Date: February 14, 2011 11:15:39 AM PST
Subject: IstanbulMeetingLog2011x02x14.txt

[09:59am]  GeorgeTrubisky joined the chat room.
[10:00am] PeterThoeny: good morning/evening GeorgeTrubisky, mgg, pbr1
[10:01am] mgg: Hi Peter!
[10:01am] PeterThoeny: mgg, i presume MichaelGulitz?
[10:02am] PeterThoeny: and pbr1, PaulReiber?
[10:02am] PeterThoeny: let me grab a tea, brb
[10:02am] mgg: Yes, your are right
[10:03am]  GeorgeTrubisky left the chat room. (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
[10:05am] PeterThoeny: mgg, now 7pm in germany?
[10:05am] mgg: yes - time to go home
[10:06am] mgg: this time my calendar made me stay to join the meeting
[10:06am] PeterThoeny: ah, so you will have a late dinner
[10:07am] mgg: i am used to that...
[10:07am] PeterThoeny: oh, no, it is valentines day, so you should go home early?
[10:07am] PeterThoeny: valentines is a big fuss in the usa
[10:07am] PeterThoeny: when i was in switzerland it was not a big event
[10:07am]  GeorgeT joined the chat room.
[10:08am] PeterThoeny: hi GeorgeT, issue with irc connection?
[10:08am] mgg: not so much in germany too
[10:08am] PeterThoeny: lets start at +10 min
[10:09am]  PeterJones joined the chat room.
[10:09am] PeterThoeny: it is also big in japan (where i spent 8 years)
[10:09am] PeterThoeny: good evening PeterJones!
[10:09am] mgg: never been to japan (yet)
[10:09am] PeterJones: Evening all
[10:10am] PeterThoeny: i think we can start
[10:10am] PeterThoeny: pbr1:  around?
[10:11am] PeterThoeny: may be first quick intro because not everybody knows each other
[10:12am]  GeorgeT left the chat room. (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
[10:12am] PeterThoeny: such as: workplace, what use twiki for, goals for twiki
[10:12am] PeterThoeny: hmm, george seems to have some irc issues
[10:13am] PeterJones: At CERN we have been working with TWiki for 7 years. It is heavly used and
we are currently using v 4.3.2
[10:13am] mgg: I am working as consultant and have introduced twiki to our company 2 years ago.
we are working around sap products. we have just moved to 5.01
[10:14am]  GeorgeT joined the chat room.
[10:14am] PeterThoeny: i know pbr1 (PaulReiber) for many years, he was at a silicon valley 
startup using twiki in the very early days of twiki, not at rack space hosting
[10:14am] GeorgeT: Hello
[10:14am] GeorgeT: still trying to join
[10:14am] GeorgeT: Think I'm in
[10:14am] PeterThoeny: hi GeorgeT, could you sort out the irc issues?
[10:14am] PeterThoeny: good
[10:15am] GeorgeT: I think so
[10:15am] GeorgeT: sorry for the delay
[10:15am] PeterThoeny: can you give quick intro? workplace, what use twiki for, goals for twiki
[10:15am] PeterThoeny: i paste what other said for you to see
[10:15am] PeterThoeny:  > PeterJones:  At CERN we have been working with TWiki for 7 years. It is
heavly used and we are currently using v 4.3.2
[10:15am] PeterThoeny:  > mgg:  I am working as consultant and have introduced twiki to our company
2 years ago. we are working around sap products. we have just moved to 5.01
[10:16am] PeterThoeny:  > PeterThoeny:  i know pbr1 (PaulReiber) for many years, he was at a
silicon valley startup using twiki in the very early days of twiki, not at rack space hosting
[10:17am] GeorgeT: I'm George Trubisky, currently working at Safeway.  I'm just learning TWiki
internals.  Safeway does not use TWiki (yet)
[10:17am] PeterThoeny: and GeorgeT is our release manager in training
[10:18am] GeorgeT: yes
[10:18am] PeterThoeny: ok, let's start
[10:18am] PeterThoeny: agenda at http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/IstanbulReleaseMeeting2011x02x14
[10:18am] PeterThoeny: # 1. Feature Requests for Istanbul Release
[10:18am] PeterThoeny: # 2. Review Urgent and Not So Urgent Bugs
[10:18am] PeterThoeny: # 3. Miscellaneous
[10:18am] PeterThoeny: anything to add?
