[11:34] *** #twiki_dakar: PeterThoeny MichaelDaum_ SvenDowideit_ @SvenDowideit [11:35] *** #twiki_dakar was created on Mon Jan 30 02:20:49 2006. [12:33] *** AndreaSterbini has joined #twiki_dakar. [12:34] AndreaSterbini: hi [12:46] *** AndreaSterbini has signed off IRC ("Chatzilla 0.9.70 [Firefox 1.5/2005111116]"). [12:55] *** Lynnwood has joined #twiki_dakar. [12:55] Lynnwood: Hi gang! [12:58] Lynnwood: I'm trying to bring up the meeting topic. Is it just really slow or is TWiki.org kaput? [12:58] PeterThoeny: hi lynnwood, micha, sven and andrea! [12:58] PeterThoeny: no, twiki.org is ok, just extremely slow [12:59] PeterThoeny: load average 15 [12:59] Lynnwood: hi PeterThoeny. Awesome work on the TWiki web reorg! [12:59] *** SteffenPoulsen has joined #twiki_dakar. [12:59] *** Lavr has joined #twiki_dakar. [12:59] Lavr: Good evening everyone [12:59] PeterThoeny: thanks [12:59] SteffenPoulsen: greetings, everyone :-) [13:00] *** ArthurClemens has joined #twiki_dakar. [13:00] ArthurClemens: hola! [13:00] SteffenPoulsen: 'ep! [13:00] PeterThoeny: the meeting minutes are at (Link: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/DakarReleaseMeeting2006x01x30)http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/DakarReleaseMeeting2006x01x30 [13:01] PeterThoeny: twiki.org is very slow at the moment, lot of simultaneous views [13:01] Lynnwood: Thanks Peter. I say let's go ahead and start even if some more show up. We can defer an item is a key person is not available. [13:01] PeterThoeny: usually caused by a missbehaving spider [13:01] SvenDowideit_: moinmoin :) [13:01] PeterThoeny: but this time just high traffic [13:01] SteffenPoulsen: PeterThoeny: We'll just have to live with that ;-) [13:02] PeterThoeny: twiki seems to be in the news somewhere in europe today [13:02] SvenDowideit_: really? [13:02] SvenDowideit_: cool! [13:02] SteffenPoulsen: is there a public referrer-listing available, still? [13:03] SteffenPoulsen: (I think awstats was running one time?) [13:03] * SteffenPoulsen is curious [13:03] SvenDowideit_: y, still is [13:03] Lynnwood: SteffenPoulsen - will you be able to take the notes again today? [13:03] SvenDowideit_: and i started the mrtg scripts again yesterday [13:03] SteffenPoulsen: yep, will do, np, taking edit lock now [13:03] ArthurClemens: can't find any topic on google news [13:03] Lynnwood: I should be able to facilitate for at least 90 minutes. [13:04] Lynnwood: I hope we can complete in near that. [13:04] * Lynnwood is not into marathon meetings. [13:04] PeterThoeny: who else should join? [13:04] PeterThoeny: crawford is in vacation [13:05] SteffenPoulsen: don't know really - it's going to be a lot of doc talk tonight, I believe [13:05] PeterThoeny: knock on wood, today's list is shorter, so we should be able to finish the meeting in time [13:05] Lynnwood: So shall we start with quick review of followup from last week? [13:06] Lynnwood: Is there someone who has reviewed those today who could touch on highlights? [13:06] *** meredith has joined #twiki_dakar. [13:06] *** meredith is now known as MeredithLesly. [13:06] SteffenPoulsen: well, let's just run through them - I'll cut and paste [13:06] SteffenPoulsen: ---++ Review items from DakarReleaseMeeting2006x01x23 [13:06] SteffenPoulsen: ---+++ Point 1: Dakar Doc Update (FIXME min) [13:06] *** MeredithLesly has left #twiki_dakar. [13:07] *** QBFreak has joined #twiki_dakar. [13:07] SteffenPoulsen: PeterThoeny had 7 docs to go last time, don't know how much is left? [13:07] *** MeredithLesly has joined #twiki_dakar. [13:07] PeterThoeny: when i created the minutes based on the prev one i kept only the items that need discuss [13:07] *** MeredithLesly is now known as bitca. [13:07] PeterThoeny: ok, on docs: [13:07] Lynnwood: OK great - then let's just proceed from there [13:07] PeterThoeny: down to 2 :-) [13:07] SteffenPoulsen: whee! [13:07] PeterThoeny: only TWikiPreferences and WebPreferences left [13:07] Lynnwood: I committed a revised INSTALL.html last night [13:08] SteffenPoulsen: that's great, Peter, very relieved to hear that :-) [13:08] Lynnwood: although I want to go back and review what links I can add from the work Peter has done. [13:08] Lavr: Is the INSTALL.html actually included in a build? [13:09] PeterThoeny: yesterday i spent the whole day and evening to revamp the twiki web on twiki.org [13:09] Lynnwood: I asked SvenDowideit to include it [13:09] PeterThoeny: we have now a bunch of supplemental documents [13:09] Lynnwood: and also to NOT include the TWikiDocumenation.html which, imho, is a mess. [13:09] PeterThoeny: the dakar docs should be reviewed and some links added to those supplemental docs [13:09] PeterThoeny: i have already done a bunch [13:10] Lynnwood: the intent of the INSTALL was to provide just the docs that were needed and then refer to further docs in TWiki web and on TWiki.org [13:10] *** AndreaSterbini has joined #twiki_dakar. [13:10] PeterThoeny: lynwood: yes, get rid of TWikiDocumenation.html and add INSTALL.html in twiki root [13:10] SvenDowideit_: ok, doing :) [13:10] Lynnwood: cool :) [13:10] Lavr: Yes. I just noticed the doc was not in the RC1 when I looked earlier helping a guy on #twiki [13:11] SteffenPoulsen: sounds great - makes good sense for e.g. the Debian distribution as well .. very aligned with standard foss-way of doing things [13:11] PeterThoeny: after the release we should look on how to automate the INSTALL.html [13:11] Lynnwood: yes - I can say more about that. [13:11] PeterThoeny: for ease of maintenance it should be a wiki topic that gets pushed to INSTALL.html [13:11] Lynnwood: Yes - I have a twiki topic [13:12] Lynnwood: that just needs a few changes to make the html doc [13:12] Lynnwood: which I'm doing manually now. [13:12] Lynnwood: I'm not sure where to store the twiki version for now. [13:12] PeterThoeny: lets take that offline [13:12] Lynnwood: OK [13:12] SteffenPoulsen: sounds like you'll figure out something :-) [13:12] PeterThoeny: could you create a codev topic to discuss this? [13:13] Lynnwood: Folks with svn - I've welcome any further feedback and I can make a final round of changes by tommorrow [13:13] Lynnwood: I can do that and include the content. Suggestion for topic name? [13:13] AndreaSterbini: hi people, best wishes for a healthy new version! [13:14] PeterThoeny: InstallDocInTWikiRoot or something like that [13:14] Lynnwood: thanks [13:14] SvenDowideit_: moin moin AndreaSterbini :) [13:14] SvenDowideit_: hope you like it [13:14] SteffenPoulsen: InstallHtmlTWiki04x00x00 [13:14] PeterThoeny: btw, steffen, are you taking notes again? [13:15] Lynnwood: he said he would [13:15] SteffenPoulsen: yep, I'm noting! [13:15] AndreaSterbini: (moin moin?) [13:15] PeterThoeny: thanks steffen! [13:15] SvenDowideit_: hehe, caught that off Thomas (and i'm german too) [13:15] *** bitca has left #twiki_dakar. [13:15] *** bitca has joined #twiki_dakar. [13:15] Lynnwood: Peter - you say the only docs left are TWikiPreferences and WebPreferences? [13:15] SvenDowideit_: its german slang for good morning [13:15] bitca: Dunno if this belongs here, but I did a fresh new RC1 install per naive user. There isn't a login link in the sidebar. Oughtn't there be? [13:16] PeterThoeny: lynnwood: for twiki.org doc sync, yes [13:16] Lynnwood: what is needed there? [13:16] AndreaSterbini: here is night :-) [13:16] Lynnwood: ah - OK [13:16] Lynnwood: I was mixing topics. sorry [13:16] SvenDowideit_: grin [13:16] PeterThoeny: i will do some general doc editing [13:17] Lynnwood: is the upgrade guide acceptable? [13:17] AndreaSterbini: is there a planned irc chat for toasting (skool-ing) to the newborn Dakar? [13:17] PeterThoeny: on upgrade guide, there are actually more detailed changes between cairo and twiki.org version [13:17] PeterThoeny: some of which would be nice to merge over [13:18] PeterThoeny: but it is in a "good enough" state [13:18] SteffenPoulsen: are actually more detailed changes between cairo and twiki.org version [13:18] SteffenPoulsen: some of which would be nice to merge over [13:18] SteffenPoulsen: but it is in a "good enough" state [13:18] SteffenPoulsen: whoops, shift+insert pastes, sorry [13:19] SteffenPoulsen: it sounds like you're on top of it from where I sit - do you need any help to make the deadline, or will it work out? [13:19] PeterThoeny: lynnwood: if you have time, in dakar twiki web, could you add some links to supplemental docs? [13:20] Lynnwood: when is our deadline? [13:20] Lynnwood: on docs? sven? [13:20] SvenDowideit_: the deadline is now :) [13:20] PeterThoeny: lets talk about deadlines later [13:20] SteffenPoulsen: install.html is soon, if it needs to go in the distro - twiki.org is more elastic [13:21] SteffenPoulsen: all this doc work is more than most of us can cope with, but if we need to kick in some effort I suppose we _could_ [13:21] Lynnwood: I believe Peter is speaking of adding links in the distributed version of twiki web. [13:21] PeterThoeny: yes [13:21] Lynnwood: I'll certainly do what I can up to the deadline whenever that is. [13:21] *** AndreaSterbini has signed off IRC (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). [13:22] Lynnwood: But first, I'll review again install.html [13:22] bitca: I know I'm not official, but I'll help with the doc some if desired [13:22] Lynnwood: I'm svn upping right now. do I see sven added some notes in the file? [13:22] SteffenPoulsen: bitca: very welcome :-) [13:23] Lynnwood: thanks alot bitca! perhaps we can touch base on that later. [13:23] bitca: OK. I'll shut up now [13:23] PeterThoeny: bitca: sorry, would you let me know your name? [13:23] *** bitca is now known as MeredithLesly. [13:23] PeterThoeny: hi meredith! [13:24] MeredithLesly: Sorry. I feel silly with full name [13:24] PeterThoeny: i think this is all on docs for now (except for the urgent ones in bugs web we will cover later) [13:24] SteffenPoulsen: great - from the minutes we have also [13:24] SteffenPoulsen: * Guidelines and best practises for plugin authors; supporting multiple releases, in code + in plugin topic [13:25] SvenDowideit_: INSTALL.html == Item1544 == svn:8599 [13:25] Lynnwood: Peter - what about the last item about guidelines for plugins? [13:25] Lynnwood: SvenDowideit - thanks [13:25] PeterThoeny: i thnk this should be a new supplemental doc [13:25] MeredithLesly: Bletch. I have to support Cairo? [13:25] PeterThoeny: so we simply link to it from the distributed docs [13:26] PeterThoeny: this is an action item for me: add link to supplemental doc on guidelines for authors [13:26] SteffenPoulsen: PeterThoeny: sounds like a good idea. From our discussion last time, we seemed to agree on a keep-it-simple approach, but we can park it here, as a new doc + link [13:26] PeterThoeny: s/authors/plugin authors/ [13:27] PeterThoeny: no, add supplemental doc link to existing TWikiPlugins topic [13:27] PeterThoeny: then we can work on the doc after the release [13:27] SteffenPoulsen: good idea [13:27] Lynnwood: duely noted [13:27] SteffenPoulsen: great, closing comments on plugin docs for now? [13:27] PeterThoeny: none from me [13:28] SteffenPoulsen: ok [13:28] SteffenPoulsen: ---+++ Point 4: Translations (FIXME min) [13:28] SteffenPoulsen: everything looks great here, some refered maketext work is piling up