[10:19] *** Initial topic: http://develop.twiki.org/~twiki4/cgi-bin/view/Bugs/ReleaseBlockers
[10:19] *** #twiki_release: PeterThoeny SvenDowideit gmc WikiRingBot 
[10:20] *** #twiki_release was created on Tue Aug 07 08:44:09 2007.
[10:42] *** CDot has joined #twiki_release.
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[13:01] *** Initial topic: http://develop.twiki.org/~twiki4/cgi-bin/view/Bugs/ReleaseBlockers
[13:01] *** #twiki_release: PeterThoeny_ lek SteffenPoulsen CarloSchulz ArthurClemens ktwilight_ 
        CDot PeterThoeny SvenDowideit WikiRingBot gmc 
[13:01] gmc: hi CarloSchulz, SteffenPoulsen and lek!
[13:01] *** Nickname already in use.  Please choose another (/nick {name}).
[13:02] gmc: oh and peter&arthur of course 
[13:02] SteffenPoulsen: hep :-)
[13:02] *** Lavr_ has joined #twiki_release.
[13:02] Lavr_: Good evening/day
[13:03] gmc: hello kenneth
[13:03] PeterThoeny: hi arthur, carlo, crawford, koen, kwan, kenneth, lek, steffen, sven (here?)
[13:03] PeterThoeny: welcome lek, first time here
[13:04] PeterThoeny: lek, could you give a stort intro please?
[13:04] lek: Sorry, I need to change the nick again, its LarsEik
[13:04] *** lek is now known as LarsEik.
[13:04] SteffenPoulsen: hi Lars :-)
[13:05] PeterThoeny: ah, hi lars
[13:05] PeterThoeny: i got kicked out of irc again
[13:05] PeterThoeny: at work i need to reset our router, then i can work on irc for a few hours
[13:06] PeterThoeny: good tunrout today
[13:06] PeterThoeny: shall we get started?
[13:06] Lavr_: I had that problem with a Dlink routers. I tried 3 different. Then finally ended up 
        with a Linksys. That works.
[13:06] PeterThoeny: who is taking minutes, who is facilitating?
[13:06] Lavr_: I am on the minutes as always
[13:06] gmc: avoid thompson/speedtouch like the plague too :)
[13:06] PeterThoeny: minutes at http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/FreetownReleaseMeeting2007x11x19
[13:07] PeterThoeny: harald sent an e-mail that he can't join today
[13:07] gmc: i'm actually not here, but doing 10000 other things...
[13:07] ArthurClemens: I guess we move to the release blockers?
[13:08] PeterThoeny: i'll do the facilitation
[13:08] PeterThoeny: who is on minutes?
[13:08] PeterThoeny: ah, kenneth
[13:08] SteffenPoulsen: [22:08:11] <Lavr_> I am on the minutes as always
[13:08] PeterThoeny: sorry :-)
[13:08] PeterThoeny: and thanks :-)
[13:08] SteffenPoulsen: :-)
[13:08] gmc: can i put something else on the agenda? i was wondering about trac on d.t.o
[13:08] PeterThoeny: agenda:
 1. review urgent bugs
 2. coordinate 4.2
[13:09] PeterThoeny: anything else we should discuss?
[13:09] SteffenPoulsen: i would like to hear 4 lines about trac also
[13:09] Lavr_: I have problems with Bugs web right now. 
[13:09] ArthurClemens: still?
[13:09] Lavr_: On this topic
[13:09] Lavr_: http://develop.twiki.org/~twiki4/cgi-bin/view/Bugs/Item4771
[13:09] PeterThoeny: ok, add this:
 3. bug tracker
[13:09] Lavr_: Do you guys see any top/left/bottom
[13:10] Lavr_: ?
[13:10] gmc: top/left/bottom?
[13:10] SteffenPoulsen: Lavr_: all there (ff)
[13:10] SteffenPoulsen: ctrl-f5 to refresh
[13:10] CarloSchulz: everythings fine
[13:10] Lavr_: In my IE I see nothing else than topic content on that topic
[13:10] gmc: ok but this isactually item 3 on the agenda :)
[13:10] PeterThoeny: all there (ff 2.0.0.9)
[13:10] gmc: all there for me too
[13:10] PeterThoeny: ---++  1. Review Urgent Bugs
[13:11] PeterThoeny: http://develop.twiki.org/~twiki4/cgi-bin/view/Bugs/ReleaseBlockers
[13:11] SteffenPoulsen: ie: no top/left/bottom here
[13:11] PeterThoeny: kenneth, do you want to pick a few?
[13:11] gmc: are these all, or are there new bugs too that need triage?
[13:11] Lavr_: One moment. I need this to work to see bugs
[13:12] gmc: Lavr_: use ff?
[13:12] Lavr_: Same problem when closing browser and opening again
[13:12] SteffenPoulsen: Lavr_: problem is an unclosed <script> in the topic text
[13:12] Lavr_: OK. it is ONLY in that one topic. I can manage then
[13:13] PeterThoeny: shift-reload?
[13:13] Lavr_: Actually the current situation on release blockers is best in a long time.
