Date: December 1, 2011 11:10:41 PM PST
Subject: JerusalemMeetingLog2011x12x02.txt

[07:34pm]  himazu joined the chat room.
[07:58pm]  GeorgeTrubisky joined the chat room.
[07:58pm] GeorgeTrubisky: hey
[08:01pm] himazu: hi
[08:20pm] GeorgeTrubisky: Hi Himazu, we will start the release meeting at the top of the
hour....about 40 minutes
[08:21pm] himazu: sure
[09:00pm]  Phillip1 joined the chat room.
[09:00pm] PeterThoeny: ...back from party
[09:00pm] Phillip1: Hello all
[09:00pm] PeterThoeny: party is still going on upstairs
[09:00pm] PeterThoeny: i will miss some dancing...
[09:00pm] GeorgeTrubisky: hi peter
[09:01pm] PeterThoeny: hi phillip, george, hideyo-san!
[09:01pm] himazu: hi
[09:01pm] PeterThoeny: twiki inc is located in a high tech incubation center
[09:01pm] PeterThoeny: tonight is a holiday party
[09:02pm] himazu: ah cool
[09:02pm] PeterThoeny: you know the place himazu
[09:03pm] himazu: sure
[09:03pm] PeterThoeny: just in case i get bored (not really) i have some sangria with me
[09:05pm] PeterThoeny: a few other people mention that they would join:  chengappa (india),
pete jones (switzerland), craig (usa)
[09:05pm] PeterThoeny: lets give a few more minutes
[09:06pm] PeterThoeny: but in mean time, let's introduce us to each other:  name, location,
what use twiki for or what working on twiki
[09:07pm] Phillip1: Hi all, I am Phillip, come from Shenzhen,China.
[09:07pm] Phillip1: Engineering Project Manager,
[09:07pm] GeorgeTrubisky: George, from San Francisco Bay area, been serving as TWiki release
manager for the past couple of releases
[09:08pm] Phillip1: Glad to know u , George.
[09:08pm] himazu: I'm Imazu. Attending from Tokyo and connecting from iPad.
[09:08pm] PeterThoeny: peter, silicon valley (originally from switzerland), tinkering with twiki
[09:08pm] PeterThoeny: ah, himazu, what irc do you use on ipad?
[09:09pm] PeterThoeny: we have an ipad at home (i won one at an oracle conference)
[09:09pm] himazu: I've been managing Morgan Stanley's TWiki installation for the past 4 years.
[09:10pm] PeterThoeny: imazu-san wrote a nice success story of twiki on twiki.org. thank you
again!
[09:10pm] PeterThoeny: time check:  +10 min, let's start
[09:11pm] PeterThoeny: agenda at http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/JerusalemReleaseMeeting2011x12x02
[09:11pm] PeterThoeny: 1. Feature Requests for Jerusalem Release
[09:11pm] PeterThoeny: 2. Review TWiki Governance
[09:11pm] PeterThoeny: 3. Miscellaneous
[09:11pm] Phillip1: I am new comer to Twiki. Because I am learning Perl, I find twiki.
[09:11pm] PeterThoeny: shall we take anything else on the agenda?
[09:12pm] PeterThoeny: if not, lets start
[09:12pm] PeterThoeny: ---++ 1. Feature Requests for Jerusalem Release
[09:12pm] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/TWikiFeatureProposals
[09:12pm] PeterThoeny: let's pick just a few
[09:12pm] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/EmptyTrash
[09:13pm] PeterThoeny: empty trash has been requested frequently
[09:13pm] PeterThoeny: george you said that you can work on it as time permits
[09:13pm] GeorgeTrubisky: yes
[09:13pm] PeterThoeny: in the mean time SergeiHaramundanis said that he would like to help out
on this
[09:14pm] GeorgeTrubisky: great
[09:14pm] PeterThoeny: i will mentor him on the implementation
[09:14pm] himazu: how about rotating Trash periodically rather than emptying it?
[09:14pm] GeorgeTrubisky: rotating?
[09:15pm] PeterThoeny: that is a good point, may be one extra trash for roation
[09:15pm] PeterThoeny: "rotation"
[09:15pm] PeterThoeny: such as a TrashBAK
[09:15pm] PeterThoeny: imazu-san, please add your ideas to the feature proposal topic (later)
[09:15pm] himazu: creating new Trash after renaming Trash to Trash1 ... after deleting Tash5
[09:16pm] himazu: sure
[09:16pm] PeterThoeny: GeorgeTrubisky:  could you help out sergei on the release process and
checkin process?
