Date: April 20, 2009 2:39:30 PM PDT
Subject: HelsinkiMeetingLog2009x04x20.txt

[09:47am]  peterthoeny rejoined the room.
[10:01am]  peterthoeny changed the topic to
"http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/HelsinkiReleaseMeeting2009x04x20".
[10:01am] peterthoeny:hi peter and quentin!
[10:01am] peterthoeny:you are right on time
[10:02am]  SopanShewale joined the chat room.
[10:03am] peterthoeny:hi sopan
[10:03am] SopanShewale:Hi PeterT/PeterJ - good morning
[10:04am]  petenixon joined the chat room.
[10:04am] peterthoeny:hi peter nixon!
[10:05am] petenixon:hi peter
[10:05am] peterthoeny:some big news today with sun!!
[10:05am] SopanShewale:yup.... Oracle/Sun
[10:05am] peterthoeny:wondering what will happen with mysql
[10:06am] petenixon:I'm wondering all the same things...  I think in general it's a good fit compared
to Sun/IBM
[10:06am] PeterJones:Good evening
[10:07am] peterthoeny:yes, overall good fit, gives oracle broader market on key language and os
[10:07am] peterthoeny:and gives sun more exposure
[10:07am] SopanShewale:worried on MySQL stuff
[10:07am] petenixon:Definitely opens up some possibilities for Sun hardware
[10:08am] petenixon:It'd be a big mistake to get rid of MySQL completely
[10:08am] peterthoeny:agreed
[10:08am] peterthoeny:and i don't think oracle will do that
[10:09am] petenixon:Similar story with sparc.  Big customer base there, and oracle runs well on sparc
[10:09am] peterthoeny:key question is how to position both dbs so that there is space for both
[10:10am] peterthoeny:oracle did the right thing with berkelydb, positioning it as an embeddable db
[10:10am] petenixon:It's two different spaces anyway.  MySQL = lowend, oracledb = high end high
performance
[10:12am] peterthoeny:time check: +12 min
[10:12am] peterthoeny:shall we start?
[10:13am] peterthoeny:meeting page is at
http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/HelsinkiReleaseMeeting2009x04x20
[10:13am] peterthoeny:proposed agenda:
[10:13am] peterthoeny:# 1. Feature requests for Helsinki Release
[10:13am] peterthoeny:# 2. Review Urgent Bugs
[10:13am] peterthoeny:shall we add anything to the agenda?
[10:15am] SopanShewale:i think this is sufficient
[10:15am] PeterJones:Fine for me
[10:15am] petenixon:Fine here
[10:15am] peterthoeny:ok
[10:15am] peterthoeny:who is taking notes?
[10:15am] peterthoeny:i can faciliate
[10:16am] petenixon:My attention is split at the moment, I'm probably not a good candidate...
[10:17am] peterthoeny:ok
[10:17am] peterthoeny:if nobody else, sopan or i will take notes
[10:17am]  Chengappa joined the chat room.
[10:18am] peterthoeny:hi chengappa, welcome here
[10:18am] Chengappa:Thanks Peter !
[10:18am] peterthoeny:since we have some new members, let;s start first with a one sentence intro
each, describing what you do with twiki
[10:19am] peterthoeny:and may be what you'd like to see added to twiki
[10:19am] Chengappa:I guess I go first, as my name appears first in the list..
[10:19am] peterthoeny:
[10:20am] Chengappa:I was told about TWiki by one of my friends in Texas Instruments...
[10:20am] Chengappa:some three years back...
[10:20am] PeterJones:PeterJones, TWiki at CERN administrator. I have a few requests and ideas for
enhancements.
[10:21am] Chengappa:I work for Logica India. I thouight it would be nice to have a wiki of our
own... for my division...
[10:21am] Chengappa:and created the Twiki portal.... We call it IMpedia....
[10:21am] peterthoeny:do you have twiki already deployed at logica?
[10:21am] Chengappa:IM is our division...
[10:21am] Chengappa:yes. Unofficially, though... for just my division...
[10:21am] peterthoeny:nice
[10:22am] Chengappa:i may not be aallowed to announce it officially though...
