[13:52] *** Initial topic: 
        http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/FreetownReleaseMeeting2007x03x26
[13:52] *** #twiki_release: PeterThoeny MichaelDaum Lavr SvenDowideit @WikiRingBot 
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[13:57] *** SteffenPoulsen has joined #twiki_release.
[13:57] SteffenPoulsen: 'evening all :-)
[13:57] PeterThoeny: hi steffen, sven, micha, kenneth!
[13:58] MichaelDaum: hi all
[14:00] Lavr: Hi all
[14:00] PeterThoeny: for next time, shall we meet one hour earlier?
[14:01] MichaelDaum: please yes
[14:01] Lavr: Yes that would be better
[14:01] SteffenPoulsen: that would be good, Peter
[14:01] PeterThoeny: sven, how long will you be in europe this time?
[14:01] * MichaelDaum 's sitting in front of his screen with rabit like eyes
[14:02] PeterThoeny: since so many in europe, we could even start two hours earlier
[14:02] SteffenPoulsen: MichaelDaum: 
        http://www.cosmicbuddha.com/blog/archives/images/visine.jpg ?
[14:02] MichaelDaum: haha
[14:02] PeterThoeny: :-)
[14:03] SteffenPoulsen: one hour is ok with me, two would also work
[14:03] PeterThoeny: sven?
[14:04] Lavr: 22:00 central european is also perfect for me.
[14:04] PeterThoeny: what is that in gmt?
[14:04] MichaelDaum: -2h
[14:05] PeterThoeny: 20:00 gmt
[14:05] PeterThoeny: ok, lets make it one hour earlier next time
[14:05] PeterThoeny: i was asking sven because in austratlia the summer savings 
        time is going the other way
[14:05] Lavr: Yes. CEST is UTC/GMT +2 - and CET is UTC/GMT +1 (S for summer).
[14:06] MichaelDaum: 7'o in the morning in sydney
[14:06] PeterThoeny: so if we make it too early it is not conveninet foir sven
[14:06] PeterThoeny: so 20:00 gmt seems a good fit
[14:06] PeterThoeny: anybody else joining?
[14:06] PeterThoeny: crawford is not participating today
[14:07] PeterThoeny: feedback from crawford: "I would like to point out the large 
        number of open bugs, and the number of proposed features for 4.2 that are 
        not marked as "done", and ask you to consider how to motivate contributors 
        to get some of this backlog cleared."
[14:07] PeterThoeny: shall we start?
[14:08] PeterThoeny: who facilitates, who takes notes?
[14:08] SteffenPoulsen: yes, better use time as effectively as possible
[14:08] Lavr: I am on the notes
[14:08] Lavr: But only until midnight.
[14:08] PeterThoeny: i can facilitate again
[14:08] SteffenPoulsen: excellent, thanks
[14:08] PeterThoeny: ok, let's keep this meeting short, until +60 min
[14:09] PeterThoeny: proposed agenda:
 1. Action Item Review
 2. Review Proposed Features
[14:09] PeterThoeny: anything to add to agenda?
[14:10] PeterThoeny: as part of the feature review we can address crafords point
[14:10] PeterThoeny: s/crafords/crawford's/
[14:10] SteffenPoulsen: sounds ok
[14:10] PeterThoeny: ---+  1. Action Item Review
[14:10] PeterThoeny: # Peter: Create a TWikiBetaTesting topic in Codev, with info 
        for beta testers.
[14:10] PeterThoeny: not done, pending
[14:11] PeterThoeny: needs to be done for next dot release
[14:11] PeterThoeny: and we need to recruit beta testers
[14:11] PeterThoeny: my idea is to create a twiki group for beta testers and a 
        how-to topic in codev
[14:11] MichaelDaum: all sites on wikiring.de are in MAIN
[14:11] PeterThoeny: whenever we are ready for beta test we can send out an e-mail 
        to those who signed up
[14:12] PeterThoeny: micha, what about wikiring?
[14:12] MichaelDaum: the sites hosted on wikiring.de are all running from a svn 
        checkout of the MAIN branch
[14:13] PeterThoeny: how does that connect to the beta test program?
[14:13] MichaelDaum: so that's pretty constant testing (not only of the core engine ;) )
[14:13] PeterThoeny: oic
[14:13] Lavr: We need some real live sites with real users to install betas (not 
        from SVN) to get better testing.
[14:13] PeterThoeny: yes, testing at corporate sites from rc releases is vital
[14:14] MichaelDaum: yes. while having them on wikiring.de is pretty live, it is no 
        systematic beta testing
[14:14] Lavr: I also run both a MAIN and a Patch release test server on 
        merlin.lavrsen.dk which is also very important but is not realistic beta 
        environment.
