[10:47] *** #twiki_dakar: PeterThoeny OliverKrueger @SvenDowideit 
[10:47] *** #twiki_dakar was created on Sun Jan 22 18:03:50 2006.
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[10:49] MichaelDaum: guys, will be away til my kids are in bed
[10:49] MichaelDaum: will read logs
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[10:53] OliverKrueger: Hi PeterThoeny 
[11:14] PeterThoeny: hi oliver!
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[11:55] terceiro: hi there
[11:56] Lynnwood: Hey there everyone.
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[11:57] Lynnwood: I would like to start pretty much right at the top of the hour, starting with logistical items like reviewing the agenda, adding items, etc.
[11:58] SteffenPoulsen: hello all
[11:58] SteffenPoulsen: everything set for a new meeting? :-)
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[11:58] terceiro: Lynnwood: I would like to add one item: translations and string freeze
[11:59] Lynnwood: got that terceiro. Thanks!
[11:59] PeterThoeny: hi sven, lynnwood, michael, oliver, antonio, steffen, rafael!
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[11:59] Soronthar: hi all
[11:59] PeterThoeny: hi crawford
[11:59] CDot: hey Raf, hi Peter
[12:00] PeterThoeny: today's meeting minutes are at (Link: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/DakarReleaseMeeting2006x01x23)http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/DakarReleaseMeeting2006x01x23
[12:00] Lynnwood: Is there anyone who would be willing to take real-time notes as SteffenPoulsen did so well last time.
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[12:00] Lynnwood: Thanks for setting those up in advance PeterThoeny!
[12:00] Lavr: Hello all
[12:00] SteffenPoulsen: I don't mind doing it again - but if anyone wants a shot, please come forward :-)
[12:00] PeterThoeny: sure!
[12:00] ArthurClemens: good evening everyone!
[12:01] PeterThoeny: hi arthur and kenneth!
[12:01] Lynnwood: Glad you could be here Arthur!
[12:01] terceiro: hi ArthurClemens , good you came 
[12:01] ArthurClemens: have been busy for a week
[12:01] Lynnwood: Everyone, please review real quick the agenda and see if we need to add anything.
[12:02] Lynnwood: SteffenPoulsen - if no one speaks up, thank-you for taking notes again!
[12:02] SteffenPoulsen: Lynnwood: np :-)
[12:03] Lynnwood: Did you see terceiro added agenda item regarding translation string freeze?
[12:03] * PeterThoeny thinks that a synchronous edit feature would be cool for these types of meetings
[12:03] Lynnwood: indeed
[12:03] SteffenPoulsen: Lynnwood: Not besides the Point 4: Translations, that'll do, I s'pose
[12:04] Lynnwood: Anyone else have something to add to agenda? 
[12:04] ArthurClemens: About string freeze: I noticed on a Cairo installation that the attachment file size limit set to 0, you get: upload up to 0 KB. Any idea if this has been changed in Dakar?
[12:04] SteffenPoulsen: Martin, Sam, Sven, Will, Andre, Jason, Joan and Rafael were with us last time - anyone knows if they said they'd show up?
[12:05] Lynnwood: I imagine others will join in as we proceed. but I'd rather we start when we agreed.
[12:05] PeterThoeny: rafael is here - Soronthar
[12:05] terceiro: ArthurClemens: AFAICT, yes
[12:05] SteffenPoulsen: oh, sorry! - hi Rafael :-)
[12:05] PeterThoeny: yes, we have critical mass, lets start
[12:06] Soronthar: hi :)
[12:06] Lynnwood: OK
[12:06] Lynnwood: Item 1: Doc update.
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[12:07] PeterThoeny: working on it
[12:07] PeterThoeny: down to 7,
 TWikiInstallationGuide 
 TWikiPreferences 
 TWikiRegistration 
 TWikiUpgradeGuide
 TWikiUserAuthentication
 WebHome
 WebPreferences
[12:07] PeterThoeny: again a lot of time was spent elsewhere
[12:07] SvenDowideit: go on, add TWikiHistory to that list
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[12:08] Lynnwood: wait a minute... looking at the agenda, we said we'd review notes from last meeting regarding followup item. How about we do that as we address each of the points?
[12:08] PeterThoeny: twikihistory is done from a merge perspective
[12:08] Wohali: I may not be able to participate today, cross-scheduled meeting with my job.
[12:08] PeterThoeny: but needs review
[12:08] Lynnwood: If I don't hear objections, that's how I'll proceed.
[12:08] PeterThoeny: that is  Point 10: Item1322
[12:08] SvenDowideit: PeterThoeny, judging from my reaction - I suggest the use of a script on svn log
[12:08] Lynnwood: I will renew my commitment to work on the docs this week.
[12:09] SvenDowideit: Wohali, thats a shame 
[12:09] SvenDowideit: good calming influence
[12:09] PeterThoeny: lynnwood, please proceed :-)
[12:10] Lynnwood: I was going to work on installation notes and the history to see what I could do with formatting.
[12:10] Lynnwood: Any other comments regarding docs?
[12:10] PeterThoeny: not from me
[12:10] SvenDowideit: Lynnwood, did you see the comments on
[12:10] SvenDowideit: the install.html
[12:10] SvenDowideit: a couple of days ago?
[12:10] Lynnwood: No. on twiki.org?
[12:10] SvenDowideit: no, irc
[12:10] SteffenPoulsen: Sounds like a good portion of work still is left, but good progress on docs anyway, the last week imho
[12:11] Lynnwood: no - I'll go back and review those.
[12:11] SvenDowideit: a newish person gave good feedback
[12:11] Lynnwood: thanks
[12:11] PeterThoeny: on my side it is just mechanical work on docs
[12:11] Lynnwood: OK, Point 4 - translations
[12:11] Wohali: oof
[12:11] Wohali: point of order on docs
[12:11] Lynnwood: :-)
[12:12] terceiro: about translations:
[12:12] SvenDowideit: denied
[12:12] Wohali: I filed an issue yesterday when testing for Lavr - there are some "submarine" pages that need configuration post-install
[12:12] terceiro: I tried to make a string freeze but it just didn't work
[12:12] Wohali: it'd make the most sense to get those documented, or at least summarized into a list.
[12:12] Lynnwood: Wohali - can you explain "submarine"?
[12:13] terceiro: are we talking about translations ? :)
[12:13] Soronthar: not yet
[12:13] Lynnwood: sorry terceiro - short digression on docs. 
[12:13] terceiro: nevermind,  go ahead. I'll wait :)
[12:13] Lynnwood: hang on just a sec - or continue to post comments for when we get back to that.
[12:13] Lavr: Submarine example- (Link: http://merlin.lavrsen.dk/dakar/bin/view/TWiki/ResetPassword)http://merlin.lavrsen.dk/dakar/bin/view/TWiki/ResetPassword  Note the yellow text
[12:14] Lavr: The admin is expected to adjust this during installation.
[12:14] CDot: Wohali: is referring to pages that have "This page to be edited by admin after install" big yellow banners on them
[12:14] CDot: like NewUserTemplate
[12:14] Wohali: yes
[12:14] Wohali: thank you 
[12:14] Wohali: sorry am in conf call right now
[12:14] Lynnwood: OK, got you. So we should at least provide a checklist of these topics that the admin should review after installation.
[12:14] Wohali: have to make my comments brief
[12:14] Wohali: yes
[12:15] Wohali: there's a bug filed on it.
[12:15] SteffenPoulsen: Wohali: There's a bug on this, right? (Link: http://develop.twiki.org/~develop/cgi-bin/view/Bugs/Item1471?)http://develop.twiki.org/~develop/cgi-bin/view/Bugs/Item1471? Let's take it under that minute and make an action item there
[12:15] Lavr: The suggestion is to list those in the install docs so you know you have to walk through them and decide what you want
[12:15] * MichaelDaum is with you now
[12:15] PeterThoeny: oic, Wohali brings a good point, all admin installation steps need to me mentioned in the installation docs
[12:15] Lynnwood: sounds good. any other comments on this. I'll follow up.
[12:16] Lynnwood: Hey, it's the fab five!
[12:16] Lynnwood: ok on to translations. Back to you terceiro.
[12:16] CDot: only temporary, I'm afraid (the fab 5) - copyright images.
[12:16] Lynnwood: you attempted string freeze but was ignored?
[12:16] PeterThoeny: ---+ translations
[12:17] terceiro: that's what I said; again the string freeze was ignored
[12:17] Wohali: PTh:  Correct.
[12:18] Lynnwood: terceiro - suggestion about what this group can do?
[12:18] terceiro: Lynnwood: we have to wait for doc work
[12:19] PeterThoeny: i think my pending doc work does not affect translations
[12:19] Lynnwood: hmmm. what specific part of the doc work?
[12:19] PeterThoeny: the ones i mentioned at 07 past the hour
[12:19] terceiro: PeterThoeny: I also think that, but others keep changing MAKETEXT on the excuse that doc work is going
[12:20] terceiro: unfortunately
[12:20] Soronthar: is there a way to check for new strings being added to TWiki and not to the po files at checkin time?
[12:20] PeterThoeny: i think it is simple- we need to decide on a tring freeze date and stick to it :-)
[12:20] CDot: I thought we did.
[12:20] Soronthar: thus preventing the checkin?
[12:20] terceiro: Soronthar: string are added to po files by running tools/xgettext, what I do periodically
[12:20] CDot: Friday was string freeze day, wasn't it?
[12:20] terceiro: CDot: it was
[12:21] MichaelDaum: Fri, 13th, heh
[12:21] * CDot has been avoiding changing strings since last Monday
[12:21] SvenDowideit: terceiro, if you notice a commit that breaks it
[12:21] SvenDowideit: please revert it
[12:21] PeterThoeny: so, any objections to having a hard string freeze NOW?
[12:21] terceiro: SvenDowideit: I'd like that
[12:21] SvenDowideit: and or tell us 
[12:21] terceiro: does everyone agree with SvenDowideit's sugestion?
[12:21] CDot: sure
[12:21] CDot: do it
[12:21] Lynnwood: y
[12:21] Lavr: y
[12:21] MichaelDaum: y
[12:22] PeterThoeny: ok
[12:22] SteffenPoulsen: yep, final run now would be great
[12:22] OliverKrueger: y
[12:22] terceiro: SteffenPoulsen: yes, I'll do that right now
[12:22] Lynnwood: If no objections, let it be so.
[12:22] Wohali: y
[12:22] Wohali: So say we all!
[12:22] SvenDowideit: sold to the mean man over there
[12:22] ArthurClemens: I've just raised a new bug that affects translation: (Link: http://develop.twiki.org/~develop/cgi-bin/view/Bugs/Item1492)http://develop.twiki.org/~develop/cgi-bin/view/Bugs/Item1492
[12:22] OliverKrueger: I dont know, if this is the right place to mention, but: There is a problem with plurals in the german translation. Whenever a plural is "calculated".
[12:22] SvenDowideit: defered :)
[12:22] ArthurClemens: too late?
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[12:23] Lynnwood: without looking at it, how much time needed to resolve it?
[12:23] SvenDowideit: ooo, the dark man!
[12:23] Lynnwood: welcome JohnTalintyre!
[12:23] terceiro: OliverKrueger: there are no calculated plurals up to now
[12:23] JohnTalintyre: Thanks - first time I've tried IRC :)
[12:23] PeterThoeny: hi john!
[12:23] MichaelDaum: Plurals.pm is rather rudimentary.
[12:24] SvenDowideit: ArthurClemens, discuss / negotiate with terceiro : the problem is each change to text can be consiered to put the release back another week or 2
[12:24] MichaelDaum: a one-way-thing only for english
[12:24] terceiro: MichaelDaum: but Plurals.pm is not used by translations
[12:24] MichaelDaum: oci
[12:25] OliverKrueger: Ok, but wrong plurals are generated in the german translation... Dont know yet, how...
[12:25] Lynnwood: Since this bug has come in at last moment, can it's discussion be taken offline between ArthurClemens and terceiro?
