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-- Contributors: KoenMartens - 17 Feb 2008


FYI, I posted Rod's comment on PostgreSQL to the PostgreSQL advocacy list (i'm quite into PostgreSQL), and there are some interesting comments. Most of them have been in private replies, i'll try and include those comments in this topic. Here is the thread on said mailing list, for anyone who is interested:


-- KoenMartens - 16 Feb 2008

I added a clarifying note to the log. As stated the note was very brief and could easily be misunderstood (my apologies for not taking more detailed minutes). I am not sure what Koen tried to achieve by notifying the postgresql mailing list with this out of context stuff, and without first trying to clarify with the person who made the statement. (Rod is currently out of town.)

-- PeterThoeny - 16 Feb 2008

Peter, i was on the phone when Rod made the remark. I meant no harm by sharing it with the PostgreSQL folks. I'm involved with PostgreSQL as i am with TWiki. If i see something negative about TWiki somewhere, i'll share that with the TWiki community. If I see something negative about PostgreSQL i want to share that with the PostgreSQL community.

TWiki is more like PostgreSQL and less like MySQL wouldn't you agree? There is a lot of independent commercial activity surrounding TWiki, just like there is around PostgreSQL.

-- KoenMartens - 16 Feb 2008

Bingo. I think that exactly is Rod's point.

-- PeterThoeny - 17 Feb 2008

So let us learn from the PostgreSQL case! They have had quite some experience with the situation described, so I value any input they can give and anything we can learn from that eco-system.

It is a strength that there are so many companies involved with PostgreSQL. It is not a "failure". For example, my company recently had part in a migration at a large organisation away from a proprietary DBMS to PostgreSQL. They chose PostgreSQL because there are so many companies actively supporting it. MySQL wasn't even an option for them, technologically nor economically.

There were a number of European companies offering support, this was important for them. They weren't too keen on being dependant on a far-away US based company, which is why (ao) they rejected EnterpriseDB. They valued a local contact, someone they could visit or who could visit them on short notice.

I was under the impression that Rod's suggestion was that TWiki should become more like MySQL. With TWIKI.NET being the TWiki company, subcontracting work to external consultants. Perhaps Rod can elaborate on what he said about that himself?

(ps: why do all we all have to have this capitalised spelling? TWiki, PostgreSQL, MySQL... It's so awkward smile

(pps: the comment boxes on twiki.org are way too small!)

-- KoenMartens - 17 Feb 2008

I ask asked DirkRiehle to post the following at the postgresql mailing list on behalf of me, http://archives.postgresql.org/pgsql-advocacy/2008-02/msg00172.php :

Public statement by Peter Thoeny, TWiki.org founder, to the PostgreSQL community:

Dear PostgreSQL community,

Please accept my apologies on behalf of the TWiki community. I took notes during the meeting, and I am sorry I did not log all relevant pieces that have been said about PostgreSQL during the meeting.

Since Rod is out of town, let me try to state what Rod said at the meeting, to the best of my recollection:

"PostgreSQL has arguably the best open source RDBMS technology, but unfortunately they lost market share to companies with lesser technology. I consider the PostgreSQL business model a failure, because there is no leading company associated with it. This has been publicly stated by some PostgreSQL community members." He went on to say that successful models are open source communities with one driving company alongside them: MySQL, RedHat/Fedora, Zimbra, JBoss, etc.

I find it unfortunate that Koen is using words in the postgres mailing list like "bad advocacy by TWiki bigwig" without first clarifying things with the person involved. I am not sure what the intent of this e-mail was. It is too easy to take stuff out of context in an online medium.

Full disclosure: TWIKI.NET is working towards a win/win/win for the TWiki community, sponsoring companies and customers. Koen is in a small group of TWiki consultants who have not bought into this strategy.

My apologies again for the stir, kind regards,

-- PeterThoeny - 17 Feb 2008

This "small group of TWiki consultants" is called WikiRing. Its members are some of the most active contributors to TWiki, including its main contributor and technical leader on the TWiki-4.2 release, CDot. WikiRing never felt a need to explicitly state that they are committed to a win/win/win strategy, because that is so obvious, judging from its massive contributions to the TWikiCommunity and its high reputation among customers.

-- MichaelDaum - 18 Feb 2008

AARgh, god damn. Can you please stop this annoying he said this and he said that bullshit? It's like in primary school.

Stop blaming each other. "Koen is in a small group of TWiki consultants who have not bought into this strategy." - Peter, I do not understand why you started this again. Your clarifacations (till "Full disclosure") are needed and understable but the "Full disclosure" part just adds fuel to a discussion that should have ended weeks ago. Thanks for calm and thoughtful response Michael.

It is so damn annyoing to check out what happend in Codev just to read how members of the community blame eachother.

Quiet sad...

-- CarloSchulz - 18 Feb 2008

I hope that everyone will support the suggestion that we move all these topics to an archive when the issues are considered finished, and then let the grass grow back.

-- SvenDowideit - 18 Feb 2008

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