(Local time zone is UTC+2 hours CEST)
[08/05/12 18:45] *** peterthoeny (n=PeterTho@63.146.69.17) has joined channel #twiki_release
[08/05/12 20:02] *** ArthurClemens (n=ArthurCl@natpool-1.lostboys.nl) has joined channel #twiki_release
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[08/05/12 20:03] <ArthurClemens_> good evening
[08/05/12 20:03] <uebera||> Hi there! :)
[08/05/12 20:03] <ArthurClemens_> still doing the dishes
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[08/05/12 21:01] *** OliverKrueger (n=okrueger@dslb-082-083-213-093.pools.arcor-ip.net) has joined channel #twiki_release
[08/05/12 21:02] *** OliverKrueger (n=okrueger@dslb-082-083-213-093.pools.arcor-ip.net) has set the topic for #twiki_release: "http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/GeorgetownReleaseMeeting2008x05x12"
[08/05/12 21:02] <PeterThoeny_> hi arthur, koen, oliver, (sven here?), markus!
[08/05/12 21:02] <uebera||> Hi, Peter. :)
[08/05/12 21:03] <uebera||> ... & all. ;)
[08/05/12 21:03] <OliverKrueger> Hi PT
[08/05/12 21:03] <OliverKrueger> := (all incl. Peter) ;)
[08/05/12 21:04] <PeterThoeny_> kenneth might not join today, he is still traveling
[08/05/12 21:05] <OliverKrueger> We can do the minutes in german this time. ;)
[08/05/12 21:05] <PeterThoeny_> nice to see you here again oliver!
[08/05/12 21:06] <PeterThoeny_> arthur, sprichst du deutsch?
[08/05/12 21:06] <PeterThoeny_> :-)
[08/05/12 21:06] <uebera||> In that case, we should add a bablefish link, hm? ;)
[08/05/12 21:06] <uebera||> s /bable/babel/
[08/05/12 21:06] <OliverKrueger> and a BabelfishPlugin for the references topics.
[08/05/12 21:07] <PeterThoeny_> ich speche swizertuetsch mit meinen kindern
[08/05/12 21:07] <OliverKrueger> I thought you were from Austria.
[08/05/12 21:08] <PeterThoeny_> nop
[08/05/12 21:08] <PeterThoeny_> grew up in graubuenden (near austria though)
[08/05/12 21:09] <OliverKrueger> Which Kanton is that?
[08/05/12 21:09] <PeterThoeny_> graubuenden :-)
[08/05/12 21:09] <OliverKrueger> oops. :)
[08/05/12 21:09] <PeterThoeny_> my mom still runs a bad and breakfast there
[08/05/12 21:09] <PeterThoeny_> http://www.thoeny.com/peter/schuders/index.html
[08/05/12 21:09] <OliverKrueger> Havent heard of that one.
[08/05/12 21:09] <PeterThoeny_> it is mainly mountains
[08/05/12 21:09] <PeterThoeny_> the biggest canton
[08/05/12 21:10] <PeterThoeny_> english name is grison
[08/05/12 21:10] <OliverKrueger> oh, nice colors on that page.. ;)
[08/05/12 21:10] <PeterThoeny_> we go there next month for vacation
[08/05/12 21:10] <PeterThoeny_> +10 min, shall we start?
[08/05/12 21:11] <uebera||> Ok. Who takes the notes?
[08/05/12 21:11] <PeterThoeny_> who is taking notes, who is facilitating?
[08/05/12 21:11] <PeterThoeny_> i can facilitate unless someone would like to
[08/05/12 21:11] <uebera||> I can take the notes (will edit the page afterwards, if that's ok?)
[08/05/12 21:11] <PeterThoeny_> vilen dank markus
[08/05/12 21:11] <OliverKrueger> Im not really prepared... havent read the topic... :-(
[08/05/12 21:12] <PeterThoeny_> makus, could you also attach the log afterwards?
[08/05/12 21:12] <uebera||> yes, np.