[12:25] SvenDowideit: yep
[12:25] PeterThoeny: i suggest to make english only changes if there is a need, e.g. Item1492 would show "none" for all languages
[12:25] Lynnwood: so we can proceed.
[12:25] SteffenPoulsen: Arthur Clemens: Don't think this affects maketexts at all, at most a new string added for the special case of 0 bytes.
[12:25] terceiro: Lynnwood: I'm ok with that
[12:25] SteffenPoulsen: OK, closing comments on ---+++ Point 4: Translations
[12:25] SteffenPoulsen: ?
[12:25] Lynnwood: yes. thanks
[12:25] terceiro: ArthurClemens: pvt
[12:25] Lynnwood: moving on...
[12:26] Lynnwood: do we need to address Point 10 or was it already discussed?
[12:26] Lynnwood: re Item 1322
[12:26] PeterThoeny: ---+  Point 10: Item1322
[12:26] PeterThoeny: (note to lynnwood: highlight steps so that it is easy to find in log)
[12:27] PeterThoeny: crawford alerted twiki-dev
[12:27] Lynnwood: got you. great.
[12:27] PeterThoeny: i alerted Codev
[12:27] PeterThoeny: we can sort this out in the next few days
[12:27] SvenDowideit: point 1: the format of listing individuals is fraught with error and the danger of missing people that think they did alot of work
[12:27] ArthurClemens: terceiro, freenode says I'm not registered, so no private messages
[12:28] SvenDowideit: i would suggest that at minimum if you are going to list people, then you have to do an analysis of svn log since the start of develop
[12:28] terceiro: ArthurClemens: ok, shall we discuss on #twiki, then?
[12:28] SteffenPoulsen: Sven: They have at least a week to show up and make their corrections, I believe that's fine?
[12:28] SvenDowideit: and I don't think its sensible to do so - as looking at your list, i would have to be added to every item 
[12:28] PeterThoeny: and they can come later as well
[12:28] SvenDowideit: no
[12:29] SvenDowideit: i don't think its fine
[12:29] PeterThoeny: to update the docs
[12:29] Lavr: If people want to be on the TWikiHistory why should this be something for anyone else than themselves to do? The doc is there. Just edit it.
[12:29] SvenDowideit: as there are those that helped that are not here anymore
[12:29] SteffenPoulsen: Sven: Why haven't you added yourself, then - I would expect you to
[12:29] SvenDowideit: because i think the process is flawed
[12:29] SvenDowideit: it asumes that everyone is forward about comming forward
[12:30] SvenDowideit: and most people are not
[12:30] PeterThoeny: fyi, the list was my best effort based on release notes written by crawford and dakarrelease items on codev
[12:30] SvenDowideit: yes, i know
[12:30] SteffenPoulsen: Sven: Yep, something to do better for 5, definately - but we are not hindering anybody for now, and I agree the detailed list is important 
[12:30] SvenDowideit: and i think it shows that its better not to list people in specific features
[12:31] SvenDowideit: i personally think a specific list is _not_ important,infact that it is the problem
[12:32] SvenDowideit: as it looks to the casual reader like it is correct, even though everyone knows it is only a best guess
[12:32] SteffenPoulsen: imho we need to give back credit as much as possible to show the appreciativeness of the community, the detailed list is an excellent opportunity 
[12:32] Lynnwood: I like to take a quick poll on what people think of the approach that Peter has taken initiative to carry out for Dakar.
[12:32] PeterThoeny: most people like to be credited, thus like to be on the list
[12:32] SvenDowideit: and it is also a fantastic way to alienate someone
[12:32] SvenDowideit: by not listing something they did
[12:32] PeterThoeny: there are very few who don't, they have the freedom not to list themselfs
[12:32] SteffenPoulsen: Sven: that's what we need to do better for 5.0.0
[12:33] Lynnwood: 1 saying you are deeply opposed. 5 saying you think its great.
[12:33] SvenDowideit: i think people should be listed, but not against specific things
[12:33] SvenDowideit: 1
[12:33] CDot: 1
[12:33] SteffenPoulsen: 4
[12:33] PeterThoeny: 5
[12:33] Lynnwood: 4
[12:33] OliverKrueger: 3
[12:33] terceiro: 3
[12:33] Wohali: 3
[12:35] Lynnwood: OK. There is precedence for giving some deference to those who've done the work. Peter has already done this work on TWikiHistory.
[12:35] SteffenPoulsen: well, circumstances are not ideal, and we need to give this effort in 5.0.0, credit is important. But showing that our clear intent is to state credit is very important
[12:35] SvenDowideit: i agree 
[12:35] SvenDowideit: credit is important
[12:35] SvenDowideit: but its also important not to set yourself up for failure
[12:35] Lynnwood: For those who have significant problems with it: what proposal would you make for alternative approach.
[12:35] Lynnwood: ?
[12:35] SteffenPoulsen: and so 4.0.0 will be an "intentional statement" to some degree - I believe there is a notice already that the list is best effort
[12:35] SvenDowideit: by making a list that looks heavily biased to those that are in the meetings
[12:36] CDot: I was under the impression that accurate credit had been given in the release notes. I am not clear why that is now being changed, and what the criteria are for the new listing.
[12:36] PeterThoeny: there is a note at the top of the list: "Note: many, many people worked on TWiki-4.0.0. The credits below only list the people who did the bulk of the work on individual enhancements. If you find an ommission please fix it at TWiki:TWiki.TWikiHistory."
[12:36] PeterThoeny: i think it addresses the issue quite well
[12:36] Lynnwood: CDot - So you prefer the earlier format. 
[12:36] SvenDowideit: and as its clear that the list has not come from the canonical list of input - svn log and BugsWeb
[12:37] CDot: Lynnwood: yes
[12:37] Lynnwood: Can you address the concern that Peter has tried to address in TWikiHistory.
[12:37] SvenDowideit: it tastes like cronyism
[12:37] CDot: Lynnwood: sorry?
[12:38] Lynnwood: To sumarize (I think) he's requesting some more specific credit be listed.
[12:38] SteffenPoulsen: Well, let's all agree that we'll review the list and make an effort not to forget those "not in meetings" - and SvenDowideit: Any chance that you will come forward and add yourself? :-)
[12:38] CDot: no, I can't, as i have said many, many, many times (ad nauseam)
[12:38] SvenDowideit: i'm trying to make it clear that i'm not worried about adding myself
[12:38] CDot: I simply can't remember everyone. No-one can.
[12:39] SvenDowideit: i'm worried about those we forget
[12:39] PeterThoeny: "The credits below only list the people who did the _bulk of the work_ on individual enhancements"
[12:39] MichaelDaum: somehow the current problem is coupled to a missing roadmap, a feature plan
[12:39] SvenDowideit: sorry, i might be the only stupid idealist here, with cdot being slightly more practical
[12:39] Lynnwood: And you are opposed to our best, if incomplete, credits?
[12:40] CDot: Peter, if the list is the "bulk workers", why not just take it from the svn log?
[12:40] SvenDowideit: yes, i am opposed to disenfranchising someone that spent hours doing something
[12:40] SvenDowideit: to give us one line of code
[12:40] SteffenPoulsen: SvenDowideit: Indeed, that's why we need to remember this kind of thing as an on-going thing for 5.0.0 while underway
[12:40] SvenDowideit: so that we 'beleive' it is not a bulk of work
[12:40] SvenDowideit: SteffenPoulsen, no, not remember, simply avoid making the mistake in the first place
[12:41] SteffenPoulsen: OK, we need to move on, everybody stated their view
[12:41] SvenDowideit: y
[12:41] PeterThoeny: ok
[12:41] Lavr: Neutral
[12:41] Lynnwood: I'm not sure of the resolution we've reached...
[12:41] MichaelDaum: is it so important?
[12:41] CDot: I understand the desire to have a feature list in TWikiHistory, and I think the list there is a good summary. What I am opposed to is the apparent identification of a "Dakar Team"; a small group of people who did most of the work. It is inaccurate, divisive, and I am vehemently opposed to it.
[12:41] Lynnwood: SvenDowideit & CDot - can you LIVE with the current solution?
[12:41] CDot: It is a point of principal.
[12:42] SvenDowideit: not really, i doubt that i'll be motivated by it
[12:42] SteffenPoulsen: we haven't reached any .. I guess we'll let it run for a few days in twiki-dev and see what happens .. 
[12:42] Lynnwood: a critical point of one that you'd be willing to allow the group to move forward on?
[12:42] CDot: Lynnwood: no. I do not consider the duplication in TWikiHistory necessary, desireable or anything but fractious.
[12:42] PeterThoeny: so crawford an sven, then please add a bullet of "other people who did less sexy work"
[12:42] SvenDowideit: thats the point, we are stating that we will not remember enough of them
[12:43] SvenDowideit: and so we want to avoid not mentioning them
[12:43] Lavr: If I was to decide - put the technical changes in the distribution only. And the history with peoples names on TWiki.org. Then people can always add/remove themselves when/if they get dis-satisfied.
[12:43] CDot: Hold on a minute. I spent an agonising amount of effort crafting a list that has been agreeable to everyone (I think) so far, in the release notes.
[12:43] CDot: Why on earth can't that be re-used?
[12:43] SvenDowideit: lets put it this way, the people that are important to mention in the history (to me) are all the people that did stuff, that are not here.
[12:44] PeterThoeny: because it is too short
[12:44] PeterThoeny: compare the list with earlier releases on twikihistory
[12:44] CDot: I wasn't writing a feature list
[12:44] CDot: I was writing a credits list
[12:44] CDot: they are different things
[12:44] PeterThoeny: the list on the release notes page looks as iff only a few changes have been done in over 12 month
[12:44] Wohali: There is an inherent assumption that more code == bigger credit
[12:44] PeterThoeny: the bew list shows some of the actual work
[12:44] CDot: I'm not talking about reusing the feature list
[12:44] Wohali: I disagree, and not just on personal grounds
[12:44] Soronthar: Why don't we start by defining "what should go in TWikiHistory"?
[12:44] SvenDowideit: so PeterThoeny you're wanting the new TWikiHistory to be backwards compatible, thus making it clear that for Edin* we can't chang it either
[12:45] PeterThoeny: it shows that much more work has been done :-)
[12:45] Wohali: But there is a "core team"
[12:45] CDot: I'm talking about reusing the *credits*
[12:45] Soronthar: I see that it's two things: Change and Credits
[12:45] CDot: your feature list is great
[12:45] Lynnwood: I would like to defer this discussion since we don't seem near any kind of consensus.
[12:45] CDot: I'm fine with it
[12:45] CDot: it's only the credits I find hard to deal with
[12:45] SvenDowideit: Lynnwood, no, i think we're just starting to discuss
[12:46] SteffenPoulsen: I think Lavrs point may be acceptable to everyone - features (change) in distribution, credits in TWiki.org, clearly stating limitations / issues?
[12:46] SvenDowideit: i agree - much safer, and more sensible to make TWikiHistory now be a feature list
[12:46] SvenDowideit: not credits needed
[12:46] CDot: exactly
[12:46] SvenDowideit: y
[12:46] PeterThoeny: disagree
[12:46] SvenDowideit: vote?
[12:46] Lynnwood: please repeat core proposal.
[12:47] Lavr: My proposal was not to - not have credits. Just have it on TWiki.org so it does not become frozen.
[12:47] CDot: remember, there is still a credits list in the release notes; that will stay
[12:47] Lavr: So when a person that contributed comes by and says "hey what about my 100 hours" he can silently add himself.
[12:47] Wohali: so no credits in the actual shipped code?
[12:47] CDot: all I am arguing against is duplicating and changing it in TWikiHistory
[12:47] CDot: yes, credits in the shipped code
[12:47] CDot: see TWikiReleaseNotes
[12:47] Wohali: someone please summarize the core proposal clearly, in 25 words or less
[12:47] Wohali: no double negatives!
