Date: January 18, 2010 10:30:13 PM PST
Subject: HelsinkiMeetingLog2010x01x18.txt

[09:58am]  herbivore joined the chat room.
[10:01am] peterthoeny:hi horst
[10:01am] peterthoeny:ho chengappa
[10:03am] herbivore:hi
[10:04am]  Peterjones joined the chat room.
[10:04am] peterthoeny:lets wait for sopan
[10:04am] peterthoeny:he should join shortly
[10:05am] peterthoeny:hi pete!
[10:05am] Peterjones:Good evening
[10:05am] peterthoeny:we have now germany, switzerland, india and usa here
[10:06am]  SopanShewale joined the chat room.
[10:06am] SopanShewale:hello everyone, peter
[10:07am] Peterjones:Hi Sopan
[10:08am] peterthoeny:hi sopan
[10:08am] SopanShewale:Hi PeterJones - good morning
[10:08am]  peterthoeny changed the topic to "http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/HelsinkiReleaseMeeting2010x01x18".
[10:08am] peterthoeny:meeting agenda at http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/HelsinkiReleaseMeeting2010x01x18
[10:08am] peterthoeny:we have a stormy day today
[10:09am] peterthoeny:garbage containers are tumbling in the street
[10:10am] peterthoeny:shall we start the meeting?
[10:10am] peterthoeny:first a question
[10:10am] peterthoeny:is the formal meeting a good format?
[10:10am] peterthoeny:should we change it a bit?
[10:10am] peterthoeny:just curious
[10:11am] Peterjones:I think it is ok as it is
[10:11am] SopanShewale:formal vs open??
[10:11am] SopanShewale:open meetings are better
[10:12am] peterthoeny:by formal i mean according to agenda
[10:12am] peterthoeny:vs free form discussion
[10:12am] SopanShewale:free form is better
[10:13am] peterthoeny:personally i prefer the structure, but i see your point sopan
[10:13am] peterthoeny:may be we can make the formal part shorter and add some discussion?
[10:13am] Peterjones:Yes , some sort of compromise
[10:14am] herbivore:formal vs open = efficient vs fun
[10:14am] peterthoeny:proposed agenda:
[10:14am] peterthoeny:# 1. Feature requests for Helsinki Release
[10:14am] peterthoeny:# 2. Review Urgent Bugs
[10:14am] peterthoeny:# 3. Miscellaneous
[10:14am] peterthoeny:we can have discussion within those items
[10:14am] peterthoeny:any item to add or change?
[10:14am] herbivore:no
[10:14am] SopanShewale:none from my side
[10:15am] peterthoeny:---++ 1. Feature requests for Helsinki Release
[10:15am] peterthoeny:http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/TWikiFeatureProposals
[10:15am] peterthoeny:ImplementBuildWikiWordFunction - done
[10:16am] peterthoeny:thank you herbivore for implementing this!
[10:16am] SopanShewale:(hmm... there seems to be issue with resolving sites.. www.twiki.org does not resolve - 
while twiki.org resolves )
[10:16am] SopanShewale:gr9 herbivore
[10:16am] herbivore:np
[10:16am] SopanShewale:i mean - gr8herbivore
[10:16am] peterthoeny:http://www.twiki.org/ resolves here
[10:17am] SopanShewale:(my ISP  )
[10:17am] peterthoeny:or your hosts file?
[10:17am] SopanShewale:ISP
[10:17am] peterthoeny:let's look at "Proposals where 14-day rule applies" section
[10:18am] peterthoeny:TWikiDocGraphicsInMainWeb is all done
[10:18am] peterthoeny:i will change the status to done later
[10:18am] peterthoeny:ConfigurationOnlyAfterAuthentication - good proposal by sopan
[10:18am] peterthoeny:sopan could you set the commit date?
[10:19am] peterthoeny:SessionManagement - sopan what is the status?
[10:19am] SopanShewale:yes.. i will do it..
[10:19am] peterthoeny:still active?