[08/05/12 21:12] <PeterThoeny_> yes, editing after meeting is certainly fine
[08/05/12 21:12] <ArthurClemens> hey, there you are
[08/05/12 21:12] <OliverKrueger> Hi Arthur
[08/05/12 21:12] <ArthurClemens> I was here at 1900 GMT
[08/05/12 21:13] <ArthurClemens> one hour ago
[08/05/12 21:13] <PeterThoeny_> hi arthur
[08/05/12 21:13] <ArthurClemens> hi
[08/05/12 21:13] <OliverKrueger> sure about GMT?
[08/05/12 21:13] <uebera||> According to the time zone converter, it's now 19:13 GMT ;)
[08/05/12 21:13] *** MatthewMetzger (n=MatthewM@mnch-06-4066.dsl.iowatelecom.net) has joined channel #twiki_release
[08/05/12 21:13] <PeterThoeny_> so you got extra time for dish washing $:-)
[08/05/12 21:14] <PeterThoeny_> hi matthew, welcome here!
[08/05/12 21:14] <MatthewMetzger> Thanks Peter
[08/05/12 21:14] <PeterThoeny_> do you want to introduce yourself quickly?
[08/05/12 21:14] <PeterThoeny_> proposed agenda:
[08/05/12 21:15] <PeterThoeny_> # 1. Review Urgent Bugs with 4.2.1 scope
[08/05/12 21:15] <PeterThoeny_> # 2. Feature requests for Georgetown Release
[08/05/12 21:15] <PeterThoeny_> # 3. Proposal for new core team
[08/05/12 21:15] <PeterThoeny_> anything to add?
[08/05/12 21:15] <MatthewMetzger> Sure. I'm a sysadmin for a small private school that uses TWiki. I'm just sitting in on this meeting because I'm interested.
[08/05/12 21:15] <OliverKrueger> Hi Matthew
[08/05/12 21:15] <MatthewMetzger> Hello OliverKrueger 
[08/05/12 21:15] <PeterThoeny_> ok, stick around and please feel free to voice your voice :-)
[08/05/12 21:15] <MatthewMetzger> okay :)
[08/05/12 21:15] <PeterThoeny_> do you know perl?
[08/05/12 21:16] <MatthewMetzger> PeterThoeny_: not fluently. 
[08/05/12 21:16] <PeterThoeny_> ---++ 1. Review Urgent Bugs with 4.2.1 scope
[08/05/12 21:16] <MatthewMetzger> I'll be trying to learn more later this year. All my favorite applications seem to be programed in perl.
[08/05/12 21:17] <PeterThoeny_> we have made some progress with bug fixing
[08/05/12 21:17] <PeterThoeny_> thanks to all who help out
[08/05/12 21:17] <PeterThoeny_> we have still a number of release blockers
[08/05/12 21:18] <PeterThoeny_> e.g. bugs to squish before we can release 4.2.1
[08/05/12 21:18] <PeterThoeny_> http://develop.twiki.org/~twiki4/cgi-bin/view/Bugs/ReleaseBlocker
[08/05/12 21:18] <PeterThoeny_> kenneth is not here today to run through the bugs
[08/05/12 21:18] <OliverKrueger> Do we discuss all of them of just the "New" or "Confirmed" ones?
[08/05/12 21:18] <PeterThoeny_> wondering if we should pick some, or run through all release blockers
[08/05/12 21:19] <uebera||> I'd like to talk about Bugs:Item5511, too (Waiting for Feedback).
[08/05/12 21:20] <ArthurClemens> most confirmed bugs we don't need to discuss
[08/05/12 21:20] <ArthurClemens> they just need work
[08/05/12 21:20] <ArthurClemens> 5511 was voted on
[08/05/12 21:20] <OliverKrueger> http://develop.twiki.org/~twiki4/cgi-bin/view/Bugs/Item5511
[08/05/12 21:20] <PeterThoeny_> Bugs:Item5511 - Updated attachment gets renamed to attachment name: leads to read errors
[08/05/12 21:21] <ArthurClemens> all proposed solutions point to a feedback mechanism we don't have
[08/05/12 21:21] <uebera||> Yes, but the vote was not unanonymous and (therefore) nobody picked it up since last meeting.