[14:14] PeterThoeny: we have had many bugs popping up shortly after a patch release 
        that could have been prevented by a solid beta test program
[14:15] PeterThoeny: action item is clear
[14:15] PeterThoeny: next:
[14:15] MichaelDaum: it seems as though the unit tests should cover much more areas
[14:15] Lavr: I guess one thing we can do is to automate the creation of the upgrade 
        zip/tgz in BuildContrib. Today it is a time consuming manual process.
[14:15] Lavr: And without an upgrade zip it makes beta testing even harder.
[14:16] PeterThoeny: yes, good point on more unit tests
[14:16] MichaelDaum: that's a long standing wish
[14:16] MichaelDaum: a nightly build was mentioned quite some time ago
[14:16] SteffenPoulsen: yes that would be good to have daily builds, Will did these 
        already at some point
[14:16] PeterThoeny: how much work involved to automate the package creation?
[14:17] Lavr: From a SVN checkout a build can be done with a simple cron. That is 
        not a problem.
[14:18] MichaelDaum: ... and be put to a downloadable place
[14:18] SvenDowideit: oo, a meeting
[14:18] SvenDowideit: please, remember that it loads the hell out of the svn server
[14:18] SvenDowideit: we had to remove the nightly builds from develop, because it 
        ran out of disk and cpu
[14:19] SteffenPoulsen: I would like to see it happen too, we could start of by 
        setting a svk mirror up somewhere that can handle the load
[14:19] MichaelDaum: yes, building twiki com's too much with the svn server
[14:19] SvenDowideit: this can be aleviated using svk though
[14:19] PeterThoeny: package could be called TWiki-4.1.3-beta13225.zip
[14:19] SvenDowideit: SteffenPoulsen, you and i need to find a common time to talk 
        about the debian vm
[14:19] SvenDowideit: i'm not really here, you see :/
[14:19] PeterThoeny: e.g. package name based on release and svn number
[14:20] SteffenPoulsen: Hi SvenDowideit: sounds great .. i am trying to figure a good 
        way to commit it to svn, will commit some time this week I hope
[14:20] MichaelDaum: there are some steps in the core builder that could be left out 
        for daily builds
[14:20] SteffenPoulsen: (not the vm itself, just the scripts)
[14:20] SvenDowideit: just mail em, we'll see
[14:20] SvenDowideit: prolly better to just use the deb directly
[14:21] SvenDowideit: btw, the unit tests are pretty much toast atm
[14:21] SteffenPoulsen: yep, that way it will be easy to let the deb replace what is 
        doubled by it
[14:21] Lavr: Michael yes if we can bypass the creation of correct ,v files the load 
        on making a daily is close to nothing.
[14:21] SvenDowideit: not on the svn server its not
[14:21] PeterThoeny: lets take the nightly build offline
[14:21] MichaelDaum: k
[14:21] PeterThoeny: who would like to take the lead?
[14:22] SvenDowideit: anyhoo, last thing - timing for meeting - i'm not good after 
        6-7pm zurich time
[14:22] SvenDowideit: so either ignore me, or, take pot luck
[14:22] SteffenPoulsen: I will try to set up a svk mirror asap (this week) .. don't 
        know about lead though
[14:22] PeterThoeny: thanks steffen on action item for mirror
[14:23] PeterThoeny: who can help out steffen on build script?
[14:23] MichaelDaum: Lavr, can you creat that cron job you talked about?
[14:23] Lavr: This is the script I use today.
[14:23] MichaelDaum: right
[14:24] Lavr: #!/bin/sh
[14:24] Lavr: rm -f `find . -type l -print`
[14:24] Lavr: perl pseudo-install.pl -link default
[14:24] Lavr: cd lib
[14:24] Lavr: perl ../tools/build.pl release
[14:24] MichaelDaum: as you've done the recent builds you know that part best
[14:24] SteffenPoulsen: I will ping you Lavr once svk is up :-)
[14:24] PeterThoeny: thanks
[14:24] PeterThoeny: next:
[14:24] PeterThoeny: # Kenneth: Looking to add at least two more people - preferable 
        non-developers to share the role as customers advocate
[14:24] Lavr: I know two problems with it as cron. It asks you if you want to name 
        (and upload) the release half way. We need a switch to bypass this.
[14:25] Lavr: The other is the ,v files.
[14:25] MichaelDaum: the third the svn checkins
[14:25] Lavr: OK. NEXT. Yes. Steffen are you still customer advocate?