[09:17pm] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/PointAndClickAccessControl
[09:17pm] PeterThoeny: i will work on this after finishing other proposals
[09:17pm] GeorgeTrubisky: I'll have some time the last part of the month
[09:18pm] GeorgeTrubisky: check-in, sure
[09:18pm] PeterThoeny: we already made good progress on pint and click access control in
twiki-5.1
[09:18pm] PeterThoeny: this is a remaining item to make membership management in groups a
point and click operation
[09:19pm] PeterThoeny: imazu-san, you have some special needs for your large deployment, may
be good to add your thought to that proposal topic
[09:19pm] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/AutoDiscoverTWikiForms
[09:20pm] PeterThoeny: i committed to this feature, status accepted
[09:20pm] himazu: regarding permission?
[09:20pm] PeterThoeny: i will work after finishing the move change TWiki form from edit screen
to "more" screen feature i am currently working on
[09:21pm] PeterThoeny: yes, regarding adding members to groups
[09:21pm] PeterThoeny: if you have other permission needs please create new feature topic(s)
[09:22pm] himazu: not really because we mainly use LDAP groups for access control.
[09:22pm] PeterThoeny: the Auto-discover TWiki forms feature is an ease of use thing to make
it easier to create twiki-forms based apps
[09:22pm] himazu: using my local extension to use LDAP groups for access restriction.
[09:22pm] PeterThoeny: a related idea (not yet proposed) is to create an app wizard
[09:23pm] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/MoveChangeFormFromEditToMoreScreen
[09:23pm] PeterThoeny: i am currently working on this
[09:24pm] PeterThoeny: also a usability thing, and to reduce confusion for new twiki users
("what is this change form thing in the edit screen?")
[09:24pm] PeterThoeny: i already implemented, but there is a bug i need to hunt down
[09:24pm] PeterThoeny: and i need to finish the doc update
[09:25pm] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/SummaryBasedOnSearchTerms
[09:25pm] PeterThoeny: steve mokris committed to work on this, but it has been a while
[09:25pm] PeterThoeny: let me ping him on this feature
[09:26pm] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/CombineJumpBoxAndSearchBox
[09:26pm] PeterThoeny: i committed to this, i will do this after finishing other features
i mentioned so far
[09:26pm] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/DiffAttachments
[09:26pm] PeterThoeny: pete jones of cern commited to this
[09:27pm] PeterThoeny: i will ping him
[09:27pm] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/RollbackAttachmentVersion
[09:27pm] PeterThoeny: pete jones is working on this
[09:28pm] PeterThoeny: people mentioned some usability enhancements that should be done on
this feature
[09:28pm] PeterThoeny: if you have any please add
[09:28pm] PeterThoeny: one more i'd like to cover:
[09:28pm] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/TWikiAppInstaller
[09:29pm] PeterThoeny: this is at a very early stage
[09:29pm] PeterThoeny: we discussed last time
[09:29pm] himazu: Quite a few users don't know attachments are revision controled.
[09:29pm] PeterThoeny: i think this is an important feature of the upcoming release
[09:29pm] himazu: There might be a way to make it more obvious.
[09:29pm] PeterThoeny: so if you have ideas or feedback please add them to the feature topic
[09:30pm] PeterThoeny: himazu:  do you have ideas on making attachment rev's more obvious?
[09:31pm] PeterThoeny: time check:  +31 min, 29 more min to go
[09:34pm] PeterThoeny: himazu:  you could propose a feature proposal on showing attachment
revs more prominently
[09:34pm] himazu: sure.
[09:35pm] GeorgeTrubisky: Don't know where this fits in the agenda, but I've recently ran
the automated unit cases suite against the current development trunk
[09:35pm] GeorgeTrubisky: 58 failures
[09:35pm] GeorgeTrubisky: we had 5 failures for the 5.1.0 release
[09:35pm] PeterThoeny: wow
[09:36pm] GeorgeTrubisky: I'm going to start chasing them down
[09:36pm] PeterThoeny: i am probably guilty because of moving the change form to the more screen
[09:36pm] GeorgeTrubisky: I'm concerned about the health of the code in trunk
[09:36pm] GeorgeTrubisky: hopefully they are all released to a change or 2
[09:36pm] GeorgeTrubisky: "related"
[09:37pm] PeterThoeny: the only major change recently was the move change form to more screen
[09:37pm] GeorgeTrubisky: ok
[09:37pm] PeterThoeny: let me investigate too on the unit tests
[09:38pm] GeorgeTrubisky: this one?