[08/05/12 21:21] <ArthurClemens> that makes the scope wider than a patch release
[08/05/12 21:22] <uebera||> I'd suggest to document the change and mark it as "Deferred" at least for 4.2.1
[08/05/12 21:23] <ArthurClemens> admins will have to train users that they first need to delete a file before they can update the old one
[08/05/12 21:24] <PeterThoeny_> it looks like consensus is towards keeping current (e.g. new) spec and document it
[08/05/12 21:24] <PeterThoeny_> i am fine with this even though i votes to revert
[08/05/12 21:25] <PeterThoeny_> although it looks like a sensible thing to warn if the extension is differnet
[08/05/12 21:25] <ArthurClemens> uebera||: anything to add?
[08/05/12 21:25] <ArthurClemens> let's move on
[08/05/12 21:26] <PeterThoeny_> Bugs:Item5602 - Web Rename not following　ALLOWWEBRENAME　Preference
[08/05/12 21:27] <PeterThoeny_> http://develop.twiki.org/~twiki4/cgi-bin/view/Bugs/Item5602
[08/05/12 21:28] <PeterThoeny_> i think there is an issue that needs to be fixed
[08/05/12 21:28] <ArthurClemens> we have to test this
[08/05/12 21:28] <PeterThoeny_> but it is also a doc issue
[08/05/12 21:29] <PeterThoeny_> ALLOWWEBRENAME suggests permission to rename web, where in fact it is permissions to rename topics in a web
[08/05/12 21:29] <ArthurClemens> aha
[08/05/12 21:29] <OliverKrueger> Oh I was never aware of that.
[08/05/12 21:29] <PeterThoeny_> this is probably a bug that is here since 4.0, e.g. the revampt permissions
[08/05/12 21:29] <OliverKrueger> (in 4 years of twiki)
[08/05/12 21:29] <PeterThoeny_> so i think we should downgrade it to normal (not a release blocker for 4.2.1)
[08/05/12 21:30] <uebera||> If the behaviour didn't change in the last month, that should be ok.
[08/05/12 21:30] <PeterThoeny_> same doc issue with allowwebchange, it does not mean permission to change the name of the web, rather, permission to change topics in the web
[08/05/12 21:31] <PeterThoeny_> ok, downgrade to normal, noting the reason
[08/05/12 21:31] <ArthurClemens> then how is the renaming of webs protected?
[08/05/12 21:32] <PeterThoeny_> Bugs:Item5443 - Searches related to TOPICINFO don't work as expected
[08/05/12 21:32] <PeterThoeny_> http://develop.twiki.org/~twiki4/cgi-bin/view/Bugs/Item5443
[08/05/12 21:33] <OliverKrueger> Interesting question, ArthurClemens
[08/05/12 21:33] <PeterThoeny_> on rename of webs: yes, it needs to be protected
[08/05/12 21:33] <PeterThoeny_> e.g. bug needs to be fixed (not for 4.2.1)
[08/05/12 21:34] <ArthurClemens> so we split the bug report in 2?
[08/05/12 21:34] <PeterThoeny_> 5443 is a tricky one
[08/05/12 21:35] <uebera||> Arthur: (1) correct the documentation and (2) protect webs from getting renamed?
[08/05/12 21:35] <ArthurClemens> uebera||: yes
[08/05/12 21:35] <PeterThoeny_> on 5602 i sugegst to leave as one bug until someone investigates on protecting web renames (there might be a way that needs to be documented)
[08/05/12 21:36] <PeterThoeny_> if it turns out that there is no way to protect a web rename we should split it up into 2 bug items
[08/05/12 21:37] <uebera||> ok, but we should add the suggestion above to Item5602.
[08/05/12 21:38] <uebera||> until now, I never renamed a web using a non-admin account... I thought you need to be admin to do that ;)
[08/05/12 21:38] <PeterThoeny_> yes markus, can you take the action item to update the bug item?
[08/05/12 21:38] <uebera||> will do.
[08/05/12 21:39] <PeterThoeny_> on 5443, crawford's suggestion is a sensible one
[08/05/12 21:39] <PeterThoeny_> needs to be tested thoroughly, out of scope for 4.2.1 release
[08/05/12 21:39] <PeterThoeny_> so, reprioritize to normal?
[08/05/12 21:40] <uebera||> := "not a blocker for 4.2.1".