[12:47] CDot: they are already there; have been for *months*
[12:47] Lynnwood: Main points as I hear them: 
[12:48] SvenDowideit: considering i wasn't happy with the biased credits in TWikiHistory for cairo either
[12:48] Lynnwood: 1 Credits in TWikiReleaseNotes
[12:48] CDot: y
[12:48] Lynnwood: 2 No credits, only features listed in TWikiHistory
[12:48] CDot: y
[12:48] SvenDowideit: yy
[12:48] Lynnwood: 3 Credits provided on TWiki.org. Where?
[12:48] PeterThoeny: nnnnnnnnnnnnn
[12:49] Lynnwood: stuck 'N'?
[12:49] SvenDowideit: and what do the rest of you think?
[12:49] Lynnwood: yes - please provide quick input on this.
[12:49] Soronthar: for completensess 4. Pth proposal - Credits shipped in TWikiHistory
[12:50] PeterThoeny: with note "many, many people worked on TWiki-4.0.0. The credits below only list the people who did the bulk of the work on individual enhancements. If you find an ommission please fix it at TWiki:TWiki.TWikiHistory."
[12:50] SvenDowideit: actually, i might have an ammended version of peters proposal: we have credits on TWikiHistory, but no-one is allowed to add themselves
[12:50] Lynnwood: Soronthar - are you saying including TWikiHistory as Peter has provided?
[12:50] SvenDowideit: you have to find a mate to do so
[12:51] Wohali: sven:  Will you be my mate?  ;)
[12:51] SvenDowideit: someone has to 'remmeember you'
[12:51] SvenDowideit: oooo
[12:51] Soronthar: that's one of the proposal, even if it's the one being challeged :)
[12:51] CDot: SvenDowideit: you aren't going to get an offer like that more than once in your life ;-)
[12:51] Lynnwood: So SvenDowideit - are you saying you're OK with Peter's format if your provision is added?
[12:51] SvenDowideit: thats what i was thinking - i'm in shock
[12:51] SvenDowideit: Lynnwood, no, not really
[12:52] Wohali: I still stand against the "exclusive" list being those who have the most commits.
[12:52] CDot: no problem with that
[12:52] SvenDowideit: y, i recon that those with commits are the ones least needing credit
[12:52] * CDot goes to delete his name
[12:53] SvenDowideit: the ones that need credit are thse that passed through, said one thing that spurred a thought
[12:53] SvenDowideit: and were never heard from again
[12:53] PeterThoeny: sven: could you think of adding an additional phrase to the list to credit those who did additional work not listed?
[12:53] SvenDowideit: no, thats the point
[12:53] SvenDowideit: thats the reason why i don't think you and i should be mentioned
[12:53] SvenDowideit: we are in the core group, and thus well known to be involved
[12:53] Lynnwood: SvenDowideit - I can see no practical way to meet the standard you're presenting. Can you offer a suggestion?
[12:54] MichaelDaum: this discussion is boring, guys
[12:54] SvenDowideit: simple
[12:54] SteffenPoulsen: Just to be sure: Are most people OK that we won't make the minutes at this rate? - we have a progress of 2 minutes closed in 54 minutes sofar, and 20 agenda items to go?
[12:54] SvenDowideit: remove the people list altogether
[12:54] PeterThoeny: this souds like an action item for all: think of a good phrase to add to credit those not listed explicitely
[12:54] Lynnwood: I understand MichaelDaum - but some folks feel this is a critical matter - reflected in their not willing to compromise.
[12:55] PeterThoeny: i suggest to put this into the parking lot and continue dicussion at the end
[12:55] Soronthar: How about deferring this completely to the next meeting?
[12:55] Lynnwood: I'm looking for a suggestion on how to move forward o this item.
[12:55] CDot: Soronthar: what, the first one after the release?
[12:55] SteffenPoulsen: Action item: Summarize this discussion - perhaps in a Codev topic? Anybody willing?
[12:55] Lynnwood: or continue to work on it off-line between meetings.
[12:56] Soronthar: right.....
[12:56] CDot: offline will not reach a resolution.
[12:56] Lynnwood: Any objectives to parking this topic until end of meeting (if time)?
[12:56] CDot: (of time)?
[12:56] SvenDowideit: basically, that defers it forever
[12:56] PeterThoeny: please discuss at (Link: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/DakarReleaseTWikiHistory)http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/DakarReleaseTWikiHistory
[12:56] SvenDowideit: so ok
[12:56] SvenDowideit: disenfranchise 2 of us devs
[12:57] Lynnwood: that is not the intent SvenDowideit - and seems unfair to characterize as such. 
[12:57] Lavr: When you cannot agree: Summarize proposals into a few on Codev - take a vote - and respect the democratatureship.
[12:58] SvenDowideit: there is a nice way to seperate intent and the actual end result
[12:58] terceiro: PeterThoeny: that topic in Codev seems to just push your opinion. :)
[12:59] * Wohali tunes out
[12:59] terceiro: I have no strong opinion on this, but I think I goto the point of CDot and SvenDowideit 
[12:59] Lynnwood: SvenDowideit - can we more on for now?
[12:59] Soronthar: If this is such an importan point, perhaps it deserves to have another meeting before the release
[12:59] Wohali: yeah, how about this
[12:59] Wohali: have a credit meeting in 48 hours
[12:59] Wohali: those who can't make it can email in their comments
[13:00] Wohali: ppl who want to argue it, will find a way to show up
[13:00] Wohali: those who don't care can ignore the entire thing.
[13:00] Wohali: come up with 2 proposals, to be voted on next week
[13:00] Lynnwood: Seems sensible.
[13:00] Lynnwood: If no objections, I would like to proceed based on Wohali's suggestion.
[13:00] Wohali: or 1 proposal, and then no vote is required.
[13:01] Lynnwood: We have a lot more to cover in this meeting.
[13:01] Wohali: so, no more than 2 proposals.
[13:01] SteffenPoulsen: Wohali: <del>email in</del> -> (Link: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/DakarReleaseTWikiHistory)http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/DakarReleaseTWikiHistory (terceiro: It has an edit button).
[13:01] PeterThoeny: three propoals: my proposal is to complete the list in best efforts
[13:01] Lynnwood: Thanks Wohali!
[13:02] Wohali: next issue?  please?
[13:02] SteffenPoulsen: PeterThoeny: That's what I'll go for as well
[13:02] Lynnwood: OK I believe it's Release Naming. anything needing addressing on that?
[13:02] PeterThoeny: 60 minutes past...
[13:03] SteffenPoulsen: Wohali: will you facilitate the credit meeting / proposals?
[13:03] PeterThoeny: ---++  Release naming convention
[13:03] PeterThoeny: on release naming convention, we agreed on the new naming last time
[13:03] PeterThoeny: which is all good
[13:03] Lynnwood: Let's taking organizing of that meeting to the TWiki.org topic.
[13:04] Lynnwood: any loose ends on the naming?
[13:04] PeterThoeny: but i see a problem that all the janitorial work is left to pth as usual
[13:04] PeterThoeny: so there are still things left to do on codev
[13:04] Lynnwood: What would be your request?
[13:04] Lynnwood: Could you list these for the notes?
[13:05] PeterThoeny: i listed the pending items in (Link: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/TWikiRelease04x00x00beta06)http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/TWikiRelease04x00x00beta06
[13:06] PeterThoeny: in the hope that someone will help
[13:06] PeterThoeny: but nothing so far
[13:06] PeterThoeny: so i will do it when i find time
[13:06] PeterThoeny: as usual
[13:06] SvenDowideit: well for me, i could not grok what you wanted
[13:06] SvenDowideit: and as such moved on
[13:07] SvenDowideit: its like bugs, unclear ones go to the end of the cuq
[13:07] SvenDowideit: cue
[13:07] *** MichaelDaum is now known as MichaelDaum_.
[13:07] Lynnwood: can we take a moment to look at those and ask clarifying questions if needed.
[13:07] PeterThoeny: a) update the release naming convention topic to the new standard
[13:07] SteffenPoulsen: SvenDowideit: Can you be specific about what is unclear?
[13:07] PeterThoeny: b) update all reports that depend on the naming
[13:08] PeterThoeny: done on Codev.TWikiBetaRelease
[13:08] PeterThoeny: pending for Support and Plugins web (to select the release)
[13:08] PeterThoeny: anyway, no need to spend time on thsi now
[13:08] SvenDowideit: ah, if you'd said that, i might have done one or 2
[13:08] Soronthar: Can we have a "detailed" list? That way it's a no-brainer for a WikiGnome to help
[13:08] PeterThoeny: i stated it in codev
[13:08] PeterThoeny: and i will do it
[13:09] Lynnwood: OK. Thanks for clarifying the need.
[13:09] SvenDowideit: no, the topic was not that specific
[13:09] Lynnwood: anyone who can might step up and help Peter with that.
[13:09] SvenDowideit: 'all the reports' left me too much in the dark
[13:09] SteffenPoulsen: SvenDowideit: Please, next time, ask a question, others will think the same, your question will help us all - this is important stuff
[13:09] Lynnwood: Next item:  Handling Cairo/Dakar compatibility issues of Plugins
[13:09] Lynnwood: ---+  Handling Cairo/Dakar compatibility issues of Plugins
[13:10] PeterThoeny: that is a very important one
[13:10] CDot: what is the question?
[13:10] PeterThoeny: for those who have not done, please read (Link: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/HandlingCairoDakarPluginDifferences)http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/HandlingCairoDakarPluginDifferences
[13:11] Lynnwood: Assuming discussion is on-going on TWiki.org, what would you like to accomplish in this meeting Peter?
[13:11] Lynnwood: Are you hoping for resolution or some clarification?
[13:11] PeterThoeny: best case: decide hwo to proceed
[13:11] PeterThoeny: else: define a date (this week) with deadline, if needed with followup meeting
[13:12] PeterThoeny: the twiki extensions are one of the biggest assets of twiki
[13:12] Wohali: recommendation:  branched development in SVN, recruit volunteer to support Cairo-version plugins (all)
[13:12] Soronthar: I think that in this point, we're at the "mercy" of the plugins developers. There is no way we can force a plugin developer to continue support pre-Dakar releases.
[13:12] Wohali: oh, and: encourage all plugin developers to migrate plugins to Dakar ASAP
[13:13] SvenDowideit: y, one thing i thought i would mention
[13:13] Lavr: It is ALWAYS very practical to make all plugins work both in Dakar and Cairo. Sometimes it may be OK just to "freeze" the working Cairo version and make a Dakar version. Especially for those "narrow scope" plugins made by people with less Perl skills.
[13:13] PeterThoeny: i think a sensble approach is to ask plugin developers to keep their plugin compatible for the next 6-12 month
[13:13] SvenDowideit: the plugins in DEVELOP were not meant to be cairo compat
[13:13] CDot: Why are we even having this discussion?
[13:13] CDot: No plugin APIs have been retired.
[13:13] CDot: Not one.
[13:13] SvenDowideit: the DEVELOP/twikiplugins are the DEVELOP compat plugins
[13:13] PeterThoeny: e.g. go through the hassle of file format incompatibilities and api incompatibilities
[13:13] Soronthar: I think is not the Plugin API
[13:13] Wohali: It's just the things taht have broken then?
[13:14] CDot: I have manually been through *every single plugin* fixing bas calls
[13:14] CDot: bad calls
[13:14] CDot: some I couldn't fix, so I left them
[13:14] Lavr: The problem is when plugins have used non-API.
[13:14] CDot: I have *had enough*
[13:14] Lynnwood: Sounds like several inter-related issues. The question before us should be what needs to be resolved PRIOR to dakar release.
[13:15] Lavr: I made the (Link: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/EssentialPluginsAtDakarRelease)http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/EssentialPluginsAtDakarRelease for this reason.
[13:15] Lavr: All the must have plugins are working now. That is good. 
[13:15] Lynnwood: In other words, what aspect(s) of this MUST be resolved prior to Dakar release?
[13:15] Soronthar: I would like to share something: Some of the plugins I created/maintain at the company I work, just can't work with Cairo because they register they tags for increased performance.