[14:25] SteffenPoulsen: yes
[14:25] Lavr: Michael - you do not do SVN checkin when you answer NO to naming the 
        release. And that is what we should do.
[14:26] *** OliverKrueger has joined #twiki_release.
[14:26] PeterThoeny: kenneth, it would be helpful to have a codev topic that documents 
        the purpose and role of customer advocate
[14:26] * OliverKrueger waves
[14:26] Lavr: I was hoping to maybe get one of the regular non-core developers as a 
        third C.A.
[14:26] * PeterThoeny waves back and thinks it's nice to get more folks participate 
        in the meeting 
[14:26] Lavr: We already have a definition on the release process doc.
[14:27] SteffenPoulsen: Hi Oliver :-)
[14:27] OliverKrueger: Hi Steffen.
[14:28] PeterThoeny: i think it is good to give customer advocates some visibility
[14:28] PeterThoeny: linked to from the readmefirst in codev
[14:28] PeterThoeny: so that we can recruit more over time
[14:29] SteffenPoulsen: yes, it is .. as they are probably not closely following dto, 
        it might be a good idea to have a procedure to involve them per email or 
        perhaps even by phone
[14:29] PeterThoeny: they can be recruited also from the support web
[14:30] PeterThoeny: that is where many non-coders hang out
[14:30] Lavr: Remember the C.A. role is not a release manager. I have had the two hats 
        but the C.A. role is simply to keep an eye on the new proposals and make sure 
        they are not ignored and a conclusion eventually made.
[14:31] SteffenPoulsen: we could try to contact ScottHoge, StephaneLenclud or maybe 
        DanielRohde?
[14:31] PeterThoeny: i see the c.a. role mainly to look at features and provide feedback 
        so that twiki evolves with usability in mind
[14:31] Lavr: I am taking some vacation time - and I am alone (SWMBO in Canada) - in the 
        Easter week - so I plan to work on the TWiki app for the proposals then.
[14:32] PeterThoeny: i would say, first step is a topic in codev that talks directly to 
        potential c.a.
[14:32] SteffenPoulsen: excellent plan :-)
[14:32] PeterThoeny: ok, this brings us to next a.i. review:
[14:32] PeterThoeny: # Arthur/Kenneth/Peter: Need to update the TWiki application so the 
        process becomes less manual
[14:32] SteffenPoulsen: personas are still outstanding as well, there's just not enough 
        interest yet to get them airborne
[14:33] PeterThoeny: yes, personas are very good to get a better understanding how twiki 
        is used
[14:33] Lavr: TWiki App - I will work focussed on that round Easter. Ie. one week from 
        now.
[14:33] PeterThoeny: excellent :-) :-)
[14:34] PeterThoeny: please coordinate with arthur and me
[14:34] PeterThoeny: but overall you have the best oversight on what is needed
[14:34] PeterThoeny: because of your release manager role
[14:34] PeterThoeny: ---+ 2. Review Proposed Features
[14:35] MichaelDaum: I'd like to check in my TWikiCache stuff
[14:35] PeterThoeny: lets first address crawford point on high # of bugs
[14:35] OliverKrueger: Hi Michael
[14:35] MichaelDaum: Hallo Olli
[14:36] PeterThoeny: i think he brings a valid point
[14:36] PeterThoeny: we have so many open bugs
[14:36] PeterThoeny: for the last few patch releases we mainly focused on the urgent 
        ones
[14:36] PeterThoeny: as a result we have many "normal" and "low" ones
[14:37] PeterThoeny: how can we motivate developers to work also on fixing bugs?
[14:38] PeterThoeny: it is more sexy to work on new features, but...
[14:38] SteffenPoulsen: this is a sore point for me, I am sure a tinderbox or other 
        automated test-framework is the right thing to apply to give this more 
        attention and realtime feedback on bugfixing
[14:38] SteffenPoulsen: me and Will promised to look into this a while ago but never 
        got it set up properly
[14:39] PeterThoeny: more automated testing is good, but we have a large backlog on 
        identified bugs...
[14:39] Lavr: I really have the feeling that most of the pending bugs are more kind 
        you get once you really start using TWiki in all corners. They are not the kind 
        you find by failing unit tests etc
[14:39] SteffenPoulsen: well, I can only say what motivates me .. which is a long the 
        lines of having "one red lamp removed from my flight board"
[14:40] PeterThoeny: good point, making bugs stick out and disapear when fix
[14:40] PeterThoeny: that is a motivator
[14:41] Lavr: I guess we need to sit down some of us in a bug review meeting and define 
        the top 30 of the normal/low bugs and then use normal encouragement.
