[08:52] *** Initial topic: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/FreetownReleaseMeeting2007x02x26 [08:52] *** #twiki_release: PeterThoeny MichaelDaum @WikiRingBot [08:52] *** #twiki_release was created on Mon Feb 26 06:05:44 2007. [11:42] *** MichaelDaum has left #twiki_release. [12:29] *** MichaelDaum has joined #twiki_release. [13:00] *** ArthurClemens has joined #twiki_release. [13:00] ArthurClemens: Hello there [13:01] MichaelDaum: Hi Arthur [13:01] PeterThoeny: hi arthur, hi micha! [13:02] ArthurClemens: somehow the Wikiringbot has a different icon in my irc client, with a red background [13:02] ArthurClemens: kind of develish :-) [13:02] MichaelDaum: it was the first on the channel so it is op [13:02] *** CDot has joined #twiki_release. [13:03] PeterThoeny: oh, we have a bot as op! [13:03] PeterThoeny: hi crawford [13:03] *** Lavr has joined #twiki_release. [13:03] CDot: excellent! we're wired! [13:03] CDot: morning, Peter! How did the talk go? [13:03] Lavr: Good evening. [13:03] *** Flenser has joined #twiki_release. [13:04] ArthurClemens: what talk? [13:04] PeterThoeny: i gave a 45 min talk at an online conference [13:04] PeterThoeny: organized by a mexian group [13:04] PeterThoeny: apparently quite popular [13:04] MichaelDaum: did you talk fast enuf so that the sim translators dropped out [13:04] PeterThoeny: with participants from around the world [13:05] PeterThoeny: simultanious transaltion to a few languages [13:05] PeterThoeny: yes, i tried to talk as fast as possible :-) [13:05] PeterThoeny: no, i took it slow and easy [13:05] PeterThoeny: with that i had to skip over many slides [13:05] PeterThoeny: nice online app btw [13:05] Lavr: t.o. has a 2 minute response time at the moment. Still have not been able to open the agenda [13:05] PeterThoeny: hi sam! [13:06] PeterThoeny: oh, t.o has loadavareage of 6 right now [13:06] PeterThoeny: was 8 a while ago [13:07] CDot: busy little mexicans..... [13:07] MichaelDaum: it has a few grep running and one wget [13:07] Flenser: hi everyone [13:07] Flenser: I'm not going to hang around [13:07] Lavr: Now at 3 minutes [13:08] MichaelDaum: t.o is slower on full ours regularly [13:08] PeterThoeny: i have a guest here looking over my shoulder [13:08] MichaelDaum: hi zapod [13:08] PeterThoeny: tomtansy, a friend of mine, who would like to learn how we operate the community [13:08] PeterThoeny: tom was driving the pr of the twiki 4.1 release [13:09] PeterThoeny: and we have one more person who will join in later: rod beckstrom [13:09] PeterThoeny: author of the book "the starfish and the spider" [13:09] Flenser: just wanted to pop in to appologise for not doing anything with Codev.PostDakarTrackingAndDiscussion, and to say that I don't think I'm going to be active with twiki any longer [13:09] PeterThoeny: a highly interesting book [13:10] ArthurClemens: what?? [13:10] CDot: welcome, lurkers! [13:10] PeterThoeny: oh, sam, bummer to hear that [13:10] PeterThoeny: but thank you very very much for all the support you gave so far! [13:11] PeterThoeny: +10 min, we have critical mass, shall we start? [13:11] PeterThoeny: who is on the minutes? [13:11] PeterThoeny: who is facilitating? [13:11] Lavr: t.o is totally dead now. I have not yet managed to load any page [13:11] ArthurClemens: bye Sam! See you sometime someplace... [13:11] PeterThoeny: let me check the logs by ip.... [13:12] *** Flenser has signed off IRC ("ttfn"). [13:12] PeterThoeny: got the culprit [13:13] PeterThoeny: one moment... [13:13] CDot: it would probably be sensible to duplicate the agenda on d.t.o as a backup [13:14] PeterThoeny: ok, ip address banned [13:14] PeterThoeny: should improve in a minute or so [13:15] *** StephaneLenclud has joined #twiki_release. [13:15] PeterThoeny: is it better now? [13:15] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/FreetownReleaseMeeting2007x02x26 [13:15] ArthurClemens: all together now... [13:16] Lavr: Still no luck [13:16] Lavr: It does not respond at all. [13:16] MichaelDaum: the rss feed caching cronjob is hitting too hard [13:16] PeterThoeny: micha: we have still about 9 speedy processes with > 200bm each [13:16] PeterThoeny: shall i kill them? [13:16] MichaelDaum: no [13:16] MichaelDaum: kill the wgets [13:16] MichaelDaum: each does a search [13:17] Lavr: You run speedy again? I have started seeing incomplete pages again. [13:17] PeterThoeny: i do not see wget processes [13:17] PeterThoeny: but many very large speedy processes [13:17] MichaelDaum: they finished [13:18] PeterThoeny: no, they still run [13:18] PeterThoeny: and are very large [13:18] MichaelDaum: if they are not used they will get swapped out [13:18] MichaelDaum: we have 11gig swap [13:18] PeterThoeny: 8 processes >280bm each [13:19] MichaelDaum: 11 are currently running [13:19] MichaelDaum: so it is not due to their size but