in a bug now, so it's not forgotten for 4.0.1 [13:28] SteffenPoulsen: refered = defered [13:29] SteffenPoulsen: terceiro has called out on twiki-dev for authors to come forward with translations now, we hope the best [13:29] PeterThoeny: yes, i created that topic for that reason [13:29] PeterThoeny: what is the status on spanish, in antonio's email it was only about half done [13:30] SteffenPoulsen: that's all the status I have as well [13:30] Lynnwood: anything more for now on translations then? [13:31] Lynnwood: OK, then on to Point 10: Item 1322... [13:31] PeterThoeny: antonio checked in the spanish translation, but i do not know if complete [13:31] SteffenPoulsen: don't think so, perhaps terceiro will stop by later [13:31] SteffenPoulsen: ---+++ Handling Cairo/Dakar compatibility issues of Plugins (FIXME min) [13:31] PeterThoeny: just to understand, a 50% spanish translation is not a showstopper, right? [13:31] Lynnwood: terceiro is on #twiki - perhaps someone could ping him. [13:32] SteffenPoulsen: PeterThoeny: Not at all, spanish user will just see an intermix of spanish and english strings, that's all [13:32] PeterThoeny: ok [13:32] ArthurClemens: but to say that TWiki supports Spanish... [13:32] MeredithLesly: Change it to "it supports Spanglish"? [13:33] PeterThoeny: hehe [13:33] SteffenPoulsen: *g* [13:33] ArthurClemens: just to control high expectations [13:33] ArthurClemens: of a large portion of our world's population [13:33] *** terceiro has joined #twiki_dakar. [13:33] MeredithLesly: People still speak Spanish? [13:33] terceiro: hi all [13:33] terceiro: almost forgot the meeting [13:33] ArthurClemens: luckily we have Chinese [13:33] PeterThoeny: hi antonio [13:34] SteffenPoulsen: hep terceiro! - just finishing point on translations here - talking about status on spanish one [13:34] PeterThoeny: antonio: what is the status on spanish, %done? [13:34] terceiro: Miguel told me by e-mail that he would send me a 100% translated es.po by tomorrow [13:35] PeterThoeny: cool [13:35] Lynnwood: sweet! [13:35] ArthurClemens: the translations are very hard [13:35] ArthurClemens: without context of the page [13:35] SvenDowideit_: terceiro, what does tomorrow mean? [13:35] Lynnwood: I can imagine! we have a hear enough time agreeing on the english! [13:35] SteffenPoulsen: yep, you get some surprises seing the text in action .. need fine tuning there [13:35] terceiro: SvenDowideit: depends on where Miguel lives [13:35] SvenDowideit_: thats why i ask [13:36] ArthurClemens: "%1 has been editing the topic for %2 and the lease is still active for " [13:36] ArthurClemens: "another %3." [13:36] PeterThoeny: we ar on the good side if in europe, ok if amricas [13:36] SvenDowideit_: :) [13:36] terceiro: Spain [13:37] SvenDowideit_: sweet - so in the next 18 hours probably :) [13:37] terceiro: I hope [13:37] Lynnwood: perhaps we can take any further discussions of translations off-line and proceed to Point 10 [13:37] Lynnwood: OK? [13:37] SteffenPoulsen: ArthurClemens: Yep, that's a good one there - danish users will have to learn about "sekund+s" instead of the usual "sekund+er" :-) [13:37] SteffenPoulsen: Lynnwood: OK [13:38] SteffenPoulsen: ---+++ Handling Cairo/Dakar compatibility issues of Plugins (FIXME min) [13:38] PeterThoeny: antonio: we have not talked about deadlines yet, but can you send him an e-mail afterwards with our deadline? [13:38] terceiro: PeterThoeny: what is our deadline? [13:38] terceiro: when? [13:38] PeterThoeny: wait til later in meeting [13:38] terceiro: PeterThoeny: ko [13:38] terceiro: ok [13:38] Lynnwood: What can we achieve here and now about Point 10? [13:39] Lynnwood: was there any follow-up meeting on that since last meeting? [13:39] PeterThoeny: compatibility issues is now mainly a doc question [13:39] MeredithLesly: I ran the conformance plugin a day or two ago [13:39] PeterThoeny: supplemental doc on recommendations for plugi nauthors [13:39] MeredithLesly: Friday. And updated (Link: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Plugins/PluginsConformanceReport)http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Plugins/PluginsConformanceReport [13:40] MeredithLesly: It would be Very Good if configure let you know if a plugin was thought to be compatible. But too late, I expect [13:40] SteffenPoulsen: OK, that is something we'll have to re-visit after the release [13:40] Lynnwood: sorry - I've fallen behind... [13:40] Lynnwood: or we jumped. [13:40] Lynnwood: OK [13:41] SteffenPoulsen: Lynwood: following agenda in Codev/DakarReleaseMeeting2006x01x30 [13:41] MeredithLesly: Should something be added to each plugin page as to whether it's expected to work? [13:41] SteffenPoulsen: MeredithLesly: yep, and a link to "last known working Cairo version" - that's what we talked about last time at least [13:42] MeredithLesly: It's currently wicked hard to figure out what's safe to install [13:42] SteffenPoulsen: MeredithLesly: Indeed is :-) .. well, plugin docs will need a revisit after release [13:43] SteffenPoulsen: any last comments on plugins? [13:43] Lynnwood: Is there a consensus about what approach to take there? [13:43] MeredithLesly: I'm a bit sad that so few plugins come pre-installed [13:44] MeredithLesly: What with the whizzy configure thingie and all [13:44] SteffenPoulsen: Lynnwood: "He who will do the work will get a lot to decide"-approach? [13:44] Lynnwood: sounds reasonable - but perhaps we need the guidelines for them. [13:44] SvenDowideit_: I was thinking that after Dakar, it would be good to make a TWikiPlugins.tgz tryout pack [13:45] Lynnwood: was that what Peter was referring to earlier? [13:45] SteffenPoulsen: Lynnwood: Spot on :-) [13:45] Lynnwood: For example, what version with the docs on twiki.org describe? [13:45] PeterThoeny: no, i was talking about recommendations for plugin authors, how to code plugins to be compatible and how to publish [13:45] MeredithLesly: Is it out of the question to include the most popular plugins? [13:45] Lynnwood: that is what version WILL the docs describe [13:46] Lavr: The most popular are included. [13:46] MeredithLesly: No, the ones that are enabled on twiki.org are included [13:46] PeterThoeny: meredith: we have strong voices in the community to ship with as few plugins as possible [13:47] SteffenPoulsen: Lynnwood: As far as latest talk goes, topic will talk about Dakar or Cairo+Dakar-compatible version. Only-Cairo versions will be self-contained archives, with a link to them [13:47] SvenDowideit_: (from my pov, once they are in the shipped archive, they are nolonger plugins) [13:47] Lavr: How many and which plugins to include is something that there are as many oppinions on as there are users. [13:47] Lynnwood: SteffenPoulsen - that makes sense. thanks for clarification. [13:47] SteffenPoulsen: MeredithLesly: BuildContrib does some work in doing customizations a lot easier [13:47] MeredithLesly: There's a page that lists generally popular plugins [13:47] SvenDowideit_: but the real reason has to do with the maintainence load [13:48] PeterThoeny: anyway, it is too late for including additional plugins for twiki 4.0.0 [13:48] SvenDowideit_: and the need for more developers to maintain more code [13:48] MeredithLesly: OK [13:48] Lynnwood: better to be conservative at this late date. [13:48] Lynnwood: But seems like Sven's proposal of providing a bundled set of plugins would be a nice followup. [13:48] MeredithLesly: Oh, yes: (Link: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/EssentialPluginsAtDakarRelease)http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/EssentialPluginsAtDakarRelease [13:49] Lavr: The important thing is that the Codev/EssentialPluginsAtDakarRelease plugins with a :-) are up to date on Twiki.org and not only on SVN [13:49] MeredithLesly: I believe that only PreferencesPlugin and WysiwygPlugin are shipped, aside from Cairo ones [13:50] Lynnwood: Is there more discussion needed on plugins prior to release? [13:51] SteffenPoulsen: let's continue, then .. there's a single item from the latest urgent list, we need to close before taking current urgent [13:51] SteffenPoulsen: ---++ Handling registration/passwords/e-mail addresses [13:51] Lavr: To my best knowledge all that is working now. [13:51] SteffenPoulsen: but as far as I'm concerned, this is closed and done with - anybody of another opinion? [13:52] SteffenPoulsen: OK, then on to the current bugs [13:53] SteffenPoulsen: Item1322 TWikiHistory needs Dakar history - EVERYONE PLEASE HELP FINALIZE LIST [13:53] Lavr: Can you share the search you use? [13:53] SteffenPoulsen: (Link: http://develop.twiki.org/users/develop/cgi-bin/view/Bugs/AllOutStandingItems?class=Engine%7CDocumentation&=&sortcol=3;table=1;up=1#sorted_table)http://develop.twiki.org/users/develop/cgi-bin/view/Bugs/AllOutStandingItems?class=Engine%7CDocumentation&=&sortcol=3;table=1;up=1#sorted_table [13:53] SteffenPoulsen: (it's just the "Items by urgency" from webleftbar on develop) [13:53] Lavr: OK [13:54] SteffenPoulsen: some discussion on this last time, ended up in refactoring work done and credit parts [13:54] Lynnwood: Any other comments on Item1322? [13:54] PeterThoeny: on twikihistory, it is "good enough" now, but i would still like to see some more details [13:55] SteffenPoulsen: does it need to remain open until release, or can it be closed now - or perhaps just degraded to "normal"? [13:55] PeterThoeny: there are more useful features in dakar not listed in twikihistory [13:55] PeterThoeny: degarde to normal is fine [13:55] SteffenPoulsen: OK, I'll do that [13:56] SteffenPoulsen: other comments for history? [13:56] SteffenPoulsen: guess not :-) [13:56] SteffenPoulsen: Item1542 Doc feedback by Pablo Caskey [13:56] PeterThoeny: pablo posted many smaller items [13:56] PeterThoeny: all doc fixes [13:56] Lynnwood: side note: we keep coming up to the deadline question and this informs almost everything else. It seems like Sven alone REALLY has to set the deadline for svn commits. So I'd like to ask him to think about that. [13:57] PeterThoeny: this is a "low hanging fruit" to improve the docs [13:57] Lynnwood: It was good feedback - but I had doubts about adding his instructions in TWikiAdminGroup. [13:57] SteffenPoulsen: PeterThoeny: I think I can take most of them, I believe they are all somewhat "minor" or "obvious" - that fits me well :-) [13:57] Lynnwood: I thought about adding them to the install gide. [13:57] Lynnwood: or a modified version [13:58] PeterThoeny: correct, vet each suggestion, no everything should be added to the docs [13:59] Lynnwood: or more to the point - I'm hesitant to add docs to a group topic. [13:59] PeterThoeny: thnaks steffen for taking this as an action item [13:59] SteffenPoulsen: Lynnwood: Yep, agreed .. let' [13:59] SteffenPoulsen: s see what we can do in refactoring it somewhat [14:00] Lynnwood: into the docs. yes. will do. [14:00] SteffenPoulsen: ok, on we go [14:00] SteffenPoulsen: Item1540 SESSIONVAR or SESSION_VAR? [14:01] PeterThoeny: the docs are confusing and contradicting [14:01] PeterThoeny: i do not know what the actual implementation is [14:01] PeterThoeny: who did the implementation? [14:02] PeterThoeny: at this point i dod not want to change the code [14:02] PeterThoeny: just update the docs [14:02] PeterThoeny: but i need to understand what the spec is [14:03] SteffenPoulsen: *sniffwe miss CDot to blow this one off the street .. [14:03] MeredithLesly: Annoying Brits [14:03] PeterThoeny: ok, someone needs to reverse engineer this [14:03] SteffenPoulsen: really called SESSION_VARIABLE? [14:03] PeterThoeny: to understand and update the docs [14:05] SteffenPoulsen: expands to "8" - no pressing urge to get into that [14:05] PeterThoeny: just grepped, TWiki/Client.pm has SESSION_VARIABLE [14:06] PeterThoeny: any volunteers to investigate and update the docs? [14:06] Lynnwood: don't everyone jump... [14:06] SteffenPoulsen: TWiki/TWikiVariables#SESSION_VARIABLE_get_set_or_clea has docs already? [14:07] SteffenPoulsen: whoops, getting confused here, now I see it [14:09] PeterThoeny: ok, unassigned at this point [14:09] Lynnwood: so is it just a matter of looking for any incidences in doc of SESSIONVAR and changing to SESSION_VAR? [14:09] PeterThoeny: and understand the spec for better doc [14:10] PeterThoeny: ok, lets move on [14:10] SteffenPoulsen: SESSION_VAR definitely is a doc error, doesn't expand, doesn't work .. I'll eliminate that [14:11] SteffenPoulsen: OK, next one [14:11] SteffenPoulsen: Item1537 WIKI(USER)NAME does not get expanded [14:11] PeterThoeny: no it cant be eliminated, TWikiUserAuthentication documents SESSION_VAR with parameters [14:11] Lynnwood: so neither SESSIONVAR nor SESSION_VAR expand? [14:11] SteffenPoulsen: but it should have been SESSIONVAR, that works ok [14:11] PeterThoeny: probably SESSION_VARIABLE instead [14:11] PeterThoeny: but with parameters [14:11] SteffenPoulsen: yep, right, SESSION_VARIABLE is right [14:11] SvenDowideit_: i expect to be looking into 1537 today [14:12] PeterThoeny: doc has documents no parameters [14:12] PeterThoeny: gosh, i talk in pigeon english [14:12] SteffenPoulsen: *g* a bit compressed, yep [14:12] SteffenPoulsen: well, I'll see what I can do - then you can always revert the patch if it's too awful [14:13] PeterThoeny: ok, thanks steffen [14:13] SteffenPoulsen: Item1537 WIKI(USER)NAME does not get expanded [14:13] SvenDowideit_: i expect to be looking into 1537 today [14:14] PeterThoeny: on Item1537 - WIKI(USER)NAME does not get expanded, i suggest to expand the vars in the code, not in prefs [14:14] SvenDowideit_: y, thats what i was going to see about doing [14:14] PeterThoeny: cool [14:14] *** QBFreak has signed off IRC (Connection timed out). [14:14] SvenDowideit_: but hopefully allowong the user to over-ride the code [14:15] SvenDowideit_: basically, if i can provide a default value for the variables in the code, we're set [14:15] PeterThoeny: why is over-ride needed? [14:15] PeterThoeny: these are system variables [14:16] SvenDowideit_: i'll pass on answering that until i look into what CDot was intending [14:16] PeterThoeny: ok [14:16] PeterThoeny: lets move on [14:16] SteffenPoulsen: Item1420 last translations update after string freeze for Dakar [14:16] SteffenPoulsen: we talked about that one .. [14:17] SvenDowideit_: who's doing elvish? [14:17] SteffenPoulsen: Item663 TWiki.org Merge: Sync TWiki.org docs into Dakar Develop - WAITING FOR PTh [14:17] PeterThoeny: yep, next.. [14:17] PeterThoeny: we talked about that [14:17] SteffenPoulsen: oki - next is new: [14:17] SteffenPoulsen: Item1534 COVER documentation not so clear [14:17] PeterThoeny: this is "normal" prio [14:17] PeterThoeny: but good to cover here [14:18] SteffenPoulsen: ArthurClemens: are you updated on this one? [14:18] ArthurClemens: I'm not [14:19] PeterThoeny: i also do not understand the COVER feature [14:19] ArthurClemens: I tried it out and I don't understand it [14:19] ArthurClemens: different than I expected [14:19] Lynnwood: not a good sign :\ [14:19] ArthurClemens: it looks like setting the SKIN [14:19] ArthurClemens: so now I don't know the difference [14:20] SteffenPoulsen: ok - all I read was that it could be pushed "in front of skin path" - but as I don't understand skins very deep that makes no sense to me anyway [14:20] MeredithLesly: Skin path stuff is confusing and counterintuitive [14:20] ArthurClemens: so the cover is the ?ber skin? [14:20] PeterThoeny: it is an obscure enough feature, people who do not understand it will not use it [14:20] SteffenPoulsen: so I presume it won't be part of the user session (as skins will), and that's about it? [14:20] PeterThoeny: but some doc work woud help [14:21] ArthurClemens: Then I miss what I was hoping cover would do [14:21] Lynnwood: yes - if any of us actually understood it. [14:21] ArthurClemens: to selectively override a template part [14:21] ArthurClemens: I can't find a way to do it [14:21] Lavr: CDot changed the buttons for WYSIWYG from skin= to cover= [14:22] MeredithLesly: I understand what it's trying to do, but I still consider it broken [14:22] ArthurClemens: and this was raised by bitca when she was working on a plugin trying to override a pattern skin template part [14:22] MeredithLesly: Essentially, the search paths for skins is backwards (IMO), so cover is an attempt to remedy that [14:22] MeredithLesly: bitca==MeredithLesly [14:22] ArthurClemens: y [14:23] MeredithLesly: Because of the backwardness, cover is more necessary than it should be [14:23] Lynnwood: So what is the realistic objective at this point in time? Clarify the doc? [14:24] PeterThoeny: yes [14:24] MeredithLesly: Sigh. [14:24] ArthurClemens: _is_ there a way to selectively override a template part? [14:24] MeredithLesly: This will be quite difficult to do even just in doc [14:25] MeredithLesly: In theory, %TMPL:DEF in a cover [14:25] MeredithLesly: In practice, not a clue if it