[10:19am] SopanShewale:SessionManagement.. this is not valid - after we decided to go with "trunk" for release
[10:19am] SopanShewale:i will change the status
[10:20am] peterthoeny:ok
[10:20am] peterthoeny:VersionLocalSitedotCfg - good proposal by sopan
[10:20am] peterthoeny:please set the committed date
[10:21am] SopanShewale:yes - i will post my comments in the proposal.. but both of them need at least 1 week
 (exclude testing)
[10:21am] SopanShewale:but definitely for this release
[10:21am] peterthoeny:no, i mean set the commit date so that the 14 day clock starts
[10:22am] peterthoeny:we have many features in the "Accepted proposals waiting to be implemented" section
[10:22am] peterthoeny:anyone feel free to start coding one of those
[10:23am] peterthoeny:(i need to put in a circuit breaker, brb)
[10:24am] peterthoeny:...back
[10:25am] peterthoeny:anything else on features?
[10:26am] peterthoeny:any idea for good feature?
[10:26am] Peterjones:Sopan did you have a chance to look at my CloneTopic code?
[10:27am] SopanShewale:Peter - so sorry - did not get a chance today
[10:27am] SopanShewale:got stuck in testcase fixings
[10:27am] SopanShewale:http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/ConfigurationOnlyAfterAuthentication - commitdate added
[10:27am] Peterjones:Ok, I have another suggestion that came from one of my users.
[10:27am] SopanShewale:http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/VersionLocalSitedotCfg - commit date added
[10:28am] SopanShewale:please sahre
[10:28am] SopanShewale:s/sahre/share/
[10:28am] Peterjones:We can now easily recover previos topic versiosn from more topic actions. Ca we do the same 
for attachments
[10:28am] Peterjones:Would this be easy to implement?
[10:29am] SopanShewale:should be - easy
[10:29am] SopanShewale:but time consuming on testing it
[10:30am] peterthoeny:ah, recovering prev attachments could be done
[10:30am] peterthoeny:wondering how much this is used?
[10:31am] SopanShewale:peter.. actual its difficult to discover--such feature exists in twiki
[10:31am] peterthoeny:personally i would like to see a attachment rev compare feature
[10:31am] peterthoeny:naturally only for text files
[10:31am] SopanShewale:yes
[10:32am] peterthoeny:sopan, i have seen lots of test case fixes recently
[10:32am] peterthoeny:thank you for working on this?
[10:33am] SopanShewale:so - PeterJones.. can you please raise the proposal.. then we can improve on that
[10:33am] Peterjones:It may be a useul feature for teh future. Not critical for the moment.
[10:33am] Peterjones:I will raise the proposal officailly
[10:33am] SopanShewale:sure..thx
[10:34am] SopanShewale:Peter - about test cases.. a few more (10 or 15) cases still fail in trunk.. very close 
to fix all
[10:34am] peterthoeny:s/?/!/
[10:35am] peterthoeny:very nice!
[10:35am] SopanShewale:thx
[10:35am] peterthoeny:from prev release meeting:
[10:35am] peterthoeny:Focus for 5.0 release as discussed in last release meeting:
[10:35am] SopanShewale:(need to go offline in 5 to 10 mins...  )
[10:35am] peterthoeny:    *  Add 2 pugins to core (best ones TBD based in TWikiMission)
[10:35am] peterthoeny:    * Update pattern skin with pulldown menus (possibly retiring the sidebar)
[10:35am] peterthoeny:    * Add database backend (just for caching of meta data and key page elements (such 
as backlinks))
[10:35am] peterthoeny:    * Redesigned user profile pages (with photos, tabbed interface)
[10:35am] peterthoeny:    * Easier install and upgrade
[10:35am] peterthoeny:    * Copy some useful features from related projects
[10:35am] SopanShewale:yes
[10:36am] peterthoeny:i will give some though on db backend
[10:37am] peterthoeny:anyone interested in looking into easier install and upgrade?
[10:37am] ChengappaCB:Hi, Chengappa here. Have been listening or sometime.. didn't want to disturb....
[10:37am] peterthoeny:you are not disturbing, i invite you to participate in discussion
[10:37am] ChengappaCB:s/or/for/
[10:38am] peterthoeny:on updating patternskin, we can look into adding quickmenuskin feature into patternskin
[10:39am] peterthoeny:we target march release
[10:39am] ChengappaCB:Will db backend increase the complexity in terms of installation etc ?
[10:39am] peterthoeny:that is feature freeze at end of feb
[10:39am] ChengappaCB:because the db needs to be installed  and maintained...