because they are simply busy [13:19] PeterThoeny: twiki.org index.html takes 15 sec [13:19] MichaelDaum: twiki needs lots of memory, mostly due to creating user objects for all users on every click [13:20] MichaelDaum: this needs memory [13:20] PeterThoeny: and with large speedy processes it can baloon [13:20] PeterThoeny: does anyone see the minutes? [13:20] MichaelDaum: twiki needs the same amount of memory with and without speedy [13:20] PeterThoeny: it may take some time to load [13:21] PeterThoeny: micha: no, it needs way more memory with speedy [13:21] PeterThoeny: because a speedy process lives for some time [13:21] MichaelDaum: then this is a memory leak [13:21] MichaelDaum: okay [13:21] MichaelDaum: pages come at 21 seconds [13:21] Lavr: Finally I can see them. That took 15 minutes. [13:21] PeterThoeny: if one requests is a large page, it eats lots of memory for that one request, and that memory is not released immediately after the request [13:21] MichaelDaum: was 300+ before [13:22] PeterThoeny: multiply thta by 8 processes... [13:22] PeterThoeny: kenneth, are you ok with taking the minutes? [13:22] PeterThoeny: hi stephane! [13:22] PeterThoeny: we are having delay here due to twiki.org server problem [13:23] MichaelDaum: 8 seconds page response, get the minutes now or never ;) [13:23] Lavr: I will take the write the minutes tomorrow based on logs. [13:23] PeterThoeny: ok, thanks [13:23] PeterThoeny: shall i facilitate? [13:23] Lavr: Sure [13:23] PeterThoeny: ok [13:24] ArthurClemens: got the topic here as well [13:24] PeterThoeny: proposed agenda items: # 1. TWiki Release 4.1.2 Coordination # 2. Review Proposed Features [13:24] PeterThoeny: anything to add /change? [13:25] Lavr: Not from me [13:25] PeterThoeny: if not, lets start [13:25] PeterThoeny: ---+ 1. TWiki Release 4.1.2 Coordination [13:25] PeterThoeny: kenneth did amazing work in the last two weeks on perl 6.5.1 support [13:26] PeterThoeny: anyone, please give a big thumbs up to kenneth! [13:26] ArthurClemens: woohoo [13:26] PeterThoeny: so the primary issue for 4.1.2 release is done [13:26] Lavr: The current status of Patch04x01 is that it is stable. All unit tests pass (tested today) and the topic based tests passed 2 days ago. On both 5.6.1 and 5.8.5 [13:26] PeterThoeny: lets go through the pending items marked as urgent [13:27] PeterThoeny: with the goal to decide if items are urgent for 4.1.2 or not [13:27] PeterThoeny: Bugs:Item3567 - TablePlugin: css attributes priority of site/web preferences too agressive [13:27] ArthurClemens: michael [13:27] MichaelDaum: here [13:27] PeterThoeny: http://develop.twiki.org/~twiki4/cgi-bin/view/Bugs/Item3567 [13:28] PeterThoeny: micha can you comment on thsi item? [13:28] ArthurClemens: I think we got a misunderstanding of the issue [13:28] PeterThoeny: is this a blocker for 4.1.2? [13:29] MichaelDaum: for me it is as I will always have to work around the css inlined by the plugin [13:29] MichaelDaum: and I hope that there's a chance that we can fix this [13:29] ArthurClemens: As I see it its not so simple [13:29] PeterThoeny: i agree that we need to look into this and fix for easier maintainability [13:29] MichaelDaum: currently all html attrs of a twiki table is repeated as css [13:30] PeterThoeny: is this a blocker for 4.1.2 or not? [13:30] PeterThoeny: it was the same for all 4.0.x releases? [13:30] PeterThoeny: or new issue? [13:30] MichaelDaum: I havent looked at the code how difficult it is to implement [13:30] Lavr: TIMING wise we may have to release 4.1.2 this week. So 4.1.2 scope should be seen in that context [13:30] ArthurClemens: To be able to set the attributes (to let them have any effect) I needed to set some local css [13:31] ArthurClemens: hmm, Twisty might be a breaker [13:31] PeterThoeny: lets try to go through the urgent list quickly [13:31] MichaelDaum: okay ArthurClemens can we resolve this together for 4.1.2 or not? [13:31] PeterThoeny: main purpose is to triage if 4.1.2 blocker or not [13:31] ArthurClemens: I doubt that [13:32] MichaelDaum: Peter here's your answer [13:32] Lavr: non blocker does not mean not urgent. We can always release TablePlugin independent of Twiki releases. [13:32] ArthurClemens: I think you need to look at the code to see if you can hack it [13:32] PeterThoeny: my personal view is that 3567 is not a release blocker [13:32] MichaelDaum: okay then got ahead [13:32] PeterThoeny: other bugs that have been fixed are urgently waiting to be released [13:33] MichaelDaum: this bug is much less urgent than another we have to discuss [13:33] PeterThoeny: micha/arthur: are you ok with classifying this as a non-blocker? [13:33] MichaelDaum: will do [13:33] PeterThoeny: meaning, if you have time toi fix, great, if not , not too big deal [13:33] MichaelDaum: downgrading it to normal [13:33] PeterThoeny: ok, nice [13:33] PeterThoeny: next [13:33] PeterThoeny: Bugs:Item3652 - attachments to topic with umlauts in it are lost [13:34] MichaelDaum: yep [13:34] PeterThoeny: http://develop.twiki.org/~twiki4/cgi-bin/view/Bugs/Item3652 [13:34] MichaelDaum: that's the one [13:34] MichaelDaum: there _is_ a patch in the bug, it solves the problem _for me_ but I need some feedback from some utf8 guru [13:34] PeterThoeny: who made the last change on that bugs item? [13:34] Lavr: Two questions to answer: Does it work (important) and does it break anything else (more important). [13:35] PeterThoeny: ah, micha [13:35] MichaelDaum: it works and I patched the engine of a client of mine and he uses it in production [13:35] PeterThoeny: my take on this one: lets be careful with code changes that are unsure [13:35] MichaelDaum: but there are more constelations to consider [13:36] PeterThoeny: better to delay to next patch than to rush [13:36] *** Soronthar has joined #twiki_release. [13:36] MichaelDaum: the described effect is quite shocking actually: you attach and things are gone [13:36] PeterThoeny: MichaelDaum: if you consider this low risk we can take this into 4.1.2 [13:36] MichaelDaum: yes please [13:36] Lavr: Some facts. UTF8 seems to be not working well already and the code lines all have if $attachment && utf8::is_utf8($this->{attachment}); [13:37] PeterThoeny: hi rafael / Soronthar! [13:37] Soronthar: Hi all [13:37] Soronthar: Hi Peter [13:37] Lavr: So if the is_utf8 is working then at least non-utf8 sites should not be affected. [13:37] Lavr: Which means then the code is safe for non-utf8. [13:38] MichaelDaum: right [13:38] Lavr: is the if utf8::is_utf8 standard perl? [13:38] Lavr: Or an extra CPAN lib you have to install? [13:38] Lavr: And was it in 5.6.1? [13:39] PeterThoeny: good questions [13:39] PeterThoeny: in interest of time, can we take this offline? [13:39] MichaelDaum: sure [13:39] PeterThoeny: i suggest this: review how safe the change is, kenneth/micha to decide if in 4.1.2 or not [13:40] PeterThoeny: next [13:40] PeterThoeny: Bugs:Item3685 - Hidden mandatory form fields are no longer hidden in 4.1.1 http://develop.twiki.org/~twiki4/cgi-bin/view/Bugs/Item3685 [13:40] PeterThoeny: this looks like an easy fix [13:41] PeterThoeny: anyone inclined in looking at it? [13:41] Lavr: Is there something to fix? [13:41] PeterThoeny: also, is this a blocker? [13:41] ArthurClemens: yes [13:41] Lavr: First thing. does it currently work according to spec? [13:41] ArthurClemens: it breaks current settings [13:41] ArthurClemens: and it takes ages to figure out what is wrong [13:43] ArthurClemens: TWikiForms says: "Multiple attributes can be entered, separated by spaces" [13:43] Lavr: If the spec is that it must work with non-comma separated then we should fix this for 4.1.2 [13:44] PeterThoeny: yes, it should work according to spec [13:44] PeterThoeny: seems like an easy fix [13:44] Lavr: Must be. [13:45] PeterThoeny: basically, support "MH". "M H" and "M, H" [13:45] PeterThoeny: who si looking into this? [13:45] StephaneLenclud: I'd say it's not a blocker it's been there since 4.0 probably and does not crash your server nor prevents users to view/edit pages. It's only an issue for application developer. [13:46] PeterThoeny: actually, the reporter said that it was working in 4.0.5, no longer in 4.1.1 [13:46] Lavr: Reporter says it worked in 4.0.5 [13:47] MichaelDaum: then svn blame is your friend [13:47] * CDot is already looking [13:47] PeterThoeny: but i agree with spephane that this is not a release blocker (weighted against the fixed bugs) [13:47] ArthurClemens: Form.pm uses my $mandatory = new TWiki::Attrs( $attributes, 1 ); [13:48] PeterThoeny: oh, thanks CDot! [13:48] CDot: The last change to the attributes parsing was checkin 4439 [13:48] CDot: which was before 4.0.0 [13:48] Lavr: I suggested it because it seems like an annoying bug with an easy fix if it was working in 4.0.5. [13:48] Lavr: I have not yet confirmed that it is working in 4.0.5 [13:49] PeterThoeny: nice to have / easy to fix for 4.1.2, but not a blocker [13:49] PeterThoeny: imho [13:49] Lavr: yes [13:49] PeterThoeny: next [13:49] PeterThoeny: Bugs:Item3654 - Remove lib/LocalSite.cfg.txt http://develop.twiki.org/~twiki4/cgi-bin/view/Bugs/Item3654 [13:49] PeterThoeny: this is actually not a blocker [13:49] StephaneLenclud: Yep, I'll try that on 4.0.5 now. I think I'm still running 4.0.5 [13:50] PeterThoeny: let me take this as an action item [13:50] PeterThoeny: but reprioritized as normal [13:50] PeterThoeny: i think action to take is understood and agreed on [13:50] PeterThoeny: next [13:50] PeterThoeny: Bugs:Item2960 - using utf8 breaks headline anchors http://develop.twiki.org/~twiki4/cgi-bin/view/Bugs/Item2960 [13:51] Lavr: BIIG change. Not patch material. [13:51] MichaelDaum: the commends by Richard simply go over my head [13:51] PeterThoeny: ok, looks like important, but not that urgent for 4.1.2? [13:52] MichaelDaum: proper utf8 needs more investigation. [13:52] Lavr: I think fixing this requires more than a few days of testing and implenting. [13:52] ArthurClemens: sadly we don't have a regular expert [13:53] PeterThoeny: what do you guys think, blocker or not for 4.1.2? [13:53] Lavr: The whole utf8 support seems to be what should be a possible release theme for a major or minor release and driven by someone that understands utf8 [13:53] MichaelDaum: we can't get it done right. but we need a next release. so nope. [13:53] MichaelDaum: sad as it is [13:54] PeterThoeny: true [13:54] PeterThoeny: any other voices? [13:54] Lavr: The TOC itself needs a good discussion also because this is not the only principle issue with TOC [13:54] MichaelDaum: yea, there's this issue about same headlines not beeing distinguished. so ... [13:55] CDot: let it go. It needs a good lavring to fix UTF8, and that isn;t going to happen for this patch. [13:55] PeterThoeny: ok, we have an agreement :-) [13:55] Lavr: yes [13:55] PeterThoeny: next [13:55] PeterThoeny: Bugs:Item3582 - Page loads unreasonable slow under IE with Twisty enabled http://develop.twiki.org/~twiki4/cgi-bin/view/Bugs/Item3582 [13:56] PeterThoeny: ArthurClemens: was this an item we discussed last time? [13:56] Lavr: If there is no fix for the Javascript then I will simply checkin my quick fix that removes it from the template. But only in the patch branch. [13:57] Lavr: I have had to implement that fix on both my production TWikis. It is a serious issue [13:57] ArthurClemens: if you want to hold on the deadline that is the thing to do [13:57] ArthurClemens: because it may take time to fix [13:57] PeterThoeny: ok, sounds good [13:57] PeterThoeny: nice to have a real fix / fallback as kenneth suggest [13:57] PeterThoeny: adn not a release blocker [13:58] PeterThoeny: ? [13:58] PeterThoeny: anyone disagrees? [13:58] Lavr: It is not a release blocker to fix Javascript but it is a blocker to at least remove the twisty. I'll do that. I have the templates ready [13:58] PeterThoeny: ok, great [13:58] PeterThoeny: next [13:58] PeterThoeny: Bugs:Item1742 - Support simultaneous edits in WysiwygPlugin http://develop.twiki.org/~twiki4/cgi-bin/view/Bugs/Item1742 [13:58] Lavr: So we keep the item urgent. [13:59] PeterThoeny: crawford, could you elaborate? [13:59] CDot: no change since the last meeting [13:59] CDot: still urgent, still not going to get done [13:59] Lavr: It is already marked for target release Major. [14:00] PeterThoeny: ok, so an n/a for 4.1.2 [14:00] Lavr: Yes [14:00] PeterThoeny: i think that's it for review of blockers [14:00] PeterThoeny: now, on timing [14:00] PeterThoeny: +60 min [14:00] Lavr: Are there any already fixed items from MAIN that should be merged in? [14:00] CDot: hold on, not quite done yet [14:00] CDot: there are more issues that need review before 4.1.2; there are several that have been fixed, but are stuck in "Waiting for Feedback". 3443 (urgent), 2953 (normal) [14:00] PeterThoeny: ok [14:00] MichaelDaum: why arent they listed as release blockers [14:01] Lavr: Those were the ones I was thinking about. [14:01] CDot: they are fixed, and are waiting for merge [14:01] PeterThoeny: http://develop.twiki.org/~twiki4/cgi-bin/view/Bugs/3443 [14:01] PeterThoeny: http://develop.twiki.org/~twiki4/cgi-bin/view/Bugs/Item3443 [14:02] PeterThoeny: "SEARCH performance under mod_perl is awful" [14:02] Lavr: I did not take it into 4.1.1 because I found it was not ready. And there were many more checkins after. But none lately. So if people are happy to put it in then I can merge it in. [14:02] CDot: 3443 is two part; there is the core changes to support multiple search algorithms, and there is the native search module [14:02] CDot: I only really care about the core changes [14:02] CDot: because they enable people to apply the other module if they need it [14:03] CDot: without it, mod_perl is a complete dog [14:03] Lavr: It is documented now so people know how to install it? [14:03] PeterThoeny: i think this is for kenneth and crawford to decide if to take into 4.1.2 [14:03] CDot: yes, it's documented on t.o [14:03] MichaelDaum: I'd love to see this being released asap [14:04] PeterThoeny: crawford: how much risk in taking into 4.1.2? [14:04] PeterThoeny: i find this a very useful enhancement [14:04] CDot: well, it's been running in windriver for the last month or so..... [14:04] PeterThoeny: by all means take it into the next patch, provided that the risk is low [14:04] CDot: and in two others of my clients [14:04] CDot: the main risk is in the doc [14:05] CDot: I have never had time to document the install procedure "properly" [14:05] PeterThoeny: my main concern is risk for new bugs in core [14:05] CDot: it really needs more people