works [14:25] Lynnwood: MeredithLesly or ArthurClemens - do either of you think you understand it enough to add even a bit of clarification? [14:25] ArthurClemens: I don't [14:25] MeredithLesly: I'm trying to find the page that documents it [14:26] PeterThoeny: TWiki.TWikiSkins is the only doc [14:26] Lynnwood: while you're looking for that, perhaps we could continue. [14:26] SteffenPoulsen: I think it is there to allow for user preference in Wysiwyg editor - one user can have = kupu, another = htmlarea (perhaps in the future!) .. but I don't know how this related to templates .. [14:27] PeterThoeny: and mentioned in TWiki.TWikiReleaseNotes04x00x00 [14:28] PeterThoeny: we do not need to spend time here on understanding it [14:28] SteffenPoulsen: = kupu will alter edit.tmpl in one way, = htmlarea in another? .. hmmmm .. I'll just stop guessing here [14:28] PeterThoeny: who is looking into it? [14:28] MeredithLesly: The documentation seems to have changed since last I looked [14:29] * SteffenPoulsen suggests a candidate: MeredithLesly [14:29] MeredithLesly: Oh, nvm. It's in TWikiTemplates [14:29] * MeredithLesly sticks her tongue out. Documenting something that's wrong is NotAFunThing [14:29] SteffenPoulsen: it might be to us :-) [14:29] PeterThoeny: bash-2.05$ grep -l COVER TWiki/* TWiki/TWikiPreferencesForm.txt TWiki/TWikiReleaseNotes04x00x00.txt TWiki/TWikiSkins.txt [14:30] MeredithLesly: This is the relevant URL: [14:30] MeredithLesly: (Link: http://develop.twiki.org/~develop/cgi-bin/view/TWiki/TWikiTemplates#Finding_Templates)http://develop.twiki.org/~develop/cgi-bin/view/TWiki/TWikiTemplates#Finding_Templates [14:30] Lynnwood: But it make you so much better prepared to fight for a change later. :-) [14:30] MeredithLesly: It's enough to drive a strong woman to tears [14:31] PeterThoeny: hmm, possibly undocument the feature so that it is easier to change the spec later? [14:31] MeredithLesly: COVER is not the problem. The problem is the search order for templates. [14:31] MeredithLesly: Shall we undocument that instead? [14:31] PeterThoeny: no we can't do that [14:31] * MeredithLesly was being sarcastic [14:31] SteffenPoulsen: :-) [14:31] PeterThoeny: :-) [14:32] MeredithLesly: But seriously, it *is* backwards. What's in the template directory takes precedence over what's in the web [14:33] MeredithLesly: That is, if there's a %TMPL:DEF{"foo"}% in the template directory, you can't override it in the web, EXCEPT... [14:33] MeredithLesly: By using COVER, which sticks the "COVER" in a place where it takes a higher priority [14:34] MeredithLesly: For example, %TMPL:DEF{"toolbar"}% will *always* come from the templates directory unless you put in a COVER [14:34] PeterThoeny: oic [14:34] MeredithLesly: or modify the template [14:34] * MeredithLesly hopes everyone understands why I'm cranky about this [14:34] PeterThoeny: ok, can we move on? [14:35] SteffenPoulsen: let's do so [14:35] SteffenPoulsen: ---++ Other items that need to happen before release [14:35] MeredithLesly: Except for the fact that I truly don't know how to document it, yes [14:35] Lynnwood: is there any action on this? [14:35] Lynnwood: it sounds like perhaps adding to the doc won't do much. [14:35] SteffenPoulsen: MeredithLesly: Haven't given you an action point, but I think you just documented it pretty OK [14:36] Lynnwood: Before we leave bugs, I'd like to ask if anyone has testing if the right topic elements are added when authentication is turned on. [14:36] Lynnwood: This relates to MeredithLesly's comment earlier regarding no login link - but also seems like I've seen other reports of password field not showing up in the registration topic. Has anyone done a recent install of rc1 and tested this? [14:36] Lynnwood: If not, we can just proceed. But thought I'd ask. [14:36] Lavr: Password field not showing. That is a FEATURE [14:37] SteffenPoulsen: Lynnwood: Has to do with LDAP logins, no problem [14:37] Lynnwood: OK. [14:37] MeredithLesly: At this point in a release cycle, *everything* is a FEATURE [14:37] PeterThoeny: hehe [14:37] Lynnwood: hehe [14:37] Lavr: No it was ADDED intentionally. A real feature. Not a panic kind ;-) [14:37] SteffenPoulsen: MeredithLesly: Like that .. "TWiki .. more features than you'd ever want!" [14:37] MeredithLesly: "Or can possibly comprehend!" [14:38] SteffenPoulsen: *g* [14:38] SteffenPoulsen: ---++ Other items that need to happen before release [14:38] PeterThoeny: sven, all set on building the final release after the deadline? [14:38] *** legolas has joined #twiki_dakar. [14:39] SvenDowideit_: y [14:39] PeterThoeny: on my side, i need to create the presentation for the dakar release party [14:39] Lynnwood: Sven - what deadline do you want to set for svn commits? [14:39] PeterThoeny: that needs to happen before wed evening local california time [14:40] SvenDowideit_: I expect to be able to build either within 12 hours [14:40] SvenDowideit_: or failing that [14:40] SvenDowideit_: in about 24 hours [14:40] PeterThoeny: wait, on deadline, we need could backwards [14:40] SvenDowideit_: y, that too [14:40] SvenDowideit_: how many hours til you need a release out there [14:41] PeterThoeny: the press release is to "be released on 01 Feb 200" and states that twiki 4,0 is available immediately for download from twiki.org [14:41] PeterThoeny: that is americas time [14:41] MeredithLesly: gah [14:41] SvenDowideit_: y, so how many hours til that? [14:42] SvenDowideit_: i'd like to avoid all timezoe questions [14:42] PeterThoeny: meaning it should be ready by wednesday morning us eastern time [14:42] SvenDowideit_: and just work in T- [14:43] Lynnwood: 8am