[13:13] Lavr_: Most are work in progress. I have 3-4 doc items waiting for me which I will work 
        in this week.
[13:14] ArthurClemens: I think EditTablePlugin needs quite some work
[13:14] Lavr_: But a few are worth talking about
[13:14] Lavr_: http://develop.twiki.org/~twiki4/cgi-bin/view/Bugs/Item4973
[13:14] Lavr_: default skin appears to have javascript in it 
[13:14] Lavr_: A principle discussion about the default skin
[13:15] ArthurClemens: I don't have anything principle against it. I just notice some people are 
        becoming more hardlined
[13:15] gmc: i don't mind as long as there's a fall-back for non-js-enabled
[13:16] ArthurClemens: for help links in edit topic we need to set a target
[13:16] CDot: there are a surprising number of people out there who run with JS disabled
[13:16] PeterThoeny: graceful fallback is key
[13:16] gmc: CDot: not surprising to the suspicious of mind (paranoid) such as myself
[13:16] ArthurClemens: I don't think there is anything fundamental in js
[13:17] CDot: and it is easier to derive a new skin if you don't have to fight with JS
[13:17] ArthurClemens: in default skin
[13:17] ArthurClemens: but I will have a look to further minimize js
[13:18] ArthurClemens: who wants to keep js in default skin?
[13:18] CDot: no
[13:18] ArthurClemens: like, no I don't?
[13:18] CDot: :-) yes
[13:19] Lavr_: No oppinion
[13:19] CDot: I do not want JS in default skin
[13:19] ArthurClemens: there is one case
[13:19] CDot: but I am not as hard line as Sven
[13:19] ArthurClemens: I want to know if js is enabled, so I want to set a style
[13:19] PeterThoeny: i am fine as long as there is graceful fallback
[13:19] CarloSchulz: default = pattern?
[13:20] CDot: CarloSchulz: no
[13:20] CDot: default is below pattern
[13:20] CarloSchulz: thx
[13:20] SteffenPoulsen: I also think it is good style <tm> to have graceful fallbacks, but I have 
        no particular reason to have it as a release blocker
[13:20] CDot: try any url ?slin=none
[13:20] ArthurClemens: this line: <script type="text/javascript" src="%PUBURLPATH%/%SYSTEMWEB%/TWikiJavascripts/twikiStyles.js"></script>
[13:20] CarloSchulz: good naming then...
[13:20] CDot: ^slin^skin
[13:20] PeterThoeny: carlo, default = if there is no skin or skin=asfasdfasfa
[13:20] CDot: it's not named as a skin, deliberately. We call them "the default templates"
[13:21] CarloSchulz: ah, I see
[13:21] ArthurClemens: it writes:
[13:21] ArthurClemens: / javascriptaffectedstyle
[13:21] ArthurClemens: var styleText = '<style type="text/css" media="all">.twikiMakeVisible
        {display:inline;}.twikiMakeVisibleInline{display:inline;}
        .twikiMakeVisibleBlock{display:block;}.twikiMakeHidden{display:none;}<\/style>';
[13:21] ArthurClemens: document.write(styleText);
[13:21] Lavr_: My greatest concern is that a new refactoring means new bugs in classic and pattern 
        skins.
[13:21] ArthurClemens: so either I need to move this to pattern, or we leave it for other skins
[13:21] CDot: at some point we need to sit down and agree a strategy for JS libs
[13:22] CDot: because there are many directions for JS
[13:22] ArthurClemens: (if js enabled, sets a style def, used with TwistyPlugin)
[13:22] CDot: e.g. jQuery and friends
[13:22] CDot: we need to decide if we back one JS lib, or if we remain uncommitted
[13:22] ArthurClemens: unfortunately I have spent refactoring twiki javascripts for noone
[13:23] CDot: ArthurClemens: ?
[13:23] ArthurClemens: for pattern only
[13:23] CDot: sure; but this decision is not for 4.2 IMHO
[13:23] ArthurClemens: at that time I was still imagining one twiki js for all skins
[13:23] CDot: yep
[13:23] CDot: t's not going to happen, IMHO
[13:24] CDot: I think we need to minimise JS in the default templates because of this
[13:24] CDot: however given the fact that there are so few skin authors, it's rather academic
[13:24] ArthurClemens: twiki is getting more and more complex
[13:25] ArthurClemens: each skin has its own css, templates, js libraries
[13:25] PeterThoeny: as kenneth said, i think we should be careful with making changes at this stage
[13:25] CDot: this is the same problem faced by everyone
[13:25] CDot: e.g. TinyMCE just went through a major refactoring, for almost exactly the same 
        reason :-(
[13:25] ArthurClemens: but the movement is towards differentiating
[13:26] CDot: I think we need to reafctor, but not for 4.2
[13:26] gmc: ArthurClemens: of course does each skin have its own css etc... are you proposing to 
        have one mammoth css etc, 'one size fits all' ?
