is OS
[9:58pm] Vicki: (something that was a real problem at Y!)
[9:58pm] PeterThoeny: on apache foundation, there might be a showstopper for us: gpl is not apache
license, and they require projects to use apache license
[9:58pm] Vicki: e.g., continuous integration tools for admins
[9:58pm] VictorHeredia: I totally agree. There are some dev projects that need funding
[9:58pm] PeterThoeny: personally i am ok, but we'd need to get ok from the current copyright
holders
[9:59pm] PeterThoeny: yes, funding specific projects is one goal
[9:59pm] VictorHeredia: I think that and app and plug in market place may be developed. Funds
will be develop to jump start the critical mass of apps and developers to make the market place
sustainable
[10:00pm] PeterThoeny: yes, i see this as the biggest benefit: a foundation helps grow the eco-system
[10:00pm] PeterThoeny: once big enough it feeds itself
[10:00pm] VictorHeredia: I think that TWiki is at a critical point. The TWiki ecosystems needs to
grow.
[10:00pm] PeterThoeny: so building up the app marketplace is key
[10:01pm] Vicki: a foundation could help fund meetings of developers
[10:01pm] VictorHeredia: For now it has been mainly a developer community
[10:01pm] PeterThoeny: twiki today has a strong brand, many users, but way to small dev community
[10:01pm] Vicki: (and/or meetings of users)
[10:02pm] VictorHeredia: I think that creating the bridge with the end users (organizations and
companies) that use the technology is critical
[10:02pm] PeterThoeny: yes, agreed
[10:02pm] VictorHeredia: I think that TWiki has not crossed the chasm yet
[10:03pm] Vicki: has it jumped the sh^w
[10:03pm] PeterThoeny: time check: +62 min
[10:03pm] PeterThoeny: let;s continue
[10:03pm] VictorHeredia: Is is still on the side of the highend developers
[10:03pm] Vicki: meaning plugin devs not app devs? or… what?
[10:04pm] PeterThoeny: what do you mean by side of high end devs?
[10:04pm] VictorHeredia: I think that in the end the growth of any application or tech development
has to do with tecnology adoption
[10:05pm] VictorHeredia: We need to make TWiki a more user friendly platform
[10:05pm] PeterThoeny: agreed
[10:05pm] VictorHeredia: THe idea of TWiki is amazing but is still mainly adopted by developers
[10:05pm] Vicki: without losing power
[10:05pm] Vicki: PBWIki is "user friendly".
[10:05pm] Vicki: but dumb
[10:05pm] PeterThoeny: since 2008 we made a lot of progress on making twiki more accessible to
non-technical users; we still have to go way more
[10:06pm] mgulitz: this is were easy skin customization comes in...
[10:06pm] PeterThoeny: sometimes actually it is better to dumb down the ui, but leave the power 
in there for power users
[10:06pm] VictorHeredia: If we can enhance the idea of this technology as a true enabler of
organizational processes in a simple way, organizations will see more value in the platform and
adoption would even be greater
[10:07pm] PeterThoeny: one area that needs work: point and click access control
[10:07pm] PeterThoeny: and another one: review/simplify the skin
[10:07pm] VictorHeredia: In other words, the Foundation can fund some dev projects in the technical
part
[10:07pm] VictorHeredia: but also developments in the methodology of using the technology
[10:08pm] Vicki: better logging
[10:08pm] VictorHeredia: I think that this part is very interesting for organizations
[10:08pm] Vicki: people want to know how many views a page got… for ANY page
[10:08pm] Vicki: and dashboards. Program managers and people managers LOVE dashboards.
[10:08pm] PeterThoeny: vicki: yes that can be done (should be ot of the way though, e.g. not
distract)
[10:09pm] Vicki: Engineers just pour in content. often in HTML
[10:09pm] VictorHeredia: One are that will require a lot of investment is for example, to develop
the interfases or plug ins to connect with mobile devices
[10:09pm] Vicki: no, not distracting but easy to get to. How many views was one of the most popular
questions I got
[10:09pm] PeterThoeny: vicki: not sure if you have seen, twiki-5.1 has now nice auto-updated site
stats,
[10:09pm] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Main/SiteStatistics
[10:10pm] Vicki: I saw the slide. Didnt look deeper,
[10:10pm] Vicki: I'll check and see if it matches my list of wishes for logging
[10:10pm] VictorHeredia: Going back to the Foundation thing, I think that the Foundation can help
fund development, and help develop methodologies to implement collaborative technologies in the
workplace
[10:11pm] PeterThoeny: i like that idea
[10:11pm] VictorHeredia: There is a lot of technology out there
[10:11pm] VictorHeredia: but is not easy to deploy it broadly in a successful way.
[10:12pm] Vicki: Rich says: the web is moving more & more to client side technologies and that
there may be ways for TWIki to take advantage of thast
[10:12pm] PeterThoeny: open source dev methodology can also be applied to documentation
[10:12pm] PeterThoeny: e.g. we could define a framework for tech writers
[10:12pm] Vicki: please don't say "Agile"
[10:13pm] Vicki: a lot of tech writers like TWiki
[10:13pm] VictorHeredia: We need to support effots of the end users, meaning the learning, sales...
marketing areas, who are the ones who are the ones paying for the applications and
implementations.