[08/05/12 21:40] <PeterThoeny_> yes, we we agree on reprioritizing this to normal
[08/05/12 21:42] <PeterThoeny_> no voices against, so let's do it :-)
[08/05/12 21:42] <uebera||> ok... on to 5443? (can't say anything about it)
[08/05/12 21:42] <PeterThoeny_> * Bugs:Item5529 - SEARCHes of type word do not work if word is non-English and with TWiki running utf-8
[08/05/12 21:42] <PeterThoeny_> http://develop.twiki.org/~twiki4/cgi-bin/view/Bugs/Item5529
[08/05/12 21:42] <PeterThoeny_> i18n issue
[08/05/12 21:43] <PeterThoeny_> clearly a bug
[08/05/12 21:44] <ArthurClemens> I guess the regexes still use a-zA-Z
[08/05/12 21:44] <PeterThoeny_> yes, or perl word boundaries
[08/05/12 21:45] <PeterThoeny_> which is not  aware of multi-byte utf-8 cahrs
[08/05/12 21:45] <ArthurClemens> the latter would be better
[08/05/12 21:45] <ArthurClemens> ah
[08/05/12 21:45] <PeterThoeny_> would this be a simply (workaround) fix? : scan for punctuation and whitespace instead of perl word boundaries
[08/05/12 21:45] <PeterThoeny_> (i just added this comment to the bug topic)
[08/05/12 21:46] <uebera||> what about '<' and '>' and &#nbr; (semicolon)?
[08/05/12 21:46] <OliverKrueger> and the ampersand?
[08/05/12 21:46] <PeterThoeny_> * Bugs:Item5485 - Attachments containing special characters (e.g. german umlauts: ä ö ü) can not be opened any more
[08/05/12 21:47] <PeterThoeny_> http://develop.twiki.org/~twiki4/cgi-bin/view/Bugs/Item5485
[08/05/12 21:47] <uebera||> I'd like to close this particular item.
[08/05/12 21:47] <uebera||> Reason: web server problem.
[08/05/12 21:47] <OliverKrueger> yep
[08/05/12 21:48] <PeterThoeny_> on 5529, yes, those apply too, e.g. scan for a set of chars to exclude
[08/05/12 21:48] <OliverKrueger> Do you want to exclude umlauts from filenames?
[08/05/12 21:49] <ArthurClemens> there is something like 'use utf8';
[08/05/12 21:49] <OliverKrueger> PeterThoeny_: sorry, I mixed up the items.
[08/05/12 21:49] <PeterThoeny_> umlauts and multi-byte chars in file attachment names should be supported
[08/05/12 21:49] <OliverKrueger> yep
[08/05/12 21:50] <PeterThoeny_> Item5485 looks like a real blocker?
[08/05/12 21:50] <PeterThoeny_> who can work on it?
[08/05/12 21:51] <uebera||> I was talking about 5485. There's nothing we could do for the very use case.
[08/05/12 21:51] <OliverKrueger> No, its just a webserver config issue.
[08/05/12 21:51] <uebera||> The problem is that the webserver is unable to map the encoded umlauts 'onto' the local filenames.
[08/05/12 21:51] <uebera||> The resulting GET 'bypasses' TWiki.
[08/05/12 21:52] <PeterThoeny_> ah
[08/05/12 21:52] <ArthurClemens> perl + unicode: http://search.cpan.org/~rgarcia/perl-5.10.0/pod/perluniintro.pod
[08/05/12 21:53] <PeterThoeny_> so is this a i18n doc issue?
[08/05/12 21:53] <ArthurClemens> about unicode in perl 5.8
[08/05/12 21:53] <uebera||> yes.
[08/05/12 21:53] <ArthurClemens> sorry
[08/05/12 21:54] <uebera||> I guess there is a config option for Apache, maybe we should ask in #apache... (haven't tried IIS yet).
[08/05/12 21:55] <PeterThoeny_> ok, so reprioritize to normal (doc work)
[08/05/12 21:55] <uebera||> +1
[08/05/12 21:55] <PeterThoeny_> * Bugs:Item5447 - If =manage= requires login, impossible to change password
[08/05/12 21:55] <PeterThoeny_> http://develop.twiki.org/~twiki4/cgi-bin/view/Bugs/Item5447
[08/05/12 21:56] <PeterThoeny_> this items bounces back and forth between sven and arthur
[08/05/12 21:56] <PeterThoeny_> arthur, can you give an update?
