Date: September 14, 2009 11:27:08 AM PDT
Subject: HelsinkiMeetingLog2009x09x14.txt

[10:03am] SopanShewale:Good Morning Peter
[10:03am]  PeterJones joined the chat room.
[10:03am] peterthoeny:hi alex, klaus, steve, sopan, viwen, peter!
[10:03am] PeterJones:Hi All
[10:03am] alexbernegger:Hi pete and Peter
[10:03am]  You changed the topic to
"http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/HelsinkiReleaseMeeting2009x04x06".
[10:03am] peterthoeny:brb
[10:03am] Mowgli:Hi
[10:03am] viwen:hello
[10:04am]  ko6yq-lt joined the chat room.
[10:05am] peterthoeny:hi ko6yq-lt
[10:05am] ko6yq-lt:hello
[10:06am] peterthoeny:we have some new folks today, welcome!
[10:06am] alexbernegger:thank you
[10:06am] peterthoeny:since we have new folks, please give a one sentence intro: name, what org,
what you use twiki for
[10:07am] •smokris thanks!
[10:08am] PeterJones:PeterJones from CERN. We just upgraded to 4.3.1. We have SSO authentication
and lots of users.
[10:08am] alexbernegger:alex bernegger, tecnical student Cern - IT DES, support pete and nils with
our twiki installation, writing plugins
[10:08am] peterthoeny:oops, i posted wrong topic
[10:08am] peterthoeny:here we go:
[10:08am]  You changed the topic to
"http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/HelsinkiReleaseMeeting2009x09x14".
[10:08am] •smokris Steve Mokris / Kosada Inc and Ohio University staff / consultant
[10:09am] SopanShewale:Sopan Shewale, Twiki, Helping PeterT
[10:09am] viwen:viwen. a China it company. use twiki recently
[10:10am]  pnixon joined the chat room.
[10:11am] peterthoeny:hi peter nixon! welcome to the meeting
[10:12am] peterthoeny:good turnout today
[10:12am] alexbernegger:many peter here today
[10:12am] peterthoeny:peter nixon and ko6yq-lt, could you please give a one sentence intro: name,
what org, what you use twiki for?
[10:12am] Mowgli:Klaus Ethgen, ETH Zürich, We use TWiki for our web site incompatible encoding
[10:12am] pnixon:hi peter, thought I'd "listen in".  also on a conf call
[10:12am] peterthoeny:pnixon: understood, thanks for stopping by
[10:13am] peterthoeny:eth = swiss federal institute of technology (where i studied)
[10:13am] •ko6yq-lt is Ian Kluft, have been using TWiki at work and volunteer projects since
2001, currently doing some contract work for TWiki
[10:13am] pnixon:Name: Pete Nixon, Sun Microsystems, using TWiki for all Sun Microelectronics Wiki.
[10:15am] peterthoeny:milind pansare will join us a bit later, he is on the phone next to me
[10:15am] pnixon:Also contributed some core code to TWiki a while back, and have been writing some
add-ons for Sun (still in "hack" stage)
[10:16am] peterthoeny:Name: Peter Thoeny, Twiki inc, started twiki 11 years ago, constantly amazed
in how many different ways twiki is used!
[10:16am] PeterJones:Nice meeting you all
[10:16am] peterthoeny:likewise, nice meeting all
[10:16am] peterthoeny:lets start
[10:16am] peterthoeny:propose agenda:
[10:17am] peterthoeny:# 1. Feature requests for Helsinki Release
[10:17am] peterthoeny:# 2. Review Urgent Bugs
[10:17am] peterthoeny:# 3. Review Redesigned Download Page
[10:17am] peterthoeny:# 4. Miscellaneous
[10:17am] peterthoeny:anything to add?
[10:17am] peterthoeny:if not, first agenda item
[10:18am] peterthoeny:---++ 1. Feature requests for Helsinki Release
[10:18am] PeterJones:I have a small issue for 4.
[10:18am] PeterJones:I will wait until its time for 4.
[10:18am] peterthoeny:sopan release 4.3.2 last week, so we are ready to work on new features
[10:18am]  SopanShewale_sos joined the chat room.
[10:19am] peterthoeny:http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/TWikiFeatureProposals
[10:19am] peterthoeny:SopanShewale, SopanShewale_sos: anything you would lik eto highlight?
[10:20am] peterthoeny:anyone else, comments on features listed, new features you have in mind?
[10:20am] SopanShewale_sos:we have already incorporated "CSRF Fix for TWiki " in last release
[10:21am] SopanShewale_sos:i am working on http://www.twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/SessionManagement
, its in a very primary stage
[10:21am] peterthoeny:yes, a few feature proposal topics need to be updated
[10:21am] SopanShewale_sos:its still listed as new in the above topic
[10:21am] peterthoeny:sopan created a comprehensive csrf fix
[10:21am] peterthoeny:what i like about it, it is configurable
[10:22am] peterthoeny:e.g. you can turn crypt token on and off
[10:22am] peterthoeny:if on, you can use a submit form that calls the save script only once
[10:22am] peterthoeny:so there is a tradeoff between security and usability
[10:23am] peterthoeny:we have many features accepted and ready to be implemented
[10:23am] SopanShewale_sos:ok.. One more proposal i am working on - thats
http://www.twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/AddSkinDirToTemplatePath
[10:23am] peterthoeny:if inclined, please help implement some of those features
[10:24am] SopanShewale_sos:with the current TWiki, all skins/thems templates go in the same 
directory..more number of skins means more template files..