[10:22am] peterthoeny:don't worry, wikis are inherently viral
[10:22am] peterthoeny:execs have no choice but to make the wiki official at some point
[10:22am] Chengappa:with all the nice addons, we have been using it to send automatic mails, timetable
planner (for booking meeting rooms) etc...
[10:23am] peterthoeny:cool
[10:23am] peterthoeny:please consider writing a blog post on twiki.org how you use twiki!
[10:23am] Chengappa:My dream is to make it the wikipedia of IM... hence I gave it the name IMpedia
[10:23am] petenixon:PeterNixon, TWiki at Sun Microsystems (soon to be Oracle) administrator.  I
contributed HierarchicallyNestedWikiWebs and am looking for a more streamlined admin UI, better LDAP
integration and more modular skinning
[10:24am] petenixon:sorry to barge in there...
[10:24am] peterthoeny:modular skinning resonates a lot with me
[10:24am] peterthoeny:no, you are fine
[10:24am] peterthoeny:anybody else with short intro?
[10:24am] Chengappa:Please go ahead. I am done with my intro
[10:24am] SopanShewale:Good to listen about you Chengappa
[10:25am] petenixon:Nice usage Chengappa!
[10:25am] peterthoeny:here is my take: i started twiki over 10 years ago and am amazed in how many ways
twiki is used. i am looking forward pushing twiki up on enterprise deployments
[10:26am] Chengappa:IMHO, LDAP integration needs to modificatiosn...
[10:26am] Chengappa:nested groups are not displayed...
[10:26am] peterthoeny:and i am looking forward to work with the twiki community, now that we have a
clear governance structure in place
[10:27am] peterthoeny:time check: +27 min
[10:27am] peterthoeny:let's start
[10:27am] peterthoeny:---++ 1. Feature requests for Helsinki Release
[10:27am] peterthoeny:http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/TWikiFeatureProposals
[10:28am] petenixon:@Chengappa: agree on ldap
[10:28am] peterthoeny:let;s first do the formal part, looking at proposed features, then do some
brainstorming on features you'd like to see
[10:28am] peterthoeny:
http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/TWikiFeatureProposals#Proposals_where_14_day_rule_appl
[10:29am] peterthoeny:we have 3 old proposals and two new ones
[10:29am] peterthoeny:the old proposals need some tlc, or they should to be parked if no owner found
[10:29am] peterthoeny:AddLoggingHandler sounds like a useful small enhancement
[10:30am] peterthoeny:http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/AddLoggingHandler
[10:30am] peterthoeny:anyone intersted in implementing this?
[10:30am] petenixon:agreed.  I've been looking for this, useful for isolating debug output
[10:31am] peterthoeny:implementation should be very simple since it is simplhy exposing an internal
function in twiki::func
[10:32am] SopanShewale:any thoughts of using Log::Log4perl
[10:32am] peterthoeny:sorry, i misunderstood (realize after rereading proposal)
[10:32am] peterthoeny:there is some work involved
[10:32am] SopanShewale:but even using Log::Log4perl would be overload. one needs to be very careful for
implementing thiis
[10:32am] petenixon:looks like it needs to be a flexible back-end
[10:32am] peterthoeny:i was thinking of exposing the existing twiki log to plugins
[10:33am] peterthoeny:for example, the blacklistplugin uses an undocumented function to write blacklist
log entries to the log200904.txt file
[10:35am] petenixon:We need that basic functionality also, but I think the AddLoggingHandler topic
might be discussing something more involved, like logging to mysqldb, xml file or other file types.