[13:15] CDot: If plugins have used non-API, it is *NOT* the responsibility of this release team to fix them!
[13:15] *** JohnTalintyre has signed off IRC ("Chatzilla 0.9.69.3 [Firefox 1.0.7/20050919]").
[13:15] PeterThoeny: crawford: i know you spent a *lot* of time on bringing plugins up on dakar
[13:15] Soronthar: But that's is NOT A BAD THING at all
[13:16] CDot: I *do not agree* that Dakar developers have to do *any* more on this.
[13:16] PeterThoeny: soronthar: cairo or dakar?
[13:16] Lavr: I think the MUST have plugins are there now! The Popular Plugins should be made working ASAP but not at the release of Dakar.
[13:16] Soronthar: They won't work on Cairo.
[13:16] Lynnwood: I believe all the plugins that were included in Cairo are included in Dakar. Right?
[13:17] CDot: most plugins *will* work on Cairo
[13:17] SteffenPoulsen: CDot / Wohali: I guess what plugin developers won't fix on their own is the infrastructure part "Downloading and installing Plugins should be intuitive and easy, both for Cairo and Dakar installations"
[13:17] Lavr: All that were in Cairo are working in Dakar now.
[13:17] PeterThoeny: lets step back for a moment
[13:17] Lynnwood: thanks Lavr
[13:17] Soronthar: Wait a second. I think we're discussing several things at the same time.
[13:17] Lavr: EditTablePlugin was fixed a few days ago thanks to CDot.
[13:17] SvenDowideit: excuse me, but would some of this be resolved if i create a Cairo/twikiplugins in svn?
[13:17] * CDot has gone for a beer. An expensive beer.
[13:17] PeterThoeny: the key question is how to handle the dakar plugins that are now in develop branch and not yet on plugin topic in plugins web at twiki.org
[13:18] Soronthar: ok. That makes sense
[13:18] SvenDowideit: ah, like my one :)
[13:18] SvenDowideit: i wouldn't worry about it
[13:18] Lavr: The Dakar plugins should go back on the plugins web on TWiki.org.
[13:18] Soronthar: what about.. release version number in plugin packages?
[13:18] SvenDowideit: people can choose to advertise or not
[13:19] Soronthar: Plugin-twiki3.zip and PLugin-twiki4.zip ?
[13:19] PeterThoeny: a relase version in package name is exactly what i would like to avoid
[13:19] CDot: we don;t need a version no in the package name
[13:19] SvenDowideit: oh, thats a bad idea
[13:19] PeterThoeny: because it makes installation more difficult and it promotes writing dakar only plugins
[13:19] CDot: all that's needed is a not in the plugin topic body
[13:19] Soronthar: What if I don't want to support my Cairo-compatible plugin?
[13:19] SvenDowideit: mmm, i recon we do need a version number
[13:20] CDot: just say in the plugin topic text "if you want to use cairo, use version XX"
[13:20] PeterThoeny: many organizations do not want or cannot upgrade twiki for quite some time
[13:20] SvenDowideit: yes, but if i don't want to support cairo, i don't have to
[13:20] CDot: where version XX is the latest cairo version
[13:20] CDot: no, of course not
[13:20] Lavr: I can see the reason why you would want a Twiki3 and Twiki4 version. If the plugin author decides only to support 4.0+ we cannot force him. Then it is better to freeze a known working Cairo version.
[13:20] CDot: it is up to a plugin author whether they support cairo or not
[13:20] Soronthar: Exactly my point.
[13:20] SvenDowideit: the version number in the tgz is needed to make it clear
[13:20] Lavr: Agree with Cdot and Sor.
[13:21] PeterThoeny: correct, it is up to the plugin author to decide
[13:21] SvenDowideit: otherwise you download ComentPlugin.tgz and have no idea what its for
[13:21] Soronthar: and sometimes, there is no way to support Cairo (if you need META handling in the plugin, for example)
[13:21] SvenDowideit: and no idea if its more revent than the CommentPlugi.zip sitting next to it
[13:21] Lavr: Yes. There can be new features added to a plugin that makes no sense in Dakar,
[13:21] SvenDowideit: (my excuse is that i use rest)
[13:21] Lavr: In Cairo sorry
[13:21] SvenDowideit: Dakar too, once twiki5 starts
[13:22] Lynnwood: So we include a section in Plugin topic to address compatibility?
[13:22] PeterThoeny: the plugin topic already has a "plugin info" table that lists the supported twiki version
[13:22] Lynnwood: OK
[13:22] SvenDowideit: yes, but funnily enough
[13:22] PeterThoeny: can be go back to the core question
[13:22] SvenDowideit: i don't have the topic when i have a list of tgz's
[13:22] Lynnwood: Again, I ask: what is critical to resolve prior to Dakar release?
[13:22] SvenDowideit: and want to use the right one for the install i am working on today
[13:23] Lavr: It is important that we make sure the Cairo working version is not lost when updating a plugin that worked well in Cairo.
[13:23] PeterThoeny: there are many plugins in develop branch that should be posted in plugisn web
[13:23] PeterThoeny: question is how
[13:23] CDot: Lynnwood: we have to resolve where we put Dakar-only plugins
[13:23] CDot: that is the only issue
[13:23] Soronthar: If the question is how to publish plugins for Dakar and Cairo in the same web, I think it's critical.
[13:23] Lynnwood: Thanks CDot.
[13:23] SvenDowideit: PeterThoeny, i would suggest that you don't
[13:23] SvenDowideit: that it is up to the plugin author to do what they want to do
[13:23] Soronthar: And... a Plugins web/subweb per release?
[13:23] CDot: the only reason I didn;t update plugins on twikiorg was because I wanted the plugin authors to be happy with the changes I had made
[13:24] Soronthar: all cairo plugins in one place, all dakar in the other, common ones are duplicated?
[13:24] CDot: it is *not* my responsibility to reelease their plugins, basically
[13:24] PeterThoeny: crawford: if you separate out the dakar plugins you create a "fork" i would like to avoid
[13:24] SvenDowideit: every release _is_a fork
[13:24] PeterThoeny: better to have just one plugin topic on twiki.org and one download link!
[13:24] CDot: since most of the plugins in the release are not *my* plugins, I didn;t update them on twiki.org.
[13:24] CDot: PeterThoeny: not a fork; a branch
[13:24] Lavr: I would NOT recomment to split the plugins web. We just need a naming convension and maybe update the form
[13:24] Wohali: I agree with Sven
[13:24] SvenDowideit: PeterThoeny, i'm sorry, but i feel that is unrealistic
[13:24] Wohali: well, yeah, a branch
[13:24] Soronthar: PeterThoeny: I own XpTrackerPlugin. Answer me as a Plugin developer: What Should I do?
[13:24] CDot: and as I keep telling you, it is *inevitable*
[13:25] SvenDowideit: and thus its better to put release numbers into the filename
[13:25] PeterThoeny: crawford: no, not like that
[13:25] Soronthar: where should I put my new version given that I don't want/can't add the new features to the Cairo version?
[13:25] Lavr: I think 99.9 plugin developers are happy that someone fixed their plugins. I would not be worried about that
[13:25] PeterThoeny: soronthar: what i do for my plugins: make sure they run on cairo and dakar and publish just one version :-)
[13:26] PeterThoeny: is simple for admins, but more work for me
[13:26] SvenDowideit: yes, but expecting others to do so is not realistic
[13:26] Lynnwood: It seems to me that adding a release number to plugin (or some other way to distinguish from Cairo version) is less work at this point than creating/maintaining additional webs.
[13:26] CDot: PeterThoeny: more work for *me*, you mean ;-)
[13:26] SvenDowideit: as one reason twiki's plugins are successful is that its a no brainer to make one
[13:26] PeterThoeny: because I have to update the plugin topic on cairo, copy over to dakar, test, checkin and publish
[13:26] Soronthar: XpTrackerPlugin just can't run on Cairo with the new features. Because: a) it uses the new META handling  b) it uses the direct save link c) it uses rest
[13:26] SvenDowideit: we don't need addition webs if we add release numbers to the tgz
[13:27] Soronthar: it does exactly the same thing as the old one, but faster.
[13:27] SvenDowideit: and have more than one where needed
[13:27] CDot: SvenDowideit: we do *not* need release numbers on the tgz's (yet)
[13:27] Lynnwood: I agree with Sven - particular for short-term.
[13:27] SvenDowideit: i think we do
[13:27] CDot: all we need to do is annotate the topic
[13:27] *** AndreaSterbini has joined #twiki_dakar.
[13:27] AndreaSterbini: Hi there!
[13:27] SvenDowideit: when there is a cario plugin and a dakar one
[13:27] Lynnwood: CDot - how then would you distinguish the plugin versions?
[13:27] CDot: "for Cairo, use X; for Dakar, use Y"
[13:27] SvenDowideit: you need different names
[13:27] SvenDowideit: and also
[13:27] CDot: no
[13:27] PeterThoeny: rafael: that is up to you, if you decide the plugin only runs on dakar it is stated as such in the plugin info table
[13:28] SvenDowideit: i like to download them all to the same dir
[13:28] CDot: attachments are revision controlled
[13:28] SvenDowideit: for archival purps
[13:28] Soronthar: different "revisions"?
[13:28] CDot: yes
[13:28] SvenDowideit: but users don't download the revision file
[13:28] PeterThoeny: rafael: add also a link to download a previous version that works with cairo
[13:28] CDot: so what
[13:28] Wohali: Hello Andrea, welcome to the insanity over argument.
[13:28] CDot: they follow a link
[13:28] AndreaSterbini: I've just dropped by to say hallo to everybody
[13:28] Soronthar: So, I think the proposal is to put a link to the latest revision that work for Cairo
[13:28] SvenDowideit: morning AndreaSterbini :)
[13:28] AndreaSterbini: and best wishes for Dakar
[13:29] CDot: for Cairo, use %ATTACHURL%/XxPlugin?rev=1.1
[13:29] Wohali: lynnwood: I think you'd have to name plugins the same as you name the releases.
[13:29] SvenDowideit: AndreaSterbini, do you still use twiki
[13:29] SvenDowideit: ?
[13:29] CDot: AndreaSterbini: you landed in the middle of (another) firefight
[13:29] AndreaSterbini: Yes
[13:29] QBFreak: cdot: as a user I would find that confusing at best
[13:29] PeterThoeny: hi andrea!
[13:29] Soronthar: now, how can I have a "maintenan release" on my Cairo-specific plugin?
[13:29] AndreaSterbini: Ciao Peter!
[13:29] QBFreak: and Soronthar has a good point
[13:29] SvenDowideit: cool :) i thought you'd abandoned us :)
[13:29] Soronthar: I think I better put my "needs" in the topic
[13:30] AndreaSterbini: I have no more time to code ugly plugins ... :)
[13:30] SvenDowideit: grin
[13:30] * Lynnwood is trying to tease out specific proposals from preceding discussion...
[13:30] SvenDowideit: you should see what colas thinks of the uglies
[13:30] Lavr: I would keep TWO attachments on the plugin topic. One is the frozen and probably never again maintained Cairo plugin and the Dakar plugin. If people want to maintain both they probably make a version that is compatible with both Cairo and Dakar.
[13:30] PeterThoeny: so far, it looks like all we can do is come up with recommended actions for plugin authors
[13:31] Wohali: soronthar:  ferge from head
[13:31] Wohali: er, merge
[13:31] CDot: Lavr: best idea yet
[13:31] SteffenPoulsen: If we look at a form in a plugin topic, there's things like "TestedOnTWiki", "TestedOnOS", "ShouldRunOnOS" - not to mention the "Plugin Info". These things are meant to support ONE "HEAD" branch - where should meta data for dakar vs cairo go in the new version?
[13:31] Wohali: I think there's too much to settle here.  Someone take ownership of this.
[13:31] Wohali: Someone who knows the details.  Someone who writes plugins.
[13:31] Soronthar: Whohali: My point is not at the repository level, is at the twiki.org level.