[13:26] CDot: for 4.2, just minimise JS in the base class
[13:26] Lavr_: A refactoring should be 5.0 and include freezing an API for the skins so people can 
        write skins that has a chance to work in the next TWiki releases
[13:26] PeterThoeny: i agree, after 4.2 we shoudl look how much we can consolidate the js and css
[13:27] ArthurClemens: you sound like we have so many js in default skin, whereas it is quite 
        minimal already
[13:27] CDot: I know; but we can make it even more minimal :-)
[13:27] ArthurClemens: No, it is the reality
[13:27] ArthurClemens: we won't consolidate
[13:27] ArthurClemens: default skin is the building block
[13:28] ArthurClemens: on top are pattern, mt skin and possible others
[13:28] CDot: right
[13:28] ArthurClemens: on top are twiki js, Yahoo lib and jQuery
[13:28] Lavr_: If I was to build a skin today I would base it on NOTHING because the way we have 
        changed everything in each major and minor release since Cairo, no skin has survived.
[13:29] Lavr_: Not even plugins with a few templates survives a TWiki upgrade
[13:29] ArthurClemens: good luck!
[13:29] CDot: I would rather keep the default templates JS-free, and focus on providing REST 
        support for all those AJAX-y JS packages that will layer on top
[13:29] Lavr_: There is a good reason why only Pattern, Classic and Nat skins still exist. All 
        others are given up
[13:30] PeterThoeny: time check: +30 min
[13:30] Lavr_: So the action on this is: defer to 5.0
[13:30] ArthurClemens: I do think we can go through the templates quickly
[13:30] ArthurClemens: kill the nobrainers
[13:30] PeterThoeny: we accnowledged the problem, deferred to 5.0 (or 4.3)
[13:30] Lavr_: Any BUGS on default skin because of this?
[13:31] CDot: ArthurClemens: I'm with you on that
[13:31] SteffenPoulsen: I am quite happy to leave this kind of decision with our hardworking skin 
        folks :-) - I agree with crawford it's academic as long as only 1-2 people are pulling the 
        skin effort
[13:31] CDot: Lavr_: no
[13:31] Lavr_: If we touch the skins again now we all know we will see between 5 and 20 new bugs
[13:31] ArthurClemens: oopslanguagechanged still has that awkward redirect script
[13:31] CDot: Lavr_: don;t overestimate the changes we are taking about
[13:32] CDot: they are very minimal
[13:32] PeterThoeny: be careful with changes at this stage
[13:32] ArthurClemens: any bugs to pattern will be noticed immediately by you!
[13:33] CDot: ArthurClemens: I never understood that redirect. What is it meant to do?
[13:33] PeterThoeny: ok, kenneth, any other bu item youd like to highlight?
[13:33] ArthurClemens: I never wrote it, I don't either
[13:33] Lavr_: what was the conclusion on this one?
[13:33] Lavr_: I am not prepared to spend another 100 hours testing pattern skin.
[13:34] CDot: Arthur and I will examine removing JS from the default templates, with the goal of 
        minimal risk
[13:34] PeterThoeny: no or very minimal changes on default templates, consolidate css and js 
        where possible after 4.2
[13:34] CDot: major - or even middling - refactring will be delayed to 5.0
[13:35] CDot: next?
[13:35] Lavr_: One moment. I just my browser window
[13:35] Lavr_: http://develop.twiki.org/~twiki4/cgi-bin/view/Bugs/Item4946
[13:36] Lavr_: Item4946: urlDecode() not working for characters represented by Unicode code points 
[13:36] Lavr_: "Sorry, I'm just not interested in I18N."
[13:36] CDot: yup, 'fraid so
[13:36] Lavr_: So TWiki is only for English speaking?
[13:36] CDot: I was asked for feedback; that was my feedback.
[13:37] PeterThoeny: twiki is advertised to work in 14 languages
[13:37] CDot: with all the other commitments I am juggling, I am not prepared to take on I18N as 
        well
[13:38] PeterThoeny: i consider this a showstopper if the wysiwyg editor does not grok non-english 
        chars
[13:38] PeterThoeny: can we engage richard?
[13:39] SteffenPoulsen: it is quote ok with non-english (no problems for danish language, for 
        instance) - it looks like the problem is with utf-8 .. which we have all kinds of trouble 
        with anyway
[13:39] ktwilight_: hideyo may be interested to work on it too, maybe he can be approached for an 
        additional hand
[13:40] CDot: it is worth asking
[13:40] PeterThoeny: as hideo satated, &#DDDDD; is not practical
[13:40] ArthurClemens: is it tiny related or is it about twiki unicode support in general?
[13:40] PeterThoeny: s/satated/stated/
[13:40] CDot: no idea
[13:40] CDot: it may be as simple as the language in the page header
[13:40] SteffenPoulsen: ArthurClemens: both, we do not have full unicode support as-is, as Richard 
        states
[13:41] CDot: no way to tell, unless a regular non-english user debugs
[13:41] CDot: and none has stepped up to help, yet
[13:41] SteffenPoulsen: and a utf-8 user, even ..
[13:41] CDot: SteffenPoulsen: right
[13:41] ktwilight_: or file suffice detail bug reports
[13:41] PeterThoeny: time check: +40 min
[13:41] Lavr_: Is this issue and general I18N issue or "only" UTF8 related?
[13:42] CDot: the lack of support from users is the main reason I cannot get interested in I18N
[13:42] *** OliverKrueger has joined #twiki_release.
