Date: October 24, 2011 12:49:50 PM PDT
Subject: JerusalemMeetingLog2011x10x24.txt

[08:59am]  PeterThoeny rejoined the room.
[09:44am]  GeorgeTrubisky joined the chat room.
[09:45am] GeorgeTrubisky: hey
[09:45am] GeorgeTrubisky: Hi Peter
[10:00am] GeorgeTrubisky: .
[10:01am] PeterThoeny: hi george
[10:01am] PeterThoeny: good morning
[10:02am] PeterThoeny: wondering if peter jones is still in new zealand
[10:03am] GeorgeTrubisky: is he on vacation?
[10:04am] PeterThoeny: he left early from our meetup at cmu/nasa for new zealand
[10:04am] PeterThoeny: not sure actually if business or vacation, i assume vacation
[10:05am] PeterThoeny: Proposed agenda:
[10:05am] PeterThoeny: 1. Feature Requests for Jerusalem Release
[10:05am] PeterThoeny: 2. Review Urgent and Not So Urgent Bugs
[10:05am] PeterThoeny: 3. Miscellaneous
[10:06am] PeterThoeny: ---++ 1. Feature Requests for Jerusalem Release
[10:06am] PeterThoeny: twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/TWikiFeatureProposals
[10:06am] PeterThoeny: i proposed SearchWithDefaultParameter
[10:07am] GeorgeTrubisky: Your TWikiPresentation2010x08x17 had good architecture information
contained in it.  Thanks.
[10:07am] PeterThoeny: small enhancement for twiki apps
[10:07am] PeterThoeny: ah, glad you can use it
[10:08am] PeterThoeny: MoveChangeFormFromEditToMoreScreen:  i am currently working on it
[10:08am] PeterThoeny: still need to debug one issue
[10:08am] PeterThoeny: EmptyTrash:  george, you are listed as developer
[10:09am] GeorgeTrubisky: yup.
[10:10am] PeterThoeny: AutoDiscoverTWikiForms:  i will work on this soon
[10:10am] GeorgeTrubisky: no update yet.  I've started some work with dependency management
for the new release, but I'll get to this sooner or later
[10:10am] PeterThoeny: this is mainly a usability thing to make twiki app programming a bit
easier
[10:11am] PeterThoeny: yes, i saw your brainstorming topic
[10:12am] PeterThoeny: good to get to think about dependency management from the beginning
[10:12am] GeorgeTrubisky: oh, a very small start.  I've got some existing documentation on
maven I''ll set up
[10:12am] PeterThoeny: HideTWikiFormIfAllFieldsHidden:  this is done now
[10:12am] PeterThoeny: also for better usability for twiki apps
[10:13am] GeorgeTrubisky: I'm going to use what I know about the heavy weight maven approach
to dependency management.
[10:13am] GeorgeTrubisky: sounds good
[10:13am] GeorgeTrubisky: are there 2 existing twiki apps that have dependencies you know of?
[10:14am] GeorgeTrubisky: just looking for some examples
[10:14am] PeterThoeny: well, there are apps that have a dependency on plugins
[10:14am] PeterThoeny: for example an app might create charts so needs the chartplugin
[10:15am] PeterThoeny: also apps may have dependencies
[10:15am] GeorgeTrubisky: yes, just an example of one would help
[10:15am] PeterThoeny: for example, a project management app might have a dependency on a
meeting minute app as a component of the project mgmnt app
[10:16am] GeorgeTrubisky: so a specific example?  That's what I'm looking for
[10:17am] GeorgeTrubisky: an existing TML app
[10:18am] PeterThoeny: we do not have an existing app on twiki.org that has a dependency on
another app
[10:19am] PeterThoeny: i can envision the need for dep mgmnt for larger apps that depend on
components
[10:20am] PeterThoeny: i see lesser need for smaller/midsize apps
[10:20am] PeterThoeny: for those, a proper update mechanism is more important
[10:21am] GeorgeTrubisky: ok, I'll just pick a few to mock up.  Is there a list or topic of
the existing TML apps on twiki.org?
[10:21am] PeterThoeny: like on iphone where you see a list of apps that can be updated
[10:21am] PeterThoeny: since we do not have a packaging standard yet, we have apps in two places:
[10:22am] PeterThoeny: 1. demo apps to try in sandbox web on twiki.org,
http: //twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Sandbox/WebHome#Sample_Applications
[10:22am] GeorgeTrubisky: yes, I've seen those.  Ok.
[10:24am] PeterThoeny: 2. apps packaged as add-ons,
http: //twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Plugins/AddOnPackage (besides apps, add-ons also include
standalone scripts, browser plugins etc)
[10:25am] GeorgeTrubisky: ah, this is new to me.  thanks!
[10:25am] GeorgeTrubisky: so an "add on" is a TML application, with some install scripts
to support it, correct?
[10:28am] PeterThoeny: sample apps packaged as add-ons include BlogAddOn, ContactDbAddOn,
DiscussionForumAddOn, ModalBoxAddOn, NavBarAddOn, PopUpCalculatorAddOn, ScrollBoxAddOn,
TWikiDotNetForumAppAddOn, TabbedNavigationAddOn
[10:28am] GeorgeTrubisky: ok, I have what I need, thanks.
