Date: February 9, 2012 10:47:33 PM PST Subject: JerusalemMeetingLog2012x02x10.txt [8:44pm]  starshine joined the chat room. [8:44pm] starshine: hi PeterThoeny [8:44pm] PeterThoeny: hi starshine! [8:45pm] PeterThoeny: we are early [8:45pm] PeterThoeny: meetings starts in about 15 min [8:45pm] starshine: better than the other way [8:45pm] PeterThoeny: yep [8:46pm] starshine: I haven't peeked in, in ages... [8:46pm] starshine: but, I'm now working someplace where we actively use twiki all day, so that's valid too. [8:48pm] PeterThoeny: a, cool! [8:48pm] PeterThoeny: what company are you at again? [8:49pm] starshine: cisco's "STG" unit, iow, ironport [8:49pm] starshine: fighting malware and spam is as endless as doing dishes, however, we make dishwashers [8:50pm] PeterThoeny: [8:50pm] PeterThoeny: are you doing perl at work? [8:50pm] starshine: Some.  More python. Mostly sysadmin'ing tho [8:50pm] starshine: and docs. [8:51pm] starshine: lots of docs. [8:52pm]  himazu joined the chat room. [8:57pm] PeterThoeny: hi himazu-san [8:57pm]  EnriqueCadalso joined the chat room. [8:57pm] PeterThoeny: starshine:  ian kluft found a job he likes [8:57pm] PeterThoeny: except for the commute it seems like [8:57pm] PeterThoeny: hi EnriqueCadalso [8:57pm] starshine: PeterThoeny:  ha, who ever likes to commute? [8:58pm] EnriqueCadalso: Hello. [8:58pm] starshine: I knew one person who loves to drive, and he still hated commutes [8:58pm] himazu: hi Peter [8:59pm] PeterThoeny: really depends on traffic; i have never seen someone who likes bumper to bumper traffic [8:59pm] PeterThoeny: good we have some more folks today! [8:59pm] himazu: indeed! [8:59pm] PeterThoeny: lets wait until our release manager george is here [8:59pm] starshine: meanwhile I am enjoying reading the FeatureProposals page [9:00pm] starshine: PeterThoeny:  you'll laugh, one of our pages is named DieDieWYSIWYGHowto [9:00pm] PeterThoeny: minutes at http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/JerusalemReleaseMeeting2012x02x10 [9:00pm] PeterThoeny: [9:01pm] PeterThoeny: the wysiwyg editor has some quirks [9:01pm] PeterThoeny: hopefully someone takes the time to update to latest tinymce [9:02pm] starshine: yeah, and we do inclusions, and the wiki is shared space between overlapping teams, all of whom are geeky - so at our place the wysiwyg is considered a mite creepy and we avoid it [9:02pm] starshine: other units may have another opinion [9:02pm] himazu: at least it lower the barrier to entry for non geeky people [9:02pm] starshine: yes [9:03pm] starshine: it's one of twiki's finest features [9:03pm] starshine: "oh its ok it supports basic html too" "it does? well ok then  :D" [9:03pm] PeterThoeny: yep, geeks love the html feature in twiki [9:04pm] PeterThoeny: may be we can introduce us to each other sonce we have some new folks [9:04pm] himazu: raw javascript too [9:04pm] starshine: sure [9:04pm] PeterThoeny: well, old timers, but new to this group [9:04pm] starshine: we have enough of us here to begin intros, or I can wait I think [9:04pm] starshine: ? [9:04pm] PeterThoeny: i like the fact that i can use html, css and js when i create twiki apps [9:05pm] himazu: I recently embed jqPlot chart library to show pie charts on TWiki topic. [9:06pm] starshine: I have been using wiki of several kinds for a long number of years, mostly as a consultant, sometimes as a documentor, I've done CSS work for people too [9:06pm] PeterThoeny: ok, i sent george an sms [9:07pm] starshine: I've helped move people from one to another wiki before wikimatrix made it easy to pick which might be best for someone [9:07pm] starshine: and my perl and python skills are equally scary [9:07pm] PeterThoeny: oh, http://www.jqplot.com/ looks nice and modern! [9:08pm] starshine: nice! [9:09pm] PeterThoeny: himazu-san: anything that could be packaged as an add-on? [9:09pm] himazu: I'm doing http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Main/TWikiSuccessStoryOfMorganStanley for the past 5 years [9:09pm] himazu: not really. jqPlot is well-made enough that it doesn't need a lot of tooling [9:10pm] himazu: but putting some concrete examples on TWiki pages would be worth doing [9:10pm] PeterThoeny: starshine is now at cisco; she attended a few twiki user meetups in the silicon valley [9:11pm] PeterThoeny: himazu:  how about packaging as a twiki add-on so that the js lib and how-to docs can be installed via configure? [9:11pm] himazu: that should be neat. [9:11pm] PeterThoeny: EnriqueCadalso:  could you give a short intro? [9:12pm] EnriqueCadalso: Sorry, I was reading the Feature Proposals. [9:12pm] EnriqueCadalso: I have been around TWiki for almos 5 years. [9:12pm] EnriqueCadalso: Provinding support in the site mostly. [9:13pm] EnriqueCadalso: I introduced TWiki in a previous company I was working two years ago and made it to be used in the corporate portal for 7000 users [9:14pm] EnriqueCadalso: now I am working in a wiki consulting company provinding wiki solutions, instalation, migration, integration, etc. not only TWiki but also Atlassian Confluence. [9:14pm] starshine: hrrrm NewAutoModeForTwisty we use holidayplugin results inside twisty and it works fine, those are tables, I wonder if similar smarts could be applied. [9:16pm] himazu: ? [9:16pm] PeterThoeny: time check: +16 min [9:16pm] PeterThoeny: i think we should start [9:16pm] starshine: (it's a feature request saying tables inside twisty act weird.) [9:17pm] PeterThoeny: agenda at http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/JerusalemReleaseMeeting2012x02x10 [9:17pm] PeterThoeny: 1. Feature Requests for Jerusalem Release [9:17pm] PeterThoeny: 2. Review Urgent and Not So Urgent Bugs [9:17pm] PeterThoeny: 3. Miscellaneous [9:17pm] starshine: *click* [9:17pm] PeterThoeny: anything to add? [9:17pm] PeterThoeny: ---++ 1. Feature Requests for Jerusalem Release [9:18pm] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/TWikiFeatureProposals [9:18pm] PeterThoeny: let;s look at some in the first table (jerusalem) marked as "under investigation" [9:19pm] PeterThoeny: DiffAttachments: pretty much on hold [9:19pm] PeterThoeny: i talked with pete yesterday [9:19pm] PeterThoeny: he is traveling to rome today, sitting in the plane right now [9:19pm] PeterThoeny: MoreIntuitiveMoveAndDeletionOfWeb: i proposed today [9:20pm] PeterThoeny: we had a case where someone wanted to delete a web but managed to delete the twiki web [9:20pm] PeterThoeny: this proposal makes it more intuitive to delete/move webs [9:21pm] starshine: can it mention how many pages will be del/moved should one accept the command? [9:21pm] PeterThoeny: in addition, i will raise a bug item to make it impossible to rename/delete the twiki web and main web [9:22pm] PeterThoeny: well, we already have a gui to delete/move webs, just link is buried deep in the webpreferences [9:22pm] starshine: Making the command easier to do will naturally make it more easy to do-without-recourse [9:22pm] PeterThoeny: showing the number of topics before move sounds like a sensible enhancement [9:22pm] PeterThoeny: you could create a proposal [9:22pm] PeterThoeny: or since so small, you could just go with a bug item and check in the changes [9:23pm] PeterThoeny: rename of webs is mostly restricted to admins, so that part is ok [9:24pm] PeterThoeny: although more visible link will make it more open for user errors [9:24pm] starshine: a world of sysadmins is also a world full of people with rootlike power at clutzy fingertips. [9:24pm] PeterThoeny: but should be ok because of admin lockdown [9:24pm] starshine: or non caffeinated minds [9:25pm] PeterThoeny: SecureCookiesForLoginManager: this is stale [9:25pm] PeterThoeny: may be should be parked [9:25pm] PeterThoeny: DatabaseStore: is stale too, chris is no longer active [9:25pm] PeterThoeny: OverridePluginsOrder: needs an owner [9:26pm] PeterThoeny: RollbackAttachmentVersion: owned by pete jones, is on hold [9:26pm] PeterThoeny: WebExtraAttributeRepository: himazu-san, what is the status? [9:26pm] PeterThoeny: twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/WebExtraAttributeRepository [9:26pm] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/WebExtraAttributeRepository [9:27pm] himazu: i'm slowly setting up my dev environment. [9:27pm] himazu: once I finish the smaller item already accepted, i'll work on it [9:28pm] PeterThoeny: in JerusalemReleaseMeeting2012x01x13 we have listed: "need confirmed, Imazu-san to add spec" [9:28pm] PeterThoeny: ok [9:28pm] PeterThoeny: TopicDisplayName: needs  an owner [9:29pm] PeterThoeny: TWikiAppInstaller: i listed myself as an owner [9:29pm] PeterThoeny: this has lower prio at this time [9:29pm] PeterThoeny: first i want to finish some proposals in work [9:29pm] starshine: TopicDisplayName only talks about window dressing a name, but implies aliases that could lead to one page, that's a different idea entirely [9:29pm] PeterThoeny: i have still some follow-up to do