[13:42] SteffenPoulsen: it's in the "cross-over" part of utf-8 .. meaning Greek, Cyrillic, Armenian, 
        Hebrew, Arabic, Syriac and Thaana alphabets (according to wikipedia)
[13:42] PeterThoeny: hi oli!
[13:42] OliverKrueger: HelloWorld
[13:42] ktwilight_: am still unsure on the extent of i18n issue
[13:43] PeterThoeny: we need an expert who is actively involved
[13:43] CDot: right
[13:43] PeterThoeny: action item for myself: talk with richard
[13:43] ktwilight_: how many active non-english speaking twiki users are there?
[13:43] ktwilight_: peter, please talk to hideyo as well
[13:43] CDot: judging from IRC, quite a few
[13:43] * OliverKrueger tries to speak english
[13:44] PeterThoeny: yes there are many
[13:44] gmc: i speak english from time to time :)
[13:44] Lavr_: I believe Steffen and I are not exactly English either ;-)
[13:44] SteffenPoulsen: ktwilight_: non-english - a lot, utf-8-users a lot less
[13:44] ktwilight_: hm, so it's more of a utf-8 issue in general? :/
[13:44] OliverKrueger: iso-8859-15 here
[13:44] Lavr_: The UTF8 is a different game than extended latin character sets
[13:44] PeterThoeny: twiki.org's registered users have over 100 country codes in the e-mail 
        addresses
[13:44] ktwilight_: i use utf-8 here. my chinese characters don't show if i don't set that.
[13:44] CDot: anyway, Harald's bug was about Euro symbols, which is in the extended charset
[13:45] PeterThoeny: ok, we identified the issue
[13:45] PeterThoeny: let's move on
[13:45] Lavr_: NEXT. Item4771: TWikiUserMapping fails with Corporate SSO 
[13:45] * ktwilight_ got euro symbols to display too
[13:45] SteffenPoulsen: ktwilight_: then you will probably see the issue :-)
[13:45] Lavr_: http://develop.twiki.org/~twiki4/cgi-bin/view/Bugs/Item4771
[13:45] PeterThoeny: anything else on bugs?
[13:45] ktwilight_: though i ain't using tinymce, so it might not be relevant.
[13:45] ktwilight_: SteffenPoulsen, but i dont?
[13:45] Lavr_: I will test what I can but it is really Harald that needs to test his more special 
        case.
[13:45] ktwilight_: i edit, save and view well.
[13:45] PeterThoeny: sso is a good one
[13:45] CDot: ktwilight_: the issue is with TMCE
[13:45] PeterThoeny: i consider this a showstopper
[13:45] ktwilight_: k
[13:46] * ktwilight_ backs off
[13:46] PeterThoeny: since many corp users are now using or looking into sso
[13:46] SvenDowideit: haralds issue is less to do with sso
[13:46] SvenDowideit: and more to do with a very old style apache auth
[13:47] SvenDowideit: (not to suggest its invalid)
[13:47] Lavr_: So Sven. The last step is testing? No known open todos?
[13:47] SvenDowideit: real sso involves writing a pretty simple (in 4.2) user mapper / login
[13:47] SvenDowideit: y
[13:47] Lavr_: OK. I will do a test with our LDAP setup within the next few days then
[13:47] SvenDowideit: thanks
[13:48] SvenDowideit: oh, and good morning everyone :)
[13:48] CDot: moin
[13:48] ArthurClemens: hello
[13:48] CDot: SvenDowideit: I will be writing that other user mapper we talked about this week as 
        well
[13:48] Lavr_: OK. TWO more
[13:48] SvenDowideit: cool :)
[13:48] Lavr_: http://develop.twiki.org/~twiki4/cgi-bin/view/Bugs/Item4953
[13:48] SvenDowideit: i'm writing 3 atm
[13:49] PeterThoeny: actually, i think the simple $ENV{REMOTE_USER} should work (as it has been in 
        the past) because other auth options can be used "as is" without the need to write code
[13:49] Lavr_: Item4953: Installing new version (8 nov 2007) gives errors   (BehaviourContrib)
[13:49] * CDot is inclined to "no action" that one
[13:49] Lavr_: I think this mainly needs someone to verify that there is a bug. - CDot yes I think 
        so too
[13:49] * SvenDowideit is inclined to add a [send email to opener] button to bugs contrib
[13:50] CDot: good idea
[13:50] PeterThoeny: i consider this a showstpper if $ENV{REMOTE_USER} and AllowLoginName = 1 does 
        not work
[13:50] SvenDowideit: (that closes the bug as no feedback)
[13:50] SvenDowideit: PeterThoeny_, read the bug
[13:50] SvenDowideit: then you'll have nothing more to say
[13:50] ArthurClemens: why does behaviour need extender?
[13:50] CDot: everything needs extender.pl. It's the generic install script
[13:51] ArthurClemens: then I must have it
[13:51] CDot: you probably do, and you never even knew ;-)
[13:51] PeterThoeny: sven: please read kenneth's last comment
[13:51] PeterThoeny: on bug item
[13:52] CDot: I would like to be more confident about testing of the extension installation from 
        configure
[13:52] CDot: as many people use it
[13:52] SvenDowideit: Will test at Motorola. Harald though is the most important tester.??