[13:31] * Wohali votes for Soronthar
[13:31] * Wohali nods
[13:32] Lynnwood: Good suggestion Wohali. what do you say Soronthar/
[13:32] Lynnwood: ?
[13:32] AndreaSterbini: tell me ... 
[13:32] Soronthar: What you want me to do?
[13:32] * terceiro has to go
[13:33] PeterThoeny: andrea: we are talking about (Link: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/HandlingCairoDakarPluginDifferences)http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/HandlingCairoDakarPluginDifferences
[13:33] Lavr: I see it from the users view. You arrive to the plugin web - you have a Cairo installation - what do you do? Two zip files OR a dual-compatible one is what is most user friendly.
[13:33] CDot: AndreaSterbini: you no longer have to code ugly plugins. Dakar ets you code *beautiful* plugins. ;-)
[13:34] OliverKrueger: :-)
[13:34] SvenDowideit: OR one file, with it being unclear what version it is for
[13:34] Lynnwood: Soronthar - requesting that you review this discussion on plugins and suggest a method to track the two plugin versions on twiki.org.
[13:34] SteffenPoulsen: bye terceiro, see you around
[13:34] PeterThoeny: remommondation to plugin author: "to make it easy for the admins, please try to keep tour plugin compatible with cairo and dakar. Here are the recommended actions..."
[13:34] Lynnwood: bye terceiro - thanks!
[13:34] Lavr: Sven. If a plugin is stranded at Cairo - or started at Dakar then naturally there is only one.
[13:34] AndreaSterbini: I see ... I have the same problem .... no time to fix my stuff but the main code goes on and becomes so beautiful ...
[13:35] PeterThoeny: s/remommondation/recommendation/
[13:35] Lavr: Yes Peter. That sounds right..
[13:35] Soronthar: I writed down my "need" in the topic: (Link: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/HandlingCairoDakarPluginDifferences)http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/HandlingCairoDakarPluginDifferences
[13:35] AndreaSterbini: ... i never thought OOP would land in TWiki ... ;-)
[13:35] CDot: AndreaSterbini: it didn't. It crashed. ;-)
[13:36] PeterThoeny: ok, thanks rafael
[13:36] Soronthar: lol
[13:36] AndreaSterbini: What if you keep a double Plugin system ? is it impossible?
[13:36] Lavr: Raf. What I suggested will support all that.
[13:36] Soronthar: Lavr: yep, I know.
[13:36] AndreaSterbini: (I'm not up to date with the current devel)
[13:37] QBFreak: I'm not familiar with the plugin system, but would a Cairo-plugin plugin work?
[13:37] Lavr: I think a duplicated plugins web will cost too much to both create and maintain. The Cairo plugin will turn to compost in 6-9 months
[13:37] CDot: AndreaSterbini: we still support the old API, though it is being badly stretched now.
[13:37] PeterThoeny: is anyone stepping in to write a recommended steps for plugin authors, with goal to make it easy for admins?
[13:37] Lynnwood: Anyone willing to take this discussion to next level (off-line) and develop a proposal before next meeting?
[13:37] Soronthar: So, IMO, it either multiple files per topic, or multiple plugin webs.
[13:37] CDot: yes
[13:37] Lynnwood: y - so it would seem.
[13:38] SvenDowideit: my suggestion is that we recomend using build.pl to publish to the plugin topic, with version numbers
[13:38] Lynnwood: sounds like good near-term solution.
[13:38] PeterThoeny: no, multiple downloads on twiki.org is exactly what i'd like to avoid - in interest of kiss
[13:38] CDot: nah. I don;t want to change more code.
[13:38] CDot: PeterThoeny: face facts; you *can't* avoid it
[13:38] Soronthar: kiss is related to the simplest thing that *should* work.
[13:39] PeterThoeny: yes you can if you plan
[13:39] CDot: plan for the cooperation of all plugin authors?
[13:39] SvenDowideit: kiss is great, but i think unrealistic of many plugins
[13:39] Soronthar: you can't unless you can *force* plugins authors
[13:39] Lynnwood: Peter - how can we avoid that without _forcing_ plugin authors to maintain dual compatibility?
[13:39] SvenDowideit: if you want to reduce the number of plugins, you can demand alot
[13:39] Soronthar: Which is not always possible, BTW.
[13:39] PeterThoeny: for those plugin authors who do not care, it will be just dakar versions, which is fine
[13:40] Lavr: We have many plugins that composted at Beijing level and never worked on Cairo. The same will happen again with Cairo plugins. Plugins authors come and go and have very different skill levels.
[13:40] Soronthar: PeterThoeny: And for those plugin authors who *can't*?
[13:40] SteffenPoulsen: How about having just an extra line in the "Plugin Info" named "Compatibility versions" where authors could list Cairo and Beijing versions?
[13:40] Lynnwood: Peter - are you suggesting one download with appropriate disclaimers in topic?
[13:41] AndreaSterbini: sorry guys, my irc comes and goes ... 
[13:41] PeterThoeny: steffen: good suggestion
[13:41] SvenDowideit: AndreaSterbini, see you around :)
[13:41] Soronthar: In my case, I'll need to upload two zips anyway.
[13:42] SteffenPoulsen: else we'll have 1 way of doing it pr. plugin author .. we can appeal to their good sense of practise for supporting multiple version, but we can't expect them too
[13:42] Lavr: People may have a Cairo that are happy about and want to install a plugin which was available for Cairo and is not upgraded for Dakar but not backwards compatible. It is important that they can still download the Cairo version and be happy with it.
[13:42] PeterThoeny: lynnwood: the plugin info table makes it already clear for what twiki version the plugin is
[13:42] Soronthar: one with fixes for the Cairo one, one for the Dakar one.
[13:42] Lynnwood: So - no changed needed to accomodate Steffen's proposal?
[13:42] PeterThoeny: lavr: they can lick on the "manage" link to get earlier zip versions
[13:42] *** AndreaSterbini has left #twiki_dakar.
[13:43] * Wohali licks a link
[13:43] Lavr: How will they know which version?
[13:43] Wohali: hm, tastes like 9V batteries.
[13:43] Soronthar: hmm... i'm starting to feel ignored.
[13:43] SvenDowideit: and 'thats' easy? and well known to new admins?
[13:43] PeterThoeny: it looks like all is needed is good documentation for plugin authors
[13:43] PeterThoeny: dakar release is not dependent on this doc
[13:43] Soronthar: I have to release the plugin for two (2) (II) branches at the same time
[13:43] CDot: Soronthar: I'm listening to you; but there's a way to do what you want within this framework.
[13:43] Soronthar: how can I do that with only ONE (1) (I) zip?
[13:43] Lynnwood: Soronthar is noting that he _needs_ to have two attachments on his plugin topic.
[13:44] CDot: I will also be having multiple attachments, as I remove Cairo compatibility code from my plugins over the next few months.
[13:44] * Soronthar realizes what CDot pretends
[13:44] Lavr: What is needed at release of Dakar is that plugins on SVN that are updated and not part of the distribution are available from the plugins web in the updated version. People will not download them fro SVN.
[13:45] CDot: correct
[13:45] PeterThoeny: yes
[13:45] Soronthar: using the "manage" stuff.... revision 1 is for Cairo, revision 2 is for Dakar, revision 3 is bugfixes for Cairo, revision 4 is bugfixes for Dakar?
[13:45] Lynnwood: so that needs to be added to "to do" list.
[13:45] Lynnwood: volunteers to help with that effort?
[13:45] CDot: taht can be done thus: foreach $p in *; do; perl build.pl upload; done
[13:45] CDot: I added build.pl's to every plugin
[13:45] * OliverKrueger thinks about downloading installer_files, which downloads the appropriate version afterwards... ;)
[13:46] Lynnwood: thanks for that info CDot. (and the work!!)
[13:46] CDot: I expected this.
[13:46] PeterThoeny: anyone volunteering to write the doc for plugin authors?
[13:46] SvenDowideit: i thought CDot had already written it 
[13:47] CDot: did I?
[13:47] Wohali: evil, cdot uses cshell!  *shudder*
[13:47] SteffenPoulsen: SvenDowideit: Link?
[13:47] CDot: Wohali: nah, bash
[13:47] Lynnwood: it would probably only be some comments added to existing topic?
[13:47] SvenDowideit: dunno - i thought i followed some distructions once
[13:47] Wohali: foreach == csh
[13:47] CDot: I just got perl and sh confused
[13:47] Wohali: ah ok :)
[13:47] Wohali: was gonna point you to (Link: http://www.faqs.org/faqs/unix-faq/shell/csh-whynot/)http://www.faqs.org/faqs/unix-faq/shell/csh-whynot/
[13:48] * CDot used csh of Solaris for many, many, many years, and will never go back
[13:48] Wohali: ditto
[13:48] SteffenPoulsen: PeterThoeny: No volounteers at present I guess. Might look differently once 4.0.0 has left the building
[13:48] Lynnwood: Any other comments on the Plugin question?
[13:49] Lynnwood: At least let's add this to the doc needs.
[13:50] Lynnwood: Any objections to moving to " Handling registration/passwords/e-mail addresses:
[13:50] PeterThoeny: before we go to the next item can we make a 5 min break?
[13:50] Lynnwood: ?
[13:50] SvenDowideit: slack :)
[13:50] Lynnwood: I can only continue a few more minutes myself.
[13:50] Lynnwood: We've been at it for 2 hours.
[13:50] SteffenPoulsen: let's gather again :00?
[13:50] SvenDowideit: i've only been up for that long :)
[13:51] Lynnwood: :-)
[13:51] Soronthar: i'll be leaving in 10min.
[13:51] PeterThoeny: ok, lets gather again at the full hour
[13:51] Lavr: I can stay
[13:51] Lynnwood: I check and see how much longer I can stay on...
[13:52] Soronthar: see you all, then. I'll keep this windows open so it logs everything (or so I hope)
[13:52] Lynnwood: bye and thanks Soronthar!
[13:52] SteffenPoulsen: cya
[13:52] SteffenPoulsen: :-)
[13:53] PeterThoeny: lynnwood: can can continue in the facilitator role once you sign off
[13:54] PeterThoeny: as always thanks for your help! (and stick around as long as you can)
[13:56] Lynnwood: I can stay on for a few more minutes - until I get a call back from someone.
[13:56] Lynnwood: thanks Peter!
[13:59] Lynnwood: OK - top of the hour!
[14:00] Lavr: Ready
[14:00] Lynnwood: ---+  Handling registration/passwords/e-mail addresses
[14:00] Lynnwood: Once again on this item: what is critical to resolve before Dakar release?
[14:00] Lavr: YES
[14:00] Lavr: Dakar is broken right now
[14:01] PeterThoeny: it is critical
[14:01] Lynnwood: OK.
[14:01] PeterThoeny: two conflicting interests: intranet and internet
[14:01] Lavr: All email related features do not work unless you use .htpasswd authentication.
[14:01] CDot: Lavr: how is it broken?
[14:01] Lavr: You cannot store your email.
[14:01] Lavr: It is gone from the form.
[14:02] CDot: yep. That's under control.
[14:02] Lavr: It is fixed? Or you will?
[14:02] CDot: will. RSN.
[14:03] Lavr: A TLA I do not know (yet)
[14:03] CDot: sorry. Reall Soon Now
[14:03] SteffenPoulsen: cannot store it? Impossible to paste it to the user topic, Cairo style, or? .. oh well, resolution is on its way :-)
[14:03] Lavr: OK. I also had the impression after todays chat that we were close to a solution
[14:03] CDot: yep
[14:03] Lavr: Let me wrap it up briefly
[14:03] PeterThoeny: i would like to thank crawford for jumping on the user home page lockdown issue!
[14:04] Lynnwood: CDot - your solution addresses the expressed concerns (in the topic)?
[14:04] CDot: which topic? the bug report?
[14:04] Lavr: We assume two things...
[14:04] Lynnwood: yes and EmailAddressStorageAndDisplayDiscussion
[14:04] Lavr: 1. If you are on the public internet you most likely use Apache type authentication.