[10:39am] SopanShewale:adding db backend..this will add complexity
[10:39am] peterthoeny:yes, it will add complexity
[10:40am] peterthoeny:ideally this is optional
[10:40am] peterthoeny:e.g. a pluggable storage backend where admin has a choice to enable and configure db 
backend if needed
[10:40am] ChengappaCB:As of now, I backup my twiki installation by simply copying the text files... but with 
the db, even backup / restore will be more complex
[10:40am] Peterjones:db as an option is a must I think.
[10:41am] ChengappaCB:I suppose db will make it faster ?
[10:41am] peterthoeny:small twiki deployments do not need db backend
[10:41am] peterthoeny:large deployments with >50k pages can benefit from db backend
[10:42am] ChengappaCB:Then making it an option seems to be the best option
[10:42am] peterthoeny:for example at a university in usa using twiki in big scale, they have to wait for a 
minute for a page rename due to slow backlink check
[10:42am] ChengappaCB:I don't suppose that most twiki installations are > 50k pages
[10:43am] Peterjones:isnt it more dependent on the size of particular web?
[10:43am] peterthoeny:mostly yes
[10:44am] peterthoeny:but a rename of a topic with backlink checks across the whole site searches all webs
[10:44am] Peterjones:We are hitting webs of more than 10K and I agree that serach and renames etc are slow 
and teh DB option would be a benefit
[10:44am] Peterjones:Ah zes I see and agree
[10:44am] peterthoeny:how many topic in total do you have now pete?
[10:45am] peterthoeny:do you see a slow speed on topic rename?
[10:45am] Peterjones:Around 60K with 100Gb data and pub
[10:45am] SopanShewale:sorry guys.. need to go offline..
[10:45am] SopanShewale:will check the meeting content later
[10:45am] peterthoeny:oh, next topic is bug fixes
[10:46am] Peterjones:Topic rename is slow on big webs and we would have to only include the current web. I 
renamed 1500 topics last year but decided to do this with a Perl script
[10:47am] peterthoeny:wow, rename 1500 topics
[10:47am] peterthoeny:that would be impractical on the gui
[10:47am] Peterjones:This cam from a group that wanted to split its web in 2. One public and one private
[10:47am] peterthoeny:100gb data and pub is big
[10:48am] peterthoeny:you must have many large attachments
[10:48am] Peterjones:Yes lots of attachments. We need more gardners
[10:48am] peterthoeny:another bigger deployment i know has 35k pages and 24gb data and pub
[10:49am] ChengappaCB:I usually ask my guys to put the attachments elsewhere and give the link on the twiki pages.
[10:49am] ChengappaCB:Most of the attachments don't need revision control anyway
[10:49am] peterthoeny:chengappa, how big is your twiki?
[10:50am] ChengappaCB:It is very small... as far as I remember, it was about 4 GB....
[10:50am] peterthoeny:anything else on features?
[10:51am] peterthoeny:---++ 2. Review Urgent Bugs
[10:51am] peterthoeny:http://develop.twiki.org/~twiki4/cgi-bin/view/Bugs/ReleaseBlocker
[10:51am] ChengappaCB:doing away with the sidebar by implementing drop down menus seems like a good idea
[10:52am] peterthoeny:yes
[10:52am] ChengappaCB:It gives more space on the screen
[10:52am] peterthoeny:you gain screen real estate, reduce clutter, and make navigation better
[10:53am] Peterjones:We have a few webs that use the WebLeftBar alot. They INCLUDE other information on the fly
[10:53am] Peterjones:How would this proposal effect them?
[10:53am] peterthoeny:you could as well build menus on the fly
[10:53am] peterthoeny:or, do you have other stuff besides links in sidebar?
[10:54am] Peterjones:No generally just links created from SEARCH and INCLUDEs
[10:55am] peterthoeny:than it should just work fine with menus because they should be defined in topics anyway
[10:55am] peterthoeny:time check: +55 min
[10:55am] peterthoeny:on bugs we have 14 release blockers
[10:56am] peterthoeny:not all have been verified
[10:56am] peterthoeny:not too bad bug state, but we need to squish them before the 5.0 release
[10:57am] peterthoeny:Item6366: %RED% - colors syntax lost while WYSYWYG editor used to save the topics
[10:57am] peterthoeny:is listed as open
[10:57am] peterthoeny:i believe sopan fixed that
[10:57am] peterthoeny:that one can be closed i think, i will check with sopan
[10:57am] peterthoeny:any bug item you'd like to discuss?