[14:41] PeterThoeny: we have nice color leds taht can be used by a bug stats twiki app :-)
[14:41] SvenDowideit: yes, order the sucker
[14:41] Lavr: But we need to seperate this from these meetings because we have a long 
        backlog now of proposals and that also demotivates.
[14:41] SvenDowideit: that'd help me too
[14:42] SvenDowideit: and if they can have tests that show the problem, then it'd be 
        even faster
[14:42] PeterThoeny: ok, let's leave the bug backlog issue for now, and lets pick it 
        up at later meeting
[14:42] SvenDowideit: in fact, if bugs contain failing TestCases ala the TestCases 
        web....
[14:42] PeterThoeny: and lets review features
[14:43] PeterThoeny: kenneth, do you have a list of features that you'd like to discuss?
[14:43] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/TWikiFeature04x02
[14:43] Lavr: Let some of the drivers that are present propose what they want to get 
        working on. Micha had one
[14:44] PeterThoeny: ok, fine with me
[14:44] PeterThoeny: twikicache
[14:44] Lavr: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/TWikiCache
[14:45] PeterThoeny: micha, could you give a quick overview of what you'd like to 
        accomplish on this meeting?
[14:45] MichaelDaum: this code needs more testers
[14:45] PeterThoeny: spec? go/no-go?
[14:45] MichaelDaum: it is in "works for me" state but thats not enuf
[14:46] SvenDowideit: i vote go-go-go, else it will never get enough test time for 
        release
[14:46] SvenDowideit: the more complex the changes, the earlier in the cycle they need 
        to begin to goin
[14:46] SvenDowideit: and i'm hanging off my user changes til we see some of cache
[14:46] MichaelDaum: SvenDowideit, you havev a depending feature request to use the 
        cache 
[14:46] PeterThoeny: by default, will caching be enabled?
[14:47] MichaelDaum: PeterThoeny, no
[14:47] SvenDowideit: rather than having 2 big changes happen at once
[14:47] SvenDowideit: ya, very true too
[14:47] Lavr: I think we all agree that making a cache is a good thing. I guess the 
        whole thing is more a discussion of implementation.
[14:47] MichaelDaum: having the twiki cache in but not enabling it does not change the 
        rest of twiki's behavior (for now)
[14:47] PeterThoeny: it's also a go-go-go for me, provided that no measurable 
        performance impact with disabled cache compared to old codebase
[14:48] MichaelDaum: okay
[14:48] MichaelDaum: I will check it in next days
[14:49] PeterThoeny: micha: possible to ship twiki with file based cache backend?
[14:49] PeterThoeny: so that caching can be enabled without installing additional 
        modules?
[14:49] SvenDowideit: easypeasy, even if we have to write our own, dumbcache
[14:49] PeterThoeny: all: any voice for not yet checking in micha's code?
[14:49] SvenDowideit: and that would still make it faster
[14:50] SvenDowideit: as my template cache code showed
[14:50] Lavr: I am reading
[14:50] MichaelDaum: DB_File is available on all perl versions
[14:50] MichaelDaum: but that backend has no purging
[14:50] SvenDowideit: y, but some people are scared of anything that says DB
[14:50] SvenDowideit: (i like a file cache for debugging too)
[14:50] MichaelDaum: the plain DB_File backend is not displacing any cache entries
[14:51] PeterThoeny: if it is something they do not need to configure it is a moot 
        point
[14:51] PeterThoeny: (the concern i mean)
[14:51] SteffenPoulsen: trying out caching options for twiki is important, I am for 
        checkin it into MAIN also
[14:51] PeterThoeny: ok, no voices against it
[14:51] MichaelDaum: I will be happy to get any feedback from y'all
[14:51] PeterThoeny: means a green light :-)
[14:52] PeterThoeny: (where is the green led in my irc client?)
[14:52] Lavr: Seems like an exiting new thing to try.
[14:52] Lavr: :green-led: is what we use in our TWiki :-)))
[14:52] PeterThoeny: micha: anything you like to ask us, or discuss now?
[14:53] MichaelDaum: no the rest can be discussed offline
[14:53] PeterThoeny: ok
[14:53] MichaelDaum: in TWiki:Codev/TWikiCache
[14:53] PeterThoeny: next item? (by anyone)
[14:54] OliverKrueger: I have a mini feature request, but havent had the time to 
        write a topic for it.
[14:54] PeterThoeny: quick overview?
[14:54] OliverKrueger: I would like to add a few more params to the 
        renderWikiWordHandler hook.