to test it. [14:05] PeterThoeny: doc misses are no big risk [14:05] CDot: I think that risk is low [14:05] CDot: as I say, it has been live in clients for some time [14:05] PeterThoeny: kenneth, what is your take? [14:05] Lavr: If you have a setting in configure and no clue what it is then it can create noise and frustration. [14:06] CDot: yes; did you read the doc on the setting? [14:06] Lavr: But that must be resolverable with two good lines of text in configure [14:06] Lavr: I did not read it lately. Did you already add a good text for the field? [14:06] PeterThoeny: as long as the default is the "workins out of the box" one i do not see a problem if docs are not 100% [14:06] CDot: I believe I did, yes [14:07] Lavr: CDot. There are many checkins. I would prefer that you do the merge so I do not miss anything. [14:07] StephaneLenclud: About http://develop.twiki.org/~twiki4/cgi-bin/view/Bugs/Item3685 HM issue. It all seems to be consistent on 4.0.5. So the HM fields are showing at edit time but are hidden at view time. I posted a comment on the bug report. [14:07] CDot: Lavr: ok [14:07] Lavr: And then I will run a quick test on my 5.6.1 to ensure that the native good old searching still works. [14:07] PeterThoeny: sounds good :-) [14:08] PeterThoeny: ok, any other busg item? [14:08] PeterThoeny: s/busg/bugs/ [14:08] CDot: http://develop.twiki.org/~twiki4/cgi-bin/view/Bugs/Item2953 [14:08] CDot: i think it's a no-brainer, but it needs merging [14:09] PeterThoeny: "Meta data ignored by TWiki::Func::checkAccessPermission" [14:09] PeterThoeny: this looks like low risk to me [14:09] Lavr: I listed all the plugins that uses the API. And it is long. Is it backwards compatible? [14:10] PeterThoeny: oh, good question! [14:10] Soronthar: no, it's not, by construction [14:11] Soronthar: plugins needs to be modified to pass the $meta parameter [14:11] CDot: yes, it is [14:11] CDot: no. I added it to the end of the list, and made it optional [14:11] CDot: so a plugin can use it, should use it, but won;t break [14:12] Soronthar: i was thinking in other case: the plugin is acting on an "updated" topic with access on the metadata [14:12] PeterThoeny: in other words, if no meta param is supplied, same spec as before? [14:12] CDot: correct [14:12] PeterThoeny: ok, so it is compatible then [14:12] Lavr: OK. Then we merge it in. [14:12] PeterThoeny: good! [14:12] PeterThoeny: decision made [14:12] CDot: though Soronthar is correct, in that any plugin not supplying meta is inherently broken [14:13] CDot: so we should make sure it is in the core plugins [14:13] PeterThoeny: unless $text is undef [14:13] CDot: right [14:13] CDot: if text is undef, no problem [14:13] PeterThoeny: any other bugs items? [14:13] CDot: not from me [14:13] Lavr: Should we then check the two default plugins that uses the API? [14:13] Lavr: EditTable and Comment [14:13] CDot: yes [14:13] PeterThoeny: yes, a "nice to have" for 4.1.2 [14:14] PeterThoeny: anyone taking this action item? [14:14] PeterThoeny: ok, now to timing [14:15] ArthurClemens: how are your guests holding? [14:15] PeterThoeny: kenneth, what is your take? [14:15] Lavr: ASAP may be required. [14:15] PeterThoeny: tom is watching over my sholders, making phone calls etc :-) [14:15] PeterThoeny: rod did not show up [14:15] Lavr: ASAP = this week. [14:16] PeterThoeny: sounds good [14:16] PeterThoeny: shall we pick a date? [14:16] PeterThoeny: on taht day we should have at least two developers on standby for kenneth [14:17] Lavr: This time it is less critical provided that the fixes we agreed to merged in are merged no later than tomorrow. I did a test build yesterday so the Patch04x01 seems very stable right now. [14:17] PeterThoeny: kenneth, do you want to propose a day? [14:18] Lavr: So don't f**k it up ;-) [14:18] PeterThoeny: :-) [14:18] MichaelDaum: fingers crossed [14:18] PeterThoeny: knock on wood [14:18] Lavr: Maybe already release Thursday or Friday. [14:18] PeterThoeny: (my forehead) [14:19] Lavr: I am home alone the Monday-Wedneday (SWMBO is it Amsterdam "working"). [14:19] Lavr: That gives me time to finish a release. [14:19] *** IRCRod_ has joined #twiki_release. [14:19] PeterThoeny: which day do you prefer to pick as the release day? [14:19] PeterThoeny: so that developers can plan to help you out [14:20] PeterThoeny: at least on standby [14:20] MichaelDaum: don't make it a weekend [14:20] PeterThoeny: hi rod, welcome here! [14:20] Lavr: I think I want to target Thursday. But that requires that the merges are done during tomorrow. [14:20] PeterThoeny: i informed everyone that we have the author of the starfish and th spider visiting [14:21] PeterThoeny: ok, so lets plan for thursday for day of build [14:21] PeterThoeny: i will be on standby [14:21] PeterThoeny: and help out on updating the twiki.org topics [14:21] PeterThoeny: anyone