From: Peter Thoeny Date: March 15, 2012 10:26:18 PM PDT To: Peter Thoeny Subject: JerusalemMeetingLog2012x03x16.txt [8:53pm]  GeorgeTrubisky joined the chat room. [8:57pm] PeterThoeny: hi george [8:57pm] GeorgeTrubisky: hi peter [8:58pm] GeorgeTrubisky: hey check this out [8:58pm] PeterThoeny: what is new? [8:58pm] GeorgeTrubisky: http://www.cloudbees.com/jenkins-enterprise-by-cloudbees-features-wikitext-descriptions-plugin.cb [8:58pm] GeorgeTrubisky: they support TWiki markup [8:58pm] PeterThoeny: looking... [8:58pm] GeorgeTrubisky: cloud bees is an interesting place [8:59pm] GeorgeTrubisky: commercial but lots of open source involvement [8:59pm] GeorgeTrubisky: ever heard of them? [9:00pm] PeterThoeny: never heard of them [9:00pm] PeterThoeny: interesting that they dont want html [9:00pm] GeorgeTrubisky: some kind of security concern [9:01pm] PeterThoeny: btw, i just enabled timeline on our peninsula swiss club fb page, http://www.facebook.com/peninsulaswissclub [9:01pm] PeterThoeny: timeline looks good on fb pages [9:02pm] GeorgeTrubisky: I use jenkins at safeway, but everything is within the company intranet [9:02pm] PeterThoeny: yea, cross site scripting concern [9:02pm] GeorgeTrubisky: timeline has mixed reviews [9:02pm] PeterThoeny: there are ways to mitigate this even with html [9:02pm] GeorgeTrubisky: ic [9:04pm] PeterThoeny: hideyo-san excused himself from the meeting [9:04pm] GeorgeTrubisky: saw that [9:05pm] PeterThoeny: gmt time change due to summer savings time change resulted in a scheduling conflict [9:05pm] GeorgeTrubisky: so no summer saving time change in Japan? [9:06pm] PeterThoeny: i can't remember [9:06pm] PeterThoeny: well, likely different time of change [9:06pm] PeterThoeny: europe did not change yet [9:06pm] GeorgeTrubisky: how long did you live there? [9:06pm] PeterThoeny: so our meeting is now even one hour earlier than before [9:07pm] PeterThoeny: in japan about 8 years (all together) [9:07pm] GeorgeTrubisky: long time [9:07pm] PeterThoeny: yep, was fun time [9:08pm] GeorgeTrubisky: just you and me it appears…. [9:09pm] PeterThoeny: hmm [9:09pm] PeterThoeny: time check: +9 min [9:09pm] PeterThoeny: not sure what more i can do to attract contributors [9:09pm] PeterThoeny: i already lobby so much [9:10pm] GeorgeTrubisky: yes, that is one of the criteria I was reading about for eclipse [9:10pm] PeterThoeny: also with people who ask support on twiki.org [9:10pm] PeterThoeny: agenda is at http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/JerusalemReleaseMeeting2012x03x16 [9:10pm] GeorgeTrubisky: they want committers and contributors as part of the process [9:10pm] PeterThoeny: but since we are just two we can make it free form [9:11pm] GeorgeTrubisky: sounds good [9:11pm] GeorgeTrubisky: the Google summer of code is a great idea…too bad we missed it this year [9:11pm] PeterThoeny: we can eye that next year [9:11pm] GeorgeTrubisky: Google pays developers to work on open source projects [9:12pm] GeorgeTrubisky: students mostly…not much pay [9:12pm] PeterThoeny: i submitted a talk at oscon, don't know yet if accepted [9:12pm] GeorgeTrubisky: on what? [9:12pm] PeterThoeny: oscon is a good oppy to recruit folks [9:13pm] PeterThoeny: title of talk: Structured Wikis at Work - Enterprise 2.0 in Action [9:13pm] PeterThoeny: "Learn from the founder of TWiki, a leading open source enterprise wiki how to best deploy a wiki at the workplace. Learn also how a structured wiki can automate your workflows and bring Enterprise 2.0 into the workplace. Developers can use the TML (TWiki Markup Language) to quickly create wiki applications, such as inventory systems, contact lists, team dashboards and more." [9:15pm] GeorgeTrubisky: ic…your stump speech [9:15pm] GeorgeTrubisky: where is it held? [9:15pm] PeterThoeny: usually in portland oregaon [9:15pm] PeterThoeny: "oregon" [9:16pm] PeterThoeny: have you seen? i posted a new plugin [9:17pm] GeorgeTrubisky: really?  