[10:18am] PeterThoeny: if not, first item:
[10:18am] PeterThoeny: ---++ 1. Feature Requests for Istanbul Release
[10:19am] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/TWikiFeatureProposals
[10:20am] PeterThoeny: we currently have only one item marked as underconstruction, although there
are more in work:
[10:20am] PeterThoeny: SetAndGetVariables
[10:20am] PeterThoeny: i plan to work on it to make it understand json syntax
[10:20am] PeterThoeny: it is implemented as a plugin
[10:21am] PeterThoeny: intended to be shipped with istanbul (upcoming twiki-5.1)
[10:21am] PeterThoeny: i am currently working on:
[10:21am] PeterThoeny: ReadOnlySkinMode
[10:22am] PeterThoeny: this is intended for sites that have twiki apps where regular users should
use only the apps and not edit the app pages
[10:23am] PeterJones: I saw your QR plugin today nd we tried it out. It works nicley
[10:23am] PeterThoeny: this is one step further to make twiki more userfriendly
[10:23am] PeterThoeny: ah, good
[10:23am] PeterThoeny: i think mobile integration is the future
[10:24am] PeterThoeny: people expect to interact with online data via smartphones
[10:25am] PeterThoeny: i wrote a blog about it
[10:25am] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Blog/BlogEntry201102x2
[10:25am] PeterThoeny: primary intent was to get twiki known in new circles and to attract new
developers
[10:26am] PeterThoeny: what other feature proposals do we want to cover in the meeting?
[10:26am] PeterThoeny: ParameterizedVariables feature by chris lahti
[10:26am] PeterThoeny: feature was complete last fall, docs are still pending
[10:27am] PeterThoeny: yesterday i sent email to chris asking for docs
[10:27am] PeterThoeny: SummaryBasedOnSearchTerms by steve mokris
[10:27am] PeterThoeny: i have not seen an update from steve
[10:27am] mgg: what about UserDataManagementApiAndGUI - this seems very important
[10:28am] PeterThoeny: thomas weigert posted a few proposals
[10:28am] PeterThoeny: i talked to him last week
[10:28am] PeterThoeny: he is using twiki at work and at school
[10:28am] PeterThoeny: they are still on 4.3 and want to upgrade
[10:29am] PeterThoeny: mgg:  user data mgmnt api and gui is done
[10:30am] PeterThoeny: yes, this is an important feature for usability
[10:31am] PeterThoeny: well, the feature is done for standard twiki with user mapping manager and
twiki internal password manager
[10:31am] PeterThoeny: the ldapcontrib and openid contrib need to be enhanced to make use of the api
[10:32am] PeterJones: What news do you have on the openis contrib?
[10:32am] PeterThoeny: what other feature should we cover?
[10:32am] PeterThoeny: you mean openid?
[10:32am] PeterJones: yes sorry openid
[10:33am] PeterThoeny: ian kluft is working on it
[10:33am] PeterThoeny: it works nicely on twiki-4.3
[10:33am] PeterThoeny: i met him a week ago
[10:33am] pbr1: hi all!
[10:34am] PeterThoeny: we reviewed the new user data mgmnt api
[10:34am] pbr1: sorry I stepped away
[10:34am] pbr1: wow... lots to read
[10:34am] PeterThoeny: he is going to work on openid for twiki-5.0, as well as user data mgmt api
for twiki-5.1
[10:35am] pbr1: Peter, first... THANK YOU for a bazillion years of support you've given TWiki
[10:35am] PeterThoeny: he intends to make it work on twiki-5.0 and twiki5-1
[10:35am] pbr1: Ian's doing that? Cool!
[10:35am] PeterThoeny: hi paul, welcome back!
[10:35am] pbr1: ...was I gone?
[10:35am] pbr1:
[10:35am] pbr1: Hey it's cool to see some important stuff being worked on
[10:36am] pbr1: cross-integration w/ other openid websites would change a LOT for TWiki
[10:36am] PeterThoeny: yes, twiki-5.1 will be kick-ass
[10:36am] PeterThoeny: and i need your support
[10:36am] pbr1: extremely good strategy
[10:36am] pbr1: I'm here for you, so much as I can be!
[10:36am] PeterThoeny:
[10:37am] PeterThoeny: CombineJumpBoxAndSearchBox: i will work on this after the read-only skin
mode feature
[10:38am] PeterThoeny: combining jump box and search will be another usability enhancement that
makes twiki more approachable for non technical users
[10:38am] pbr1: ...does the json integration w/ SetAndGetVariables mean I can use them w/ jQuery
once that works?