else who can help out kenneth? [14:22] Lavr: Great. CDot can you commit to merge the mod_perl search stuff tomorrow? [14:22] Lavr: Peter: I cannot remember. Did you update the access rights doc? [14:22] PeterThoeny: rod: we are about to finish agenda item "1. TWiki Release 4.1.2 Coordination" [14:22] CDot: Lavr: sorry, i can't commit to it, but I will certainly try [14:23] Lavr: Cool. [14:23] PeterThoeny: sorry, kenneth, what access rights doc? [14:23] IRCRod_: hi peter! [14:23] Lavr: Peter: The ALLOWXXXX do make doc fit code. [14:23] PeterThoeny: ah, followup of security audit [14:23] CDot: grrrrr..... wrong decision [14:24] PeterThoeny: no, i did not do that yet [14:24] Lavr: That Peter is a release blocker ;-) Will you? [14:25] PeterThoeny: yes, a.i. for me [14:25] PeterThoeny: by tomorrow night [14:25] CDot: Peter, please be careful when you change the doc, so that the same error as was in the security announcement doesn;t creep in. [14:25] CDot: only ALLOW is affected [14:25] PeterThoeny: ok, i'd like to take this offline with crawford and kenneth [14:26] PeterThoeny: can we meet tomorrow at #twiki-st to discuss this and another item? [14:26] PeterThoeny: i will be giving a presentation again tomorrow, so i'd need to meet a bit ealier [14:26] PeterThoeny: is 20gmt ok? [14:27] Lavr: I can at any time - yes 20 GMT is OK with me. (21 CET) [14:27] CDot: that should be OK [14:27] PeterThoeny: great [14:27] PeterThoeny: i think we are done with 4.1.2 release coordination [14:27] PeterThoeny: anything to add? [14:27] Lavr: Yep done [14:27] CDot: if I'm not there, text my mobile; i will have forgotten :-/ [14:27] MichaelDaum: so 2. Review Proposed Features will be discussed tomorrow [14:28] PeterThoeny: not sure i have your mobile [14:28] PeterThoeny: pls send by email [14:28] CDot: bottom of all my mails [14:28] CDot: see subversion log [14:28] PeterThoeny: no, tomorrow is the security meeting [14:28] CDot: I mean twiki-dev [14:28] PeterThoeny: we will continue now with: [14:28] MichaelDaum: puh [14:28] PeterThoeny: ---+ 2. Review Proposed Features [14:28] PeterThoeny: +90 min (almost) [14:29] PeterThoeny: how much time do you guys have? [14:29] PeterThoeny: another 30 min ok? [14:29] Lavr: bb in 1 minute [14:29] ArthurClemens: ok [14:29] MichaelDaum: this will be midnight here then [14:29] PeterThoeny: oh, kenneth is the important person for review of features [14:29] CDot: where is the list of feature items? [14:30] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/TWikiFeature04x02 [14:30] CDot: ta :-) [14:30] PeterThoeny: we still not not yet have the app done to track the features [14:30] PeterThoeny: how do you say that in english? [14:31] PeterThoeny: the showmaker is waering the oldest shoe [14:31] PeterThoeny: s/show/shoe/ [14:31] PeterThoeny: Lavr: back? [14:32] PeterThoeny: until he is back: [14:32] Lavr: Back [14:32] CDot: it seems like the list can be divided; into "achievable" and "unachievable" [14:32] PeterThoeny: ok [14:32] PeterThoeny: the purpose of this meeting is not to go through the whole list, [14:32] Lavr: I have not yet walked through all of them either. [14:33] PeterThoeny: just to debate items that are ready and to make a decision [14:33] Lavr: We need to sort those that have a committed developers from the "I wish to have". [14:33] CDot: on a point of procedure; what does DONE mean? [14:33] Lavr: I add the done when the code is checked in. [14:33] CDot: to MAIN? [14:33] Lavr: Yes. MAIN. [14:33] CDot: k [14:34] PeterThoeny: process is documented at http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/TWikiRelease04x01Process [14:34] PeterThoeny: i think we need the app as soon as possible [14:34] PeterThoeny: so that kenneth's work is easier [14:34] *** StephaneLenclud has signed off IRC ("Leaving."). [14:34] Lavr: Yes. And with Flenser's message I guess the rest of us have to do it. [14:34] PeterThoeny: right now it takes some time to review the list to see what should to be discussed [14:35] Lavr: And I want to recruit some more customers advocates. And I prefer they are non-developers. [14:35] PeterThoeny: the app is not that complex [14:35] PeterThoeny: someone needs to commit to it and build it [14:35] PeterThoeny: yes, good point Lavr [14:36] PeterThoeny: Lavr: can you pick two or three that you feel are ready for discussion? [14:36] Lavr: Let me look [14:37] PeterThoeny: in the mean time, anyone interested in taking over the app from Flenser? [14:37] ArthurClemens: there is an app already? [14:38] Lavr: TWiki:Codev.AddTWikiAdminUser is still in discussion about the implementation but I feel there is broad concensus for the principle idea. [14:38] PeterThoeny: well, we have the old feature tracker that needs to be changed to the new process [14:39] Lavr: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/AddTWikiAdminUser [14:39] CDot: Lavr: yes. It would be a big improvement. I have recently installed Joomla and Drupal, and they both do this on install [14:39] CDot: makes life a lot simpler. [14:40] PeterThoeny: i think we all like to have an easier install experience [14:40] ArthurClemens: agreed [14:40] PeterThoeny: so a default admin user makes sense [14:40] MichaelDaum: absolutely [14:41] PeterThoeny: what i find very confusing though is tocall a "person" a "group", e.g. the TWikiAdminGroup user should be renamed to "TWikiAdmin", "TWikiSuperAdmin" or the like [14:42] ArthurClemens: but there should be more than 1 person [14:42] CDot: we need to separate "groups" and "users", because most single sign-on systems distinguish them [14:43] PeterThoeny: if you look at unix, there is a superuser account, typically used by more than one persons [14:43] PeterThoeny: i think we have a similar situation here [14:43] CDot: actually, that is reckoned to be bad practice [14:43] Lavr: We still need to be able to add normal WikiNames to the TWikiAdminGroup topic. But the idea is that the TWikiAdminGroup already has an TWikiAdmin user defined and the topic is locked per default. [14:43] PeterThoeny: xactly [14:43] Lavr: And the TWikiAdmin gets defined with password in configure. That is the basic idea. [14:44] PeterThoeny: just do not have a topic named "group" act as a user [14:44] PeterThoeny: yes [14:44] CDot: yes; you have to think about a system in which the admin user is the only "TWiki" user. all other users, and all groups, come from - for example - LDAP [14:44] ArthurClemens: Why not create the user (any name) and assign to him/her to be in the TWikiAdminGroup? [14:44] Lavr: The only issue I see is how to IMPLEMENT the authentication when you use fx Apache authentication towards LDAP server [14:44] MichaelDaum: there's already a TWikiAdmin on Twiki.org: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Main/TWikiAdmin [14:45] PeterThoeny: yes, i created that a long time ago [14:45] CDot: Lavr: a good point [14:45] PeterThoeny: for administrative work [14:45] *** Soronthar has signed off IRC ("Chatzilla 0.9.77 [Firefox 2.0.0.1/2006120418]"). [14:45] MichaelDaum: so let's make that the default [14:45] PeterThoeny: suggestion: call that account TWikiSuperAdmin instead of TWikiAdmin [14:45] Lavr: The advantage that Arthur just suggested and I also suggested is that this resolves the LDAP case. You register your LOGIN as admin in configure. [14:45] PeterThoeny: to give this some weight [14:45] ArthurClemens: What's the point if I would need to logout/login each time? [14:46] MichaelDaum: good idea [14:46] Lavr: And configure can then simply add this to the TWikiAdminGroup topic. [14:46] CDot: erm, chaps, given that the likely implementor isn;t here, I suspect this discussion is a bit wasted..... [14:46] CDot: might be good to save it for the wiki [14:46] MichaelDaum: so you become admin either by a flag in configure or by being in the TWikiAdminGroup, right? [14:47] Lavr: The advantage is that .... [14:47] Lavr: 1. The first admin is defined in configure. [14:47] Lavr: 2. Everything else is business as usual. [14:48] Lavr: We discuss implementation but it seems we all agree to give Sven a go-ahead and work on the implementation. [14:48] MichaelDaum: what was the disadvantage of putting some admin account into the relase and into the twikiadmingroup? sorry, didn't get that. [14:48] MichaelDaum: everything like ldap comes later [14:48] Lavr: How will Apache authenticate a user called TWikiAdmin if the authentication is handled by Apache via LDAP. [14:49] Lavr: THAT is how we do it at Motorola. TWiki has nothing to do with the authentication then. [14:49] MichaelDaum: put him into the ldap directory? [14:49] Lavr: But I have no chance to add a TWikiAdmin user to our LDAP. [14:50] Lavr: It is a corporate LDAP with 70000 users. [14:50] Lavr: And we have at least 15 TWikis around with different admins. [14:50] MichaelDaum: that would be 70001 [14:50] PeterThoeny: how about leaving the choice to the admin at install time? [14:51] PeterThoeny: specify a new user that gets registered, or leave at the default TWikiSuperAdmin user the system already has [14:51] MichaelDaum: what we are talking about is unpacking a fresh twiki release and what is in there. [14:51] Lavr: If configure can let you define the name of the first admin instead of hard coding it to TWikiAdmin then the problem is solved. [14:52] Lavr: But it requires that configure writes this names to the TWikiAdminGroup topic. Not a big deal. [14:52] PeterThoeny: configure could have a {defaultAdmin} setting, set to TWikiSuperAdmin by default [14:52] PeterThoeny: user can change that, [14:52] CDot: yes, it's a big deal [14:52] PeterThoeny: if changed, an account will be created [14:53] CDot: I have sites where Main is locked down, preventing