[13:52] CDot: I use it myself, but I probably know what to avoid....
[13:52] Lavr_: I just said that 4953 is unconfirmed.
[13:53] Lavr_: So if someone has similar setup then try to confirm or unconfirm. 
[13:53] SvenDowideit: next bug :)
[13:53] Lavr_: Also remember that he tested beta3. Things have changed since
[13:53] Lavr_: LAST
[13:53] Lavr_: http://develop.twiki.org/~twiki4/cgi-bin/view/Bugs/Item3805
[13:53] CDot: I tested b3 as well
[13:53] Lavr_: Item3805: footerrows setting is ignored when adding rows 
[13:54] Lavr_: That is the last of the EditTablePlugin bugs that I changed from Normal to Urgent.
[13:54] Lavr_: Arthur killed all the other bugs.
[13:54] PeterThoeny: thank you arthur!
[13:54] Lavr_: Arthur you said earlier that EditTable needed work
[13:54] ArthurClemens: it needs a new breath, and fingers crossing...
[13:55] SvenDowideit: teamwork
[13:55] Lavr_: Did you have other todos open or just this?
[13:55] SvenDowideit: i'll hold my breath
[13:55] SvenDowideit: Lavr_, can cross his finger :)
[13:55] ArthurClemens: there are not enough unit tests for the plugin
[13:55] ArthurClemens: so I may break things
[13:55] Lavr_: Am crossing fingers real hard
[13:55] SvenDowideit: snap!
[13:56] ArthurClemens: I do have time this week
[13:56] ArthurClemens: so shall I?
[13:56] Lavr_: I can try and test a little more on EditTable. The Item3805 is in itself a pretty 
        good test case by the way
[13:57] gmc: ArthurClemens: no-one seems to be stopping you :)
[13:57] Lavr_: Arthur - I am not the one to hold you back
[13:57] ArthurClemens: I think there are more bugs on the plugin without a Bugs entry
[13:57] Lavr_: Fixing this last one is what will make "add a row" work when you have a footer row 
        with calculations
[13:57] PeterThoeny: ok, problem identified
[13:57] PeterThoeny: let's move on
[13:57] PeterThoeny: anything else on bugs front?
[13:58] Lavr_: That was the last I wanted to mention. 
[13:58] CDot: AFAIK EditRowPlugin is fully compatible with EditTablePlugin now, so there is always 
        a fallback.
[13:58] CDot: Yes, i want feedback on..... /me checks
[13:58] CDot: 4983
[13:58] PeterThoeny: http://develop.twiki.org/~twiki4/cgi-bin/view/Bugs/Item4983
[13:58] ArthurClemens: Well, perhaps we need to install with EditRowPlugin
[13:58] CDot: I merged the style and format menus, as suggested by Sven
[13:59] CDot: I *think* it's more useable, but need more feedback
[13:59] Lavr_: Did not see that (I did not work on TWiki this weekend)
[13:59] Lavr_: Will try
[14:00] PeterThoeny: thank you crawford for making e.r.p compatible! let's see after 4.2 when/how 
        we can switch the code base
[14:00] PeterThoeny: time check: +60 min
[14:00] ArthurClemens: only the icons of ERP need to be updated :-)
[14:01] Lavr_: I need not give e.r.p much testing TBH. Because I then would have had to turn off ETP.
[14:01] CDot: ArthurClemens: cheeky bugger. They are lovely icons! ;-)
[14:01] gmc: e.r.p.?
[14:01] CDot: editrowplugin
[14:01] Lavr_: EditRowPlugin vs EditTablePlugin
[14:02] Lavr_: I had one more that I did not find. One moment. Question for C
[14:02] PeterThoeny: ok, let's move on
[14:02] PeterThoeny: ---++  2. Coordinate TWiki Release 4.2
[14:02] PeterThoeny: last release was beta3 on 2007-11-01
[14:02] Lavr_: The bug item where CC introduces the edit raw thing
[14:02] PeterThoeny: are we ready for rc1?
[14:03] ArthurClemens: did we send out a string freeze yet?
[14:03] CDot: not without the final doc fixes, no
[14:03] PeterThoeny: ah, back to bug?
[14:03] Lavr_: Item4945,
[14:03] ArthurClemens: I haven't started translating in any case
[14:03] Lavr_: http://develop.twiki.org/~twiki4/cgi-bin/view/Bugs/Item4945
[14:03] Lavr_: "Kenneth, you may need to clear your cache."  I will try that.   OK DONE
[14:04] CDot: (Aside: ping PeterThoeny_ w.r.t my IRC cloak (see Twiki-Dev mail))
[14:04] ArthurClemens: works nice. but the buttons need to be aligned, like a toggle
[14:05] Lavr_: I think I can have my doc work done by next weekend.
[14:05] ArthurClemens: in text or image
[14:05] Lavr_: So I could have my items closed for RC1 next this comming weekend.