[10:25am] pnixon:I like this.  Less work to create new skins based on another one.
[10:25am] SopanShewale_sos:end of my message
[10:25am] SopanShewale_sos:yes
[10:26am] peterthoeny:personally i am interested in DontExposeTWikiRootAsHtmlDocRoot, which is a
small change
[10:26am] peterthoeny:yes, AddSkinDirToTemplatePath makes sense
[10:27am] peterthoeny:i am now scanning over "parked feature proposals"
[10:27am] PeterJones:The clone implementation was popular but i could not get the attachments
to clone. Anyone looked at this
[10:29am] peterthoeny:PeterJones: yes, topic clone should inherit attachments (i consider the
current behavior a bug: clone topic copies attachment meta data, but not attachment itself, e.g.
you get a broken attachment table)
[10:29am] SopanShewale_sos:reading clone topic
[10:30am] peterthoeny:same behavior when you have a form to create a new page based on a template:
if the template page has an attachment you only get the attachment meta data
[10:31am] SopanShewale_sos:ok.. sounds interesting...
[10:32am] Mowgli:Hmm... for the Skin to get a bit more customicible, it should also a bit more
modular. At the moment, every and every think has to be done again and again.
[10:33am] Mowgli:That was a big drawback when I did our Skin.
[10:34am] peterthoeny:bigger items i think would help move twiki forward: database backend; full
utf-8 support; wsiwyg editor supporting plugins (such as spreadsheet formula wizard, chart wizard);
solid sectional edit; point and click admin of users, groups, permissions; easy ways to build
& exchange applications & component
[10:35am] SopanShewale_sos:agree... we have so many CSS files delivered to the browser..
[10:35am] peterthoeny:time check: +35 min
[10:35am] peterthoeny:helsinki release focus is listed at 
http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/HelsinkiRelease
[10:35am] pnixon:Skin simplification is huge.  Anyone use YSlow on TWiki.org?
[10:36am] peterthoeny:what is yslow?
[10:36am] SopanShewale_sos:yes.. i tried using
[10:36am] peterthoeny:i agree, skin simplification is important, comes up many times
[10:36am] Mowgli:I think that the current backend is very stable. A database backend would be nice
for some usecases but not for all.
[10:37am] pnixon:It's a firefox plugin that "grades" your web site.  Our internal sites were
getting "D+" until I revamped our skins.  There's a lot of JS and CSS to fix up.
[10:37am] Mowgli:The rest I agree.
[10:37am] SopanShewale_sos:the report is not that great.. we should be doing that execersise at
least once.. Steve Souders has done great work by producing Yslpw
[10:37am] SopanShewale_sos:the report is not that great.. we should be doing that execersise at
least once.. Steve Souders has done great work by producing Yslow
[10:37am] peterthoeny:http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/SimplifySkinCreation
[10:37am] PeterJones:In your opinion can a Db backend scale to 1000s of topics per web better than
flat directory
[10:38am]  SopanShewale left the chat room. (Read error: 105 (No buffer space available))
[10:38am]  SopanShewale_sos is now known as SopanShewale.
[10:38am] Mowgli:Hmm.. That sounds reasonable
[10:39am] peterthoeny:yes, purpose of db backend is scalability
[10:39am] SopanShewale:Sounds like - We should brainstorm more on those 14 rules suggested by
Souders while working on Skin Architecture.. improvements of skin
[10:39am] peterthoeny:for 95% of deployments the current storage backend is just fine
[10:40am] peterthoeny:but deployments PeterJones and other have would benefit from db backend
[10:40am] peterthoeny:at twiki inc we are now looking for a sponsor to add a db backend
[10:40am] peterthoeny:this is a bigger item
[10:41am] peterthoeny:time check: +41 min
[10:41am] peterthoeny:shall we move to next agenda item?
[10:41am] SopanShewale:yes
[10:41am] peterthoeny:---++ 2. Review Urgent Bugs
[10:42am] peterthoeny:we just released 4.3.2, and we are in relatively good shape
[10:42am] peterthoeny:http://develop.twiki.org/~twiki4/cgi-bin/view/Bugs/ReleaseBlocker
[10:42am] SopanShewale:On Bugs.. i am yet to change the status of bugs fixed recently for
4.3.2 release, i should be doing that this week
[10:42am] peterthoeny:sopan, anything you would like to highlight?
[10:43am] SopanShewale:right now, i don't have anything to talk.. looking forward to review
blockers and newly raised bugs this week
[10:44am] peterthoeny:one bug item we should fix for next patch release: package the tgz files not
in top directory
[10:45am] SopanShewale:ah yes
[10:45am]  milindpansare joined the chat room.
[10:45am] peterthoeny:hi milind!
