Session Start: Mon Mar 31 22:07:28 2008 Session Ident: #twiki_release [22:07] * Now talking in #twiki_release [22:07] * Topic is 'http://develop.twiki.org/~twiki4/cgi-bin/view/Bugs/ReleaseBlocker' [22:07] * Set by PeterThoeny on Mon Jan 07 22:13:25 [22:07] could someone change the message to http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/GeorgetownReleaseMeeting2008x03x31 [22:07] * SvenDowideit changes topic to ' http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/GeorgetownReleaseMeeting2008x03x31' [22:07] hi kwan [22:07] peasy :) [22:07] wow Sven_Dowideit, surprise surprise :) [22:08] hi peter :) [22:08] sick - not sleeping well - or something :) [22:08] SvenDowideit, must be the weather [22:08] Lavr: let us know when you are ready [22:08] yeah, its turned cold pretty fast [22:08] I am at the other computer now [22:08] who is taking notes, who is facilitating? [22:09] and I am on the notes [22:09] thanks kenneth [22:09] i can facilitate [22:09] proposed agenda: [22:09] # 0. Introduce Tom Barton, new Chairman and CEO of TWIKI.NET [22:09] # 1. Review Urgent Bugs with 4.2.1 scope [22:09] # 2. Feature requests for Georgetown Release [22:09] # 3. Decide on date for TWiki Summit in Berlin [22:09] anything to add to the agenda? [22:10] 4.2 t.o progress? [22:10] ok: #4: twiki.org server update [22:10] lets start [22:11] ---++ 0. Introduce Tom Barton, new Chairman and CEO of TWIKI.NET [22:11] tom barton joined this irc [22:11] please welcome him [22:11] welcome :) [22:11] be nice to tom, first time he is on irc :-) [22:11] hi Tom :) [22:11] Welcome Tom [22:11] Hi Tom! [22:11] Hi all :-) [22:11] * ColasNahaboo has left #twiki_release ("Client exiting") [22:11] * ColasNahaboo has joined #twiki_release [22:12] tom has lots of experience in open source, i am very excited to have him on board [22:12] Thx Peter - very happy to be here. [22:12] tom, instead of me talking, coiuld you introduce yourself? [22:12] certainly. I got to know about TWIKI approx 2-3 years ago - we used it extensively at my last company (Rackable Systems) [22:13] Then I got to know Peter and some of the folks at TWIKI.NET and came to believe that it was a great opportunity to have some fun and help out [22:13] The experience in open source that Peter is referring to is from my days at Cygnus Solutions (started in fall of 96) [22:14] and then at RedHat - Cygnus was acquired by RHAT in fall of 99 and I stayed through the first half of 2000 [22:14] I basically went to Cygnus because I fell in love with the concept of open source [22:15] I've spent a lot of time looking at open source companies (I looked at many when I was a VC for about 2 years prior to starting at Rackable Systems) [22:15] and I think that it is a very opportune time to look at collaboration generally and TWIKI more specifically [22:16] I actually don't like talking about myself too much but I'm happy to answer any questions or provide any more details about my background! [22:16] :-) [22:16] yes, lets make thsi a q&a [22:16] both ways [22:17] Hi Tom, I think your coming from the outside could be a good opportunity to help overcome some disagreement that plagued the TWiki community recently (Governace issues, relationship with sponsors, etc...) [22:18] Colas - thx - I certainly hope so [22:18] Also your early commitment to open source is very reassuring [22:18] When I was at Cygnus most people would say we had a very positive relationship between Cygnus, the GNU project, and the FSF [22:19] yes, your experience will surely be useful [22:19] I would say it is a bit more of an art than a science but I am very interested in hearing about the issues and proposed solutions (obviously Peter has filled me in on a lot of things) [22:19] great :) [22:20] Well, I guess you will have to have some fcae/visiophone time with the major contributors I gues (I am not one :-) [22:20] face/visio/phone [22:20] yes, please bring your thoughts and ideas to tom [22:21] Colas - I agree that some time with the major contributors will be important - I am happy to speak to you as well (everyone here says good things about you) [22:21] the email (if i read it right) suggested that you were a temporary addition to the team [22:22] can you clarify that a little? [22:22] Sven - my role as CEO is temporary. My role as Chairman of the Board and active board director is intended to be permanent [22:22] I never heard about a non-temporary CEO ;-) [22:22] aha, good :) [22:22] I