[14:05] ArthurClemens: because we don't communicate 'WYSIWYG' anymore
[14:06] ArthurClemens: great feature
[14:06] CDot: ArthurClemens: hey, I only do "functional", not "pretty" ;-)
[14:06] ArthurClemens: I sort of expected a nice icon for that :-)
[14:06] CarloSchulz: btw: in TinyMCE is should be called normal not none ( in the drop down)
[14:07] CDot: CarloSchulz: ok
[14:07] PeterThoeny: crawford: i think travisbarker was handling the irc cloak
[14:07] ArthurClemens: or 'plain' ?
[14:07] CDot: PeterThoeny_: Travis is AWOL; I oped he had handed you the info
[14:07] CDot: hoped
[14:07] CarloSchulz: CDot: that was easy :-)
[14:07] *** OliverKrueger has signed off IRC (" HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- IRC has 
        never been so good").
[14:08] ArthurClemens: Do we still need a signature to copy/paste with WYSIWYG?
[14:08] Lavr_: Bugs is hanging for me again now. This time on canceling from Editing.
[14:09] PeterThoeny: ok, lets talk about schedule
[14:10] PeterThoeny: rc1 thois coming weekend?
[14:10] CDot: Lavr_: it's 99% idle
[14:10] Lavr_: it is the same routing shit again
[14:10] PeterThoeny: sven?
[14:11] SvenDowideit: i know nothin
[14:11] SvenDowideit: I suggest that lavr needs to talk to them directly
[14:12] PeterThoeny: who is the point contact person in our community for fastservers.net support?
[14:13] SvenDowideit: you
[14:13] PeterThoeny: that is news to be :-)
[14:13] PeterThoeny: me
[14:13] SvenDowideit: as you are local, and they respond better to your phone calls
[14:13] SvenDowideit: ala last time the server was flakey
[14:13] PeterThoeny: it was my impression that crawford and sven are the point persons for 
        develop.twiki.net
[14:13] SvenDowideit: no
[14:13] SvenDowideit: we do the admin work
[14:14] PeterThoeny: ok, we have coordination issue
[14:14] SvenDowideit: their online support is pretty non-responsive, until you phoned them up
[14:15] Lavr_: Who was the person that arranged the whole thing? I think he must be a good entry 
        point.
[14:15] PeterThoeny: i can call them up but i'd perfer if one of you is the coodinator for the 
        develop.twiki.net server
[14:15] SvenDowideit: she left that company :/
[14:15] Lavr_: Buh.
[14:15] SvenDowideit: he
[14:15] SvenDowideit: I'm willing to do the things that can be done by ssh-ing to the server
[14:16] SvenDowideit: bejond that, i'm simply in the wrong tz
[14:16] SvenDowideit: unless we move the servers to sg / jp / au :}
[14:16] PeterThoeny: as i said, i can call if needed, but someone needs to coordinate the server 
        admin
[14:17] Lavr_: I have been ssh-ing to that server and viewed the logs while I had the problem. 
        Mainly the access_log and I could see all my GETs come right through but each time I did 
        a POST (which is a much longer stream of data) nothing ever reached the Apache server.
[14:17] PeterThoeny: for coordination tz is not that important
[14:17] PeterThoeny: i suggest crawford or sven for that role
[14:17] CDot: the server admin is not much of a problem; we have it ticking over nicely
[14:17] SvenDowideit: 'coordinate' means nothing to me - want to be more clear?
[14:17] CDot: without any specific role assignment
[14:17] SvenDowideit: cos the answer is probably, we're doing that already?
[14:17] CDot: what we have here is a specific issue affecting Lavr and Steffen
[14:17] gmc: i thought the problem was: who is the person contacting fastserver ..
[14:17] Lavr_: And Harald has seen it too
[14:17] gmc: not: who is doing the admin
[14:18] PeterThoeny: taking the responsibility for the server, aksing people for help as needed 
        (such as me calling their support)
[14:18] SvenDowideit: gmc, y, thats what i thought too
[14:18] SvenDowideit: that is being done
[14:18] SvenDowideit: Lavr_, asked you last week
[14:18] Lavr_: yes. Noone has taken the action and even TOLD fastservers about this. I have begged 
        for a contact so I could contact them
[14:18] SvenDowideit: LarsEik, I have told them
[14:18] SvenDowideit: the first time (or even second) that you experienced it
[14:18] SvenDowideit: bah!
[14:18] gmc: and i agree that it would make a lot of sense if lavr was brought into contact with 
        fastserver instead of having some middle man relaying between lavr and fastservers
[14:19] SvenDowideit: but there wasn't enough info for them to action it
[14:19] *** OliverKrueger has joined #twiki_release.
[14:19] Lavr_: There is plenty of information to debug from in the bug report.
[14:19] PeterThoeny: no, someone in the community should be responsible for the server, admin and 
        interface to isp
[14:19] SvenDowideit: it will probably rely on Lavr_ doing specific loggins asked for my them
[14:19] SvenDowideit: Lavr_, to you y
[14:19] Lavr_: The problem is that I see it maybe every 2nd or third day and it lasts for an hour 
        or so. So you cannot just call and try something.
[14:20] gmc: PeterThoeny_: sven/cdot are responsible for admin as i understand, you are for 
        interface with isp..