[10:39am] PeterThoeny: that is the idea, yes
[10:40am] mgg: that reminds me of the kinosearch trouble I have...
[10:40am] pbr1: Peter: re: combining the two - Eric Shulman, noted UI designer (creator of the
combo box for example) used SHIFT to differentiate search vs. goto - i.e. just a term with
enter was a "search", the term with SHIFT-enter was a "goto"
[10:40am] PeterThoeny: so far variables are not persistent across page invocations
[10:40am] pbr1: ...I think...
[10:40am] PeterThoeny: but that is the next logical step
[10:41am] PeterThoeny: on set/get vars, what is unclear is if we need version control
[10:41am] PeterThoeny: so far everything is version controlled in twiki
[10:41am] PeterThoeny: so it would be logical to add version control to variables
[10:42am] PeterThoeny: but then, is this really needed? and if implemented how to access
variables way back in time?
[10:42am] pbr1: I see... so it's not clear in the proposal what the "depth" is for a "set var"
operation
[10:42am] pbr1: Yes it gets quite tricky quite fast
[10:42am] PeterThoeny: right now it simply sets a variable and gets a variable during page
rendering time
[10:42am] pbr1: better to stay with the "local / server" model of soap/rest etc.
[10:42am] PeterThoeny: e.g. you can set a variable in a search, then do some actions after the
search
[10:43am] PeterThoeny: or, you can include pages that set variables, and then in the top mage you
do something with those variables
[10:43am] pbr1: Right, Peter
[10:43am] PeterThoeny: can you explain what yo mean by local/sever?
[10:44am] PeterThoeny: "local/server"
[10:44am] pbr1: sure
[10:44am] pbr1: a page is delivered. once it's rendered fully, it can do anything it wants w/
jQuery, etc.
[10:45am] pbr1: all resources are either (a) in the dom (local) or (b) on some server somewhere
(either the one for this page, or some other server)
[10:45am] PeterThoeny: ah, yes
[10:45am] pbr1: so when you say "set a variable" and/or "get a variable"....
[10:45am] pbr1: it's all about WHEN those are being run.
[10:45am] PeterThoeny: in this regard, jquery is handling the local part, and set/get is handled
at the server
[10:45am] pbr1: during the page generation
[10:45am] pbr1: during the page rendering
[10:45am] pbr1: afterward
[10:45am] pbr1: etc.
[10:46am] PeterThoeny: yes, set/get is handled at server during page rendering
[10:46am] pbr1: so, with that, I wonder if there's any need for version control since there need
not be a serve back-end other than what the page does using JSON, SOAP, REST, etc.
[10:47am] PeterThoeny: time check: +46 min, about 15 min to go
[10:47am] PeterThoeny: yes, good point
[10:47am] pbr1: hope the contextual discussion helped as well
[10:47am] pbr1: dunno that I have an answer from all of the above, though
[10:48am] pbr1: ...just some thoughts on the problem space.
[10:48am] PeterThoeny: the only reason for version control would be tracability, so that you can
verify who did what action
[10:49am] PeterThoeny: going on:
[10:49am] PeterThoeny: EmptyTrash - useful feature. it needs on owner
[10:49am] PeterJones: I made some progress with RollbackAttachmentVersion.
[10:49am] PeterThoeny: good
[10:50am] PeterThoeny: is everything clear on spec of attachment rollback?
[10:50am] PeterJones: I have updated the spec. Ive been playing with various methods.
[10:51am] pbr1: empty trash url = ?
[10:51am] PeterJones: Sorry I havnt updated the spec I should have said. This I will get to
[10:51am] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/EmptyTrash
[10:52am] PeterThoeny: pbr1:  all features are listed at
http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/TWikiFeatureProposals
[10:53am] PeterThoeny: DiffAttachments: would be a nice feature, needs an owner
[10:54am] PeterThoeny: any other feature to cover?
[10:54am] PeterJones: That would be similar to RollbackAttachmentVersion.
[10:54am] PeterJones: I can take a look
[10:54am] PeterThoeny: oh, thank you pete!
[10:55am] PeterThoeny: please put your name as committed developer
[10:55am] PeterThoeny: ---++ 2. Review Urgent and Not So Urgent Bugs
[10:55am] GeorgeT: Im working on Item5384: Allow Delete of Duplicate Attachments
[10:55am] PeterThoeny: thank you george
[10:55am] PeterThoeny: this is a good one to nail down
[10:56am] GeorgeT: Fould a reference to this...would appreciate more info if you got it
[10:56am] GeorgeT: You need to use the # official API to manipulate attachments.