[14:05] PeterThoeny: (Link: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/EmailAddressStorageAndDisplayDiscussion)http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/EmailAddressStorageAndDisplayDiscussion
[14:05] CDot: (note: very many users on intranets also use .htpasswd; but that's beside the point)
[14:05] Lavr: 1a and you do not want passwords displayed.
[14:05] Lavr: 2. On intranets you WILL want the password displayed.
[14:06] Lavr: 2a and you will often use a different authentication that does not allow storing email address
[14:06] Lavr: So we need to....
[14:06] CDot: was there something wrong with my summary on (Link: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/EmailAddressStorageAndDisplayDiscussion?)http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/EmailAddressStorageAndDisplayDiscussion?
[14:06] PeterThoeny: there is also a: 1.b. you are on internet and want e-mail displayed
[14:06] Lavr: 1. Add the email field again to the user topic form.
[14:07] Lavr: 2. Make a good criteria for when the email address you enter is added to the user topic.
[14:07] Lavr: 2a when it is not entered, you can add it manually afterwards if you want it displayed.
[14:07] Lavr: DO we agree so far?
[14:08] Lynnwood: please speak up if you want to weigh in on this issue.
[14:08] CDot: I thought I already did, in (Link: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/EmailAddressStorageAndDisplayDiscussion)http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/EmailAddressStorageAndDisplayDiscussion
[14:08] SteffenPoulsen: 2b if you choose to add it, changeemailaddress should update it automatically (Wohalis request)
[14:09] Lynnwood: It appears that CDot stands ready to implement his proposal. 
[14:09] Lynnwood: Is there more feedback for him that's needed/
[14:09] CDot: note: there is one issue you have not addressed.
[14:09] Lavr: The way I see it - the discussion is the criteria for when the registration code copies the email address to the user topic
[14:09] CDot: because changing email requires a password, i dering ChangeEmailAddress from ChangePassword
[14:09] CDot: ^dering^derived
[14:10] CDot: thus ChangeEmail requires a valid password

[14:10] CDot: if you us a password manager, that is no problem
[14:10] CDot: but if you use apache auth, there is no way to check the password
[14:11] CDot: except by protecting the register script, which is not optimal for other reasons
[14:11] Lavr: But if no password manager means no hidden password changing password means editing your user topic
[14:11] Lavr: Changeing email I mean 
[14:11] Lavr: Grrr.
[14:11] CDot: changing password is a nop
[14:11] CDot: yes, that's right
[14:12] CDot: my point is that if you use apache auth, and no password manager, there is no way to *protect* the email
[14:12] CDot: anyone can change it via the changeemailaddress mechanism
[14:12] Lavr: So one criteria for adding email address to user topic can be - no password manager used.
[14:13] CDot: you are missing the point, I think
[14:13] Lavr: The changeemailaddress will then have no effect anyway.
[14:13] CDot: the whole point of this was to protect the email address from unwelcome changes
[14:13] SteffenPoulsen: CDot: pseudo-security: DENYTOPICVIEW (TWikiGuest), only change own e-mail address?
[14:13] CDot: but if you don;t have a password manager, then we cannot give any protection
[14:13] Lavr: Yes. but if you choose to use no password manager on the wild internet - you ask for trouble in the first place.
[14:13] CDot: SteffenPoulsen: yes, we are back to the old scenario
[14:14] CDot: Lavr: yes. I am just trying to make it clear
[14:14] CDot: I am advising everyone to implement password manager for their auth systems
[14:14] CDot: as without it, TWiki is inherently insecure
[14:14] Lavr: The ALLOWTOPICCHANGE is then the only protection.
[14:14] CDot: right; you understand.
[14:15] SvenDowideit: CDot, there's a problem with that i fear
[14:15] CDot: only one? good
[14:15] SteffenPoulsen: =]
[14:15] SvenDowideit: as the password system i'm working on also provides username
[14:15] SvenDowideit: and a coupla other things, and twiki isn't ready for that
[14:15] CDot: randomly generated?
[14:16] SvenDowideit: essentially :)
[14:16] CDot: yeah, what I have done is a hack; better than nothing, but still needs work.,
[14:16] SvenDowideit: i'm wanting to use identities from another system
[14:16] CDot: I know that.
[14:16] SvenDowideit: and thus userlist and groups are not defined in twiki at all
[14:16] CDot: let's take that discussion off line
[14:16] SvenDowideit: but this is functionality that won't be ready for dakar
[14:16] SvenDowideit: y
[14:17] Lynnwood: Any additional stuff to discuss on this item?
[14:17] Lavr: I think the Internet side with .htpasswd is pretty well covered now. We just need to get the email back for the typical corporate user and the simple way is the good old user topic way.
[14:17] Lavr: Lynnwood. the decisions ....
[14:18] Lavr: 1. Agree to put email field back on Userform
[14:18] PeterThoeny: so, no change for sites that do not use .htpasswd, right?
[14:18] Lavr: 2. Agree a criteria when registration copies email address to the user topic.
[14:19] CDot: Lavr: no, I can't hande a form entry
[14:19] CDot: it will be in the topic body
[14:19] Wohali: cdot: LDAP totally confuses me for EmailAddressStorageAndDisplayDiscussion
[14:19] SteffenPoulsen: Lavr: 1.: problem is syncing user topic email address with email address in .htpasswd
[14:19] CDot: Wohali: me too ;-)
[14:19] Wohali: iow, if you don't use the .htpasswd backend your entire proposal breaks down
[14:20] CDot: if you don;t implement a password manager, you mean
[14:20] CDot: in that case it falls back on the "old" behaviour
[14:20] Lavr: No. Many users may want a one visible email address (a disposible one) and the secret one. Most will leave it empty.
[14:20] CDot: slave driver
[14:20] CDot: (literally, in this case >:-) )
[14:20] SteffenPoulsen: 2. Criteria could just be a toggle on the user registration form "Display my e-mail in my home topic" and a default setting for this in TWiki.cfg
[14:20] Wohali: LDAP I always disable password manager and use mod_auth_ldap
[14:20] Wohali: (apache)
[14:21] CDot: SteffenPoulsen: lets not make this any more complicated than it has to be
[14:21] Lavr: In the NON- htpasswd case the email address MUST be copied.
[14:21] SteffenPoulsen: Lavr: 1. Wohali submitted a bug report on this, needs to be the same (?) Wohali, no longer a demand?
[14:21] CDot: it is in hand
[14:21] Lavr: If people choose the wrong thing all the notify features will lack email address.
[14:21] Wohali: which bug?
[14:22] Wohali: I don't like CDot's solution, except that he's willing to implement something
[14:22] Wohali: mostly because none of my installs use .htpasswd
[14:22] Wohali: meaning it's all broken for me
[14:22] SteffenPoulsen: Wohali: (Link: http://develop.twiki.org/~develop/cgi-bin/view/Bugs/Item1473)http://develop.twiki.org/~develop/cgi-bin/view/Bugs/Item1473
[14:22] Lavr: The "Wohali bug" was that people will be confused about the two email addresses.
[14:23] Wohali: I'm find with the UserPage not being there
[14:23] Lavr: To make people less confused the best I can come up with in Dakar release date scope is to write "hidden" or similar in the field.
[14:23] Wohali: er, with the email addy not being displayed on the UserPage
[14:23] Wohali: but it is stupid to have an address there AND have one in .htpasswd
[14:23] CDot: two email addresses?
[14:23] Wohali: 2 email addresses IS confusing!
[14:23] CDot: there will be only one
[14:23] Wohali: one on UserPage, one in .htpasswd
[14:23] CDot: no
[14:23] Wohali: see Item1473
[14:23] CDot: either-or
[14:23] CDot: no
[14:23] CDot: bug
[14:23] CDot: going away
[14:23] Wohali: then reopen and fix ;)
[14:23] CDot: ye sboss
[14:24] Lavr: Can you make either or solution CDot?
[14:24] CDot: yes
[14:24] Wohali: now, you see, if yuo were my mate, you'd say "yes dear."
[14:24] CDot: just can't make it switch *between* them easily
[14:25] CDot: i.e. once a mail is in user topic, and you switch to ,htpasswd, it will use htpasswd mail only. 
[14:25] Lavr: And the visible email address will go away?
[14:25] CDot: if you then switch *back* it will use *old* email in user topic
[14:25] CDot: no, it will remain
[14:25] Lavr: So TWO email addresses. Which I think we have to live with.
[14:25] CDot: I can only *add* and *change* emails in user topic; never delete them
[14:26] CDot: you should *not* be switching between password managers!
[14:26] Lavr: Agree.
[14:26] Wohali: agreed.
[14:26] Wohali: I have to run gentlemen.
[14:26] Wohali: it's been real
[14:26] *** Wohali has left #twiki_dakar.
[14:27] Lynnwood: I'm sorry - I lost track on this discussion.
[14:27] SteffenPoulsen: see you later, Wohali
[14:27] Lynnwood: Lavrs make good effort to sumarize decisions but got lost in discussion.
[14:27] PeterThoeny: me too, what action items?
[14:27] Lavr: So it sounds to me that next step is to see CDots implementation and test it.
[14:27] Lynnwood: Timeframe?
[14:28] CDot: Lynnwood: it's a bugfix. It'll be fixed when I have time to fix it
[14:28] Lynnwood: OK. will that be in time for testing by Lavr?
[14:28] CDot: yes. He understands how I work.
[14:28] Lavr: It will take 1-2 hours to test. And I will test same day it is available.
[14:29] Lynnwood: thanks
[14:29] CDot: :-)
[14:29] PeterThoeny: cool!
[14:29] Lynnwood: OK, if folks could scan the Bug items listed on the meeting topic to see which we need to address.
[14:29] Lynnwood: i.e. haven't been addressed yet.
[14:30] Lynnwood: Item663 - addressed.
[14:30] Lynnwood: Item1322 - addressed
[14:31] Lavr: 1490 looks like a TWiki-4.0.1 to me.
[14:31] Lynnwood: Could someone knowledgeable about the email issue list which of the Bug items are encompassed by that. Seems like several are.
[14:31] PeterThoeny: a small change i'd like to do before release to avoid pollution of namespace and avoid deprecation process later
[14:32] CDot: 1490 is an enhancement, IMHO
[14:32] PeterThoeny: %EMAIL% was a quick hack to solve an urgent issue
[14:32] Lavr: Risky one week before release.
[14:32] CDot: no need to deprecate; can just * Set EMAILS = %USERINFO{....
[14:32] CDot: I don;t want to risk poor design of USERINFO
[14:32] PeterThoeny: %USERINFO{}% is more generic and same functionality
[14:33] Lavr: I doubt anyone question the feature. It is the timing.
[14:33] SteffenPoulsen: a lot of work to change this?
[14:33] PeterThoeny: no, very small change
[14:33] Lavr: Risk.
[14:33] PeterThoeny: small
[14:33] CDot: well, I don;t think it's urgent, IMHO. But if it appears, and has testcases, I won;t revert it
[14:33] SvenDowideit: risk
[14:33] SvenDowideit: 3 risk, 1 small
[14:34] Lavr: I can wait till 5th of Feb. It is YOUR release party Peter :-)
[14:34] PeterThoeny: no it is everyone's (up to you to organize :-) )
[14:35] PeterThoeny: i think we discussed 1490
[14:35] Lavr: Yeah. Maybe Steffen and I should meet for a beer.
[14:35] PeterThoeny: if someone acts it's done, else not (confucius)
[14:35] Lynnwood: so: done on 1490?
[14:35] SteffenPoulsen: .. well, let's see then .. perhaps someone might have mercy on it .. I wish I'd have a clue to what is needed
[14:36] Lynnwood: How about Item1053?
[14:36] Lynnwood: "Multiple errors in statistics cgi"
[14:36] CDot: SteffenPoulsen: impl of spec, testcases, scrape of all docs to replace instances of old. 3-4 hours work.