agreed to act as Interim CEO indefinitely until a suitable full time replacement can be found [22:22] we weren't sure where the braces were :) [22:23] please provide feedback to tom also by e-mail, tom (at) twiki (dot) net [22:24] I tend to be pretty responsive by email and I'm happy to hear from everyone :-) [22:24] super-spam :) [22:24] hehe :) [22:24] seems with the snow, quite a few people are away for the week [22:24] thank you tom! [22:25] if no other discussions lets move to the next agenda item [22:25] thanks all! [22:25] :) [22:25] ---++ 1. Review Urgent Bugs with 4.2.1 scope [22:25] :) [22:25] time check: +25 min [22:26] tom, i know you have another meeting coming up, feel free to stick around / drop of anytime [22:26] release blockers are at http://develop.twiki.org/~twiki4/cgi-bin/view/Bugs/ReleaseBlocker [22:26] before we start on the bug walkthrough.. [22:26] Message from Crawford: He cannot be here because he is on his way to Scotland. [22:26] A clarification of the positive kind. Crawford's lack of bug fixing 2-4 weeks ago was due to a 70 hour per week workload on a project and not the reason that was given. He is working on Wysiwyg bug fixing as people may notice. [22:27] will that fix the paste from word inserting FONT tags? [22:27] Ha. That I cannot say. [22:27] thanks kenneth, this helps clarify things [22:27] now that's good news! (a virtual pint of scottish ale for Crawford!) [22:27] MartinCleaver, you can try it out at d.t.o [22:28] Crawford has done a great job so far [22:28] good point! Thanks [22:28] we have 17 release blockers [22:28] kenneth, do you want to pick some? look at all? [22:28] Another message from Crawford - please help providing feedback to many of the bugs where he requested it. [22:28] I want to pick some [22:29] I would suggest upgrading TinyMCE to 3.x, maybe it will kill some bugs in the process... [22:29] Item5375 is awaiting feedback from Arthur. He is snowboarding so if anyone else can help with feedback please do [22:29] on Item5485 I did so some minutes ago. [22:30] I'm not sure that upgrading tinymce qualifies as a patch release? at least not without lots more testing [22:30] Item5393 is one that I think may be fixed by upgrading TMCE but doing that upgrade is a huge task that would require more than two hands [22:30] Sven_Dowideit: sorry, yes it is for after 4.2.1 [22:30] Sven I think you are right. [22:30] http://develop.twiki.org/~twiki4/cgi-bin/view/Bugs/Item5393 [22:30] (hi) [22:31] Hi Koen [22:31] On 5393 I have suggested a hack [22:31] hi koen [22:31] hey koen [22:31] feedback to my proposal welcome - it can cause harm if my assumptions are wrong [22:31] Hi Koen [22:32] http://develop.twiki.org/~twiki4/cgi-bin/view/Bugs/Item5485 - can any one confirm? Please try and feedback on bug item [22:32] Crawford is on it but needs feedback [22:32] "And it seems the newer TMCE does not do this" ... does this not imply that it will have to wait fro migrating to 3.x? [22:32] since there will be an upgrade of tmce, the hack sounds good. :) [22:32] (i will be here but not really here, the time is inconvenient: i'm usually death tired by 22:00 PM...) [22:33] no, it doesn't. It gets rid of some, but leaves %BLACK% and %ENDCOLOR% in it [22:33] http://develop.twiki.org/~twiki4/cgi-bin/view/Bugs/Item5437 - I uploaded the patch that Peter could not upload two weeks ago. [22:33] Peter - do you know why the reporter posted this on his blog and not on d.t.o? [22:34] the patch for 5437 was done by someone not active in teh community [22:34] e.g. needs some testing [22:35] I just wonder why he posted it on his blog only?? [22:35] think he wanted to install twiki, run into some troubles and did what he is used to do: write a blog post [22:35] its those foreign letter using people that cause all the trouble [22:35] naturally, filing a bug report upsteam would be more useful [22:35] SvenDowideit, oh plesae... [22:36] Did you email with him Peter? [22:36] :} [22:36] o [22:36] no [22:36] OK. Maybe I will. [22:36] next [22:36] http://develop.twiki.org/~twiki4/cgi-bin/view/Bugs/Item5345 - I think Sven could use someone to reproduce and provide a step by step + the config [22:36] have we managed to reel him in? [22:36] right Sven? [22:36] discovered blog post with patch by following some links [22:36] I do not strike me as odd. For people used to blog only poosting on one own site is the natural way to post [22:36] yes, i need a cfg & steps to reproduce [22:37] ... this explains the mess that is the wordpress community :-) [22:37] * ktwilight thinks twiki.xxx should reel him in as a twiki dev [22:37] So all please assist Sven with 5345 [22:37] http://develop.twiki.org/~twiki4/cgi-bin/view/Bugs/Item5487 is probably a red hering. [22:37] I need to verify but I am 99% sure the problem was old Javascript in my browser cache [22:38] ah, plausible cause [22:38] http://develop.twiki.org/~twiki4/cgi-bin/view/Bugs/Item5447 - Sven your last word was ouch :-) Is this one yours to fix? [22:39] atm no [22:39] i'm not really sure what we should do [22:39] i presume manage was set to be authed for a reason [22:39] and i don't want to just unset it as a knee-jercker [22:41] though i have an idea :) [22:41] let's hear it [22:41] externalising the passwd stuff from bin/manage to bin/passwd? [22:41] nope :) [22:42] but that would be possible, too?! [22:42] ;-) [22:42] make manage test for authness when it is needed [22:42] on a related note: if your wiki is auth-only, you can't reset the password because the form is in the wiki [22:42] and otherwise have it be ok with un-authness [22:42] gmc yup [22:42] ah, the manage with manageauth approach? [22:42] even worse if you use apache auth [22:42] how would you test for authness? [22:42] same way view does [22:43] With ApacheLogin we have [22:44] the other more sensible option [22:44] good approach [22:44] is to use the twiki cgi script approach [22:44] couldnt we just require auth for the ChangePAssword topic? [22:45] time check: +45 min [22:45] ColasNahaboo, if thats the _only_ reason for stopping cgi-bin attacks [22:45] colas: no, anyone could create a form in another topic [22:45] locking the topic does not prevent changes [22:45] * AndreU has joined #twiki_release [22:45] hi andre! [22:46] I mean, it would ensure a first auth beforehand [22:46] Hi Andre [22:46] we are in the middle of release blocker review [22:46] hi, sorry my clock was set wron [22:46] ouch [22:46] then manage could stille require auth, no problem? [22:46] we could also make reset like sudo [22:46] wouldn't DENYTOPICCHANGE do? [22:47] ie, off the tmpl login script [22:47] that has an added benifit [22:47] uh, nevermind me, not thinking right :) [22:47] that it becomes more tied to the usermapper [22:47] the user portions of the manage script still need reactoring to move them into the mappers anyway [22:48] in the interest of time lets move on, we know the problem that needs to be solved [22:48] usermapper way is a good way forward. [22:48] externalising the passwd stuff ^^ ;) [22:48] So I did not get - Sven are you the owner or does someone else need to step in? [22:48] yup [22:48] either way [22:49] come on SvenDowideit! you know you want it! [22:49] i can't be owner to the exclusion of others, i simply don't have the time to commit [22:49] on http://develop.twiki.org/~twiki4/cgi-bin/view/Bugs/Item4863 [22:49] i suggest to lower prio to normal [22:49] most of the bugs i have fixed / found are related to other work i'm v busy on [22:50] that is "Item4863: RcsWrap does not support RcsDirs" [22:50] lets remove it [22:50] i'd remove the setting from the spec file [22:50] dump +1 [22:51] +1 [22:51] 4863: The result of the "feature request" to cancel is that noone will need it and that it never worked. [22:51] else people will continue to try it [22:51] For 4.2.1 the action is to undocument it which I will do. [22:51] yes, right approach [22:51] and remove the setting from configure [22:51] (which means checking for its use and disable it in the code - I can do that also) [22:52] time check: +50 min [22:52] http://develop.twiki.org/~twiki4/cgi-bin/view/Bugs/Item5425. I think this should be lowered to Normal. [22:52] any other blockers to review? [22:52] It is rare that you rename a View template. [22:52] * TomBarton has left #twiki_release [22:52] agreed on 5425 [22:52] i think its a useful fix [22:52] ...and if you do so, you know, what you are doing. :) [22:52] if it can be worked out [22:53] what i'd like to know [22:53] is its releationship to Item4463 [22:53] Not sure they are related. I think in general we have the case that renaming does not rename inside META [22:54] nono [22:54] ignore the rename part [22:54] if you have a VIEW_TEMPLATE set to somethign that does not exist [22:54] My feeeling is that it is not blocker. and fix strategy #2 seems sensible [22:54] _that_ is the bug that worries me [22:54] any more release blocker