[08/05/12 21:58] <PeterThoeny_> arthur seems to have stepped out for a moment
[08/05/12 21:58] <ArthurClemens> change password is performed by manage
[08/05/12 21:58] <ArthurClemens> and that script requires a login
[08/05/12 21:59] <ArthurClemens> so change password should be performed by another script
[08/05/12 21:59] <PeterThoeny_> yes, chicken and egg problem if you forgot the pwd
[08/05/12 21:59] <PeterThoeny_> another option is to use manage and manageauth
[08/05/12 22:00] <PeterThoeny_> have manageauth authenticated (like viewauth)
[08/05/12 22:00] <ArthurClemens> I see we decided on something
[08/05/12 22:00] <ArthurClemens> long ago
[08/05/12 22:00] <ArthurClemens> (1 month)
[08/05/12 22:00] <PeterThoeny_> redirect from manage to manageauth if needed
[08/05/12 22:00] <ArthurClemens> I will get back to that
[08/05/12 22:01] <ArthurClemens> next
[08/05/12 22:01] <PeterThoeny_> ok, there are a number of other bug items
[08/05/12 22:01] <PeterThoeny_> time check: +60 min
[08/05/12 22:02] <PeterThoeny_> I suggest we go to next action item unless someone would like to cover one or two bug items
[08/05/12 22:02] <PeterThoeny_> ?
[08/05/12 22:02] <uebera||> What about Item5608?
[08/05/12 22:02] <uebera||> When was ScriptUrlPaths introduced? Is this really a blockeR?
[08/05/12 22:02] * OliverKrueger just found https://issues.apache.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=24333 which is interesting for Bugs.Item5485
[08/05/12 22:03] <PeterThoeny_> ok
[08/05/12 22:03] <PeterThoeny_> * Bugs:Item5608 - =ScriptUrlPaths= is not documented
[08/05/12 22:03] <PeterThoeny_> http://develop.twiki.org/~twiki4/cgi-bin/view/Bugs/Item5608
[08/05/12 22:04] <ArthurClemens> no hint on what it does
[08/05/12 22:04] <PeterThoeny_> agreed that it needs to be documented, but not a blocker for 4.2.1
[08/05/12 22:04] <uebera||> Someone could run grep on the repository and see who introduced it and whether it's commented.
[08/05/12 22:04] <uebera||> +1
[08/05/12 22:05] <PeterThoeny_> any other bug item?
[08/05/12 22:06] <PeterThoeny_> if not lets continue
[08/05/12 22:06] <OliverKrueger> k
[08/05/12 22:06] <PeterThoeny_> ---++ 2. Feature requests for Georgetown Release
[08/05/12 22:06] <PeterThoeny_> http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/TWikiFeatureProposals#ProposalsReadyForReleaseMeeting
[08/05/12 22:07] <PeterThoeny_> two very old proposals that got discussed for a long time
[08/05/12 22:07] <PeterThoeny_> should be cover today? possible to decide?
[08/05/12 22:07] <ArthurClemens> there has been no progress on ProcessAddToHeadAdds
[08/05/12 22:07] <PeterThoeny_> http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/ProcessAddToHeadAdds
[08/05/12 22:08] <ArthurClemens> neither on TWikiFormInheritance
[08/05/12 22:08] <PeterThoeny_> what is holding up the proposal?
[08/05/12 22:08] <ArthurClemens> I haven't spent any time on it
[08/05/12 22:10] * OliverKrueger has no opinion on that since he did not follow the discussion.
[08/05/12 22:10] <PeterThoeny_> you as the committed developer can come up with a refinement we can agree on
[08/05/12 22:10] <PeterThoeny_> i think step by step approach is fine
[08/05/12 22:11] <PeterThoeny_> personally i like tour proposal
[08/05/12 22:11] <PeterThoeny_> if the concern on the simplifying the position ranges can be addressed we have a winner
[08/05/12 22:11] <PeterThoeny_> (although i am fine as is)
[08/05/12 22:13] <PeterThoeny_> one issue on process is that we are not that many people in the release meetings, which non participants take as a reason to say that we cannot decide at the meetings
[08/05/12 22:13] <ArthurClemens> I still need to review the proposals in http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/ProcessAddToHeadAddsTalk
[08/05/12 22:13] <PeterThoeny_> where in fact we have a clearly stated process and _should_ and can decide on proposals waiting to be covered
[08/05/12 22:14] <uebera||> Yes, me too. Haven't looked at the attached plugin yet.