[10:35am] peterthoeny:spec is not solidified on AddLoggingHandler page, and we have no committed
developer
[10:35am] peterthoeny:i suggest to park this until we have an owner
[10:35am] petenixon:second
[10:36am] peterthoeny:http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/AddSkinDirToTemplatePath
[10:36am] SopanShewale:this is interesting one for Skin Developers
[10:37am] SopanShewale:i have given some thought on this - can become a owner or ready to work with
others...this should be done over the period of time/over a few releases
[10:38am] peterthoeny:i think the whole skin creation and deployment process should be reviewed
[10:38am] peterthoeny:and simplified
[10:38am] SopanShewale:yes
[10:38am] peterthoeny:i started http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/SimplifySkinCreation a while back
[10:39am] peterthoeny:instead of adding little features on skin i think it is better to review the
whole skin stuff, then improve with a plan
[10:39am] SopanShewale:yes.. agree with Peter
[10:39am] peterthoeny:so i suggest to park AddSkinDirToTemplatePath until we see what is best done in
regards to skins
[10:40am] SopanShewale:yup
[10:40am] petenixon:sounds good
[10:40am] peterthoeny:http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/GeneralSortingMechanism
[10:40am] peterthoeny:i have not looked into this
[10:41am] peterthoeny:wondering how much need there is
[10:41am] peterthoeny:what are your thoughts?
[10:42am] SopanShewale:this proposal is interesting one ...
[10:42am] SopanShewale:can be good in long term
[10:43am] petenixon:If a massive sort is being invoked multiple times per page render, there's a
problem with implementation.
[10:44am] peterthoeny:yes. i am wondering what an actual use case is
[10:44am] PeterJones:How would this affect current plugins?
[10:44am] petenixon:Probably would just show up as a new hook for "high performance" sorting via
TWiki::Func
[10:44am] peterthoeny:i think the propser would like to add a sorting mechanism for new plugins
[10:45am] peterthoeny:yes
[10:45am] peterthoeny:i'd say this proposal has lower prio
[10:46am] peterthoeny:i am ok if implemented if owner and if spec that does not add additional required
cpan modules to default twiki distro
[10:46am] peterthoeny:time check: +46 min
[10:46am] SopanShewale:i will contribute my thoughts in the topic.. the proposal will look good by
adding clear Use Cases
[10:46am] peterthoeny:ok
[10:46am] peterthoeny:http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/DontExposeTWikiRootAsHtmlDocRoot
[10:47am] peterthoeny:i proposed this
[10:47am] peterthoeny:i have seen many mistakes made with apache config
[10:47am] PeterJones:This is a good idea. Good security etc
[10:47am] peterthoeny:that result in exposing more files via html doc root than intended
[10:48am] peterthoeny:i think this is a no-brainer fix
[10:48am] peterthoeny:question is if we should add this into next patch release, or wait for 4.4
[10:48am] peterthoeny:?
[10:48am] SopanShewale:early is best
[10:48am] peterthoeny:i agree
[10:49am] SopanShewale:Peter - let us target that in next release - whatever is the next release
(major/patch)
[10:49am] peterthoeny:other opinions?
[10:49am] petenixon:agree with Sopan
[10:49am] peterthoeny:ok
[10:49am] peterthoeny:http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/UseIsoDatesByDefault
[10:50am] peterthoeny:i have already enabled this on twiki.org
[10:50am] peterthoeny:nobody objected on twiki.org
[10:50am] PeterJones:i like this one
[10:50am] peterthoeny:proposed 16 days ago without concerns raised
[10:50am] SopanShewale:ah..thats the reason - while editing topics we get this date-format
[10:50am] peterthoeny:according to our release process this is accepted
[10:51am] petenixon:Sounds good. this format can be sorted
[10:51am] peterthoeny:as a side note, our release process is documented at
http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/TWikiReleaseManagementProcess
[10:52am] peterthoeny:next list: proposal with concerns raised:
[10:52am] peterthoeny:
http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/TWikiFeatureProposals#Proposals_with_concern_raised_14
[10:52am] peterthoeny:in interest of time, let's not review all, but please speak up if you'd like to
discuss one or the other in the list
[10:54am] peterthoeny:these are all very old proposals
[10:54am] peterthoeny:one stands out imho: database store
[10:54am] SopanShewale:http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/AllowSectionalEditingAtTwikiDotOrg - this
has some value in general
[10:55am] SopanShewale:i think a few wiki's support this - most probably "Trac" supports/even
MediaWiki supports
[10:56am] peterthoeny:sectional editing is nice if implemented properly
[10:56am] peterthoeny:mediawiki has an intuitive implementation
[10:56am] peterthoeny:twiki has several implementations
[10:56am] peterthoeny:i have not looked at those
[10:56am] SopanShewale:TWiki is too much Open
[10:57am] PeterJones:For large documents we use INCLUDE of seveal small ones. Easier to edit.