Wednesday would be about 4 am GMT? [14:43] Lynnwood: What not just say 12am gmt [14:43] PeterThoeny: 08:00 GMT (morning) [14:43] PeterThoeny: is 05:00am eastern time (i think) [14:43] Lynnwood: which would be noon EST, I think. [14:44] Lynnwood: oh what am I saying. :-0 [14:44] * Lynnwood shuts up about time [14:45] PeterThoeny: i am not sure if i got the calucaltion right either [14:45] MeredithLesly: no, 5 hours off, not [14:45] MeredithLesly: not 3 [14:45] MeredithLesly: it's 10:45 in england right now [14:45] SvenDowideit_: stop talking timezones altogether [14:45] Lavr: EST is 5 hours and 50 years behind GMT :-) [14:45] MeredithLesly: =P [14:46] SvenDowideit_: just tell me how many hours from now [14:46] MeredithLesly: Yes! Let's drop the timezone and let everyone just try and figure out when it's actually being released [14:46] PeterThoeny: ok, 10:00 GMT would be 05:00am eastern [14:46] MeredithLesly: That'll buy us some more time [14:46] PeterThoeny: so, package ready for download on 01 Feb at 10:00 GMT [14:47] PeterThoeny: sven needs 12 hours, so absolute freeze at 31 Jan at 22:00 GMT, right? [14:48] SvenDowideit_: i have no idea [14:48] SvenDowideit_: how many hours is it from now til 01 Feb at 10:00 GMT [14:48] SteffenPoulsen: sounds reasonable [14:48] *** terceiro has signed off IRC ("Leaving"). [14:48] SteffenPoulsen: SvenDowideit: 22:48 GMT right now, about 37 hours? [14:50] SvenDowideit_: ok, so if I start the build process in 24 hours (ie after i sleep in a little tomorrow maorning [14:50] SvenDowideit_: i'll have plenty of time to fix any small things i find [14:50] PeterThoeny: so that means, sven gets up and has time all day [14:50] SvenDowideit: ok, swapping computers:) [14:50] SvenDowideit: ya - and gives everyone around 12 hours to help test and fix nigglies [14:50] PeterThoeny: so last checkin on 31 Jan at 22:00 GMT, ok? [14:51] SvenDowideit: no idea [14:51] SvenDowideit: how many hours away is that? [14:51] MeredithLesly: -3, probably [14:51] SteffenPoulsen: SvenDowideit: about 23 hours [14:51] SvenDowideit: i'd say thats not right [14:51] SvenDowideit: in 24 hours all commits must be discussed with me :) [14:51] SvenDowideit: i'll be on irc from then [14:52] SvenDowideit: because if anyone finds a bug that we can fix [14:52] SvenDowideit: then its worth looking at it [14:52] SvenDowideit: (the rc1 build took 6 hours because i was fixing things i saw on the way [14:52] PeterThoeny: yes, only with very careful check [14:52] SvenDowideit: y, they have to be very obvious and pain free fixes [14:53] Lynnwood: OK folks, start your countdown clock! :-) [14:53] * MeredithLesly is glad she isn't really part of all this [14:53] PeterThoeny: ok, last mile to go :-) [14:53] SvenDowideit: I exepct that I will make an rc2 within the 12 hours from now [14:53] SvenDowideit: to allow for overnight sanity checking [14:53] PeterThoeny: good idea! [14:53] SteffenPoulsen: SvenDowideit: not a bad idea at all :-) [14:53] Lynnwood: Oh but MeredithLesly, you are! [14:53] MeredithLesly: By very small values of sanity? [14:54] *** legolas has left #twiki_dakar. [14:54] * SteffenPoulsen looks around - didn't anyone tell Meredith? [14:54] SvenDowideit: and to reduce unexpecteds tomorrow [14:54] Lynnwood: like it or not, your a witness. If you leave, we have to kill you. [14:54] * MeredithLesly would appreciate it if someone would wrest the nick "Meredith" from that other person's hands [14:54] SteffenPoulsen: sorry, bitca doesn't tab-complete at the moment :-) [14:55] MeredithLesly: 2 points to anyone who figures out where it comes from [14:55] SvenDowideit: you're a 'bit catctus' ? [14:55] MeredithLesly: 0 pts to Sven [14:56] SteffenPoulsen: don't leave us hanging here .. google doesn't turn up anything! [14:56] MeredithLesly: Pardon? It turns up *tons* of appropriate hits! [14:56] ArthurClemens: Its a small bit in a slavic language [14:57] MeredithLesly: The second hit is relevant!! [14:57] SteffenPoulsen: + useful [14:57] PeterThoeny: ok, i think we are almost done with the meeting [14:57] MeredithLesly: lol [14:57] SvenDowideit: nnnoooo [14:57] PeterThoeny: lets finish up then socialize [14:57] MeredithLesly: (Link: http://www.btvs-tabularasa.net/faq/glossary.html)http://www.btvs-tabularasa.net/faq/glossary.html [14:57] SvenDowideit: we need bitca on the meeting minutes [14:57] *** MeredithLesly is now known as bitca. [14:58] SteffenPoulsen: good idea, first things first [14:58] SvenDowideit: its that recent huh [14:58] bitca: indeed [14:59] SteffenPoulsen: ok, agenda is empty [14:59] SteffenPoulsen: only: ---++ Miscellaneous is left [14:59] bitca: As are minds [14:59] PeterThoeny: hehe [14:59] PeterThoeny: misc items: [14:59] bitca: May I be the official jokester here? [14:59] PeterThoeny: i am wondering if someone can help out with pr in europe [15:00] bitca: If you fly me there, sure [15:00] PeterThoeny: a new #twiki_jester channel :-) [15:00] bitca: jestress, if you don't mind [15:00] PeterThoeny: lol [15:01] PeterThoeny: i and a friend are covering the news agencies here in the us, sending the press release [15:01] bitca: Erm, do we really want a "Edit" button on a topic that is supposed to be regarded as read-only? [15:02] PeterThoeny: wondering if somone in europe can handle this for europe [15:02] SteffenPoulsen: that'd be Lavr + me .. [15:02] Lavr: What do you have in mind? [15:02] bitca: Let's volunteer CDot in absentia [15:02] PeterThoeny: i have a press release ready that can be sent to news agencies [15:03] PeterThoeny: most companies work with agencies, but this costs money [15:03] SteffenPoulsen: Lavr: Actually, we could ask for a test