[14:36] PeterThoeny: ---++ Bugs:Item1053 - Multiple errors in statistics cgi
[14:36] SteffenPoulsen: CDot: I'll look into it, might give it a shot
[14:37] Lynnwood: Can anyone add to what's in topic.
[14:37] CDot: yes
[14:37] Lynnwood: Or any request for help with it?
[14:37] CDot: this is an issue with TWikiAdminGroup
[14:37] CDot: when the cron script is run, it has to run as an admin user
[14:38] CDot: the only admin user we have is TWikiAdminGroup
[14:38] CDot: but "user" TWikiAdminGroup is not in "group" TWikiAdmingroup
[14:38] PeterThoeny: isn't this simply a documentation question?
[14:38] CDot: no
[14:38] PeterThoeny: "all scripts that manipulate topics need to run as the web server user"
[14:39] CDot: the webserver user is not a TWiki user
[14:39] CDot: it needs to be a *TWiki* super user to avoid access control violations
[14:39] PeterThoeny: oic, sure
[14:40] PeterThoeny: well, cairo had a twikiguest user for that
[14:40] CDot: we cannot make twikiguest part of TWikiAdminGroup
[14:40] CDot: there was another bug to that effect a long while ago
[14:40] PeterThoeny: wy is this needed to update the statstics topic?
[14:40] SteffenPoulsen: *g*
[14:41] CDot: because Main web is restricted for writing to TWikiAdminGroup
[14:41] CDot: when the cron job comes along, it has to have adequate rights to write the WebSTatistics topic
[14:42] CDot: so it has to be run by an admin user
[14:42] PeterThoeny: hmm, sounds like there should be an exception: the statistics script can update stats topics in any web, regardless of write access permissions
[14:42] QBFreak: does it have to run as a twiki user at all?
[14:42] CDot: yes; everything runs as a twiki user
[14:43] CDot: it is how access controls are done
[14:44] CDot: PeterThoeny: yes, perhaps. It is the way it is because I made only small changes since Cairo.
[14:44] QBFreak: wait, the Main web is restricted for writing?
[14:44] SteffenPoulsen: invent special user, "TWikiScriptRunner", add him to the TWikiAdminGroup
[14:44] CDot: if "$user" on line 373 is replaced with "undef" it should work.
[14:44] PeterThoeny: qbfreak: not in distro
[14:44] QBFreak: ah ok
[14:45] CDot: yes, that is the solution
[14:45] CDot: next
[14:45] PeterThoeny: ---++ Bugs:Item1464 - Rename TEMPLATEONLY variables
[14:46] PeterThoeny: i think that one goes together with
[14:46] PeterThoeny: Bugs:Item1484 - Remove SECTION in favor of START/STOPINCLUDE
[14:46] PeterThoeny: ---++ Bugs:Item1484 - Remove SECTION in favor of START/STOPINCLUDE
[14:46] *** OliverKrueger is now known as OliverKrueger|a.
[14:46] PeterThoeny: this is mainly a consitency question
[14:46] Lynnwood: that's peter - I was going to note that also.
[14:47] Lynnwood: I liked proposal in Item1484 - but can it safely be implemented for Dakar?
[14:47] CDot: I don;t care which it is (actually, I do; I prefer START..STOP) but I just want them to be consistent
[14:47] PeterThoeny: i would say, these two items do not hold up the release, just "real nice to have" changes
[14:47] Lynnwood: (even though it means I have to redo my own apps)
[14:48] Lynnwood: Seems like we're in agreement on most desireable solution, if time allowed?
[14:48] SteffenPoulsen: again, I don't know much work is required or how safe it is :-/ .. but it'd be really nice to have .. need to look these up each and every time I use them
[14:50] PeterThoeny: anyone volunteering to make 1484 change?
[14:50] PeterThoeny: time: small
[14:50] SvenDowideit: does this mean that 'nice to have' items have been marked as urgent/req?
[14:50] PeterThoeny: (i can help with docs)
[14:50] PeterThoeny: risk: small
[14:50] SvenDowideit: if so, please re-classify them
[14:50] CDot: whoever does it, please remember to update and run testcases
[14:51] PeterThoeny: but: existing beta dakar apps using this need to be changed
[14:51] SvenDowideit: so that those who are working on things focus on actually urgent things first?
[14:51] SteffenPoulsen: SvenDowideit: Nope, just means time / nescessesity trade off :-)
[14:51] SvenDowideit: and testing and risk
[14:52] PeterThoeny: 1464 depends on 1484, i think we can close 1464
[14:52] Lynnwood: As a Dakar app author that has used this feature extensively, i think it'd be nice to fix sooner than later.
[14:52] PeterThoeny: and leave 1484 as urgent
[14:52] PeterThoeny: well, fix now before release or leave it!
[14:52] Lavr: This is a bad one to defer. Either change now or never because these will quickly be used in TWiki apps
[14:53] Lynnwood: exactly
[14:53] PeterThoeny: that is the reason for "urgent"
[14:53] PeterThoeny: unless we want to live with the inconsistencies
[14:53] Lynnwood: Sorry folks - I have to leave. If I can, I'll return.
[14:53] PeterThoeny: ok, i volunteer to do the doc work
[14:54] PeterThoeny: who is doing the code change?
[14:54] PeterThoeny: i can also do the testcases
[14:54] * Lynnwood is leaving on irc so I can post the log later.
[14:54] SteffenPoulsen: CDot: I guess this is a (part :-)) community appeal?
[14:54] CDot: thanks Peter! I had a sarcatic comment about testcases loaded and ready to go, there ;-)
[14:54] * PeterThoeny waves, thanks lynnwood for the help
[14:54] SteffenPoulsen: see you around, Lynwood
[14:55] Lavr: Thanks Lynn
[14:56] PeterThoeny: ok, lets move on
[14:56] PeterThoeny: ---++ Bugs:Item1475 - Anyone can change guest email address
[14:56] CDot: discussed and cleared
[14:56] PeterThoeny: ---++ Bugs:Item1488 - TWikiRegistration? topic needs some quotes escaped to work
[14:56] *** Soronthar has signed off IRC ("Chatzilla 0.9.68.5 [Firefox 1.0.4/20050511]").
[14:56] Lavr: What did you conclude on 1475?
[14:56] Lavr: One line answer is OK
[14:56] CDot: Lavr: we talked on IRC this pm
[14:56] CDot: I added some notes
[14:56] SteffenPoulsen: "   * Will await new implementaion (bug fix) from CDot and test"
[14:57] SteffenPoulsen: (1475)
[14:57] SteffenPoulsen: 1488: At last somehting I can do - I'll commit that one :-)
[14:57] PeterThoeny: cool!
[14:57] * Lavr is happy I fixed a bug :-)
[14:58] PeterThoeny: ---++ Bugs:Item1485 - upgrade_emails.pl should assign admin email address per default
[14:58] SteffenPoulsen: Lavr: not bad, not bad :-)
[14:58] Lavr: 1485 was raised as a reminder to CDot. The issue and suggested fix was agreed.
[14:58] PeterThoeny: good
[14:58] CDot: yeah, that's a one-liner, simple fix, anyone can do it
[14:59] PeterThoeny: ---++ Bugs:Item1480 - Decide where to put official docs on TWiki.org that is missing in distro
[14:59] CDot: I commented on Codev
[14:59] PeterThoeny: (Link: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/WhereToPutOfficialDocsMissingInDistro)http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/WhereToPutOfficialDocsMissingInDistro
[15:00] PeterThoeny: this is an action item for me and lynnwood to finalize
[15:00] PeterThoeny: only the place and urls of key topics need to be decided before release
[15:01] PeterThoeny: i think we can handle this
[15:01] PeterThoeny: any question / suggestions on this?
[15:01] PeterThoeny: or, in interest of time: if you have add to codev topic!
[15:01] PeterThoeny: ---++ Bugs:Item1471 - "Note to Administrator" on ChangeEmailAddress?? must be documented
[15:02] CDot: I didn;t mean a fresh web *per release*
[15:02] Lavr: That was the submarine thing
[15:02] CDot: I meat a fresh web *for Documentation*
[15:02] PeterThoeny: oic
[15:02] PeterThoeny: on 1471, anyone volunteers on doc work?
[15:03] SteffenPoulsen: Yep, I will try to do that one
[15:03] PeterThoeny: cool!
[15:03] PeterThoeny: ---++ Bugs:Item1465 - No String freeze until English Grammar & spelling & proper names checked.
[15:03] PeterThoeny: is done now?
[15:04] PeterThoeny: oh, already discarded
[15:04] SteffenPoulsen: yep, I belive so
[15:04] PeterThoeny: ---++ Bugs:Item1420 - last translations update after string freeze for Dakar
[15:04] PeterThoeny: we also talked about 1420
[15:04] SteffenPoulsen: same thing, terceiro runs last .pot tonight, it is final - yep
[15:05] PeterThoeny: i think that is all on "urgent" and "requirement"
[15:05] SteffenPoulsen: pheeeew :-)
[15:05] PeterThoeny: any feedback / q's?
[15:05] PeterThoeny: or move on?
[15:06] PeterThoeny: does not seem like
[15:06] PeterThoeny: ---++  Other items that need to happen for release
[15:06] SteffenPoulsen: anyone not asleep on top of keyboard? *g*
[15:06] PeterThoeny: nothing to ask on my side
[15:06] PeterThoeny: quick update on press release
[15:06] PeterThoeny: is ready to go
[15:06] * terceiro is back
[15:06] PeterThoeny: we have a nice testimonial from a director of novell
[15:07] PeterThoeny: :-)
[15:07] SteffenPoulsen: whee!
[15:07] CDot: nothing from Google yet?
[15:07] SteffenPoulsen: sounds promising, noticed some novell registrations a while back, cool
[15:07] SvenDowideit: anything on server?
[15:07] PeterThoeny: anything else that need to be discussed that needs to happen before release?
[15:07] CDot: oh no - I forgot - can't have a testimonial from criminals.... ;-)
[15:07] SvenDowideit: as the bug system will be hit when we release
[15:08] PeterThoeny: google is a very sectretive company
[15:08] SteffenPoulsen: nope, nothing to add from here - print a t-shirt, folks! :-)
[15:08] CDot: PeterThoeny: even from the US govt!
[15:08] PeterThoeny: sven: no news on server
[15:08] CDot: oh, one more thing
[15:08] CDot: I put placeholder art in the TWiki web
[15:08] CDot: in the header bar
[15:08] CDot: it cannot remain, it is copyright
[15:09] CDot: (it was just a bit of fun)
[15:09] * ArthurClemens checks
[15:09] PeterThoeny: (Link: http://develop.twiki.org/~develop/pub/TWiki/WebPreferences/Dakar.gif)http://develop.twiki.org/~develop/pub/TWiki/WebPreferences/Dakar.gif
[15:09] SteffenPoulsen: CDot: *sniff* think of something equally creative, it was great :-)
[15:09] CDot: I have another image ready to roll
[15:09] PeterThoeny: i REALLY like it :-)
[15:09] CDot: yeah, that's why i shared it. But it's copyright, sadly.
[15:09] ArthurClemens: funny
[15:09] ArthurClemens: copyright who?
[15:09] SvenDowideit: unfortunatly its rolled out to anyone running off svn
[15:10] CDot: Michael Jackson, I think
[15:10] SvenDowideit: publicly
[15:10] PeterThoeny: i am wondering if this is an issue at all
[15:10] SvenDowideit: i just noticed i have it on home.org.au too
[15:10] ArthurClemens: its an insiders joke
[15:10] SvenDowideit: though i like it too
[15:10] CDot: I think that arguning with record companies is not somewhere I want to go
[15:10] ArthurClemens: one must know the robot
[15:10] SvenDowideit: correct
[15:10] PeterThoeny: it is hard to believe that we can get in trouble on this
[15:11] ArthurClemens: don't think so
[15:11] SvenDowideit: people have had trouble over lesser things
[15:11] SteffenPoulsen: CDot: Reveal the other image before we tear our hair :-)
[15:11] SvenDowideit: y, the suspense is killing me too
[15:11] CDot: SteffenPoulsen: it's a lot less inspiring; more mechanical
[15:11] SvenDowideit: as this is the first sniff of style from CDot i've seen in a while
[15:11] SvenDowideit: :)
[15:12] CDot: I will *not* accept style advice from a bleeding Australian!!!!!