[09:38pm] GeorgeTrubisky: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/MoveChangeFormFromEditToMoreScreen
[09:38pm] PeterThoeny: imazu-san and phillip:  the main doc you need to read about submitting
a new feature proposal is http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/TWikiReleaseManagementProcess
[09:38pm] PeterThoeny: yes, that one
[09:39pm] PeterThoeny: related bug item http://develop.twiki.org/~twiki4/cgi-bin/view/Bugs/Item6819
[09:40pm] PeterThoeny: imazu-san, you have many enhancements done to scale twiki, i am looking
forward to see some of that rolled back to the twiki trunk
[09:41pm] PeterThoeny: it is good to split up proposals into manageable tasks
[09:41pm] Phillip1: ok
[09:41pm] PeterThoeny: i recommend to start with a simple and small proposal to familiarize
yourself with the process
[09:42pm] PeterThoeny: same for you phillip, if you have an idea to enhance the core twiki
i invite you to submit a proposal
[09:42pm] Phillip1: ok
[09:42pm] PeterThoeny: no proposal needed for plugins that do not hip with standard twiki
[09:42pm] himazu: understood.
[09:43pm] himazu: is it better to post them as feature requests?
[09:43pm] PeterThoeny: phillip:  http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/GettingInvolved lists
a number of features (extensions and core code) you can chose from
[09:44pm] Phillip1: ok, i will read it.
[09:44pm] PeterThoeny: yes, as per our process, all enhancements (unless small "no-brainer" 
features and bugs) should be proposed, and follow the 7 day review period to get accepted
[09:44pm] himazu: or should I create a new topic describing an enhancement not registered as
an enhancement request?
[09:44pm] PeterThoeny: over the years we developed a low friction process to accept features
into the core
[09:45pm] PeterThoeny: it is a permissive model, e.g. unless any feedback for change request
a proposal is automatically accepted after 7 days
[09:46pm] himazu: one thing worth mention here is that
[09:46pm] himazu: I made several core enhancements
[09:46pm] PeterThoeny: himazu:  we have many stale proposals, you could resurrect an existing
proposal, but in many cases it is better to start a new proposal
[09:46pm] PeterThoeny: time check:  +46 min
[09:46pm] himazu: depending on each other.
[09:46pm] himazu: sure
[09:47pm] himazu: I'm just wondering if it might help you guys in the community
[09:47pm] himazu: to see a big picture
[09:47pm] PeterThoeny: a proposal can be also a bigger feature covering several sub-features
[09:47pm] himazu: in addition to seeing individual proposals.
[09:47pm] himazu: maybe i don't have to worry about too much.
[09:47pm] himazu: we can move step by step.
[09:48pm] PeterThoeny: himazu:  for big picture, you could create an overview topic for your
enhancements you plan, and list the proposal there
[09:49pm] PeterThoeny: it is up to you
[09:49pm] PeterThoeny: we should move on
[09:49pm] himazu: ok
[09:49pm] PeterThoeny: any other items to discuss on features proposals?
[09:50pm] PeterThoeny: if not, let's continue
[09:50pm] PeterThoeny: ---++ 2. Review TWiki Governance
[09:51pm] PeterThoeny: as you know, in 2008 we introduced a new governance model that cleaned
up with the turmoil we had in the community
[09:51pm] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/TWikiGovernance
[09:51pm] PeterThoeny: i got some advice from jono bacon, the community lead of the ubunty project
[09:52pm] GeorgeTrubisky: ah
[09:52pm] PeterThoeny: btw, i can recommend jono's book highly:  the art of community
[09:52pm] PeterThoeny: he is working now on the 2nd edition
[09:52pm] PeterThoeny: i helped review the book
[09:52pm] PeterThoeny: so, back to twiki governance
[09:53pm] GeorgeTrubisky: great.  I'm been recently tasked with community governance at one of
our Safeway community sites
[09:53pm] PeterThoeny: it is designed to scale the twiki community big, as big as ubunity
[09:53pm] PeterThoeny: that is the reason why we have twiki community council, twiki technical
board and twiki task teams
[09:54pm] PeterThoeny: oh, nice one george. read jono's book
[09:54pm] GeorgeTrubisky: I intend to
[09:54pm] PeterThoeny: the reality is that we currently are still a bit too small for this
this structure
[09:54pm] PeterThoeny: but i think it is a good base
[09:55pm] PeterThoeny: did you have the chance to read the governance topics?
[09:55pm] PeterThoeny: amy feedback?
[09:55pm] PeterThoeny: thanks george for the initiative to define the release management task
team
[09:56pm] PeterThoeny: we have functioning task teams already, just not formalized
[09:56pm] PeterThoeny: after george's initiative last week i took some time to brush up the
task teams
[09:56pm] GeorgeTrubisky: all the old governance (core) structure needs to be converted in
the existing topics
[09:57pm] PeterThoeny: (i am talking too much, now i listen...)