all write [14:53] CDot: all users are done via LDAP [14:53] CDot: I don;t want to have to make an exception for this [14:53] CDot: I want to name the admin user in configure [14:53] PeterThoeny: timecheck: +115 min [14:53] CDot: and if they have to be created, then they should be created [14:53] PeterThoeny: lets try to close in 5 min [14:53] Lavr: CDot. It seems we agree then. [14:53] CDot: but only if. [14:54] CDot: yep [14:54] CDot: but it's moot, at the end of the day; the implementer will listen, but will do his own thing in the end. [14:54] MichaelDaum: next feature please [14:54] Lavr: Well. This log is good input for Sven. So decision is go-ahead. [14:55] PeterThoeny: who is summarizing this and adding our discussion to feature topic? [14:55] Lavr: I will need to summarise for the minutes tomorrow. I will add a pointer to this then [14:55] PeterThoeny: ok, great [14:56] PeterThoeny: next item? [14:56] CDot: ControlOverVariableExpansion [14:56] CDot: this is something I'd really like to see in [14:56] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/ControlOverVariableExpansion [14:57] PeterThoeny: yes, i also like to see this implemented [14:57] CDot: for TWikiApp developers, this is very powerful and useful [14:57] PeterThoeny: but i think it is too ealry to make a decision [14:57] Lavr: Again a good discussion on the implementation and syntax but all seems to have their arms up in joy about the idea. Including me. [14:58] PeterThoeny: i suggested the feature initially mainly to have more control at template topic instantiation time [14:58] CDot: well, that was the only other topic that was pressing any buttons for me :-) [14:58] PeterThoeny: crawford and others have good ideas to broaden the scope [14:59] Lavr: I think that feature has great potential for many usages. [14:59] PeterThoeny: i believe we need to debate the spec a bit more in the codev topic, and decide next time [14:59] CDot: note: the scope of the initial *implementation* can be as narrow as you like, as long as the *design* is open and generic [15:00] Lavr: But the response is positive so it is not sa waste of time to participate in the discussion about the feature. [15:01] CDot: I think we ran out of time.... [15:01] PeterThoeny: +120 min [15:01] * ArthurClemens is silently reading up [15:01] PeterThoeny: ok, lets continue this in the codev topic [15:01] MichaelDaum: the extra 30 mins are over [15:01] PeterThoeny: very good topic, and good discussion [15:01] PeterThoeny: yes [15:02] PeterThoeny: i would love to see someone pick up the tracker app for the features [15:02] ArthurClemens: what should it do? [15:02] PeterThoeny: so next time kenneth has an easier time vetting the proposals [15:02] Lavr: I will consider when I have 4.1.2 out of the door. [15:02] PeterThoeny: :-) [15:02] Lavr: Afterall I never got to write down the requirements I have. [15:03] PeterThoeny: ArthurClemens: interested in helping out on the app? [15:03] PeterThoeny: lets take this offline [15:03] PeterThoeny: i think we are done with the meeting [15:03] ArthurClemens: I can help out. How do I find out what should be in? Is the process topic enough? [15:04] PeterThoeny: was a good meeting [15:04] PeterThoeny: thanks all for hanging in there for 2 hours [15:04] MichaelDaum: I hope we get more feature discussions like this soon [15:04] PeterThoeny: arthur: we have a topic in codev [15:04] PeterThoeny: let me find it and send you the link [15:04] PeterThoeny: thanks for looking at it :-) [15:05] Lavr: Arthur. There are some special requirements. We have the 14 day rule which comes in effect when a proposal is raised AND there is a committed developer that will implement it if accepted. [15:05] PeterThoeny: yes, we have some nice features in the pipline [15:05] PeterThoeny: just so little resources to attack them [15:05] ArthurClemens: well, otherwise we would have meetings every day... [15:06] MichaelDaum: okay good nite everybody [15:06] ArthurClemens: nite [15:06] CDot: g'night [15:06] Lavr: So we need to identify the proposals that have a committed developer and the date of the proposal and an APP that shows when it expires. [15:06] *** CDot has left #twiki_release. [15:06] PeterThoeny: good night/afternoon everyone! [15:06] *** MichaelDaum is now known as MichaelDaum_. [15:06] Lavr: And we have the other rule that if ANYONE raised concern then the item must be accepted or rejected at next release meeting. [15:07] Lavr: So we need a field to flag that concern is raised. [15:07] ArthurClemens: we need to write up the rules for the interface [15:07] ArthurClemens: scenarios [15:08] ArthurClemens: now: time for bed [15:08] ArthurClemens: night [15:08] Lavr: Best place to start is the http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/TWikiRelease04x01Process [15:08] *** ArthurClemens has left #twiki_release.