[10:13pm] PeterThoeny: yes, some companies use twiki to author end users docs
[10:13pm] Vicki: better tools for turning wiki pages into PDFs etc, printing "chapters" in "book
form"
[10:14pm] PeterThoeny: either for pdf publishing, or directly publicly accessible twiki
[10:14pm] Vicki: VictorHeredia: my end users were tech writers, project managers, and engineers.
[10:14pm] PeterThoeny: such as: http://docs.cpanel.net/twiki/bin/view/AllDocumentation - end user
documentation of cpanel software
[10:15pm] PeterThoeny: anything else on foundation?
[10:15pm] Vicki: the survey is supposed to be "final" today?
[10:15pm] mgulitz: the foundation must offer a clear vision of twiki, a road map and development
goals - this is important for companies who want to use twiki.
[10:15pm] PeterThoeny: i recommend to review the survey draft and revise it, or add your feedback
in the comment section
[10:16pm] Vicki: it's… not really a survey for review yet. IOt's more of a plan for a survey
[10:16pm] Vicki: mgulitz: good
[10:16pm] PeterThoeny: i have another question:
[10:16pm] PeterThoeny: does irc work for you for the release meeting?
[10:17pm] Vicki: as opposed to… what?
[10:17pm] PeterThoeny: imho irc is an archaic tool
[10:17pm] Vicki: I use it in Adium which makes it less archaic
[10:17pm] Vicki: but… what alternatives?
[10:17pm] Vicki: I LOVE the automatic transcript.
[10:17pm] PeterThoeny: well, needs a client install (although there are web interfaces as well)
[10:18pm] Vicki: I loathe telephone conference calls
[10:18pm] mgulitz: I am not a frequent chatter so it is a bit hard to read and write answers
quickly
[10:18pm] VictorHeredia: I have virtual rooms with audio, chat, slide show, and other tools
[10:18pm] PeterThoeny: i am wondering if there is a web based tool that has good community chat
[10:18pm] Vicki: and loggin
[10:18pm] Vicki: logging is critical
[10:19pm] Vicki: (I have no recommendations; I prefer desktop tools myself)
[10:19pm] PeterThoeny: so, for some consulting projects we use skype group chat, always on
[10:19pm] PeterThoeny: that works really nice
[10:19pm] Vicki: I assume from this that Skype has a web-based thingie?
[10:19pm] PeterThoeny: but issue is that it is not open in a sense where you can communicate a url
to join
[10:20pm] Vicki: 'cause otherwise you need to install a client
[10:20pm] Vicki: one problem with things liek Skype is that some companies explicitly block it
[10:20pm] Vicki: I don;t know if anyone blocks IRC ("old" tech has its value)
[10:20pm] PeterThoeny: well, yes, skype is not web based, but it is so universally used by the
twiki target group that we could use it, but the not open join option is a show stopper
[10:21pm] PeterThoeny: VictorHeredia: your platform sounds promising
[10:21pm] PeterThoeny: could you explain a bit?
[10:21pm] VictorHeredia: what would work for me is to have in TWiki in the agenda, some powerful
questions for discussion so that we can prepare or even initiate the discussion first
[10:21pm] Vicki: fyi: mibbit.com is web based IRC
[10:21pm] VictorHeredia: We have deveolped a webconferencing platform
[10:22pm] PeterThoeny: on irc, hideyo-san in japan can't access irc from work, so he takes his ipad
along
[10:22pm] mgulitz: oh... 7:20 I have to leave now... very interesting meeting today- see you soon
[10:22pm] VictorHeredia: we just relased a java cient, has a pc client, a mac client and a Iphone
client
[10:22pm] PeterThoeny: but even with ipad, his connection is flakey
[10:22pm] Vicki: from work can be a problem for a lot of people
[10:22pm] VictorHeredia: I could opern a room for TWiki, people could check it out and see if this
could be a possibility.
[10:22pm] PeterThoeny: thanks michael! see you next time (if you can get up that early)
[10:23pm] PeterThoeny: thanks for the offer victor!
[10:23pm] mgulitz left the chat room. (Quit: Verlassend)
[10:23pm] VictorHeredia: I will contact you Peter to have access to a room
[10:23pm] Vicki: time to end here too?
[10:23pm] PeterThoeny: yes, i think we can wrap up
[10:24pm] PeterThoeny: time check: +84 min
[10:24pm] Vicki: ok. I'll send you a note about the newsletter
[10:24pm] PeterThoeny: sounds good
[10:24pm] PeterThoeny: in case you use skype, i am at peterthoeny
[10:24pm] Vicki: bye then
[10:24pm] VictorHeredia: Good to meet you and thanks for the invitation Peter
[10:24pm] Vicki: ok (I have it.)
[10:24pm] PeterThoeny: bye vicki and rich!
[10:25pm] Vicki left the chat room. (Quit: Leaving.)
[10:25pm] PeterThoeny: thanks VictorHeredia for stopping by
[10:25pm] VictorHeredia left the chat room. (Quit: Page closed)
[10:25pm] PeterThoeny: hope to see you all next time