[09:57pm] GeorgeTrubisky: I will do this for those topics related to my task team
[09:57pm] GeorgeTrubisky: ReleaseManagement
[09:57pm] PeterThoeny: yes, the old core team structre no longer exists, basically replaced by
the one documented now
[09:57pm] PeterThoeny: all task teams are listed at
http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/TWikiTaskTeams
[09:58pm] PeterThoeny: the task teams are part of a twiki app with TaskTeamform
[09:58pm] GeorgeTrubisky: I find the amount of "out to date" topic material a barrier to new
folks
[09:59pm] PeterThoeny: yes, twiki.org has 13 years history
[09:59pm] GeorgeTrubisky: its confusing
[09:59pm] PeterThoeny: there are many dead topics
[09:59pm] PeterThoeny: we can work on cleaning up old community structure topics
[09:59pm] GeorgeTrubisky: yes
[10:00pm] PeterThoeny: i don't think we need to clean up old feature proposal topics, or what
do you think?
[10:00pm] GeorgeTrubisky: no...its the process and governance that is the issue
[10:00pm] PeterThoeny: hmm, time check:  +60 min, time is up, shall we stop or continue a bit?
[10:00pm] himazu: I can continue.
[10:00pm] PeterThoeny: ok, so let's focus on cleaning ip stale community structure topics
[10:00pm] GeorgeTrubisky: for a bit
[10:01pm] PeterThoeny: let;s make a hard stop at +70 min
[10:02pm] GeorgeTrubisky: anyways, this topic is a perfect example
[10:02pm] GeorgeTrubisky: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/TWikiReleaseManagementProcess
[10:02pm] PeterThoeny: for transparency i think it is better to not delete old community
topics (e.g. not moe to trash), but to replce content we new content and link to old content
version of topic
[10:03pm] GeorgeTrubisky: don't intend to delete
[10:03pm] GeorgeTrubisky: but it would be nice to rename (don't know if this is possible)
[10:03pm] PeterThoeny: for example, i did that with 
http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/TWikiTechnicalBoard, i added this text at the bottom:  
"Old proposed TTB and discussions of 2008 archived in rev 5 of this topic." (with link to rev 5)
[10:04pm] GeorgeTrubisky: yes, but the topic name didn't change, correct?
[10:04pm] PeterThoeny: rename is possible, but according to tim berners lee, cool uris don;t
change, http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/CoolURIsDontChange
[10:05pm] PeterThoeny: rename is case by case though
[10:06pm] PeterThoeny: in the example of technical board, the new governance has the same name
for tech board as the old one, hence re-use of the topic
[10:06pm] PeterThoeny: in other cases, where name changes, better to create new topic, and
replace old topic with link to new topic
[10:07pm]  EnriqueCadalso joined the chat room.
[10:07pm] PeterThoeny: what do you think?
[10:07pm] PeterThoeny: hi EnriqueCadalso, welcome, but we are almost done
[10:07pm] GeorgeTrubisky: I will review that topic for a path forward.  But my point is the
current old community structures are a barrier to new folks....
[10:07pm] PeterThoeny: yes, good point
[10:07pm] Phillip1: Hi Peter, I have a meeting at 14: 15(UTC +8), so I have to leave now.
Would you pls send this minutes to my gmail?
[10:07pm] EnriqueCadalso: sorry, it is 1: 00 am here.
[10:07pm] PeterThoeny: so better to clean up
[10:07pm] PeterThoeny: wow, late
[10:08pm] PeterThoeny: enrique, are you in canada or cuba now/
[10:08pm] PeterThoeny: ?
[10:08pm] EnriqueCadalso: in Canada
[10:08pm] GeorgeTrubisky: Peter will post the chat (like he always does
[10:08pm] PeterThoeny: yes, i will post the chat log
[10:08pm] PeterThoeny: time check:  +68 min, 2 min to go
[10:09pm] PeterThoeny: any other feedback on governance?
[10:09pm] GeorgeTrubisky: good meeting!  Great to have you contribute Himazu.
[10:09pm] PeterThoeny: i invite you to provide feedback also on the governance topics on
twiki.org if you have
[10:10pm] GeorgeTrubisky: I think this time slot will work well for us
[10:10pm] PeterThoeny: yes, i am very much looking forward working together with imazu-san,
your contributions are important to scale twiki!
[10:10pm] GeorgeTrubisky: bye everyone
[10:10pm] PeterThoeny: time slot works well for me too
[10:11pm]  GeorgeTrubisky left the chat room. (Quit:  Leaving...)
[10:11pm]  Phillip1 left the chat room.
[10:11pm] PeterThoeny: but very early in europe
[10:11pm] PeterThoeny: thanks all!
[10:11pm] EnriqueCadalso: bye, sorry being late.
[10:11pm] PeterThoeny: i'll post the minutes
[10:11pm] himazu: bye all
[10:11pm] PeterThoeny: by all
[10:11pm]  EnriqueCadalso left the chat room.
[10:19pm]  himazu left the chat room. (Quit:  Leaving)