[10:57am] peterthoeny:agree though, that intuitive sectional editing should be part of twiki distro
[10:57am] peterthoeny:yes PeterJones, that is the approach i usually take
[10:57am] SopanShewale:i think  having sectional edit would help TWiki.org, may be we should try with
support Web/
[10:58am] peterthoeny:it takes more work to setup though and you need to learn about includes
[11:00am] peterthoeny:it would be a good exercise to review the current sectional editing solutions to
see if we have a good candidate to include in distro
[11:00am] SopanShewale:ok... seems nothing existing plugins work with WYSIWYG.. unless that works..
existing plugins can not be used
[11:00am] peterthoeny:agreed
[11:00am] petenixon:yes, it should work with WYSIWYG
[11:01am] peterthoeny:back to database store: any feedback how high that is on your list of priorities?
[11:03am] SopanShewale:database backend can boost the performance, espicially in search
[11:04am] SopanShewale:everyone will be happy to have this implemented
[11:04am] petenixon:agreed, even if DB is used to narrow the search before regexes are applied
[11:04am] PeterJones:Could a TWiki instance have flat file and DB backed for different webs
[11:05am] SopanShewale:on priority - its work for every TWiki admin... from convincing bosses to making
changes in implementation - so every one is trying to put that on low priority
[11:06am] peterthoeny:yes, i think db backend is needed and these details need to be worked out
[11:06am] peterthoeny:simplicity of flat files should not be neglected though
[11:06am] PeterJones:What size web would see benefits from a DB? 20,000 + topics
[11:07am] peterthoeny:one possible solution: keep flat file as system of record, and ad db to cache key
data for speed
[11:08am] peterthoeny:i know of two large deployments with over 200k pages, they had to disable the
"rename topic, searching for backlinks in all webs" because of performance issue
[11:08am] peterthoeny:those types of operations should be fast
[11:08am] petenixon:Yes, could use db as a cache.
[11:08am] petenixon:write-through, of course
[11:09am] PeterJones:I am seeing issues with rename on webs of over 10,000 topics (20,000 files). I
cant disable rename. Im wondering when these types of actions will become impossible
[11:10am] peterthoeny:i see we are in violent agreement for adding a db backend for performance
enhancement
[11:10am] peterthoeny:time check: +70 min
[11:10am] peterthoeny:let's do 20 more min most
[11:10am] SopanShewale:has any one already tried Peter
[11:10am] SopanShewale:db backend?
[11:11am] peterthoeny:two people talked about a test implementation with db backend
[11:11am] SopanShewale:ok..
[11:12am] peterthoeny:i think the db backend would be best done with some funding
[11:12am] peterthoeny:let's move on
[11:12am] peterthoeny:proposals ready for release:
[11:12am] peterthoeny:
http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/TWikiFeatureProposals#Feature_Proposals_Ready_For_Rele
[11:12am] peterthoeny:none are listed
[11:13am] peterthoeny:if you scroll down, we have plenty of "Accepted proposals waiting to be
implemented "
[11:13am] petenixon:Big list
[11:13am] peterthoeny:pick one from that list to discuss, or bring forward some new proposals to
discuss here
[11:14am] peterthoeny:let;s do that in free form
[11:14am] PeterJones:I have http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/PreferencesForRawEditOrWysiwygEdit
[11:15am] petenixon:Do any of these need new owners?