[14:55] PeterThoeny: that can be useful
[14:55] OliverKrueger: At the moment, the potential plugin only gets the text. I would 
        like to add the topic, web, anchor, ...
[14:55] PeterThoeny: best to document in codev topic
[14:55] Lavr: Yes. We need to read a complete spec to properly understand the impact.
[14:55] SvenDowideit: OliverKrueger, spec it, it'll be done , i wanted similar recently
[14:56] PeterThoeny: sounds like a no-brainer to me
[14:56] PeterThoeny: any other feature item to discuss?
[14:56] SvenDowideit: btw, does anyone know why the renderWikiWordHandler does not get 
        applied to [[]] links?
[14:56] OliverKrueger: I just need to change a single line in Plugins.pm...
[14:56] SvenDowideit: cos if there's no good reason, i'd like that added at the same 
        time (simple to do, lots of unit tests to write)
[14:56] OliverKrueger: Yes. I know. ;) Cause its not called for them. ;)
[14:57] Lavr: CaseInsensitiveUserMapping - Do we have an agreement on spec? Sven has 
        taken the initiative to drive it it seems.
[14:57] SvenDowideit: OliverKrueger, no, its a huge amount of unit tests to write
[14:57] PeterThoeny: consider also the autolinking on and off cases
[14:57] SvenDowideit: y, zactly, so if anyone remembers why MC didn't do it, please 
        post on the topic
[14:57] SvenDowideit: so i can be damned careful
[14:58] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/CaseInsensitiveUserMapping 
        looks like a no-brainer to me
[14:58] SteffenPoulsen: Green light for doc'ing in Codev
[14:58] SteffenPoulsen: we are getting close to +60
[14:58] PeterThoeny: yes, two minutes left
[14:58] SvenDowideit: its not so trivial code wise perhaps, but its releated to case 
        insensitive topic mapping
[14:58] Lavr: Micha has had some good input recently on the whole user mapping with 
        respect to performance. So maybe if Sven does an update to this this should be 
        considered as well
[14:59] OliverKrueger: renderWikiWordHandler: It would be nice, too, if the plugin can 
        change the html-link aswell... :)
[14:59] PeterThoeny: who is driving CaseInsensitiveUserMapping?
[14:59] SvenDowideit: OliverKrueger, toss it all on topic, we'll discard whats too hard :)
[14:59] OliverKrueger: Ok. :)
[14:59] Lavr: #  TWikiInstaller - I propose this is taken off the list and replaced by 
        smaller chunks that can be managed and committed.
[14:59] SvenDowideit: be nice for someone to drive from a user perspective, i'm codin
[15:00] SvenDowideit: Lavr, did you see my answers?
[15:00] Lavr: No.
[15:00] SvenDowideit: its already alot further than you imply
[15:00] SvenDowideit: debian required LSB
[15:00] SvenDowideit: LSB should work on moest linux's
[15:00] SvenDowideit: being the point
[15:01] PeterThoeny: on http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/ControlOverVariableExpansion,
[15:01] SvenDowideit: i don't have recent rpm exp, so someone needs to have a go at 
        alien, and see what happend
[15:01] Lavr: There are some small differences in where Apache configs are between 
        debian and RedHat for example.
[15:01] PeterThoeny: i would like to get feedback one more time before i finalize the 
        spec
[15:01] SvenDowideit: won't know til someone tries, and then we can fix / adjust
[15:01] PeterThoeny: we do not need to discuss now
[15:02] SvenDowideit: ControlOverVariableExpansion - need time to digest :/
[15:02] PeterThoeny: ok, +62 min
[15:02] Lavr: On the TWikiInstaller the only decision I was looking for was to split up 
        in smaller bites.
[15:02] PeterThoeny: kenneth: sounds good
[15:03] SteffenPoulsen: I need to run along to catch some sleep
[15:03] PeterThoeny: time to close, as a closing note i would like to encourage all to 
        keep coding and adding nice features
[15:04] Lavr: .. and fix bugs ... and run unit tests :-)
[15:04] PeterThoeny: small no-brainers do not need a codev topic (such as adding a small 
        paramter to SEARCH)
[15:04] PeterThoeny: yes
[15:04] PeterThoeny: ok, thanks all!
[15:04] PeterThoeny: kenneth: i can attach the minutes now if you wish
[15:04] SteffenPoulsen: yep, thanks all, see you around :-)
[15:04] Lavr: Yes. The small no-brainer can go strait to Bugs as long as they do not 
        break compatibility.
[15:05] Lavr: Peter. Attach in 3 minutes. Then I have caught up with the minutes.
[15:05] PeterThoeny: ok, will do
[15:09] Lavr: Minutes saved