[10:29am] PeterThoeny: an add-on is the "anything else" bucket for extensions, e.g. not a
plugin, skin or code contrib
[10:29am] PeterThoeny: so, once we have a packaging standard we should obsolete the apps
currently packaged as add-ons
[10:31am] PeterThoeny: a tml app is what the name says, an app that is done entirely on tml
level (technically stuff in data and pub, but not in lib, bin, tools)
[10:32am] PeterThoeny: actually, there is an inconsistency, there are some tml apps packaged
as contrib
[10:32am] PeterThoeny: http: //twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Plugins/ContribPackage
[10:34am] PeterThoeny: examples:  BugsContrib, FamFamFamContrib, SnazzyRoundedCornersContrib,
TipsContrib
[10:34am] PeterThoeny: those also need to be repackaged once we have the app standard
[10:35am] GeorgeTrubisky: hmmm.  seems like a start for a packaging standard on brief review.
(ContribPackage)
[10:35am] GeorgeTrubisky: ContribPackageHowTo
[10:35am] PeterThoeny: as you see, some are full fledged apps (such as ContactDbAddOn), some
as components that can be used by other apps (such as ScrollBoxAddOn)
[10:36am] PeterThoeny: yes, contrib can be and is used to package apps
[10:36am] PeterThoeny: but it is too complicated for non-programmers
[10:37am] PeterThoeny: i envision a full web based interface, everything happening on twiki
pages, including defining the manifest, packaging, publishing, installing, updating
[10:37am] GeorgeTrubisky: well, a start for my use case!
[10:38am] PeterThoeny: non-admins (e.g. people not in the twikiadmingroup and people who do
not have shell access to the server) should be able to create and in stall tml apps
[10:38am] GeorgeTrubisky: From a central repository on twiki.org, correct?
[10:39am] PeterThoeny: the contrib package standard is a good way for developers, for example
the tipscontrib can easily be shipped as part of twiki distro
[10:40am] PeterThoeny: yes, install should be from twiki.org repository
[10:40am] PeterThoeny: later we could add a second repository on twiki.net for payed for tml
apps (e.g. marketplace)
[10:41am] GeorgeTrubisky: maven does this well, but is heavyweight and somewhat complex.
[10:43am] GeorgeTrubisky: GAV coordiates are the key (groupID, artifactID, version) for 
managing dependencies.  Ok.  Good discussion.  I know you want to cover some other stuff on
the agenda.
[10:44am] PeterThoeny: we need to find a solution that does not add too many dependencies to
install twiki and the app packager
[10:44am] GeorgeTrubisky: well, that is what the use case will help with.
[10:44am] PeterThoeny: ---++ 2. Review Urgent and Not So Urgent Bugs
[10:44am] PeterThoeny: i have nothing urgent here to discuss
[10:45am] GeorgeTrubisky: me neither
[10:45am] PeterThoeny: do you have anything on bugs?
[10:45am] PeterThoeny: ok
[10:45am] PeterThoeny: ---++ 3. Miscellaneous
[10:45am] PeterThoeny: i have one topic
[10:45am] GeorgeTrubisky: still want to talk about changing the time of day for the release
meeting?
[10:45am] PeterThoeny: ah, that would be the second topic
[10:46am] PeterThoeny: do you have any item to discuss?
[10:46am] GeorgeTrubisky: just the time.  I'm open to a change if it helps, but would like
to know whats proposed
[10:47am] PeterThoeny: well, pete jones is not that active
[10:48am] PeterThoeny: if he does not plan to attend the meetings we could shift the time
to meet the needs of hideyo-san
[10:48am] PeterThoeny: if we shift, how late could you go?
[10:48am] PeterThoeny: for example late afternoon, or even in the evening?
[10:48am] GeorgeTrubisky: well, he is your friend, yes?  I you explain it to him, he would
understand I bet
[10:48am] PeterThoeny: let me discuss with pete jones
[10:49am] GeorgeTrubisky: Well, I could be late on certain days, 6 or 7 or later, but mondays
and tuesdays are booked for me.
[10:50am] GeorgeTrubisky: Wednesday or Thursdays would be good.  I would prefer thursdays,
but either will work
[10:51am] PeterThoeny: if evening i'd prefer 8pm (after dinner)
[10:52am] PeterThoeny: and yes, thursdays would work for me
[10:52am] GeorgeTrubisky: so for the folks I work with in Manila, our 4pm is 6am for them.
Japan might be the same
[10:52am] PeterThoeny: that is fri morning for hideyo-san
[10:52am] GeorgeTrubisky: yes, 8pm on thursday would work for me
[10:53am] PeterThoeny: let me discuss discuss w pete jones
[10:53am] PeterThoeny: that time would be 5am central europe time
[10:53am] GeorgeTrubisky: ok.  What else?  I have a hard stop at 11
[10:54am] PeterThoeny: me too on 11am
[10:59am] PeterThoeny: that is all i have for today
[10:59am] PeterThoeny: time check:  +59 min
[10:59am] GeorgeTrubisky: ok.  Well got to go.  be sure to publish the notes from today.  I'll
refer to them
[10:59am] GeorgeTrubisky: ttyl
[10:59am] PeterThoeny: i'll do
[10:59am] PeterThoeny: ttyl george
[10:59am]  GeorgeTrubisky left the chat room.