[08/05/12 22:15] <PeterThoeny_> ok, arthur, i suggest to review the talk page and tweak the proposal a bit to get the person who raised concern to agree
[08/05/12 22:15] <PeterThoeny_> hopefully this happens before the next release meeting
[08/05/12 22:15] <PeterThoeny_> if not we can decide in 2 weeks
[08/05/12 22:15] <ArthurClemens> Crawford's proposal looks fine, but I need to try it
[08/05/12 22:15] <ArthurClemens> ok
[08/05/12 22:15] <PeterThoeny_> (i need to be offline for a few min, sorry)
[08/05/12 22:16] <uebera||> btw: is there a topic which lists the changes 4.2.1 would bring if it was released tomorrow?
[08/05/12 22:17] <uebera||> Peter: should we proceed to "3. Proposal for new core team" then?
[08/05/12 22:18] <ArthurClemens> http://develop.twiki.org/~twiki4/cgi-bin/view/Bugs/ReleaseNotes?type=n%2Fa%7Cpatch
[08/05/12 22:18] <uebera||> Ah, thanks!
[08/05/12 22:23] <PeterThoeny_> (sorry, i am back from phone call with our ceo)
[08/05/12 22:24] <PeterThoeny_> anyone wants to quickly comment on http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/TWikiFormInheritance
[08/05/12 22:24] <PeterThoeny_> ?
[08/05/12 22:25] <OliverKrueger> nope
[08/05/12 22:25] <uebera||> no
[08/05/12 22:25] <PeterThoeny_> gmc, are you here?
[08/05/12 22:26] <OliverKrueger> is t.o. down?
[08/05/12 22:26] <uebera||> works for me.
[08/05/12 22:26] <OliverKrueger> hmm
[08/05/12 22:27] <PeterThoeny_> the last time koen (the committed developer) addressed questions was two month ago
[08/05/12 22:28] <PeterThoeny_> the spec of the proposal has not been updated for a long time
[08/05/12 22:28] <PeterThoeny_> so i would give an action item to gmc to address the feedback and to tweak the proposal a bit
[08/05/12 22:28] <OliverKrueger> k
[08/05/12 22:29] <PeterThoeny_> i am for a quick(er) decision, but concerns need to addressed as well
[08/05/12 22:29] <PeterThoeny_> time check: +90 min
[08/05/12 22:29] <PeterThoeny_> ---++  3. Proposal for new core team
[08/05/12 22:30] <PeterThoeny_> instead of proposing a new core team structure today i'd like to have an open ended discussion on the needs of the community
[08/05/12 22:30] <PeterThoeny_> i will take this as input to propose a new structure
[08/05/12 22:31] <PeterThoeny_> shall we spend 20 min on the discussion?
[08/05/12 22:31] <ArthurClemens> ok
[08/05/12 22:31] <uebera||> ok.
[08/05/12 22:32] <PeterThoeny_> (i wish i could present you with a proposal but i am very much late on everything lately)
[08/05/12 22:32] <OliverKrueger> What is the motivation behind this topic?
