Session Start: Mon Apr 17 22:39:29 2006 Session Ident: #twiki_edinburgh [22:39] * Now talking in #twiki_edinburgh [22:39] * Topic is 'http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/EdinburghReleaseMeeting2006x04x17' [22:39] * Set by SamHasler on Mon Apr 17 19:06:59 [22:40] * Soronthar has joined #twiki_edinburgh [22:40] hi all [22:41] Hiya, Raf! [22:41] Hi Meredith [22:42] That's not a real Sven [22:42] Hi all. [22:44] Hi Kenneth [22:46] Hope CDot notices that Bugs is down at some point [22:51] * Drusilla is desperately trying to stay awake at this point [22:54] * CDot has joined #twiki_edinburgh [22:54] Bugs is down [22:55] And hi [22:55] Dwat that wabbit [22:57] * Lynnwood has joined #twiki_edinburgh [22:57] Hey all. [22:57] Lynnwood! [22:57] Particularly a pleasure to see SamHasler around! [22:58] * SamHasler waves [23:02] The meeting will start in 40 minutes from now, right? [23:02] g'nite [23:02] * SteffenPoulsen has joined #twiki_edinburgh [23:02] evening all [23:02] i thought it was going to start now. [23:02] hi Lynnwood, hi Steffen [23:03] * Lynnwood waves [23:03] Hi Ho. I expect it to start now. [23:03] please start :-) [23:03] * ArthurClemens has joined #twiki_edinburgh [23:03] * ArthurClemens has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection) [23:03] 21 GMT == 17 here... that's 20 minutes ago. You're right :) [23:03] I haven't touched in with Peter, but if there's no objections i step in a facilitator. [23:04] Now *that's* the way to handle a meeting [23:04] I am in progress with minutes [23:04] thanks Lavr [23:04] thanks Lavr [23:04] Any comments or additional to the agenda. [23:05] ? [23:05] * ArthurClemens has joined #twiki_edinburgh [23:05] posted at http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/EdinburghReleaseMeeting2006x04x17 [23:05] * ArthurClemens has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection) [23:05] Perhaps post dakar bug tracking... but I'll raise it only if there is time left at the end. [23:05] Guess we'll skip PatternSkin ;) [23:05] Am i right in understanding the points under "Review Previous Action Items" were brought over from the last meeting? [23:06] * ArthurClemens has joined #twiki_edinburgh [23:06] OK Soronthar has requested adding Post Dakar bug tracking if there's tmie. [23:06] Lynnwood: I believe so [23:06] * ArthurClemens has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection) [23:07] * PeterThoeny has joined #twiki_edinburgh [23:07] well let's get started... [23:07] hi all [23:07] just in time. Welcome PeterThoeny [23:07] sorry for the delay, just off of a conf call [23:07] we were just ready to start [23:07] hi peter [23:07] ---+ Review Previous Action Items [23:08] ---++ develop.twiki.org server move [23:08] seems complete to me [23:08] except for the mail sender [23:08] * ArthurClemens has joined #twiki_edinburgh [23:08] some followup is needed [23:08] sorry, my client crashes on me [23:08] mail from develop would be cool [23:08] now from another comp [23:09] the commit "from" address should include the name of the committer [23:09] not sure if the fastserver logo is added to develop.twiki.org [23:09] sven here? [23:10] Peter - is that a new item or additional info on one of the action items already there. [23:10] No, Sven isn't here. [23:10] no and it is [23:10] the logo is review a.i. [23:10] the "from" is new [23:11] So Lavr - perhaps you could check what's done and add the new items. [23:11] I believe there are TWO open issues. [23:11] and sven is supposed to add me to the admin of the server [23:11] 1. From address. [23:12] 2. Sync passwords from twiki.org so users and register and report bugs right away. [23:12] 3. document server setup for admins (i asked sven) [23:12] 4. add peter to admin (i asked sven) [23:13] ok great! Any other notes on this item? [23:13] Then moving ahead... [23:13] fyi, i documented already the admin stuff i got from fasservers [23:13] I guess holiday/family has had priority on the latter two. [23:13] ---++ TWiki 4.0.2 follow up [23:13] What with password syncing. Who has actions and how should it be done? [23:14] pwd sync: i think this is with sven [23:14] Sorry, Lavr - is this a new point under the server move? [23:14] i think he is concerned about security [23:14] No. Just when our users want to report bugs they have no account. [23:14] lynnwood: this is 2. [23:15] thanks [23:15] Unless they have already registered on twiki.org days before. [23:15] right now, sven does a manual copy once in a while [23:15] meaning that users who arrive on twiki.org andf register to file a bug can't file a bug [23:15] Yep. And that is not good for new users that want to report bugs. [23:15] yep [23:16] i thought it was cron'ned now [23:16] i have not heard from sven that it is [23:16] Rather than speculating, shall we just note this as an open item until Sven can review it? [23:17] anyway a.i. for sven [23:17] moving on to TWiki 4.0.2 follow up.. [23:17] FYI i just checked; it is not cronned [23:17] would someone shake Will. he said a little while ago he was going to take a nap before this meeting. :-) [23:18] I think that the password sync'ing can be discussed under the post dakar bug tracking point. [23:18] I have recorded an action. As long as we agreed it should be better. [23:19] ok [23:19] Can we get a quick check-off on the "TWiki 4.0.2 follow up" items? [23:19] has the patch been uploaded to the download page? [23:20] Yes. All related to patch has been done. [23:20] is it? [23:20] i do not see it at http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/DownloadTWiki [23:21] just the changed files [23:21] You have to look very hard. Took me a while to find it [23:21] It's also unlabeled [23:21] It is not hidden and not promoted very hard. The compromise solution. [23:21] And it is also on Known Issues page. [23:22] it needs to be linked from in the " Release Download Information" section of http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/TWikiRelease04x00x02 [23:22] next to the "changed files" link [23:22] It is on a row just below. [23:22] no, that is the fix afaik [23:23] for the e-mail bug [23:23] AHHHH!. We talk about different things. Silly me. [23:23] No patch was never uploaded. [23:23] Well it was - and removed because it did not contain the new files. [23:23] we need a "patch" link next to "changed files", as we did for 4.0.1 [23:24] meredith, where did you find it? [23:24] Sorry, same mistake as Kenneth [23:24] ok [23:24] this is an a.i. for will [23:25] Noted. [23:25] OK. if he shows up, then perhaps we can give him a minute to update us on anything else. [23:25] Please make sure he is informed of it, and don;t just expect him to read the minutes. [23:25] Then on to... [23:25] ---++ TWiki 4.0.3 release [23:26] CDot - i'll make sure of that. i'll be talking with him (hopefully) at some point today. [23:26] I will take the action to inform Will [23:26] one of us will... :-) [23:26] Has anyone done anything on the upgrade script? Or offered to?? [23:28] no [23:28] Question: is the current intent for the upgrade script to be able to upgrade from all earlier versions? or from 4.0.0? [23:28] Lynnwood: who are you asking? [23:29] It was made for Cairo to Dakar I believe and the reports on IRC from users have been mixed. [23:29] Mixed success that is. [23:29] CDot - it was to anyone and just an aside anyway. [23:29] Personally I think the upgrade script should be able to upgrade any N to N+M for all N, M [23:29] that would be nice, certainly... [23:30] To clarify for me, what the upgrade script identified as a desired objective for 4.0.3? [23:30] I think the problem is that users have the wrong expectations of what it actually does. [23:30] maybe [23:31] in other words, why is this included in discussion of 4.0.3? [23:31] I think they have reasonable expectations, from what I have seen [23:31] But we don't have a champion for it. Right? [23:31] correct [23:31] that is exactly the problem [23:32] We should note Kenneth's valiant effort in documenting the upgrade procedures [23:32] and from what I have seen, no coder has stepped forward to support it [23:32] (as a partial aside) [23:32] OK. Than I suggest that we not spend too much time brainstorming a feature that is 1) not currently part of the release & 2) doesn't have a champion. [23:33] however i think an AI is required [23:33] And I second Drusilla's acknowledgement of Kenneth! [23:33] a more proactive approach to finding a champion, perhaps [23:33] yes, thank you kenneth for the doc, must have taken a long time to compile and test! [23:34] 8 hours :-) [23:34] Was worth every minute. [23:34] that is customer focus :-) [23:35] Let me take a quick poll: how important is it for us to include the upgrade script in 4.0.3? [23:35] 1 = not important [23:35] yep, that really raised our expectations, Lavr :-) [23:35] 5 = crucially important. [23:35] 4 [23:35] 4 [23:36] 4 [23:36] 4 [23:36] 5 (from customer perspective), 2 (from developer perspective) [23:36] Well, there seems to be strong support. (I would have voted 1 or 2) [23:36] Quick suggestions for how to find/motivate/reward a champion? [23:36] 1 for new users and me. 4 from existing installation [23:37] No one will update the script if no one feels the pain [23:37] well... perhaps there is an altruistic spirit out there [23:38] two words: déformation professionelle [23:39] If no one has suggestions, i suggest we set this aside for a minute and look at the other item under 4.0.3. [23:39] * Lynnwood didn't understand Peter's comment. [23:40] * PeterThoeny thinks it doesn't really translate well into English but conveys the idea that a person's viewpoint is coloured by their professional experience. It means a chiropractor has a tendency to look at people's postures, a house painter to look at cracks or peels wherever he goes, etc [23:40] ah. thanks [23:41] What's the status of the "urgent/requirements" bug list? [23:41] Do we have a list that's targeted for 4.0.3? [23:41] One "urgent" against Engine [23:41] courtesy of Dru [23:41] rest are all normal; I think I fixed all the important ones [23:42] If it's the edit_template, you can downgrade it. [23:42] yep [23:42] It was urgent for me. [23:42] Or, rather, don't rely on my sense of urgency [23:42] CDot: so you did :-) thanks very much from this side of the table [23:42] Any pending translations because of fixes? [23:43] i have seen changes to sandbox.webhome [23:43] Lavr: checking [23:44] I'm sorry for my lack of familiarity with current practice. Looking at "Item by Urgency" I see quite a few Urgent and Requirement bugs listed. [23:44] The 2nd thing I want to ask is: Are there any changes of doc nature that have no impact to the upgrader that should NOT be included in the -changed and -patch packages? [23:44] Lynnwood: sorry, my fault [23:44] a few other urgents have appeared [23:44] Lavr: after xgettext update: msgfmt --statistics --output=/dev/null locale/da.po [23:44] 672 translated messages, 1 untranslated message. [23:44] How do we distinguish what is intended for 4.0.3 [23:44] took me by surprise [23:45] Should we review the status of bugs that are currently assigned Urgent/Requirement to see if they are appropriate? [23:45] Lavr: no, i don;t think so [23:46] chinese was not updated since 4.0.2: [23:46] 668 translated messages, 3 fuzzy translations, 2 untranslated messages. [23:46] Lynnwood: I think I (and others) can do that off-line [23:46] we don;t have to do it in-forum [23:46] so, 5 strings changed so far [23:46] OK - I'm always good with that. :-) [23:46] CDot. Probably something we should review by creating the -changed zip and reviewing the list of files that are in my upgrade topic. [23:47] Do we want to discuss any kind of time frame for 4.0.3? Is this needed? [23:47] how pressing is 4.0.3? [23:47] that's kind of my question... [23:47] any opinions? [23:47] Lavr: you are usually a sane voice for expressing this kind of opinion [23:48] We can wait a few weeks with no problem. Even a month I would say. [23:48] OK [23:48] anything that helps improve the quality reputation of twiki is important [23:48] Then perhaps we return to the question of the upgrade script. [23:48] It is a balance between having too many releases and fixing bugs. [23:48] That would be a nice thing to include, if someone could pick it up. [23:49] PeterThoeny: how many bug fixes in 4.0.3 do you think are pressing? Do you have clients queuing up for fixes? [23:49] I'd be willing to test it. [23:49] if there is a demand, we should release [23:49] otherwise, let's set a target date [23:49] and just do a "regular update" [23:50] i am more concerned about new downloaders who are faced with bugs [23:50] If we get better at providing small fixes for download of the very severe bugs we can slow down the release rate now that 4.0.X seems to stabilize and focus has moved towards updating plugins. [23:51] I'd be quite happy for us to release tomorrow, if people think the balance is right [23:52] personally I haven't heard any demand for any of the fixes i have put into 4.0.3 so far. At least, i don;t recall any. [23:52] someone feel free to correct me... but none of the current urgent bugs seem that urgent. [23:52] most bugfixing activity is in plugins [23:52] as in... I just downloaded TWiki and am really annoyed by THIS [23:52] the e-mail patch makes a bad impression for new downloaders [23:52] well, the broken CGI::Session is really annoying [23:53] PeterThoeny: have you had some feedback on that? [23:53] Do we have a *TWiki* fix for the CGI::Session problem? [23:53] Lavr: yes, there is a workaround [23:53] Because that is the single problem we have had most responses on - on #twiki. [23:54] We're running out of time [23:55] * ArthurCl has joined #twiki_edinburgh [23:55] sigh - almost 20 minutes lost [23:55] Lynnwood: I think the answer is "a 4.0.3 release would be good, but it's not critical" [23:55] The CGI Session may be a good reason to release in a not too far future. [23:56] ok, look at it another way [23:56] Why don't we table release target