[15:12] ArthurClemens: its vertically aligned, evenly...
[15:12] SvenDowideit: CDot, i should hope not
[15:12] SvenDowideit: i wouldn't either
[15:12] SvenDowideit: ooo, twiki logo with stubbies and thongs
[15:12] CDot: heh
[15:13] PeterThoeny: ok, anything else before release?
[15:13] SvenDowideit: i guess for next time
[15:13] SvenDowideit: what are we doing about the bugs system
[15:13] CDot: do you have an ETA for the last 7 docs?
[15:13] PeterThoeny: well, the code and doc look more stable now
[15:13] SvenDowideit: just adding a new category?
[15:13] PeterThoeny: i *think* i can devote more time to docs this week
[15:14] PeterThoeny: anyway, no choice but finish by the end of the week :O
[15:14] CDot: oh, and I will be on holiday from 28th through 9th Feb (arranging in Nov last year, when I thought we would release at XMas.)
[15:14] PeterThoeny: oh, that is important to know!
[15:14] PeterThoeny: who is going to build the final release package?
[15:14] CDot: anyone can
[15:14] CDot: Anton is pretty good at it
[15:15] CDot: anyone who can read, though, should be able to do it
[15:15] PeterThoeny: it is better to define *who* will do it
[15:15] CDot: get everything done before the 28th, and I will do it.
[15:16] PeterThoeny: sounds like a plan
[15:16] CDot: best if a couple of people practice, though
[15:16] PeterThoeny: oh, that means you will not be at next release meeting if we do it next monday
[15:16] CDot: just in case
[15:16] CDot: depends. i may be able to be there
[15:17] CDot: but not for long, i suspect
[15:17] PeterThoeny: ok
[15:17] PeterThoeny: well, is next monday good timing?
[15:17] PeterThoeny: or better earlier?
[15:17] CDot: for me? it makes no difference
[15:17] CDot: I just work off the top of the bugs list
[15:17] PeterThoeny: ok
[15:18] PeterThoeny: is anyone volunteering to do the builds while crawford is gone?
[15:19] PeterThoeny: ok, open then
[15:19] SteffenPoulsen: if Anton is good at it, let's "volounteer" him :-)
[15:19] CDot: Sven can do it; I'll persaude him
[15:19] SteffenPoulsen: ok, twi candidates already
[15:19] PeterThoeny: is sven still here?
[15:19] CDot: don;t think so
[15:19] SvenDowideit: i might try, but every time i do it, i find something that scares me
[15:20] SvenDowideit: lets assume i do :)
[15:20] PeterThoeny: very cool!
[15:20] SteffenPoulsen: - and upload limit is fixed in the meantime, no worries there :-)
[15:20] CDot: is 8Mb enough?
[15:20] SteffenPoulsen: great, Sven
[15:20] PeterThoeny: and now to the big question:
[15:20] SvenDowideit: upload limits don't matter to me
[15:20] CDot: the last zip scared the willies out of me
[15:20] PeterThoeny: ---++  Release Schedule
[15:20] SvenDowideit: i got root :)
[15:21] SteffenPoulsen: SvenDowideit: great
[15:21] PeterThoeny: can we do it by 01 feb 2006?
[15:21] PeterThoeny: can we?
[15:22] SvenDowideit: i was ready 01-Aug-2006
[15:22] SvenDowideit: for me this is already Edin*
[15:22] PeterThoeny: i ask serously because i need to know ahead of time
[15:22] terceiro: SvenDowideit: s/2005/2006/ ?
[15:22] terceiro: :)
[15:22] SvenDowideit: terceiro, y, that
[15:22] PeterThoeny: in the next day or so i need to send out the press release
[15:22] PeterThoeny: the dakar party will happen anyway
[15:22] terceiro: i think that we *need* to realise that there will be bugs, always
[15:23] PeterThoeny: the press release will announce twiki 4.0 or twiki 4.0 rc(x), depending where we stand
[15:23] CDot: PeterThoeny: I see no reason why not
[15:23] SvenDowideit: while i understand you have commitment issues, just doit
[15:23] CDot: all it takes is commitment
[15:23] SvenDowideit: make it 4.0 and move forward with confidence, even if its bravado
[15:24] Lavr: There are always bugs. It is the severity that counts. And besides the hi-jack issue (which turned out to be old) most issues now are in the lighter category.
[15:24] PeterThoeny: i see a difference here, i strive for releasing a product of very high quality
[15:25] PeterThoeny: yes, hopefully we will not be flooded with too many bugs
[15:26] PeterThoeny: so, is 01 feb 2006 a production release or an rc release?
[15:26] Lavr: If you look at bugs. My impression is - many doc bugs - many plugin bugs (especially WYSIWYG). Not many compatibility or instability bugs anymore.
[15:26] PeterThoeny: from my pov it looks like a production release
[15:26] CDot: it's production.
[15:26] PeterThoeny: any other voices?
[15:26] Lavr: Yes. Production.
[15:27] SteffenPoulsen: at the moment we're in a great flow of bug fixing, I think we should do it (release 4.0.0 production - also to keep up spirits, none the least :-))
[15:27] SvenDowideit: word man
[15:27] PeterThoeny: very cool!
[15:27] terceiro: great
[15:28] PeterThoeny: when is next meeting?
[15:28] SvenDowideit: can we have it at 10pm sydney time?
[15:28] PeterThoeny: how many hours later?
[15:28] CDot: what's that in real hours?
[15:29] SvenDowideit: or 1pm sydney time :)
[15:29] CDot: -11h?
[15:29] SvenDowideit: y
[15:29] SvenDowideit: :)
[15:29] CDot: 10pm == 9am GMT. Suits me!
[15:29] PeterThoeny: well, 7am is awefully early for sven
[15:29] PeterThoeny: can we start one hour later?
[15:29] SvenDowideit: i loose most of tuesday getting up for these meetings due to being shattered
[15:30] SvenDowideit: but i'd rather do that than loose people earlier in the meeting
[15:30] SvenDowideit: ie if we start 1 hour later, we loose Lynnwood one hour earlier
[15:31] PeterThoeny: is lynwoods other commitment on a regular schedule?
[15:31] SvenDowideit: seems to be from observations :)
[15:31] SvenDowideit: same thing for others that have left already
[15:31] PeterThoeny: i can ask him
[15:31] PeterThoeny: good point
[15:32] PeterThoeny: hmm, so keep same time?
[15:32] SvenDowideit: i think i'm the lone sucker in the middle really
[15:32] SvenDowideit: unless we can move by 12 hours...
[15:32] CDot: nah, your off one end
[15:32] QBFreak: sven: and start at 3am my time? :)
[15:32] SvenDowideit: ah, i'm off the plank
[15:32] Lavr: Same time is fine for me. +/- 1 hour will also work.
[15:32] SvenDowideit: QBFreak, sounds good
[15:33] SvenDowideit: you're away then anyway :)
[15:33] Lynnwood: just saw question to me - no my schedule is not regular. I can meet hour later - and will schedule more time next week.
[15:33] PeterThoeny: ok, lets shoot an email to twiki-dev and ask if one hour later is ok
[15:34] SvenDowideit: y, that would be cool
[15:34] Lavr: OK for me
[15:34] PeterThoeny: i think we are done with this meeting!
[15:34] PeterThoeny: anything else?
[15:34] SteffenPoulsen: RC1 goes out today?
[15:34] PeterThoeny: oh, yes
[15:34] SteffenPoulsen: or whenever most obvious short-range bugs are fixed?
[15:34] SteffenPoulsen: :-)
[15:34] Lavr: We need the email fix in!
[15:35] PeterThoeny: crawford, between beers, what is your verdict?
[15:35] SvenDowideit: CDot/ Lavr , can you emailwhen that fix is done
[15:35] SvenDowideit: and i'll do the RC withing 12 hours of that
[15:35] PeterThoeny: cool
[15:35] SvenDowideit: that way i get in a dry run before i attempt the release next week
[15:35] CDot: PeterThoeny: verdict of what?
[15:36] SvenDowideit: sanity?
[15:36] SvenDowideit: :)
[15:36] SvenDowideit: i've none here
[15:36] PeterThoeny: verdict when to release rc1
[15:36] CDot: I think we should be doing at least one build a day between now and next week
[15:36] PeterThoeny: but as we have seen, it's decided now
[15:36] CDot: just to pick up on problems early
[15:36] SvenDowideit: ok CDot i'll do that
[15:36] PeterThoeny: call them rc1, rc2 etc?
[15:36] CDot: alternate days; you do tomorrow
[15:36] SvenDowideit: do we want to call them things?
[15:37] CDot: no, just builds
[15:37] SvenDowideit: ah, ok
[15:37] CDot: we can name them rc's if you want
[15:37] PeterThoeny: but we still do rc1?
[15:37] PeterThoeny: i need this for pr
[15:37] SvenDowideit: in that case, you'll do a shake out build today?
[15:37] CDot: no time. Not worth it IMHO.
[15:37] CDot: SvenDowideit: "today" is -23 mins
[15:37] SvenDowideit: :)
[15:37] SvenDowideit: ok, same deal as before
[15:38] SvenDowideit: i'll do rc1 within 12 hours of Lavr being happy :)
[15:38] CDot: I don't thing we should confuse people witjh an RC1 for a few days
[15:38] SvenDowideit: mmm
[15:38] CDot: but I'm easy, I can be persuaded otherwise
[15:38] SvenDowideit: because?
[15:38] Lavr: An RC must have the email on user topics for the corporate sites. Otherwise we get gegative press
[15:38] CDot: just don;t want them to burn out
[15:39] CDot: Lavr: email on user topics is running here
[15:39] CDot: just need to finsih testing and check in
[15:39] Lavr: OK Cool.
[15:39] PeterThoeny: ok
[15:39] PeterThoeny: anything else?
[15:40] PeterThoeny: thanks everyone for holding out such a long time (again)
[15:40] CDot: BTW on performance
[15:40] Lavr: It is fun
[15:40] PeterThoeny: and special thanks to lynnwood for facilitation and steffen for the minutes!
[15:40] Lynnwood: ...he says to the few, the weary...
[15:40] CDot: MAIN =~ 54 athensmarks
[15:41] CDot: DEVELOP, default plugins, locale *off* =~ 53 Athensmarks
[15:41] CDot: DEVELOP, default plugins, locales on =~ 39 AThemsmarks
[15:41] CDot: recommend we ship with locales *off*
[15:41] SvenDowideit: nested webs off i presume?
[15:41] CDot: yes
[15:41] terceiro: CDot: locales are already off by default, right?
[15:42] SvenDowideit: though i use them, so they are still on in svn
[15:42] ArthurClemens: I call it quits, time for bed. I've been following this a bit in the background, but nothing much to add at this moment. See you later on #twiki.
[15:42] Lavr: I always test with locales off by the way.
[15:42] CDot: they were on; I had to turn them off, I think
[15:42] SvenDowideit: see you all :)
[15:42] *** ArthurClemens has left #twiki_dakar.
[15:42] CDot: ciao
[15:43] Lavr: By all
[15:43] SvenDowideit: :)
[15:43] PeterThoeny: bye all, and thanks again :-)
[15:43] CDot: me too; 'gnight
[15:43] Lavr: Good night
[15:43] *** CDot has left #twiki_dakar.
[15:44] SteffenPoulsen: night all - see you around
[15:44] *** SteffenPoulsen has left #twiki_dakar.
[15:45] *** Lavr has left #twiki_dakar.
[15:45] QBFreak: this is my cue to drop back to the land of the TWiki users :)
[15:46] *** QBFreak has left #twiki_dakar.