[10:45am] milindpansare:hi peter.
[10:46am] Mowgli:PeterJones: That would be really nice.
[10:46am] peterthoeny:we have new/returning folks today, could you please give a one sentence
intro: name, what org, what you do with twiki?
[10:46am] Mowgli:Ups, meinte peterthoeny
[10:47am] peterthoeny:on 4.3.2 release, we have two pending items: upgrade package and announce
[10:47am] SopanShewale:i have some more items - like packaging kinosearch engine, tinyMCE release
[10:47am] Mowgli:My irc-client did wrong autocomplete.
[10:47am] SopanShewale:yes
[10:47am] peterthoeny:sopan will drive upgrade package, milind and i will drive anounce
[10:47am] peterthoeny:announce is partially done
[10:48am] peterthoeny:anything else on bug fixes and release?
[10:49am] SopanShewale:thats all from my side
[10:51am] peterthoeny:---++ 3. Review Redesigned Download Page
[10:51am] milindpansare:Hi, for those of you who don't know me, a brief intro..
[10:51am] peterthoeny:milind proposed this 4 weeks ago
[10:51am] milindpansare:I am the VP of Marketing at Twiki, Inc.
[10:52am] milindpansare:Background: 18 years at Sun, 2years at HP, 2years at startups,
[10:53am] peterthoeny:draft download page is at
http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/RedesignedDownloadPage2009
[10:54am] peterthoeny:please review that draft and provide feedback
[10:54am] milindpansare:We discussed this a little bit last couple meetings, and thanks for
the feedback PeterJones
[10:55am] peterthoeny:i copied the notes from the mid august release meeting to the top
[10:56am] milindpansare:I like the format, but we can probably tighten up the wording a little bit
to make it more concise and precise.
[10:58am] pnixon:I think the table at the top of #DownloadTWiki could be redundant (it also doesn't
line up with the "Download TWiki 4.3 bubble on the right sidebar)
[10:58am] pnixon:my eyes get a little lost there when scanning the page
[10:59am] peterthoeny:my primary question is: i'd like to build up and nurture a vibrant twiki.org
community. does the redesigned download page support that, or does it make it harder to attract
contributors?
[11:00am] peterthoeny:or it does not matter?
[11:00am] pnixon:ducking out to another meeting (2:00pm EST)
[11:00am]  pnixon left the chat room.
[11:00am] peterthoeny:thanks peter nixon for stopping by
[11:01am] peterthoeny:any feedback?
[11:04am] Mowgli:Foks, I have to go too. But today I don't think I have that big points to tell.
[11:04am] Mowgli:+l
[11:04am] peterthoeny:thanks klaus for stopping by
[11:04am] Mowgli:cu
[11:05am]  Mowgli left the chat room. ("Grüßt mir die Sterne")
[11:05am] peterthoeny:so, can we call this 30 day proposal as accepted by release meeting?
[11:05am] SopanShewale:i think yes
[11:06am] milindpansare:Ian, why is your user name ko6yq-lt
[11:06am] peterthoeny:ok, it looks like we have agreement by consensus
[11:07am] peterthoeny:i think milind intends to do some changes (text, layout), but keep the
overall structure
[11:08am] milindpansare:OK, thanks, I have to duck out to another meeting but will start
implementing...
[11:08am] milindpansare:bye now.
[11:08am]  milindpansare left the chat room.
[11:08am] peterthoeny:time check: +68 min
[11:09am] peterthoeny:last agend item (if any):
[11:09am] peterthoeny:---++ 4. Miscellaneous
[11:09am] peterthoeny:anything?
[11:09am] SopanShewale:i guess no
[11:09am] peterthoeny:i have a quick comment on company name
[11:09am] peterthoeny:we have not announced yet, will be announced tomorrow tuesday:
[11:10am] peterthoeny:the company changes its name from twiki.net, inc to twiki, inc
[11:11am] peterthoeny:this change was initiated by our ceo jitendra kavathekar
[11:12am] peterthoeny:tomorrow, comany will roll out new website (on same twiki.net domain)
[11:12am] peterthoeny:so this is a little pre-announce to the community
[11:12am] peterthoeny:that is all on my side
[11:12am] peterthoeny:anything other items?
[11:13am] PeterJones:My issue can wait I will have to go now
[11:13am] alexbernegger:oh! i was waiting for that
[11:13am] peterthoeny:ok, thanks PeterJones for participating
[11:13am] alexbernegger:cu tomorrow pete!
[11:14am] peterthoeny:thanks all for joining the release meeting!
[11:14am] viwen:peterthoeny. I would send mail to you. about some questions.
[11:14am] peterthoeny:viwen, please do
[11:14am] viwen:thanks everyone
[11:14am] peterthoeny:bye all (and lets continue informal talk at #twiki
[11:15am] alexbernegger:good bye
[11:15am] viwen:bye
[11:15am]  alexbernegger left the chat room. ("Java user signed off")
[11:15am]  PeterJones left the chat room. ("Java user signed off")
[11:16am]  viwen left the chat room.
[11:16am]  ko6yq-lt left the chat room. ("Leaving.")