[11:16am] petenixon:or Developers, rather
[11:17am] petenixon:I'd want to make CaseInsensitiveUserMapping optional (turn on/off in LocalSite.cfg)
[11:17am] peterthoeny:a, you posted that on 2009-04-08
[11:18am] PeterJones:Sorry jumped the gun there
[11:18am] peterthoeny:if you are commited to implement this, add your name to the CommittedDeveloper
field, and add that date to the DateOfCommitment field
[11:18am] SopanShewale:New Implementations definitely want Wysiwyg first... new users are more
confortable with WYS...editing
[11:19am] peterthoeny:ideally that should be user selectable
[11:20am] peterthoeny:by default wysiwyg, with "raw edit" button as option
[11:21am] peterthoeny:can be set to raw edit as default in user preference, in which case, "wysiwyg
edit" buttion is shown as option
[11:21am] peterthoeny:i think that would be transparent to users
[11:21am] PeterJones:TWiki is very popular with many of our users because of the easy text editor.
However I agree that WYSIWYG is important and so I would like to see both available.
[11:21am] peterthoeny:time check: +81 min, 10 more min
[11:22am] PeterJones:with a webpreference for which one appears when one clicks on the link
[11:22am] petenixon:I see.  When creating a *new* topic, you want to be able to choose the editor.
[11:23am] peterthoeny:yes, if this is implemented as preference setting, it can be set per user or web
or site
[11:23am] petenixon:Yes, this should be a user/web preference.
[11:23am] peterthoeny:no, when creating a new topic, the editor of choice shoudl show up (the one set
in preferences)
[11:24am] petenixon:that's what I meant
[11:25am] peterthoeny:yes, like the default text editor set in unix
[11:25am] petenixon:is EDITOR taken?
[11:25am] peterthoeny:not that i know of
[11:26am] PeterJones:take an example of wnting to edit with raw edit, add a new link , save and then
click on the new link
[11:27am] PeterJones:the new link brings up the wysiwyg editor and teh author screams at the screen.
ive seen it happen
[11:27am] petenixon:I too have witnessed this
[11:28am] peterthoeny:PeterJones: would you like to drive the spec and implementation?
[11:28am] PeterJones:I will check it out
[11:28am] peterthoeny:cool!
[11:29am] SopanShewale:cool
[11:30am] peterthoeny:time check: +90 min
[11:31am] peterthoeny:shall we wrap up?anything else to discuss? defer urgent bugs to next time?
[11:31am] SopanShewale:fine with me
[11:32am] petenixon:Sure.  What's the target release date again?
[11:32am] peterthoeny:i encourage all to post new proposals or to pick up a proposal that is posted
[11:32am] Chengappa:Can I take leave of you guys if it is going to be still some more time ? it is 12
midnight in India
[11:32am] peterthoeny:if you pick one that  is already accepted you have green light to implement it
[11:33am] petenixon:Any way to tell if an proposal still has a developer or not?
[11:33am] peterthoeny:Chengappa: thanks for stopping by, feel free to participate in the future
[11:33am] peterthoeny:sopan is in same time zone
[11:33am] peterthoeny:good night
[11:33am] peterthoeny:and thanks all for participating!
[11:34am] peterthoeny:i'll post the logs
[11:34am] PeterJones:Cu next time
[11:34am] Chengappa:I will participate. Please do let me know when the next meeting happens... more for
some kind of moral support for you guys...though I may not be able to contribute technically...
[11:35am] Chengappa:Sopan... where are you from ?
[11:35am] peterthoeny:there is plenty to do besides coding!
[11:35am] peterthoeny:your support is appreciated
[11:35am] SopanShewale:Pune
[11:35am] SopanShewale:you?
[11:36am] Chengappa:OK. Goog night / morning / evening  all.
[11:36am] peterthoeny:release meetings are every two weeks, same time
[11:36am] Chengappa:Bangalore
[11:36am]  PeterJones left the chat room. ("Java user signed off")
[11:36am] Chengappa:Sure. Peter.
[11:36am] peterthoeny:subscribe to twiki-dev mailing list to get notified of upcoming events
[11:36am] Chengappa:Will do
[11:36am] peterthoeny:http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/TWikiDevMailingList
[11:37am] SopanShewale:ah.. good .. catch any time on IRC for the discussion
[11:38am] Chengappa:OK.
[11:38am] SopanShewale:Pune
[11:38am] SopanShewale:bye every one
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[11:38am] petenixon:Thanks guys, good discussion
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