[14:20] SvenDowideit: Lavr_, imagine how hard that is to communicate when you've not even had the 
        issue :)
[14:20] SvenDowideit: gmc, yup
[14:20] SvenDowideit: quite clear imo
[14:20] PeterThoeny: i initiated the server, but i was never the point contact for the isp
[14:20] SvenDowideit: you have _always_ been the contact
[14:20] PeterThoeny: i was helping out in the past as needed
[14:20] gmc: PeterThoeny_: so let us rephrase, any objection against being the contact?
[14:20] SvenDowideit: I have _never_ been that person
[14:21] PeterThoeny: as i said coordination issue :-)
[14:21] ktwilight_: is it possible that you are the contact person from now onwards PeterThoeny_?
[14:21] ktwilight_: it's best to act rather than pointing fingers IMHO :)
[14:21] Lavr_: This leads nowhere.
[14:21] PeterThoeny: ktwilight_: i'd like to do that but i am not sure i can commit to this 
        additional role
[14:21] PeterThoeny: timewise
[14:21] Lavr_: Sven you already told them in writing?
[14:21] SvenDowideit: I don't recal
[14:21] ktwilight_: we need someone in the US to do, that's for sure
[14:22] SteffenPoulsen: I would like to see the tcpdump from both sides when the issue is there - 
        are we sure this is even an isp problem?
[14:22] SvenDowideit: and I've never had much success with their web UI
[14:22] SteffenPoulsen: (i.e. packets lost?)
[14:22] SvenDowideit: peter always managed to get me logged in to it (somehow)
[14:22] PeterThoeny: sven: as i mentioned before i can help out on this one issue
[14:22] PeterThoeny: but i cannot commit to be the point contact for develop.twiki.net
[14:23] PeterThoeny: problem identified, let sven and me take that offline
[14:23] ktwilight_: .org i hope.
[14:23] PeterThoeny: next
[14:23] gmc: aren't we leaving fastservers in a while anyway, when the new gear is installed?
[14:23] PeterThoeny: schedule
[14:23] SvenDowideit: gmc, na
[14:23] ktwilight_: in 3 weeks gmc :)
[14:23] SvenDowideit: different server set
[14:23] gmc: ok, so the old servers will still be maintained?
[14:23] PeterThoeny: when are we going to build rc1?
[14:24] PeterThoeny: when are we going to declace string freeze?
[14:24] SvenDowideit: i hope y - backup is important
[14:24] ktwilight_: OliverKrueger was also offering to have servers here in europe, we can tap on 
        that too.
[14:24] SvenDowideit: I'd like to do rc1 somewhere sat-mon
[14:24] SvenDowideit: most likely monday my time
[14:24] * ktwilight_ needs 4.2 by tomorrow mornin'
[14:24] ktwilight_: :)
[14:24] Lavr_: Can I be copied on any emailing to Fastservers please? And can I get involved in 
        the communication?
[14:24] SvenDowideit: ktwilight_, svn is great, svn is good :)
[14:24] SvenDowideit: Lavr_, they don't use email
[14:24] ktwilight_: :)
[14:24] SvenDowideit: _ever_
[14:24] PeterThoeny: ok, let;s shoot for mon (e.g. in one week)
[14:25] SvenDowideit: its tuesday here :)
[14:25] Lavr_: I have been fighting with this issue since June now and I do not want to get 
        ignorred more now
[14:25] ktwilight_: before christmas please. it'd be a nice present.
[14:25] SvenDowideit: ie, sunday your time
[14:25] PeterThoeny: string freeze?
[14:25] SvenDowideit: Lavr_, y, i vote for you getting their fone number etc
[14:25] SvenDowideit: its in the Core web anyway
[14:26] SvenDowideit: what are the rules / expectations for string freeze?
[14:26] PeterThoeny: string freeze at time of rc1?
[14:26] SvenDowideit: is that the deal we made with antonio?
[14:27] PeterThoeny: in prev meeting we agreed to declare string freeze at time of rc1
[14:27] SvenDowideit: ok, so string freeze on monday
[14:27] PeterThoeny: antonio needs to inform translaters
[14:28] SvenDowideit: all done, all sold :)
[14:28] PeterThoeny: who is alerting antonio?
[14:28] SvenDowideit: either me or Lavr_ , depending on who drinks less on the day :)
[14:28] CDot: next monday? so we can still fix some of the strings?
[14:28] Lavr_: Does anyone plan string changes now?
[14:28] SvenDowideit: more important is that everyone here has til sunday night to fix and review
[14:29] * CDot has been jumping through hoops to avoid changing any strings
[14:29] SvenDowideit: y, me too
[14:29] PeterThoeny: we said small string changes are ok
[14:29] SvenDowideit: but rc1 is the final curtain call
[14:29] PeterThoeny: e.g. do not make too much work for translators
[14:29] Lavr_: We were on a "minimize string changes" condition so you have been good biys
[14:29] Lavr_: boys
[14:30] gmc: here i was thinking we were already in string freeze
[14:30] Lavr_: Another good boy
[14:30] PeterThoeny: ok, target date for ga?