[10:56am] PeterThoeny: spec should be clear?
[10:56am] GeorgeT: what is reference to "official API"?
[10:56am] PeterThoeny: no, this is core code
[10:56am] GeorgeT: ok
[10:56am] PeterThoeny: so core code can use twiki internals
[10:56am] PeterThoeny: of corse in a clean way
[10:57am] GeorgeT: was from Attach class
[10:57am] PeterThoeny: e.g. lower level objects should not call higher level objects
[10:57am] pbr1: I tacked a comment on the bottom of http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/EmptyTrash
[10:58am] GeorgeT: right.
[10:58am] PeterThoeny: pbr1:  thanks, i'll add my comments later
[10:58am] PeterThoeny: as for rename spec
[10:59am] PeterThoeny: foo.doc gets foo2.doc, foo3.doc etc
[10:59am] PeterThoeny: foo.bar.doc gets foo.bar2.doc, foo.bar3.doc etc
[10:59am] pbr1: Also, TWiki on a server might be better off cleaning the Trash w/ "logrotate"
or similar.
[10:59am] PeterThoeny: foo gets foo2, foo3 etc
[11:00am] GeorgeT: Peter, I have a hard stop at top of hour.  thanks for the helps via email.
I'll keep at it
[11:00am] PeterThoeny: pbr1:  you mean secondary trash?
[11:00am] pbr1: need to run, Peter - it's Valentines day, and ... (sheepish grin) I for got to
buy the wife a nice gift.
[11:00am]  plj joined the chat room.
[11:00am]  PeterJones left the chat room. (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
[11:01am] PeterThoeny: ok, thanks pbr1! have fun!
[11:01am] pbr1: feel free to email me about the trash emptying problem and I'll be happy to assist.
[11:01am] pbr1: TTYL!
[11:01am]  pbr1 left the chat room.
[11:01am] plj: I seem o have lost contact
[11:01am] PeterThoeny: time check: +61 min, we should wrap up soon
[11:01am] PeterThoeny: welcome back pete
[11:02am] PeterThoeny: any other bug item to cover?
[11:02am] PeterThoeny: if not, next:
[11:02am] PeterThoeny: ---++ 3. Miscellaneous
[11:02am] PeterThoeny: anything?
[11:03am] plj: Peter so you use a UML tool for TWiki? SOmething like autodia?
[11:03am] PeterThoeny: last time we talked about the world map with twiki.org site visitors
[11:03am] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/TWiki/TWikiDotOrgVisitorMap
[11:03am] PeterThoeny: at that time it was just one week old
[11:03am] PeterThoeny: now it is three weeks old
[11:03am] PeterThoeny: more data
[11:03am] PeterThoeny: plj:  no i am not using uml tools
[11:04am] PeterThoeny: there is a uml extension for twiki though
[11:04am] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Plugins/TWikiUmlPlugin
[11:04am] plj: I want to show the structure of the TWiki engine
[11:04am] plj: autodia helps a little
[11:05am] PeterThoeny: ah
[11:05am] PeterThoeny: this is actually a good point
[11:06am] PeterThoeny: what is missing for new contributors is a high level overview of twiki
internals
[11:06am] PeterThoeny: do you think autodia would help?
[11:06am] plj: exactly. It is important for a new pwerson joining
[11:06am] plj: It may help but I will look for other options too.
[11:07am]  GeorgeT left the chat room. (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
[11:07am] PeterThoeny: oh, i am poking around the uml tool
[11:07am] PeterThoeny: http://carlosmanzanares.com/twiki/bin/view.pl/Sandbox/WebHome
[11:07am] PeterThoeny: works in safari, but not in ff
[11:08am] PeterThoeny: plj:  you could drive this: make twiki more approachable to new contributors
by offering a high level overview of twiki internals
[11:08am] PeterThoeny: time check: +68 min
[11:08am] plj: I will give some feedback on what I find
[11:09am] PeterThoeny: cool
[11:09am] PeterThoeny: you could create a feature proposal for that to track
[11:09am] PeterThoeny: i need to run
[11:09am] plj: ok see you next time
[11:09am] PeterThoeny: thanks all for attending!
[11:09am] PeterThoeny: see you next time!
[11:09am] mgg: by all
[11:09am] PeterThoeny: i'll post the logs and minutes