date until next week? [23:56] does anyone have the energy to make a release? [23:56] remember; testing, doc checks, build, releasenotes, publicity [23:56] that's a good question. [23:56] But we should take some days to get the content of the -changed and -patch right so upgrading from 4.0.2 to 4.0.3 does not become a huge thing for our poor admin users. [23:56] upload, patch build [23:57] How about providing a hotfix patch for 4.0.2 which will be linked to ONLY from the known issues page? [23:57] the doc work on new release is manageable on twiki.org [23:57] Just for the CGI thing [23:57] most of time is taken for build & test [23:58] yes, and the question is, who is going to provide the energy to do it, if it is to be done? [23:58] table it. [23:58] I don't hear anyone stepping forward, so I'm assuming we don;t have critical mass for a release at this time. [23:58] Can we note for now a request for someone to do the release? [23:58] i usually do the doc work on twiki.org, more than happy to do each time [23:58] sure [23:58] If we make a CGI hotfix I would propose 4.0.3 release date to be round May 20. [23:59] thanks Peter. that's an important piece. [23:59] Any objections to Lavr's proposal? [23:59] no [23:59] Anyone see a problem with it as a working target date? [23:59] that is 5 weeks out Session Time: Tue Apr 18 00:00:00 2006 [00:00] i'd like soon, in one or two weeks [00:00] Propose a date. [00:00] because of quality perception [00:00] * ArthurClemens has quit IRC (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) [00:00] what about as soon as the hotfix for CGI::Session is available? [00:01] peter, it's fine to say that, but you need to motivate someone to do the build and test [00:01] * ArthurCl is now known as ArthurClemens [00:01] how about, I mean? [00:01] otherwise it's academic [00:01] And we find someone to do the release... [00:01] Soronthar: the hotfix for CGI::Session is there [00:01] all an end user needs to do is upgrade CGI::Session to 4.11 [00:01] there is a bigger question (not for this meeting) : how to make a build less labor intensive [00:02] or apply a trivial 1-line TWiki code change [00:02] the build isn;t labour intensive [00:02] CDot: you're right... didn't read the whole topic [00:02] it's the test that is labour intensive [00:02] a build only takes 10 minutes, but testing it can take ages [00:02] s/build/dot release/ [00:02] Can the work of the tests be shared? [00:02] well, you know my view on that [00:03] more automated tests, up front [00:03] more testcases [00:03] reduce the amount of manual testing [00:03] Please excuse me for a moment. I'll be back in ~3 minutes. [00:04] on release date, we can't set a release date until we have someone commiting to the build [00:05] not sure if will is inclined to build 4.0.3 [00:05] so, mute point to discuss this item further unless someone steps forward [00:06] no one can say what energy will be available at next meeting .. once revcomment trilogy / patternskin issues are clear, I'd like a new release personally, but I have no rush until then [00:06] So action could be to ask Will if he is interested and how soon. [00:06] sounds good [00:06] next: [00:06] ---+++ CSS-related issues [00:07] 9th of May could be a good working date. With the actual zips ready a week before. [00:07] i have no update on that [00:07] We've done a few 'fixes' [00:07] starting the css with a class, not a comment [00:07] fixing a html bug [00:07] and yet there was a user this week on IRC that had the same problem on Firefox [00:07] arthur: that did not fix the issue unfortunately [00:07] ArthurClemens: any update on the firefox problem? [00:08] * CDot had the firefox problem this morning [00:08] what I am writing just now :-) [00:08] did anyone see this on a 4.0.2 installation? [00:08] I'm back [00:08] I was using 4.0.2 at the time [00:08] CDot, does it ever happen on DEVELOP? [00:08] but I also saw it on t.o. [00:09] * Lynnwood reads up [00:09] I have never seen it on DEVELOP myself [00:09] twiki.org is on oct 2004 release version of pattern skin [00:09] i don't think I've seen it anywhere except t.o. [00:09] I had it on a local 4.0.2 [00:09] its true we had a bug report from someone using 4.0.2 [00:10] i thought it had something to do with the caching the Sven implemented on t.o. [00:10] no, the issue is that even though a css is delivered with proper mime type, ff thinks it is text/plain [00:11] and thus rejects the css [00:11] Strange, because the html says clearly text/html [00:11] anyway, lets move on [00:11] ok [00:11] can't find a solution in the meeting here [00:11] ---+ Moving twiki.org to TWiki 4 [00:12] upgrade: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/viewauth/Codev/TWikiOrgUpgradeToTWiki04x00 [00:12] basic test install is done, but with basic auth for now [00:12] outgoing mail is still not working [00:12] sven said that he will look into the server config [00:13] PeterThoeny: are you planning to stick with Apache auth? [00:13] i checked, outgoin e-mail needs to work, there is no config to turn it off (just to turn off e-mail confirm) [00:13] no, apache auth is for testing [00:13] I added a long song about how the security setup could be - and should be in my oppinion. Is that if use? [00:13] perl libs need to be installed [00:14] ...of use [00:14] Shall we discuss the security setup and Lavr's proposal? [00:14] kenneth: good proposal [00:14] i basically need help on: [00:14] PeterThoeny: so you are going to use template auth? [00:14] 1. server config for e-mail [00:15] 2. perl lib installs [00:15] 3. doc update of twiki web topics [00:15] 4. discuss and decide on security setup [00:15] the user home pages can be converted after the fact [00:16] I'm not fully understanding your request Peter. Do you want to discuss those 4 items? [00:17] can some of them be addressed off-line? [00:17] 1,2,3 was help needed. 4 was help reviewing proposal right? [00:17] yes [00:17] Ok. that's what i thought. [00:17] i am basically fine with kenneth proposal [00:18] looks like good to go [00:18] one question though [00:18] danger of cross scripting with cookie based auth [00:18] Does anyone have problems with Kenneth's proposal? Or see issues he did not address? [00:18] possibly reduce the super admin group [00:19] e.g. some core team members would have two accounts [00:19] e.g. i have a PeterThoeny and PeterThoenyAdmin account [00:19] i do all day-to-day work as PeterThoeny [00:19] and use PeterThoenyAdmin only if needed [00:19] does that sound feasible [00:19] As long as you do not put session cookies in URLs I see sessions as being pretty safe. Much safer then authenticating each topic or the old very insecure IP matching. [00:19] or am i too paranoid? [00:20] no, you are not [00:20] the reason I asked is that I think you should stick with apache auth [00:20] why? [00:20] basic auth encrypts the password exchange with the server [00:20] template auth sends it in plain [00:21] oh [00:21] fine if you have an SSL server [00:21] but for a public server like t.o [00:21] I prefer apache auth [00:21] I prefer it too even if it does not present itself as nicely. [00:21] downside of apache auth comapred to template? [00:21] no logout [00:21] just visual? [00:22] no, you can't log out [00:22] ah, yes [00:22] more than visual [00:22] You get the normal browser login screen instead of the nice html login page. And you logout by closing browser. [00:22] Have to quit browser [00:22] hate it [00:22] but on t.o. that is a minor point [00:22] but it's the behavior we've grown to expect on t.o.. [00:22] as 99% have a personal login [00:23] another point is that plugins which use session vars won;t work [00:23] ok, then lest go for apache auth [00:23] It is only when you have more accounts or use computers in meeting rooms you need to logout. [00:23] yes [00:23] Very good point, CDot [00:23] the big issue we have now is nat, e.g. shared ip addresses [00:23] I will update my proposal to reflect that then. [00:24] PeterThoeny: you should switch off IP mapping [00:24] which will be fixed with cookies [00:24] With sessions that problem is 100% gone. Noone enters as someone else. [00:24] right [00:24] ok, done [00:24] great [00:24] i need help on lib install [00:24] i ask sven [00:25] The reason for not having cookies in URLS is that people forget and send URLS with the cookies by email. [00:25] i need help on twiki web topics, anyone? [00:26] what topics? [00:26] Peter - i'm trying to understand how that will happen. [00:26] Take the current TWiki web topics and replace with 4.0 versions, plus other t.o. bits? [00:26] i keep track on topic updates in temp topic at http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/TWiki/ZzzZ [00:27] basically, proper header&footer needs to be added, and topic synched [00:27] I could help after May 1 [00:27] maybe a bit before, but no promises. sorry. [00:28] actually, for upgrade we do not need to fix all topics [00:28] I have a few hours only the comming week that I can spend. Then I travel for one week (USA). But if I can help with a few hours. [00:28] kenneth: by any chance in s.f. bay area? [00:28] Las Vegas. Pure pleasure trip [00:28] I can spend hours after this week, as I am moving [00:28] So we need to note an action item for this with request for help and instructions on where to get more info. [00:28] have fun :-) [00:29]