[14:30] gmc: wellll....
[14:30] SteffenPoulsen: antonio already called for translations once (in misunderstanding), some 
        uncertainty has come from that ..
[14:31] PeterThoeny: best  case: two weeks after rc1
[14:31] PeterThoeny: unless there is an rc2
[14:31] gmc: if we do it on the 24th, it'd be a nice xmas present :)
[14:31] PeterThoeny: :-)
[14:32] gmc: (/me remembers the patch a gaming company once released on xmas day as a present --> 
        all those poor admins had to work overtime patching all those gameservers)
[14:32] SteffenPoulsen: christmas has been really slow twiki-wise previous years, no need to 
        expect anything else this year :-)
[14:32] PeterThoeny: for marketing reasons it is better to release not too close to xmas, or 
        beginning of january
[14:32] gmc: true, but being realistic that'd mean releasing end of january/early feb
[14:33] gmc: 18th of feb would be nice too
[14:33] gmc: its my birthday :)
[14:33] PeterThoeny: so, either mid dec or begin of jan
[14:33] CDot: let's get real, and release when we are ready
[14:33] CDot: let kenneth decide (he's the releae manager)
[14:33] SvenDowideit: i say release the hounds
[14:34] PeterThoeny: crawford: what i am trying to say is, in case we are ready between xmas and 
        new year we should wait until begin of january
[14:34] SteffenPoulsen: it usually happens just when the right energy is there, kind of hard to 
        tell in advance
[14:34] Lavr_: No need to discuss if we release at xmas. We are all on xmas panic and we always 
        have low activity round there so it will solve itself. It will be as Peter suggests 
        without any decisions
[14:34] CDot: so, let's just release when the strings are done
[14:34] CDot: no artificial dates
[14:34] PeterThoeny: anything else to discuss?
[14:34] SvenDowideit: aren't they done now?
[14:34] PeterThoeny: ---++ 3. bug tracker
[14:34] CDot: SvenDowideit: apparently not.
[14:34] SvenDowideit: okely :)
[14:35] Lavr_: I found the info on Core web. I did not know it was there.
[14:35] gmc: Core web?
[14:35] SteffenPoulsen: SvenDowideit: ./tools/xgettext gives current status
[14:35] Lavr_: (core web is invisible to anyone else than core team and is 10-15 topics that are 
        otherwise 100 years old. No need to envy that access ;-)
[14:35] Lavr_: )
[14:36] PeterThoeny: steffen, you suggested a topic at the beginning?
[14:36] PeterThoeny: "SteffenPoulsen: i would like to hear 4 lines about trac also"
[14:36] SvenDowideit: Lavr_, read the webhome topic, it points to the 2 servers
[14:37] SteffenPoulsen: gmc asked for a trac reading, I seconded, yes
[14:37] Lavr_: Sven as I said I found it now that I know it is there.
[14:37] PeterThoeny: trac reading?
[14:37] gmc: yes, i was wondering about trac, a trac url popped up in the svn commit messages..
[14:37] SvenDowideit: did you click on it?
[14:37] gmc: so i was wondering what that was all about..
[14:37] SteffenPoulsen: if there's a codev topic on it's purpose / how we should handle the 
        confusion it will cause and so on already, apologies in advance
[14:37] gmc: no, i copy-pasted it into my address bar..
[14:38] SvenDowideit: no, i just installed it
[14:38] SvenDowideit: i'm not yet sure its something we want to make public
[14:38] gmc: so what is the intention, are we moving project management to trac, is it just a 
        test, what features do we need, etc...?
[14:38] SvenDowideit: as the last svn viewer we installed brought the server down
[14:38] SvenDowideit: no
[14:38] SvenDowideit: _just_ svn viewing
[14:39] gmc: ah ok..
[14:39] SvenDowideit: I've been working on trac & twiki integration for a client 
[14:39] CDot: it's a neat way to peek into svn. I like it.
[14:39] SvenDowideit: integrating the best of trac into the best of twiki
[14:39] SvenDowideit: and the tracking and wiki is definatly not the best of trac
[14:39] SteffenPoulsen: if there's a way of making the other trac features less obvious we could 
        avoid sending a "twiki needs trac for bug tracking"-message
[14:40] SvenDowideit: yes
[14:40] PeterThoeny: good point
[14:40] SvenDowideit: I'm working on it
[14:40] SvenDowideit: I've been working on trac & twiki integration for a clien
[14:40] SvenDowideit: t
[14:40] PeterThoeny: ok, anything else?
[14:40] Lavr_: Yes Twiki needs to show that we eat our own medicin.
[14:40] gmc: so we need a nice svn viewer that integrates with twiki..
[14:41] PeterThoeny: we eat our own dog food, yes
[14:41] gmc: :)
[14:41] Lavr_: Oh yes. The other was the Denglish version
[14:41] SteffenPoulsen: it's already in the commit mails and very "public" in that sense, better 
        discuss this kind of changes up front imho
[14:41] SvenDowideit: i gotta go, bbiab
[14:41] PeterThoeny: ok, let's close the meeting
[14:41] PeterThoeny: and continue in #twiki
[14:41] PeterThoeny: thanks all!