items to cover? [22:54] and that is what i think is releated to 4463 [22:54] One more. [22:55] and _that_ is what i think is urgent [22:55] Ah in reality it is 4463 that is the urgent one? [22:56] not necessarily [22:56] In my opinion, given TWiki entreprise focus, one of the biggest "bug" now is problems with LDAP support... [22:56] the side effect of 5425 is the urgent thing [22:56] ColasNahaboo, ldap works [22:56] because 5425 in my view is about the fact that renaming does not change the topic name if it is in the settings [22:56] ie meta [22:56] no, the rename is a minor thing in 5425 [22:56] Sven_Dowideit: well, you get ldap or TWikiGroups, not both [22:56] the _real_ big bug is that if you don't have the VIEW_TEMPLATE topic, you have killed twiki [22:57] proposed fix of 4463 seems sensible, but needs to be tested well [22:57] ah, send money to micha :) [22:57] he also has his hands full of paid work [22:57] The last bug I want to mention is http://develop.twiki.org/~twiki4/cgi-bin/view/Bugs/Item5118 [22:58] Difference from 4.1.2 - 4.2: Apache loginname no longer works with access control lists [22:58] It was deferred from 4.2.0 - it has to be resolved in 4.2.1 [22:58] needs someone to have mucho time i think [22:58] probly the most relevant would be someone that actually uses that [22:59] ah, that is the login name in groups thingy [22:59] iirc, the biggest trouble is that making it work will slow down twiki [22:59] yes, this happens in a corporate setting [23:01] The problem is that a person given access to a topic - using login because he was not registered - looses access the minute he registers. [23:01] sven do you have time to look at 5118? [23:01] and I'm migrating everything away from topic based mappings [23:01] no, i don't have time to commit to it atm [23:01] I'm busy moving stuff like that to dbs [23:01] and to ldap when that happens [23:02] that means for the community to decide if to defer this to after 4.2.1, or that someone else picks it up [23:02] will someone else step up. I will not release 4.2.1 without this serious bug fixed. [23:02] sry, no time [23:02] This worked in Cairo, in 4.0, in 4.1 and broke in 4.2 [23:03] yup, mostly for docco and speed reasons [23:03] no ressources now (must try to find a ldap fix first ) [23:03] i didn't find anything that suggested it was supposed to work, so i removed a big set of lookups [23:04] PeterThoeny, perhaps you can find one of the corps that uses it [23:04] and get them interested in helping themselves [23:04] cos none of the corps i have touch with do it [23:04] i agree with kenneth that this is a blocker of 4.2.1 [23:04] we need to somehow get these users/corps/orgs to contribute for their own sake. [23:05] oh god, the people have come to re-do all the guttering today [23:05] never know i may lose net [23:06] can we set a tentative release date for 4.2.1? [23:06] obviously not [23:06] we said before "and of march" e.g. today [23:06] as both you and Lavr have states that you won't release without something that no-one has time to work on [23:06] a/and/end/ [23:07] When do you have the time Sven? This has been open since December. [23:07] when i have enough money to pay for food & cope with my mortgauge [23:08] who else knows this part of the code? [23:08] hire some indians, they'll get it done in no time! [23:09] Maybe we should just revert the whole user mapping code back to 4.1.2 state then. [23:09] if you feel like that, you could just use 4.1.2 [23:10] but i think you for your support [23:10] oh my, please dont. that'd be such a bad decision. [23:10] ok, lets move on, problem is recognized [23:10] ---++ 2. Feature requests for Georgetown Release [23:10] hey, you missed one [23:11] the utf8 unit test [23:11] i (sadly) propose to disable that unit test [23:11] Crawford thought is is a real bug. [23:11] reason? [23:11] so that the 4.2.1 nightly builds can finally build a test release [23:11] it _is_ a real bug [23:11] But we can still disable the test until fixed. [23:12] the reason is simply that until someone does come to work on utf8 [23:12] it blocks further builds [23:12] fair enough [23:12] meaning that we don't get any test tgz's for users to play with [23:13] test tgz's are important, if disabling the test temporarily is needed for that i am for disabling [23:14] No objection from me. [23:14] ok, will do - georgy time :) [23:14] now on to: [23:14] ---++ 2. Feature requests for Georgetown Release [23:15] kenneth? [23:15] The only one I wanted to discuss was already covered. the ,v files in sub dirs [23:15] (brb in 1 min) [23:15] time check: +75 min [23:15] I would put TinyMCE 3.x here, and anything that helps performance [23:16] There are two that I put ready but they are both Arthurs and he is snowboarding. [23:17] before you raise the proposal Colas perhaps you should just try the TMCE upgrade and see what breaks [23:18] I surely will - after making ldap work :-) [23:19] ok, so no other features to discuss [23:19] ---++ 3. Decide on date for TWiki Summit in Berlin [23:19] Nope. [23:19] i suggest moving it...... [23:19] I could not get a confirmation. My contact has been out all week. Will try again tomorrow. For the moment I assume the first week in September date [23:19] http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/TWikiCommunitySummitBerlin2008Q3 [23:19] to Sydney :} [23:20] Result of vote: [23:20] 2008-08-14/15 : 5 [23:20] 2008-08-21/22 : 7 [23:20] 2008-08-28/29 : 8 [23:20] 2008-09-04/05 : 10 [23:20] we would need to rename the topic name. ;) [23:20] oh damn, OliverKrueger you're right [23:20] bad for SEO [23:20] Yes. So I will try my best to get the 4-5 Sep [23:20] SEO? [23:21] 'd say lets decide now, and look for venu later [23:21] google etc. [23:21] oic seo... :) [23:21] kenneth: we can look for another venue in case your's does not work out [23:21] Right now what I am working on is 4-5 Sep at Motorola Berlin. And I think the chance it is OK is 90%. [23:22] agreed on keeping topic name as is [23:22] great! [23:22] :) [23:22] can we decide now officially that it is 4-5 sep? [23:22] it is only if we have a major major customer that wee I have to go for 28/29 Aug. [23:22] But 4-5 also suits ME best [23:23] last chance: any voice against 4-5 sep? [23:24] if not, decided for 4-5 sep [23:24] ---++ 4: twiki.org server update [23:24] will we stay with the 4-5 sep, if motorola is blocked? [23:24] OliverKrueger, yes [23:24] yes, we can look for another venue [23:24] ok [23:24] and i can ask twiki.net to sponsor some [23:24] some germans can help work it out :) [23:25] ze tchermans, zey are good at ze orkanizink [23:25] :-) [23:25] jepp, but motorola would be a great location [23:25] on twiki.org server [23:25] only the Preussen. [23:25] racks are now ready [23:25] hehehe, thank god thats where my dad's from :) [23:25] equipment will be installed this week [23:25] oh, sweet [23:25] cool [23:26] still waiting for 2 webservers that did not arrive yet [23:26] awesome [23:26] so we can fresh install 4.2.x and move topics over [23:26] pfft [23:26] e.g. start with nas and one webserver and a cisco ace load balancer [23:26] just one without NAS will kick the current ones butt [23:26] then add two more servers when we get them [23:26] what would probly help more, is distributed (geographically) servers for the pub files [23:27] ie, the skin things [23:27] and - wink wink - PublicCacheAddon :-) [23:27] no, thats so the wrong thing [23:27] it won't speed up any dynamic content [23:27] nor does it do personalised content [23:27] that's just adding stress to twiki [23:27] -ing [23:27] ie, its a krippled twiki [23:28] so ;p [23:28] maybe time to write a AmazonS3Plugin ;) [23:28] * OliverKrueger would not like PublicCacheAddon either. [23:28] ktwilight, yup [23:28] though i did have a simple proposal that would implement it without [23:28] all in the name of web2.0! [23:28] hehe, just thought about AS3 today for my backup. :) [23:28] SvenDowideit, let's hear it [23:29] there are cheaper ways [23:29] true [23:29] its in the bug system [23:29] short version is to have the pub url be settable to a seperate host [23:29] that can then be round robin (or geo) dns'd [23:30] SvenDowideit: Do you have an URI? [23:30] nope [23:30] in bugs [23:30] twas a bug i entered a long time ago [23:30] ok [23:30] patching for pub is a quick fix [23:30] just never had time [23:30] it needs some thought for syncing, and _testing_ [23:31] I would be interested in that. [23:31] me too :) [23:31] SvenDowideit: that would only work if you're not doing secure access to attachments though..? [23:31] thats the extra sauce [23:31] :-) [23:31] to distribute only the non-auth content [23:31] not hard to determine on upload [23:32] yes, a start could be only to serve attachments to Main & TWiki [23:32] um [23:32] only TWiki [23:32] Main user topics _can_ be secured by users [23:32] if you're using topic based users [23:32]