[08/05/12 22:33] <PeterThoeny_> so first a question: how can we organize ourselfs to: make quick decisions, increase our community, have fun
[08/05/12 22:33] <ArthurClemens> I think we need to show we are an open community
[08/05/12 22:33] <PeterThoeny_> at the second summit we discussed to revamp the core team in regards to governance
[08/05/12 22:34] <PeterThoeny_> one key contributor stopped contributing until this is settled
[08/05/12 22:34] <ArthurClemens> the current core team devides 'team functions' between members
[08/05/12 22:35] <PeterThoeny_> kenneth and i feel that the current process more or less works, but that we need to enhance the process so that we can scale better
[08/05/12 22:35] <PeterThoeny_> currently we have a very open and democratic process to decide on features
[08/05/12 22:35] <ArthurClemens> 1. it looks as if we have special status, special meetings, and that we decide on twiki above the rest of the community
[08/05/12 22:36] <ArthurClemens> the current and open reality is not reflected in the 'core team' status
[08/05/12 22:36] <PeterThoeny_> we can apply the same for strategic question, in addition to f2f meetings
[08/05/12 22:36] <PeterThoeny_> yes, the main purpose of the core team at this time is to put on breaks if needed
[08/05/12 22:36] <PeterThoeny_> with veto power
[08/05/12 22:37] <PeterThoeny_> we never used it so far
[08/05/12 22:37] <ArthurClemens> I cannot foresee if this will be necessary
[08/05/12 22:37] <PeterThoeny_> and it is not likely to be used unless someone tries to push somthing that is totally out of line with the core twiki mission
[08/05/12 22:37] <ArthurClemens> but have a look at http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/CoreTeam
[08/05/12 22:38] <ArthurClemens> we have people with a status, and we have roles
[08/05/12 22:38] <PeterThoeny_> yes, and the community pushed back on the roles a long time ago
[08/05/12 22:39] <ArthurClemens> we can describe what we think is needed
[08/05/12 22:39] <PeterThoeny_> hence almost the only real purpose is the vet power at this time
[08/05/12 22:39] <ArthurClemens> to keep the quality of twiki
[08/05/12 22:40] <ArthurClemens> I propose that we have an alternative setup for twiki 'tasks' (for lack of a better name)
[08/05/12 22:41] <PeterThoeny_> arthur, please elaborate
[08/05/12 22:42] <ArthurClemens> for instance the 'TWiki Architect Role'. does it describe what we need?
[08/05/12 22:42] <PeterThoeny_> others too, please help brainstorm how we can get organized so that your features/priorities get addressed
[08/05/12 22:42] <ArthurClemens> we have a roadmap for the next major release
[08/05/12 22:42] <ArthurClemens> we need help on architectural issues for sure
[08/05/12 22:43] <ArthurClemens> I feel we need the emphasis on this task: TWiki architecture related to the next release
[08/05/12 22:44] <ArthurClemens> and we need discussions that are above the feature requests
[08/05/12 22:44] <ArthurClemens> so we have the task and we need people for that
[08/05/12 22:44] <PeterThoeny_> would focused teams help to make quick & good decisions?
[08/05/12 22:45] <PeterThoeny_> yes, architecture discussions are best done interactively
[08/05/12 22:45] <ArthurClemens> I don't know. We did some restructuring work on twiki.org ourselves in a small team, with Kenneth
[08/05/12 22:46] <ArthurClemens> but it died out when the most important issues were resolved
[08/05/12 22:46] <ArthurClemens> we did not have a continous discussion on these things
[08/05/12 22:47] <ArthurClemens> same goes for usability. I think I could do a lot with Carlo
[08/05/12 22:47] <ArthurClemens> but we are lacking a framework
[08/05/12 22:47] <ArthurClemens> not necessarily a team, but at least to have a 'home'
[08/05/12 22:48] <PeterThoeny_> may be i am wrong, but i have a hunch that small focused teams get things done quickly, they can "hire" new contributors
[08/05/12 22:48] <PeterThoeny_> and with some cross functional things which could be the new core team?
[08/05/12 22:49] <ArthurClemens> for what kind of issues do we need a core team?
[08/05/12 22:49] <PeterThoeny_> the term core team is overloaded, it needs a new name too
[08/05/12 22:49] <PeterThoeny_> if we have, say 5 focus groups we need to coordinate
[08/05/12 22:49] <PeterThoeny_> that could be the purpose of the new core team
[08/05/12 22:50] <ArthurClemens> coordination can still happen in release meetings
[08/05/12 22:50] <ArthurClemens> I would not favor 'secret' meetings
[08/05/12 22:50] <PeterThoeny_> that is a good question
[08/05/12 22:50] <ArthurClemens> how many vetoes rights do we need?
[08/05/12 22:51] <ArthurClemens> could that be one circulating member?
[08/05/12 22:51] <ArthurClemens> to be voted upon once a year?
[08/05/12 22:51] <PeterThoeny_> on meetings, one option is to have meetings per focus group, open to all who like to drop by, and a new core team to coordinate
[08/05/12 22:51] <PeterThoeny_> or just one type of meeting?