the email one? [9:17pm] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Plugins/SendMailPlugin [9:17pm] PeterThoeny: this is a consulting engagement for a client [9:18pm] PeterThoeny: i designed it to be used in different ways [9:18pm] GeorgeTrubisky: great. [9:19pm] PeterThoeny: primary use case is to send an e-mail when a commentplugin based form is submitted [9:19pm] PeterThoeny: instead of adding e-mail feature to commentplugin i though tit is more useful to have a new plugin that can be used for other things [9:20pm] PeterThoeny: currently it supports: [9:20pm] PeterThoeny:     Send E-mail on Topic View [9:20pm] PeterThoeny:     Send E-mail on Topic Creation [9:20pm] PeterThoeny:     Send E-mail from CommentPlugin Form [9:20pm] GeorgeTrubisky: your always thinking about the engineering [9:20pm] PeterThoeny: with an enhancement it could be also: [9:20pm] PeterThoeny:     Send E-mail on Topic Save [9:21pm] PeterThoeny: i am suddenly busy with consulting, two other urgent things going on right now [9:21pm] PeterThoeny: so i had limited time [9:22pm] GeorgeTrubisky: good timing, yes? [9:22pm] PeterThoeny: and could not yet research on apache foundation [9:22pm] PeterThoeny: yes, good timing [9:22pm] GeorgeTrubisky: ic.  Well, eclipse has a very detail process to go through [9:23pm] GeorgeTrubisky: our challenges: [9:23pm] PeterThoeny: listening [9:23pm] GeorgeTrubisky: Enough developers [9:23pm] GeorgeTrubisky: collaborations with other eclipse projects [9:24pm] GeorgeTrubisky: a specific effort, although your TML apps market place would fit that [9:24pm] PeterThoeny: i think eclipse is a good project to study, but not the best fit to join [9:24pm] GeorgeTrubisky: yes, I agree [9:25pm] PeterThoeny: eclipse can be an inspiration for us [9:25pm] GeorgeTrubisky: I think getting some tie to the corporate companies that currently use Twiki is key [9:25pm] PeterThoeny: they have very much a corporate focus [9:25pm] GeorgeTrubisky: I'm sure you have thought of this [9:26pm] PeterThoeny: exacly [9:26pm] GeorgeTrubisky: you are in a better position for this, now that your consulting again… again, nothing I'm sure you haven't thought of [9:26pm] PeterThoeny: so, defining a structure that is inviting to corporations is key [9:27pm] PeterThoeny: thinking of this, it might be useful to conduct a survey with corporate users to find out what value they see in a twiki foundation [9:28pm] GeorgeTrubisky: yes.  At Safeway, we have an stand-alone architecture group that designated "target" technologies, patterns, etc [9:28pm] PeterThoeny: yes, companies have special groups to set technology standards [9:28pm] PeterThoeny: some companies call this the cto office [9:29pm] GeorgeTrubisky: any new projects must get there buy-in or face lots more reviews [9:29pm] GeorgeTrubisky: their [9:30pm] PeterThoeny: yes [9:30pm] GeorgeTrubisky: I'm sure you have a list of companies running TWiki [9:30pm] PeterThoeny: long list [9:30pm] GeorgeTrubisky: really?  just curious, about how many? [9:30pm] GeorgeTrubisky: 50, 100, more? [9:30pm] PeterThoeny: hold on... [9:33pm] PeterThoeny: i have a list of almost 500 public and semi public twiki sites [9:33pm] PeterThoeny: the twiki installation directory on twiki.org lists about 600 [9:33pm] PeterThoeny: we estimate about 50k organizations to use twiki [9:33pm] PeterThoeny: so i have enough contacts to ask for a survey [9:34pm] PeterThoeny: what do ou think of a survey? [9:34pm] GeorgeTrubisky: so what could you use help with? [9:34pm] GeorgeTrubisky: for the survey [9:35pm] PeterThoeny: come up with questions (collaboratively), then create surveymonkey survey [9:35pm] PeterThoeny: there are other survey sites as well [9:37pm] GeorgeTrubisky: ok, I know a few software architects, I'll ask about wiki's [9:38pm] PeterThoeny: i just created a placeholder topic, http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/TWikiFoundationSurvey2012 [9:38pm] PeterThoeny: let's add questions tehre [9:38pm] GeorgeTrubisky: right now, everything is about repeatable patterns [9:38pm] GeorgeTrubisky: ok [9:39pm] GeorgeTrubisky: I told you the story about how Safeway ended up with Media-Wiki instead of TWiki, didn't I? [9:39pm] GeorgeTrubisky: the project wanted to go with TWiki [9:39pm] PeterThoeny: oh [9:39pm] PeterThoeny: what were the dynamics? [9:40pm] GeorgeTrubisky: but the build engineers knew about installing MediaWiki but not TWiki [9:40pm] GeorgeTrubisky: before my time [9:41pm] PeterThoeny: that is very typical: familiarity and personal preference play a big role [9:41pm] GeorgeTrubisky: open source was very new to Safeway back then….about 2003 [9:41pm] PeterThoeny: more so than suitability / feature set [9:41pm] GeorgeTrubisky: yes, the project lead was pretty unhappy [9:42pm] GeorgeTrubisky: mediawiki is very limited feature wise [9:42pm] PeterThoeny: well, mediawiki is very good on what it is designed for [9:42pm] GeorgeTrubisky: just a thought….mediawiki has its own foundation [9:42pm] PeterThoeny: and, yes, lacks many things if used in a corporate setting [9:43pm] GeorgeTrubisky: I live with that every day [9:43pm] PeterThoeny: ah, good idea, i can ask my wikipedia connections [9:43pm] PeterThoeny: let me take this as an action item [9:44pm] GeorgeTrubisky: they have a well thought out marketing campaign….but our users base is corporate [9:45pm] PeterThoeny: marketing is very important in a corporate setting as well [9:45pm] PeterThoeny: we can do much better in the marketing department [9:45pm] PeterThoeny: [9:46pm] GeorgeTrubisky: well, what is our audience? [9:46pm] PeterThoeny: on marketing, two types: [9:46pm] PeterThoeny: 1. evaluators who research a suitable tool and make a recommendation [9:47pm] PeterThoeny: 2. managers who decide on tool [9:47pm] PeterThoeny: a while back we did some good work on personas [9:47pm] PeterThoeny: are you familiar with personas [9:47pm] GeorgeTrubisky: not really [9:48pm] PeterThoeny: good marketing tool to understand customers [9:48pm] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/Personas [9:48pm] PeterThoeny: sorry, [9:49pm] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/Persona [9:50pm] GeorgeTrubisky: reading [9:51pm] PeterThoeny: and here are the twiki specific personas we created: [9:51pm] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/WebPageAudience [9:51pm] GeorgeTrubisky: so you construct a persona to understand who to target the message for? [9:51pm] PeterThoeny: this is good stuff [9:51pm] PeterThoeny: yes, that is the basic idea [9:52pm] PeterThoeny: as a team it is good to define a persona, and talk about the needs the persona has as if he/she is a real person [9:52pm] GeorgeTrubisky: yes, I see the value [9:53pm] GeorgeTrubisky: maybe I could use this for my community group at safeway [9:53pm] PeterThoeny: yes, i can recommend this [9:53pm] GeorgeTrubisky: been a struggle understanding how to foster the CI community [9:54pm] GeorgeTrubisky: continuous integration=IC [9:54pm] GeorgeTrubisky: CI [9:54pm] GeorgeTrubisky: on a side note, I'm going to use IRC for my next community meeting [9:54pm] GeorgeTrubisky: back to the future [9:54pm] GeorgeTrubisky: [9:55pm] GeorgeTrubisky: anyways, I get off topic [9:55pm] PeterThoeny: we are in an unstructured meeting [9:55pm] PeterThoeny: for a closed group i found skype group chat useful [9:55pm] GeorgeTrubisky: so we should use the topic http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/TWikiFoundationSurvey2012 for the persona [9:55pm] GeorgeTrubisky: ? [9:56pm] PeterThoeny: well, keep the two main personas in mind when coming up with the questions [9:57pm] GeorgeTrubisky: ok [9:57pm] PeterThoeny: let's make as a goal to finalize the questions by next meeting [9:58pm] PeterThoeny: time check: +58 min [9:58pm] PeterThoeny: shall we wrap up? [9:58pm] GeorgeTrubisky: yes.  One quick questions [9:58pm] PeterThoeny: sure [9:58pm] GeorgeTrubisky: using IRC to run a meeting, any reference materials you can point me to? [9:59pm] GeorgeTrubisky: I know the style you use here….but I was wondering where you learned it [10:00pm] GeorgeTrubisky: most likely just pick it up from years of usage, yes? [10:00pm] PeterThoeny: the page i usually go back to is http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/TWikiIRC [10:00pm] PeterThoeny: personally i find irc more complicated than it needs to be (usability issues) [10:00pm] PeterThoeny: if skype chat would support open groups i'd prefer skype [10:01pm] GeorgeTrubisky: good to know.  