[10:57am] Peterjones:Yes it seems to be fixed
[10:58am] peterthoeny:that makes it 13 release blocker bugs
[10:58am] Peterjones:Unlucky, quick better fix another
[10:59am] peterthoeny:Item6140 and Item5955 might be same bug
[10:59am] peterthoeny:"WysiwygPlugin failes to roundtrip tables that are created with align center"
[11:00am] peterthoeny:my younger brother was born on a feb 13th, he says that this is his lucky day
[11:01am] peterthoeny:sorry, s/feb/friday/
[11:01am] ChengappaCB:13 may be unlucky for the bugs ! They mey get solved sooner !
[11:01am] peterthoeny:that can be reduced
[11:02am] peterthoeny:some bugs might be duplicates
[11:02am] peterthoeny:i invite you to help out in bug assessment and fix
[11:02am] Peterjones:Sopan seems to have fixed Item6275
[11:02am] peterthoeny:---++ 3. Miscellaneous
[11:03am] Peterjones:I have a question on access control
[11:03am] peterthoeny:yes, likely that thsi is fixed: Item6275: Error while Registering new user
[11:04am] Peterjones:Should all bin/ files respect the same access control calls?
[11:06am] peterthoeny:basically yes
[11:06am] ChengappaCB:Guys, I am at an odd timezone... It is past midnight... need to get some sleep...sorry to 
be leaving...
[11:06am] Peterjones:We have changed slightly User.pm and all our tests are fine for ALLOWCHANGE and ALLOWVIEW
[11:07am] Peterjones:Ok ssee you ChengappaCB
[11:07am] peterthoeny:thank you ChengappaCB for attending the meeting, good night!
[11:07am] Peterjones:Do you wnat to call time Peter?
[11:07am] peterthoeny:no we can chat about access control
[11:07am] peterthoeny:falls under misc
[11:08am] ChengappaCB:Thank you. All the best !
[11:08am] peterthoeny:what need do you have on access control?
[11:08am] Peterjones:Ok, my problem is with the genpdf addon that does not react the same as view, edit, save etc
[11:08am]  ChengappaCB left the chat room.
[11:09am] peterthoeny:ah, yes, this script ought to obey twiki's access control
[11:09am] Peterjones:Althoug hthis is an addon I would have expected it to check permissions as the other scripts
[11:09am] peterthoeny:it does not?
[11:10am] Peterjones:I can now set access control with Set ALLOWTOPICVIEW = mygSSOroup
[11:11am] Peterjones:where mySSOgroup is a recognized group of users retuened by the apche daemon.
[11:11am] Peterjones:This works fine for view and edit but genpdf returns access denied.
[11:12am] peterthoeny:did you debug?
[11:12am] Peterjones:If I append my TWikiName to the ALLOWTOPICVIEW then genpdf works.
[11:12am] Peterjones:I am debugging now but am making slow progress.
[11:13am] Peterjones:Any suggestions would be welcome
[11:14am] peterthoeny:compare how access control is done in view script and genpdf script
[11:16am] peterthoeny:time check: +75 min
[11:16am] peterthoeny:shall we wrap up?
[11:16am] Peterjones:Will do. Can you confirm that all other scripts manage access control as the view script does?
[11:16am] peterthoeny:well, edit has different check for obvious reasons, but oops etc should be same as view
[11:17am] Peterjones:I mean it is possible that as genpdf is an addon it may have been written completely differently
[11:17am] peterthoeny:genpdf should be equivalent to view script in terms of access control
[11:18am] peterthoeny:yes, it is possible that the genpdf is written differenty, nevertheless the access control 
check should be the same
[11:18am] Peterjones:hmmm, ok I will need to dig alot deeper then as they dont behave the same with our changes
[11:20am] peterthoeny:ok
[11:20am] peterthoeny:shall we wrap up?
[11:20am] peterthoeny:herbivore: anything you'd like to discuss?
[11:21am] herbivore:no, nothing
[11:21am] peterthoeny:ok, thanks all for participating
[11:21am] Peterjones:Ok see you next time.
[11:21am]  Peterjones left the chat room. ("Java user signed off")
[11:21am] herbivore:cu
[11:21am] peterthoeny:i will post the meeting minutes and the irc log
[11:22am]  herbivore left the chat room.