on MoveChangeFormFromEditToMoreScreen [9:30pm] PeterThoeny: yes, aliases and redirects are other animals [9:30pm] PeterThoeny: this is for a nice looking topic name [9:31pm] PeterThoeny: shown in browser title, recent changes, rss feeds etc [9:31pm] PeterThoeny: (InsteadOfTheGeekyBumpyWord) [9:31pm] starshine: nod [9:31pm] PeterThoeny: any other / new features you'd like to discuss? [9:32pm] PeterThoeny: time check: +32 min, e.g. +28 min to go [9:32pm] PeterThoeny: well, here is something [9:33pm] PeterThoeny: not really a core feature but a new plugin: [9:33pm] PeterThoeny: antti from finland, a new plugin contributor just posted his first plugin: [9:33pm] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Plugins/MessageSequenceChartPlugin [9:34pm] PeterThoeny: useful for technical documentation [9:34pm] starshine: this does look tasty [9:34pm] PeterThoeny: may be for your team starshine [9:35pm] starshine: we mostly attach small pics from visio... [9:35pm] PeterThoeny: it is easier to create/maintain if you do not need to leave twiki [9:36pm] PeterThoeny: however, with visio you have more flexibility [9:36pm] PeterThoeny: let's move on [9:36pm] PeterThoeny: ---++ 2. Review Urgent and Not So Urgent Bugs [9:36pm] PeterThoeny: release blockers: [9:36pm] PeterThoeny: http://develop.twiki.org/~twiki4/cgi-bin/view/Bugs/ReleaseBlocker [9:36pm] PeterThoeny: they are all quite old [9:37pm] PeterThoeny: and survivable (unless it affects you) [9:37pm] PeterThoeny: we can skip unless you'd like to pick one or two to discuss [9:37pm] starshine: 6328 almost sounds like a feature.. [9:38pm] starshine: unless most af a team leaves and the wiki champion was one of them. [9:38pm] PeterThoeny: true [9:38pm] PeterThoeny: i like to highlight http://develop.twiki.org/~twiki4/cgi-bin/view/Bugs/Item6844 [9:38pm] starshine: does 5926 affect other non-roman alphabets? [9:38pm] PeterThoeny: i did a small fix or enhancement depending on your pov [9:39pm] PeterThoeny: i have not looked into Item 5926 so i can't say [9:40pm] PeterThoeny: on Item6844, the new spec is that all topics from the template web are copied, regardless if based on regular web or _webWithUnderscore [9:41pm] PeterThoeny: this is a usability thing I think [9:41pm] PeterThoeny: we got a request to be able to duplicate and existing web used for projects [9:41pm] PeterThoeny: this was not possible on the gui [9:41pm] PeterThoeny: now it is [9:41pm] starshine: is it easier to delete unwanted templates, or easier to drag across wanted templates one at a time..? [9:42pm] starshine: am reading into 5926 & 5437 trying to figure out if they're really the same bug under the hood. [9:42pm] PeterThoeny: http://develop.twiki.org/~twiki4/cgi-bin/view/Bugs/Item6838: Add Perl logo next to TWiki logo at bottom of page [9:43pm] PeterThoeny: starshine:  yes, they can very well be [9:43pm] PeterThoeny: the perl logo is an interesting one [9:43pm] starshine: (for the record other wikis have utf8 problems too.  confluence has a complete tizz.) [9:43pm] PeterThoeny: as you know it is hard to find good perl programmers nowadays [9:44pm] PeterThoeny: by actively supporting perl we can help to make a difference [9:44pm] PeterThoeny: also all 100,000 pages on twiki.org have the perl logo with link now [9:44pm] PeterThoeny: that is all i have on bugs [9:44pm] PeterThoeny: anything else on bugs? [9:46pm] starshine: lost features when switching wysiwyg to raw mode or back is why we standardized on raw [9:46pm] starshine: if wysiwyg was trustworthy more would use the wiki. [9:46pm] himazu: agreed [9:47pm] starshine: this is a subset of "tinymce needs update" [9:48pm] starshine: it should be a subtask, not separate. [9:49pm] starshine: 5437 bottom notes reveal it is also a subset of "tinymce needs update" [9:49pm] PeterThoeny: yep [9:49pm] PeterThoeny: ---++ 3. Miscellaneous [9:50pm] PeterThoeny: this is free form [9:50pm] starshine: I am not sure of my code-fu on it, but I am willing to investigate if other tinymce users have met and defeated the same complaint (utf8) [9:51pm] PeterThoeny: starshine:  thanks, any help in making twiki more accessible (feature wise and different region wise) is appreciated! [9:51pm] PeterThoeny: EnriqueCadalso:  anything interesting you are up to recently? [9:51pm] starshine: with enough eyes all bugs are shallow [9:51pm] EnriqueCadalso: Well I just remembered it was specially anoying when a user edits a WebPreference topic and the WYSIWYG destroys the