One think about IRC or Skype…built in minutes of the meeting…or the raw material for them [10:01pm] PeterThoeny: by open group i mean a public place where anyone could join a skype group [10:01pm] GeorgeTrubisky: ok, well I'll let you go.  Good to know your getting some consulting gigs [10:01pm] GeorgeTrubisky: yes [10:02pm] PeterThoeny: actually, one more quick thing [10:02pm] GeorgeTrubisky: with the IRC, I have to run within the Safeway Intranet, so Skype won't work [10:02pm] GeorgeTrubisky: installed an IRC server [10:02pm] GeorgeTrubisky: sure [10:02pm] PeterThoeny: i am resuming with creating term topics in the codev web [10:03pm] PeterThoeny: ah, is skype blocked? [10:03pm] GeorgeTrubisky: access to the internet is heavily filtered and slow [10:03pm] GeorgeTrubisky: any of the internet IRC servers….way to much lag [10:04pm] PeterThoeny: for your internal group you could google for "irc alternatives" to see if there are other tools you could install internally (or use a web based service) [10:04pm] GeorgeTrubisky: it wasn't hard to install my own IRC server…just did that on my laptop for the prototype [10:04pm] PeterThoeny: in fact, for web based, you could look into yammer [10:05pm] GeorgeTrubisky: ok, I'll do that, but for the many to many communication I'm trying to foster, I think IRC will work [10:05pm] PeterThoeny: installing a tool is one thing, usability for all users is another thing [10:05pm] PeterThoeny: i'd focus on usability [10:05pm] GeorgeTrubisky: yes, good point.  They have to install an IRC client for example. [10:06pm] GeorgeTrubisky: But many of our developers, english is a second language, they actually prefer chat [10:06pm] PeterThoeny: installing an app is an extra step, but has the advantage of giving alerts when something happens [10:07pm] PeterThoeny: with a pure web based thing it is hard to get alerted [10:07pm] PeterThoeny: for example, it is easy to miss a fb chat [10:07pm] GeorgeTrubisky: I looked as a web based IRC client/servers….the problem was with the lag because of the internet restrictions [10:07pm] GeorgeTrubisky: miss a fb? [10:08pm] PeterThoeny: facebook [10:08pm] GeorgeTrubisky: ah [10:08pm] GeorgeTrubisky: yes [10:09pm] PeterThoeny: back to terms, i started to submit some, such as http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/NoSQL [10:09pm] PeterThoeny: i found it useful to have terms readily available on twiki.org [10:09pm] GeorgeTrubisky: ic [10:09pm] PeterThoeny: i plan to create MongoDB topic and other ones [10:10pm] PeterThoeny: feel free to contribute too, e.g. terms you are interested in [10:10pm] GeorgeTrubisky: so the actions for next 2 weeks is the survey, correct? [10:10pm] PeterThoeny: yes [10:10pm] GeorgeTrubisky: add to the survey topic, come up with questions based on the 2 persona's [10:11pm] GeorgeTrubisky: ok, will do.  Nice chatting with you peter…oh one more thing [10:11pm] PeterThoeny: and for me to found out about apache foundation and wikimedia foundation [10:11pm] GeorgeTrubisky: I'm leaving the country for the last week in March [10:11pm] PeterThoeny: oh, sounds exciting! [10:12pm] GeorgeTrubisky: will be down in Mexico on a short term mission trip [10:12pm] GeorgeTrubisky: I don't think I'll have internet connection, but I might, will have to see [10:12pm] GeorgeTrubisky: I'll try to join the meeting, but just a heads up [10:13pm] GeorgeTrubisky: yes, its exciting, my 14 year old son is coming with me [10:13pm] PeterThoeny: don't worry, enjoy your trip! [10:13pm] PeterThoeny: ah, that is a good bonding experience [10:13pm] GeorgeTrubisky: Actually, the time might work out well, but again, that is where I will be [10:13pm] GeorgeTrubisky: I'll send you our blog site [10:14pm] GeorgeTrubisky: ok, peter, take care [10:15pm] PeterThoeny: ok, nice chatting with you [10:15pm] PeterThoeny: have fun in mexico! [10:15pm] PeterThoeny: ttyl [10:15pm] PeterThoeny: i'll post the log [10:17pm]  GeorgeTrubisky left the chat room. ("Leaving...")