run in the "Ingeniĝren"-magazine, that might turn out something [15:03] PeterThoeny: there are sites to post press releases fro free [15:03] SvenDowideit: how do you find them? [15:04] PeterThoeny: the best would be to convince the marketing department (of the company you are working for) to release the press release though their channels [15:04] Lavr: Steffen. Yeah. Not a bad idea. Danish only but... What about the European Linux magazines such as Linux Format (UK). [15:04] bitca: (Link: http://www.free-press-release.com/)http://www.free-press-release.com/ [15:05] SvenDowideit: i'd love to see some press in AU, but i'm 'press'ed for time, and most likely they will jus syndicate the US stuff [15:05] PeterThoeny: thanks bitca for the pointer, i will handle this [15:05] bitca: (Link: http://www.pressbox.co.uk/cgi-bin/links/add.cgi)http://www.pressbox.co.uk/cgi-bin/links/add.cgi [15:05] PeterThoeny: that one should be handled by someone in europe [15:06] PeterThoeny: steffen and lavr, do you want to look into this? [15:06] Lavr: The Pressbox one looks pretty straight forward. [15:06] PeterThoeny: s!and!and/or! [15:06] Lavr: You have the text already? [15:06] bitca: google is a wonderful thing [15:06] PeterThoeny: yes [15:07] bitca: Also: (Link: http://www.prleap.com/index/30/)http://www.prleap.com/index/30/ [15:07] PeterThoeny: but i do not want to make it public before the release date since it would dampen the impact [15:07] bitca: Perfect for England and Boston [15:07] PeterThoeny: i can send it by e-mail to whoever would like to have it [15:07] Lavr: kenneth@lavrsen.dk [15:08] PeterThoeny: ok, kenneth, i will send it after the meeting [15:08] PeterThoeny: i think we are done with pr stuff [15:09] SteffenPoulsen: thanks, Lavr - I'll stand by if needed [15:09] bitca: Aprés that, the deluge? [15:09] Lynnwood: OK folks, I'm being called away. It's been great! [15:09] SvenDowideit: cya :) [15:09] PeterThoeny: thanks lynnwood (good as always!) [15:10] * bitca has some runes to scape [15:10] PeterThoeny: ok, i thin kwe are done with the meeting :-) [15:10] bitca: And some virtual dragons to slay as well [15:10] ArthurClemens: Who knows about PatternSkinHeaderArt? [15:11] bitca: Heavens: edittwiki and twikiedit [15:11] ArthurClemens: It has an IMAGEGALLERY tag in it [15:11] PeterThoeny: thanks all for participating, thsi time 2 hours and 11 minutes [15:11] bitca: This is called: there is no good way to support plugins. Grrrrrrr [15:11] PeterThoeny: not bad! [15:12] PeterThoeny: arthur: what about the PatternSkinHeaderArt? [15:13] bitca: Peter: sure you want me on board? I tend to grrrr a lot [15:13] SvenDowideit: bitca, you're way easier to deal with them i am [15:13] SvenDowideit: trust me on that [15:13] PeterThoeny: i do not mind the grrr :-) [15:14] ArthurClemens: PatternSkinHeaderArt is not in MANIFEST, but it is in SVN [15:14] ArthurClemens: no idea of its purpose [15:14] bitca: whereabouts? [15:14] ArthurClemens: ? [15:15] SvenDowideit: oh, :( i'll poke Will, but i've not seen him in a week [15:15] bitca: i mean, whereabouts is it? [15:15] Lavr: On TWiki/PatternSkin there is a dead link to PatternSkinHeaderArt [15:15] bitca: No file of that name, however [15:15] SvenDowideit: Lavr, raise a req bug [15:15] Lavr: OK [15:16] SvenDowideit: and if nothing happens before release, we'll remove mention [15:16] bitca: Unless I got my find wrong [15:16] SvenDowideit: Wbniv was intneding on doing something with it from a contrib i think [15:16] SvenDowideit: but i don't know [15:16] SvenDowideit: one more thing wrt release [15:17] SvenDowideit: if I have trouble with commits tomorrow, i'll lock down svn [15:17] PeterThoeny: we developers suffer from "deformation professionel" [15:17] SvenDowideit: but i don't expect to have to [15:17] SvenDowideit: PeterThoeny, ? [15:17] PeterThoeny: bitca, your unbaised input is appreciated [15:17] SvenDowideit: ah, y [15:18] bitca: thankee [15:19] Lavr: Sven item 1545 [15:19] SvenDowideit: thanks :) [15:21] Lavr: It is a topic with a %IMAGEGALLERY% tag and many attachments - all graphics. My guess is copyright hell. [15:21] SteffenPoulsen: Lavr: Free press releases in danish - (Link: http://www.telemetro.dk/pressagent_bestil_gratis.htm)http://www.telemetro.dk/pressagent_bestil_gratis.htm [15:21] Lavr: So it is probably safer to remove the dead link. [15:22] SvenDowideit: i'm not sure about copyright problems, as Will was doing it to avoid the issue [15:22] SvenDowideit: but basically, its up to will - no answer, and it get removed [15:23] Lavr: I did not look at the pictures. I was just wild guessing. [15:23] SvenDowideit: y, which is all i'm qualified to do too :) [15:23] SvenDowideit: so i prefer to remove that form the decision making matrix [15:24] Lavr: I do not see any pub directory with any of the files. [15:26] Lavr: And IMAGEGALLERY is not a standard plugin. I would say that the file is a sort of cruft. [15:26] Lavr: Thanks Steffen. [15:28] *** bitca has signed off IRC ("This machine just fell asleep"). [15:29] Lavr: The images are on (Link: http://develop.twiki.org/~develop/cgi-bin/view/TWiki/PatternSkinHeaderArt)http://develop.twiki.org/~develop/cgi-bin/view/TWiki/PatternSkinHeaderArt but I cannot see the pub dir on SVN. [15:31] Lavr: Enough from me. Time to sleep. Thanks and good night. Don't fix too much the next 24 hours. It is pretty good now. [15:31] SvenDowideit: i'll bet you a beer that most of the images arephotos that Will made on hist travels [15:31] SvenDowideit: :) [15:31] SvenDowideit: sleep well [15:31] Lavr: Yes. Pics look harmless copyright wise. [15:38] *** ArthurClemens has left #twiki_dakar.