[08/05/12 22:51] <uebera||> a single member which holds the vetoes rights?
[08/05/12 22:52] <ArthurClemens> perhaps Peter as benevolent facilitator and one other member?
[08/05/12 22:52] *** MatthewMetzger (n=MatthewM@mnch-06-4066.dsl.iowatelecom.net) has quit: 
[08/05/12 22:52] <ArthurClemens> one release meeting should suffice
[08/05/12 22:53] <ArthurClemens> most people have a lot of meetings going on in their lives
[08/05/12 22:53] <ArthurClemens> the core team should be the TWikiFacilitatorTeam
[08/05/12 22:53] <PeterThoeny_> what if a member of each focus group is representing the needs to the new core team, e.g. would be member of the new core team?
[08/05/12 22:54] <ArthurClemens> facilitating, not meeting to decide
[08/05/12 22:54] <ArthurClemens> that would imply that focus groups are fixed structures
[08/05/12 22:54] <ArthurClemens> I don't think it will work
[08/05/12 22:54] <ArthurClemens> perhaps for some, not for all
[08/05/12 22:55] <PeterThoeny_> no, it would mean a committed lead for a certain period of time, such as one year
[08/05/12 22:55] <uebera||> sounds good. plus one 'second in command' just in case...
[08/05/12 22:56] <PeterThoeny_> mr spock
[08/05/12 22:56] <ArthurClemens> I think the TWiki community has shown to avoid these kind of structures
[08/05/12 22:56] <PeterThoeny_> back to the roots of twiki: robot in sapce :-)
[08/05/12 22:57] <ArthurClemens> then we end up with a lot of groups without people
[08/05/12 22:57] <PeterThoeny_> arthur, i am not sure, we have seen that core team roles are tired
[08/05/12 22:57] <PeterThoeny_> but focus teams with leads could be wired
[08/05/12 22:58] <PeterThoeny_> oliver, koen, markus, any other feedback?
[08/05/12 22:59] <uebera||> not at the moment. I'll have to think about it.
[08/05/12 22:59] <PeterThoeny_> time check: +120 min
[08/05/12 22:59] <PeterThoeny_> good feedback so far
[08/05/12 23:00] <ArthurClemens> I think there is enough food to feed the community
[08/05/12 23:00] <PeterThoeny_> i wish the release meetings would be better attended
[08/05/12 23:00] <OliverKrueger> neither from me, atm
[08/05/12 23:00] <PeterThoeny_> especially this one where we have the new core team as an agenda item
[08/05/12 23:00] <ArthurClemens> people have been asking for ideas and comments not just from developers
[08/05/12 23:00] <ArthurClemens> so we could elaborate on Codev
[08/05/12 23:01] <ArthurClemens> time for me
[08/05/12 23:01] <ArthurClemens> PeterThoeny_: thanks, thanks everyone
[08/05/12 23:01] <uebera||> bye, Arthur. :) 
[08/05/12 23:01] <ArthurClemens> ciao
[08/05/12 23:01] <OliverKrueger> bye ArthurClemens
[08/05/12 23:01] <PeterThoeny_> yes, i also need to sign off
[08/05/12 23:01] <PeterThoeny_> thanks arthur!
[08/05/12 23:02] *** ArthurClemens (n=ArthurCl@ip56507f6a.direct-adsl.nl) has quit: 
[08/05/12 23:02] <OliverKrueger> bye Peter
[08/05/12 23:02] <PeterThoeny_> feel free to continue the discussion
[08/05/12 23:02] <PeterThoeny_> possibly in #twiki
[08/05/12 23:02] <uebera||> yes.
[08/05/12 23:03] <PeterThoeny_> thanks all for participating!
[08/05/12 23:03] <PeterThoeny_> tty soon
[08/05/12 23:03] <uebera||> Bye, Peter. :)
[08/05/12 23:04] *** OliverKrueger (n=okrueger@dslb-082-083-213-093.pools.arcor-ip.net) has left channel #twiki_release: "Konversation terminated!"
[08/05/12 23:05] <uebera||> Further comments that should go in today's log, anyone? ;)
[08/05/12 23:08] <uebera||> If not, I'm going to clean it up a little (i.e., remove local reconnects and duplicate lines from my IRC bouncer) an attach it...
ERC>