content affecting the whole web. I used to disable WYSIWYG in preference topics to avoid that situation. [9:52pm] PeterThoeny: true open source spirit! [9:52pm] EnriqueCadalso: That could be a default for preference topics. [9:52pm] PeterThoeny: EnriqueCadalso:  good point, may be all pref topics should have a Set LOCAL to disable wysiwyg [9:52pm] starshine: if we could reliably force all users to not use wysiwyg unless UserPreferences stomped their feet really hard, it would be used at our site [9:52pm] EnriqueCadalso: anyway no much formatting there [9:53pm] starshine: currently we force it per-page. [9:53pm] PeterThoeny: feel free to grab this task [9:54pm] EnriqueCadalso: Ok, as I am not quite a developer I believe that could be an easy one. [9:55pm]  MichaelGulitz joined the chat room. [9:55pm] PeterThoeny: hi MichaelGulitz! [9:55pm] PeterThoeny: sorry i missed looking in #twiki if someone showed up [9:56pm] starshine: PeterThoeny:  when is the next release meeting?  I can try to gather all news about tinymce forks or improvements people have scrounged. [9:56pm] PeterThoeny: we finsihed the formal part of the meeting and are now in the free form "miscellaneous" part [9:56pm] PeterThoeny: release meetings are every two weeks [9:57pm] PeterThoeny: subscribe to the [twiki-dev] mailing list to see invites [9:57pm] starshine: yeah I'm on that I was just checking to avoid conflict [9:57pm] starshine: I speak at BayLISA on SSL next week [9:57pm] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/TWikiDevMailingList - [twiki-dev] info [9:58pm] PeterThoeny: ah cool [9:59pm] PeterThoeny: i'd like to give homework to all for next time: [9:59pm] PeterThoeny: think ways to attract more developers, e.g. grow our dev community [9:59pm] PeterThoeny: we can discuss next time [9:59pm] MichaelGulitz: can I add an Idea to the PointAndClickAccessControl? [10:00pm] PeterThoeny: sure, please go ahead! [10:00pm] PeterThoeny: time check: +60 min [10:00pm] MichaelGulitz: it would be nic to be able to pass the permission changes to child topics [10:00pm] PeterThoeny: e.g. end of meeting, but we can chat a little more if you wish [10:01pm] PeterThoeny: yes, that feature has been requested a number of times [10:01pm] starshine: inherited access controls would make subpages feel like mini webs [10:01pm] PeterThoeny: i think that is a new feature detached from point&click access control [10:01pm] starshine: that could be very popular if presented well [10:02pm] starshine: it also resembles windows "access" on files/directories so I think non techie users could enjoy it [10:03pm] PeterThoeny: MichaelGulitz:  i suggest you post a feature request on that [10:03pm] MichaelGulitz: ok I'll do that [10:03pm] starshine: ...I think it could be very UN popular if implementation defied what a user might expect [10:03pm] PeterThoeny: btw an idea i am toying around with is to create a non-profit twiki foundation [10:04pm] starshine: so picture might help [10:04pm] PeterThoeny: we can discuss the foundation idea another time [10:04pm] starshine: oh? like to host twikis for nonprofit purposes? or..? [10:04pm] starshine: nod [10:04pm] PeterThoeny: but please contact me if you feel passionate about, or if you have experience in this [10:04pm] starshine: I have some experience with nonprofit establishing, actually. [10:05pm] PeterThoeny: no, not for hosting [10:05pm] starshine: hee. [10:05pm] PeterThoeny: but to manage the open source project in a more formal way [10:05pm] starshine: ok. [10:05pm] PeterThoeny: so that we possibly can accept contributions by companies [10:05pm] starshine: yeah, more detail, another time, maybe over paper/wiki/whiteboard. [10:06pm] PeterThoeny: and /beer [10:06pm] starshine: \o/ [10:06pm] PeterThoeny:  | [10:06pm] PeterThoeny:  / \ [10:07pm] PeterThoeny: ok, anything else before we close? [10:07pm] MichaelGulitz: no, next time I will go to the right channel [10:07pm] starshine: I try to nom only one big burger at a time [10:08pm] starshine: you added beer, so I'm full [10:08pm] PeterThoeny: ok, i'll post the minutes and the log [10:08pm] PeterThoeny: thanks all for participating today!! [10:09pm] PeterThoeny: ttyl [10:09pm]  himazu left the chat room. (Quit: Leaving) [10:10pm] MichaelGulitz: bye [10:10pm] EnriqueCadalso: bye [10:10pm] starshine: bye everyone! [10:10pm]  EnriqueCadalso left the chat room. [10:11pm]  MichaelGulitz left the chat room. (Quit: Verlassend) [10:12pm]  starshine left the chat room.